small rant - Community College Course Selection

[Denise in Florida]

My dd17 will start her senior year this fall. She dual-enrolled at the community college last year and will again this year. It is a great opportunity and meets her science and math needs that are beyond my level now. :001_smile:

 

I just helped her plan her fall schedule.

 

Here is the rant - aaarrrgh

 

There is ONE (1) Calculus I section offered.

There are TWELVE (12) remedial Pre-Algebra sections offered.

 

The ranking goes like this.

 

Pre-Algebra (no college credit)

Introductory Algebra (no college credit)

Intermediate Algebra (college credit but doesn't meet math requirement, elective only)

College Algebra (college credit and lowest course that meets math requirement)

Pre-Calc (1 section offered)

Calc I (1 section offered)

Calc II (not offered in fall)

Calc III (1 section offered - fall only, not offered again until next fall)

 

Seriously.... This is a community college that is now offering Bachelor's degrees in Health Care Management and Nursing. Don't those need math?

[Amy in NH]

 

Seriously.... This is a community college that is now offering Bachelor's degrees in Health Care Management and Nursing. Don't those need math?

 

I'm pretty sure you don't need calculus for either of those degrees.

[In The Great White North]

Our local community college doesn't offer anything of use, at all.

[Twigs]

Same situation at my communitity college. More classes are offered in remedial math than any other subject. The colleges are remediating the graduates of the local high schools. They have to offer so many remedial classes because that is where the need is. Since so many students can't get past the lower level classes, there are not enough student "qualified" to take higher level classes. The colleges are (trying) to meet the needs of the students and most of the students are unprepared math. (I think I have started to ramble)

 

(BTW, many nurses I know can barely pass algebra - I've had math & science classes with nurses, worked in healthcare, & tutored science for health care majors at the community college - I know a wide range of nurses.)

 

Way to go for your daughter for pursuing college level math and science while still in high school.

 

Best wishes.

[Happy]

It could be that more and more 4 year college are not accepting math credits from the community colleges. We've found that many 4 year unis insist that a student grow through their math classes, instead of hopping into upper level classes.

 

Perhaps it's just our community college classes...

[Riverland]

There have been several recent articles in our newspaper about how much remedial math the community college must offer because the kids did not learn it in high school. The cc would prefer to offer more high level math, but its students need lower level math. sad.

[Alphabetika]

This situation and overcrowding are the two reasons that dual enrollment isn't a viable option for homeschoolers in our area. Sigh....

[Mandy in TN]

Actually, there are many 4-year degrees (if not most BAs) that only require College Algebra. Almost all 2 year degrees only require College Algebra. The big exception at my community college (and probably the only reason that I can count myself lucky enough to have anything above College Algebra offered at my local CC) is the transfer agreements for engineering degrees at the state 4 year colleges. :) However, they offer them on a schedule similar to your CC.

 

Mandy

[Denise in Florida]

I'm pretty sure you don't need calculus for either of those degrees.

 

I did not know that. I was a liberal arts major and took more than the required math because I enjoyed them. I just figured health care would be a math/science intense program. Thanks for the information. :001_smile:

[Denise in Florida]

Same situation at my communitity college. More classes are offered in remedial math than any other subject. The colleges are remediating the graduates of the local high schools. They have to offer so many remedial classes because that is where the need is. Since so many students can't get past the lower level classes, there are not enough student "qualified" to take higher level classes. The colleges are (trying) to meet the needs of the students and most of the students are unprepared math. (I think I have started to ramble)

 

(BTW, many nurses I know can barely pass algebra - I've had math & science classes with nurses, worked in healthcare, & tutored science for health care majors at the community college - I know a wide range of nurses.)

 

Way to go for your daughter for pursuing college level math and science while still in high school.

 

Best wishes.

 

She and her older sister both enjoy math. Neither intends to pursue a math based career. My older dd loved the calculus teacher at this community college because he really prepared the kids and showed them how 'beautiful' it is.

[Denise in Florida]

It could be that more and more 4 year college are not accepting math credits from the community colleges. We've found that many 4 year unis insist that a student grow through their math classes, instead of hopping into upper level classes.

 

Perhaps it's just our community college classes...

 

Older dd went through Calculus II at this community college and loved the teacher. She even joined the math team. She wanted to take Calc III but it wasn't offered during the semester she was available.

 

Later her 4 year college told her she needed to retake Calculus I and she ended up helping the other kids in class because her community college teacher had covered more ground than the 4year college teacher. :lol:

 

She is majoring in Music Theory now and often tries to describe music in mathmatical terms I can't quite keep up with. She received great preparation from this teacher yet he only teaches 2 or 3 sections a semester (advanced only, not remedial).

[Sunshine State Sue]

How interesting. For the heck of it, I checked our local CC. Ds is registered for Intermediate Algebra in the fall. Here are the numbers:

Pre-Algebra - 19

Introductory Algebra - 16

Intermediate Algebra - 23

College Algebra - 18

Pre-Calc - see note below

Calc I - 3

Calc II - 2

Calc III - 1

 

Our CC does not really have Pre-Calc. They have Pre-Calculus Algebra (5 sections) and Trig (5 sections). What's up with that? They do have a combined class (2 sections).

[kiana]

They offer these disparate section numbers because that's where the need is. It sucks for students who need those classes, but it'd be silly to have 5 sections of calc 1 with 5-7 students each, when people need to take pre-algebra and can't register for it.

[Jennifer3141]

There have been several recent articles in our newspaper about how much remedial math the community college must offer because the kids did not learn it in high school. The cc would prefer to offer more high level math, but its students need lower level math. sad.

 

:iagree:

 

It's awful but apparently a lot of parents are finding they have to send their kids through CCs to get them caught up on math they should have learned in HS!!

[Pretty in Pink]

They offer these disparate section numbers because that's where the need is. It sucks for students who need those classes, but it'd be silly to have 5 sections of calc 1 with 5-7 students each, when people need to take pre-algebra and can't register for it.

 

:iagree: I am sure that the majority of instructors tire of teaching remedial courses, but that is where the need lies. My local CC has similar course offerings. There is only one section of Chem II, for example, and it is during the Spring semester each year, and they still have trouble meeting the minimum number of students required to hold the course (there were a whopping 11 students in that course last Spring). It's the same with upper-level math courses. Two-level nursing degrees usually require only Alg. I.

[Denise in Florida]

How interesting. For the heck of it, I checked our local CC. Ds is registered for Intermediate Algebra in the fall. Here are the numbers:

 

Our CC does not really have Pre-Calc. They have Pre-Calculus Algebra (5 sections) and Trig (5 sections). What's up with that? They do have a combined class (2 sections).

 

Wow, you have a lot of math sections, you must have a very large community college. Maybe they split pre-calc and trig for students who want or need to cover the material a little slower. The pre-calc here is combined pre-calc algebra and trig in one semester.

[Denise in Florida]

They offer these disparate section numbers because that's where the need is. It sucks for students who need those classes, but it'd be silly to have 5 sections of calc 1 with 5-7 students each, when people need to take pre-algebra and can't register for it.

 

I know it makes sense as far as a good use of resources go but it makes schedule making difficult. By the time you fill in that ONE section of calc you just have to plan everything else around it. DD then ends up taking a classes every day M-F instead of just MWF or TR.

 

I just stay thankful that we have such good teachers here and that the tuition is free. :001_smile:

 

BTW I love your Icon.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Denise in Florida
icon love

[Annie G]

Our area (like many) has been hit hard with a failing economy. Due to that, we're seeing many more kids using the community college system for the first year or two of college- kids who are fully qualified to go off to a four year school. Because of this, our community college has increased their upper level offerings. Yes, there are plenty of remedial classes still available, but there are also upper level math and science classes- math through calc 2 and differential equations this fall, with calc 3 available in the spring.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Wow, you have a lot of math sections, you must have a very large community college.

It seems that there are 9 campuses throughout the county. Some campuses are smaller and have a specific focus. My stats come from the one closest to us.

[AngieW in Texas]

At the local campus for our cc, we have:

10 college algebra

2 trigonometry

6 college math

2 statistics

2 precalculus

2 calculus I

2 calculus II

 

remedial courses

19 developmental math

20 Algebra I

9 Algebra II

[creekland]

Our local cc offers:

 

Remedial:

6 Pre-Alg

9 Beginning Alg

1 Pre College Alg

9 Intermediate Alg

 

College Level:

1 College Math for Business

3 College Alg

1 Applied Calc for Business

1 Principles of Math

1 Math Elementary Teachers II

1 Pre-Calc

2 Intro to Statistics

 

Working in our local public high school for the past 11 years, this doesn't surprise me.

 

Middle son is doing Calc 1 at home with Thinkwell. Oldest did it at home with Chalkdust.

[Penelope]

Does your local public school system have dual enrollment in cc for dual credit during high school?

 

That could explain some of it, also.

[twoforjoy]

I wonder if some of the issue is also class-size related. They may try to keep the remedial courses very small, but have larger sections of the other courses. I know that when I teach the remedial writing course the number of students in each section is less than when I teach the regular first year comp course.

 

They may be trying to keep the remedial courses to 20 students or fewer, but allow 80-100+ students in Calculus.

[ocelotmom]

Seriously.... This is a community college that is now offering Bachelor's degrees in Health Care Management and Nursing. Don't those need math?

I've seen few nursing programs that require anything beyond Intermediate Algebra and Statistics. And, realistically, there was no math beyond Algebra I used in my nursing program. Most of it was advanced arithmetic - you just needed to be really proficient and accurate at that!

[Photo Ninja]

Many math courses at our cc are similar - lots of remedial sections and few advanced level courses. There was ONE College Algebra course offered. One. Class. Now I think part of the reason is that many majors don't require College Algebra. College Algebra and Statistics are the same level of math course (looking at the flow chart) and nearly all students take Statistics, then move on to Calculus if they are taking more math.

 

My dd couldn't get the Anatomy course she needs. She tried for three semesters, but the course was always filled. Last semester she tried and there were only two Anatomy classes offered with a maximum of about 28 per class (probably based on the required lab). That is not very many because the class is in high demand. I know that most students don't take that course, but this particular cc has a lot of nursing students as well as other Kinesiology and other health related majors, and they all require Anatomy. There is no way that several hundred students can all take the required course when only about 60 per semester can enroll. Now my dd has to take Anatomy at the university because she couldn't get into the course at the cc, and she has to take other Anatomy courses required for her major BEFORE she can take the basic Anatomy course because that is only offered in the spring.

[Tap]

Wow, that is sad!

 

Ds16 is dual enrolled; he just finished Calc 1 and 2, 3 is planned for fall.

 

There are 3+ pages of math classes offered at his CC

 

There are 70+ class times offered from math 30 Pre Algebra to math 95 intermediate Algebra. These take up about 1 page but there are still 2 more page of math classes College Trig and above totaling over 70 more time offerings.

 

Just under Calculus: (not including evening classes)

 

Business Calculus =3

Calc 1=5

Calc 2=2

Calc 3=2

Calc 4=1

 

There are also 4 different statistics classes of a 200 level or higher offered and Descriptive Statistics (level 200) is offered 3 times.

 

 

There are several universities that will accept the math from this college, even for serious math/science majors, including Washington State University

[Cheryl in NM]

Dsd says that most kids going into CC need those "no credit" classes to get to the level of knowledge they need to take the "for credit" classes. These kids are graduating high school and can't begin entry level college classes.

[creekland]

Does your local public school system have dual enrollment in cc for dual credit during high school?

 

That could explain some of it, also.

 

I can't speak for all cc as I know many are different, but in ours, if anyone under age 18 wishes to take classes they have to test into the college level classes (not remedial) and have higher than average ACT/SAT scores. 16 is the minimum age one can apply. You also need your guidance counselor (ps) or evaluator's (hs) recommendation.

 

And they still offer 25 remedial classes but just 10 college level.

[kalanamak]

 

Seriously.... This is a community college that is now offering Bachelor's degrees in Health Care Management and Nursing. Don't those need math?

 

Yes, but not calculus.

I have never taken nor used calculus in my life. When I was in school, it was not a req, and people used it more as a "see, I have done calculus, physical chem, and bio chem" to show they were extra smart and hard working.

[angela in ohio]

Does your local public school system have dual enrollment in cc for dual credit during high school?

 

That could explain some of it, also.

 

That's very unlikely. Usually dual enrollment is for students who have mastered all of the classes at their high school, so they would be going to the cc for college-level classes. As a pp said, no dual enrolled student may take remedial classes at our cc.

[angela in ohio]

I'm feeling lucky. Ours offers many sections of Calc I, II, etc. They are automatically accepted at most state schools (including U of M, currently in the top choices for dds.) My dd could knock out Calc I and II, Chem I and II, and a few other pre-engineering courses here.

[Mandy in TN]

I can't speak for all cc as I know many are different, but in ours, if anyone under age 18 wishes to take classes they have to test into the college level classes (not remedial) and have higher than average ACT/SAT scores. 16 is the minimum age one can apply. You also need your guidance counselor (ps) or evaluator's (hs) recommendation.

 

And they still offer 25 remedial classes but just 10 college level.

 

That's very unlikely. Usually dual enrollment is for students who have mastered all of the classes at their high school, so they would be going to the cc for college-level classes. As a pp said, no dual enrolled student may take remedial classes at our cc.

This is also true here. Dual enrollment students may not enroll in remedial classes. There are guideline ACT scores that dual enrollment students must meet in math to take math and science classes and in English to take anything other than math. Also, the student must be a high school jr/sr with an unweighted minimum GPA of 3.0. The state dual enrollment grant pays $300/semester, up to $600/ year. The student must maintain a 2.75 GPA in his cc courses or he loses the grant for the duration of high school.

 

I have known families that have gotten special permission for younger students to take classes, but I don't know anyone who has gotten anything else waived.

 

The little branch of the cc in my town is offering:

Learning Support Math (9 sections)

Essentials of Algebra (2 sections)

College Math (1 section)

Elementary Statistics (2 sections)

Finite Mathematics (1 section)

Precalculus Algebra (1 section)

Applied Calculus (1 section)

 

If I wanted my children to take Calc1, we would need to drive to a larger campus. There are 2 larger ones that are both 20-25 mi away.

 

Mandy