s/o: How much do you care about modesty?

[texasmama]

I'm the only one hating on porn, that I am aware of, so don't worry. :tongue_smilie:

 

Let me go on the record as against porn and accepting of masturbation.

 

My dh says that if we moved to Africa and lived in a cave with our children apart from society that our boys at some point would figure out how to whip the bishop. (Pardon my crudity, but I don't know if there are any real "rules of polite society" when one is discussing porn and teen masturbation.)

[justamouse]

 

They dont even need 40 minute showers.

 

Very true. ;)

[Perry]

 

They don't have to go hand in hand.:D

:lol::lol::lol:

[Mrs Mungo]

Why are you all hating on porn? Kilts are a form of porn.

 

And then we have this (it's okay to click unless you have extreme modesty concerns).

 

eta: only those with extremely strong google-fu should search for anything like that.

[Parrothead]

 

They dont even need 40 minute showers.

Sometimes they just need to go to sleep.

[texasmama]

Can you not separate these things?

 

I totally agree that replacing intimacy with a p*rn addiction can severely damage a marriage. Totally agree.

 

Just normal, run-of-the-mill, occasional masturbation? I disagree.

 

This is the position I take, as well.

[Barb_]

I think your children are very young.

 

Wait until your boys are taking 40 minute showers. They don't need porn, they just need some privacy.

 

 

QUOTE]

 

They dont even need 40 minute showers.

 

Or privacy, necessarily :lol: I'm hoping my son will get the hang of that privacy thing before too long.

[I.Dup.]

Okay you all are making me giggle a bit. :lol:

 

I don't know, I just don't see how boys sitting around masturbating can be a good thing. Obviously it's better than going out and having sex but I thought the issue was, that boys have more self control than we give them credit for (that's why we are so disgusted with that rebelution site, right?)

[LibraryLover]

That's great!

 

Unfortunately TONS of men get hooked on masturbating to porn, and that carries into their adult lives and their marriages (it's much easier to masturbate to porn than it is to engage with a real woman, or so I've heard) I guess I'm surprised to hear moms say they're fine with that.

 

 

I agree that porn is more to the point. I imagine there are some men who would rather not bother with the give/take of sex. It's one reason many men prefer to pay for sex. It's probably why brothels etc have always been so popular, even in ancient times. Also, 'good' women are not supposed to enjoy sex. A woman who is hot to do it might be seen as ' bad' by some men. A 'good' woman is not supposed to not be randy for ya

Edited July 18, 2011 by LibraryLover

[justamouse]

Sometimes they just need to go to sleep.

 

Exactly! It's like the special fairy came.

 

Please, I remember my boys as toddlers taking baths and being totally enamored of themselves. "I have this? And it's *attached!* *JOY* and look! It's happy too!...and I can play with it any time I want cause it's mine all mine..."

[Slartibartfast]

It is good for the prostate to keep the pipes clean.

[Mrs Mungo]

Okay you all are making me giggle a bit. :lol:

 

I don't know, I just don't see how boys sitting around masturbating can be a good thing. Obviously it's better than going out and having sex but I thought the issue was, that boys have more self control than we give them credit for (that's why we are so disgusted with that rebelution site, right?)

 

As someone whose husband is gone for months at a time? Even I don't have *that* much self-control. I get crabby. Other women get crabby. I have personally explained to women I know what they should order and the relatively clean sites that they can order from. They are much less crabby after that. And we're *adult women*.

[Parrothead]

Exactly! It's like the special fairy came.

 

Please, I remember my boys as toddlers taking baths and being totally enamored of themselves. "I have this? And it's *attached!* *JOY* and look! It's happy too!...and I can play with it any time I want cause it's mine all mine..."

I worked in day care when I was in college. One year I had a little girl who put herself to sleep at nap time enjoying herself and a little boy always in overalls because he found joy all day long. They were between 18 months and 3.

[I.Dup.]

. And we're *adult women*.

 

But adults who have been engaging and enjoying a sexual relationship is different than a teen who has not had sex yet, right?

[justamouse]

As someone who is husband is gone for months at a time? Even I don't have *that* much self-control. I get crabby. Other women get crabby. I have personally explained to women I know what they should order and the relatively clean sites that they can order from. They are much less crabby after that. And we're *adult women*.

 

 

 

 

*gasp!* You told! It's supposed to be the most well kept secret there is!

 

 

OK, I admit. I get crabby.

 

 

And now at the Hive 'being crabby' will never mean being crabby again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(and sometimes husbands even like it when you share your crabbiness with them)

[LibraryLover]

Okay you all are making me giggle a bit. :lol:

 

I don't know, I just don't see how boys sitting around masturbating can be a good thing. Obviously it's better than going out and having sex but I thought the issue was, that boys have more self control than we give them credit for (that's why we are so disgusted with that rebelution site, right?)

 

 

I think males can masturbate and still have lives. I see boys and men out and about in town...they seem perfectly fine. I think 100% of males and almost as many females masturbate/have masturbated. There comes a point when one needs a break. Even if one is 16.:auto:

Edited July 18, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Rosy]

We try to be reasonably modest. Is it for religious reasons? No more or less than anything else--we aim to glorify God in everything we do.

 

Our reasons for maintaining reasonable modesty are self-respect (you are worth more than the attention you draw to your body), respect for others (accentuating our private parts causes problems for people, whether or not it should), and because society defines people by how they are dressed. People think you're a slut if you dress slutty. Wearing dirty clothes sends the message that either I am gross or unable to maintain reasonable hygiene. (I'm not talking about wearing my painting clothes to the hardware store).

 

The key word in this is *reasonable*. In sports, people need to wear clothes that are appropriate to the sport. Someone who is "stumbled" by the sight of women in swimsuits do not need to go to the beach/pool. That said, I have told my daughter that if she forgets to bring her white undershirt to karate, she needs to break the rules and wear a colored t-shirt, even if she has to do push ups. Fortunately, she doesn't forget. :)

 

In my opinion, the ATI/Duggar definition of modesty draws attention to one's appearance, which is the very thing it is attempting not to do. Especially the swim dresses--those seem completely ridiculous to me, and I wonder if the boys surveyed in the Rebelution survey would take issue with even those.

 

Finally, I think it is important to teach girls to honor God with the way they dress, AND I think it is important to teach boys not to ogle girls and to look away if they have a problem with the way a girl is dressed. They are not mutually exclusive.

[Mrs Mungo]

But adults who have been engaging and enjoying a sexual relationship is different than a teen who has not had sex yet, right?

 

Sure, it's different. But, biologically they already have those feelings and desires. I think trying to ignore/repress them does more damage.

[texasmama]

I don't know, I just don't see how boys sitting around masturbating can be a good thing. Obviously it's better than going out and having sex but I thought the issue was, that boys have more self control than we give them credit for (that's why we are so disgusted with that rebelution site, right?)

 

I think it is a biological/physiological rather than a self-control issue. I don't expect that my boys will make it through until marriage without ever masturbating. My fondest hope is that they will refrain from intercourse. IMO, more damage is done by shaming a teen boy than by normalizing the behavior of masturbation and setting some value-based guidelines around it. However, I know that dh and I cannot control the thoughts that our kids have, nor can we really control their actions. We can give guidance, pass on moral values (and the WHY's of these) and let them know that when they fall down, they can come to us for help getting back up.

 

I like the series of books (Christian) Every Man's Battle, Every Woman's Battle, Every Young Man's Battle, Every Young Woman's Battle. I don't specifically recall the stance on masturbation, but overall I found this to be a helpful series.

[I.Dup.]

I worked in day care when I was in college. One year I had a little girl who put herself to sleep at nap time enjoying herself and a little boy always in overalls because he found joy all day long. They were between 18 months and 3.

 

Right, all kids like touching themselves. They eventually grow out of it, somewhat (I don't see many 9+ year olds rubbing their privates constantly like toddlers do) I see the problem being when a young person gets into the habit of continually bringing themself to climax, that's different than occasional touching, IMO. If a very young child figured out how to bring themselves to climax, I can't imagine them being able to stop doing so to the point that it would affect their everyday lives tremendously.

[Parrothead]

But adults who have been engaging and enjoying a sexual relationship is different than a teen who has not had sex yet, right?

How would that do anything but frustrate these teens.

 

We no longer marry them off as they become sexually mature. We are the only animals that do not let sexually mature people participate in sex. How is that doing anyone any good?

 

Maybe if masturbation were more acceptable the rate of teen pregnancy would be lower.

[Barb_]

But adults who have been engaging and enjoying a sexual relationship is different than a teen who has not had sex yet, right?

 

I think a teenager is as entitled to sexual release as an adult who is regularly engaged with a partner. Probably more so. Why would it be different? Honestly, that is what those parts are there for.

[LibraryLover]

But adults who have been engaging and enjoying a sexual relationship is different than a teen who has not had sex yet, right?

 

 

There is not a teen boy (or maybe even girl) on this planet who has not masturbated. There are millions, however, who feel guilty about it. Let's stop that nonsense.

 

Not to mention-- There is nothing wrong with not subjecting some poor bride to your first orgasm. (That can't even be measured in stamina time. Lucky girl. ;) )

[Veritaserum]

I think the modesty movement is ultimately anti-woman. Posts about not being able to do ballet or sports due to modesty concerns illustrate this.

 

:iagree: Our religious beliefs do teach modesty, but I teach my daughters to be modest (comfortably covered, feeling beautiful) for themselves and not for males. If I had sons, I would teach the same. When the modesty message is exclusively targeted at females and they are told that it's up to them to keep male thoughts from straying, I have a big problem with that.

[I.Dup.]

There is not a teen boy (or maybe even girl) on this planet who has not masturbated.

 

Umm I did not know how to masturbate to climax until many years into my marriage. I know many women who have a hard time figuring out how to have an orgasm.

[Barb_]

Right, all kids like touching themselves. They eventually grow out of it, somewhat (I don't see many 9+ year olds rubbing their privates constantly like toddlers do)

 

No, they go to their rooms to "read" or whatnot.

[LibraryLover]

Umm I did not know how to masturbate to climax until many years into my marriage. I know many women who have a hard time figuring out how to have an orgasm.

 

 

But now you know. That's the important thing. :)

[justamouse]

I think a teenager is as entitled to sexual release as an adult who is regularly engaged with a partner. Probably more so. Why would it be different? Honestly, that is what those parts are there for.

 

I think it's actually safer and give girls more power. Go on a date, get a little hot and know you don't have to follow through, you can come home and be master of your domain.

[Mrs Mungo]

Umm I did not know how to masturbate to climax until many years into my marriage. I know many women who have a hard time figuring out how to have an orgasm.

 

True. But, I don't think that's a good thing. I think it mostly due to over-concern with things like modesty, being a "good" girl, repression, etc.

[Parrothead]

Right, all kids like touching themselves. They eventually grow out of it, somewhat (I don't see many 9+ year olds rubbing their privates constantly like toddlers do) I see the problem being when a young person gets into the habit of continually bringing themself to climax, that's different than occasional touching, IMO. If a very young child figured out how to bring themselves to climax, I can't imagine them being able to stop doing so to the point that it would affect their everyday lives tremendously.

Just because it isn't seen doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[Joker]

I think it's actually safer and give girls more power. Go on a date, get a little hot and know you don't have to follow through, you can come home and be master of your domain.

 

Yes! They also won't fall so easily for all the stupid lines guys can give because they will know they can go home and do the same thing.

[Daisy]

One more thread. Well, here goes...

 

Yes, we are concerned with modesty for both of our children (boy and girl) and ourselves, as parents.

 

No, we do not believe expectations of modesty are anti-woman, anti-man, anti-child, or anti-adult. It is simply pro-manners.

 

No, we do not approve of pre-marital sex.

 

No, we do not approve of masturbation, but we also don't see it as the end of the world. If and when it leads to lustful thoughts about those of the opposite sex, it clearly becomes sin according to Scripture (Matthew 5:28).

 

No, we do not approve of porn, EVER. In any fashion. We don't have soft porn in the house (underwear ads, romance novels, etc) either.

 

Yes, we believe our children, by God's grace, are capable of controlling their sexual urges until they are married.

[justamouse]

I know many women who have a hard time figuring out how to have an orgasm.

 

 

Which is incredibly sad to not be able to share that with your mate. But I personally feel it's an upbringing of shame that makes many women unable to orgasm. I refuse to do that to my kids and to THEIR mates. To be unable to fully share themselves.

[I.Dup.]

No, they go to their rooms to "read" or whatnot.

 

so you think every young child intrinsically knows how to bring themselves to climax and does so on a regular basis? That is just a very disturbing thought to me. I would rather not even think about it and I very much do not agree.

[Mrs Mungo]

so you think every young child intrinsically knows how to bring themselves to climax and does so on a regular basis? That is just a very disturbing thought to me. I would rather not even think about it and I very much do not agree.

 

We were talking about teens, not young children. You said "young person" and now you have changed it to "young child." Bait and switch. Uncool.

[justamouse]

so you think every young child intrinsically knows how to bring themselves to climax and does so on a regular basis? That is just a very disturbing thought to me. I would rather not even think about it and I very much do not agree.

 

Talking teens here:

 

It's only disturbing because you find it shameful. To a person who doesn't see shame in a body's natural response, it's just natural.

 

I grew up with a mother who was huge on shame and it was extremely destructive to my psyche. It took me a long time to work through that. Please, think about how your feelings translate to your child, what you are implanting in them and how it will affect their marriage.

[I.Dup.]

We were talking about teens, not young children. You said "young person" and now you have changed it to "young child." Bait and switch. Uncool.

 

I think it was Parrothead (forgive me if I'm wrong) that brought up 18 months- 3 year olds "enjoying" themselves and that is the original post I was referring to on this particular subject when I mentioned you don't see 9 year olds out touching themselves (trying to show that they grow out of it). I would guess anyone would see 18 mo. - 3 year olds as young children. Not sure how that is "baiting and switching" :confused:

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it was Parrothead (forgive me if I'm wrong) that brought up 18 months- 3 year olds "enjoying" themselves and that is the original post I was referring to on this particular subject when I mentioned you don't see 9 year olds out touching themselves (trying to show that they grow out of it). I would guess anyone would see 18 mo. - 3 year olds as young children. Not sure how that is "baiting and switching" :confused:

 

She didn't say anything about climax.

[Barb_]

so you think every young child intrinsically knows how to bring themselves to climax and does so on a regular basis? That is just a very disturbing thought to me. I would rather not even think about it and I very much do not agree.

 

Okay, I'm so confused.

 

1. 9+ isn't a young child. Most 9yo don't know how to climax, but that doesn't stop them from trying. Usually in private.

 

2. Why the focus on climaxing?

 

3. Kids don't grow out of touching themselves. They just get better at it.

[I.Dup.]

She didn't say anything about climax.

 

Yes, and that's why I made the distinction here:

 

I see the problem being when a young person gets into the habit of continually bringing themself to climax, that's different than occasional touching, IMO.

 

My point was the problem comes in once someone learns how to bring themselves to climax. Then it would become more addicting, right?

[Wabi Sabi]

We don't have soft porn in the house (underwear ads, romance novels, etc) either.

 

 

Just curious how this works: just no bodice-ripper, Fabio-on-the-cover style romance novels or no romance books of any sort, period? (I'm thinking that there are many classics that fall into the romance catagory- Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Rebecca, Romeo and Juliet, etc.)

 

And underwear ads- do the Target and K-Mart ads that come in the Sunday paper get tossed before the Joe Boxers and Hanes Her Way ads are viewed, or are you talking more explicitly about things such as the Victoria's Secret catalogs?

[LibraryLover]

My dh says that if we moved to Africa and lived in a cave with our children apart from society that our boys at some point would figure out how to whip the bishop. (Pardon my crudity, but I don't know if there are any real "rules of polite society" when one is discussing porn and teen masturbation.)

 

 

LOL I have never heard that phrase.

[Barb_]

Yes, and that's why I made the distinction here:

 

 

 

My point was the problem comes in once someone learns how to bring themselves to climax. Then it would become more addicting, right?

 

Okay I think I understand where you are coming from. I think you are misusing the word addicting, then.

[Mrs Mungo]

My point was the problem comes in once someone learns how to bring themselves to climax. Then it would become more addicting, right?

 

Let me say again. The *vast majority* of men masturbated as teens. *Most* of them do not have a problem relating to women. Most of them have intercourse with their wives on a regular basis. Most of them do not remain reliant on masturbation to fulfill their needs.

[I.Dup.]

I was responding to Barb's post about "that's what children do when they go off in their rooms to "read"."

[Barb_]

I was responding to Barb's post about "that's what children do when they go off in their rooms to "read"."

 

:lol: Well, not EVERY time. Sometimes they are actually reading. My point was, kids don't outgrow masturbation...they just learn to do it privately.

[LibraryLover]

So I take it that there are only a couple of other women on Chapter 4 of Jenna's book? ;) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jenna_Jameson

[Daisy]

Just curious how this works: just no bodice-ripper, Fabio-on-the-cover style romance novels or no romance books of any sort, period? (I'm thinking that there are many classics that fall into the romance catagory- Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Rebecca, Romeo and Juliet, etc.)

 

And underwear ads- do the Target and K-Mart ads that come in the Sunday paper get tossed before the Joe Boxers and Hanes Her Way ads are viewed, or are you talking more explicitly about things such as the Victoria's Secret catalogs?

 

I meant romance novels that contain depictions of sex (graphic or not).

 

No ads. We don't get any so it isn't a problem. But if they did come in the mail, I would just throw them away. We are not phobic of them, we just think they are trashy. No one needs to see a picture of someone in underwear before going to the store and buying some. It is completely unnecessary.

[Barb_]

Whoa! Where did we go? For a second I thought we broke it.

[Perry]

 

Our reasons for maintaining reasonable modesty are self-respect (you are worth more than the attention you draw to your body), respect for others (accentuating our private parts causes problems for people, whether or not it should), and because society defines people by how they are dressed.

:iagree:

 

For me, modesty is about not trying to attract attention to yourself. Or at least not attempting to be the center of attention, based on dress/appearance.

 

I think it's fine, and totally normal, for girls to want to dress up and look pretty. But when she is attention seeking and trying to be the most noticeable, that to me is immodest.