Maverick_Mom Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) Got our standardized test scores back today (ds and dd both took the CAT-E). I'm pleased overall, but one thing in particular caught my eye -- their scores on math concepts and application were lower than their scores for math computation. This doesn't really surprise me. We haven't used Singapore or a similar approach, and I'm not a mathy person, so the conceptual side of math hasn't been stressed as much as it might have been if we'd used a different program or if they'd been taught by someone other than me. That hasn't really bothered me, and I'm not kicking myself about the difference in scores -- they both still did well. But I'm wondering, now, if it's too late to focus on the conceptual side of math. Dd is basically done, so I'm thinking in terms of ds, who is just starting with algebra. Short of switching to Singapore (which I don't want to do because I don't think it would be an easy transition at this stage of the game), what can I do or use to work on understanding the "why" of math? Or is it too late? ETA: Reflecting on my original question, I'd have to say that it's never too late to teach anything. I guess what I'm really asking is this: is it ever too late to teach your child to think about math in the Singapore, conceptual way? Edited May 27, 2011 by Maverick_Mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna in Texas Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I don't know if I can fully answer this, but I don't think it's too late. I'm one of those that did well in math through school, always scoring in the 99%ile on state standardized testing. I decided to go a different route with dd and honestly I didn't start to really be challenged until I got an older (pre 1975) edition of Dolciani's Modern Algebra. You'll find many threads about this on the HS board. DD is having a much easier time with it than I am. The earlier stuff: Miquon and Singapore; didn't serve as much of a problem. There were some things that I thought maybe I could just show her my way, but realized that I would just be defeating the purpose. I could usually read over it and understand what it was saying even though I didn't learn it that way. Except for Challenging Word Problems from Singapore. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick_Mom Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 I don't know if I can fully answer this, but I don't think it's too late. I'm one of those that did well in math through school, always scoring in the 99%ile on state standardized testing. I decided to go a different route with dd and honestly I didn't start to really be challenged until I got an older (pre 1975) edition of Dolciani's Modern Algebra. You'll find many threads about this on the HS board. DD is having a much easier time with it than I am. The earlier stuff: Miquon and Singapore; didn't serve as much of a problem. There were some things that I thought maybe I could just show her my way, but realized that I would just be defeating the purpose. I could usually read over it and understand what it was saying even though I didn't learn it that way. Except for Challenging Word Problems from Singapore. :D We actually used Singapore for a couple of years early on, and I liked it, but it didn't have nearly enough review built into it, so we switched to CLE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I have taught myself conceptual math in the past few years (as a result of homeschooling and needing to understand what I was teaching my boys) so I don't think it is too late for anyone. I read books geared towards teachers in order to accomplish my own goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 ETA: Reflecting on my original question, I'd have to say that it's never too late to teach anything. I guess what I'm really asking is this: is it ever too late to teach your child to think about math in the Singapore, conceptual way? I don't think so. How old are your kids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I have taught myself conceptual math in the past few years (as a result of homeschooling and needing to understand what I was teaching my boys) so I don't think it is too late for anyone. I read books geared towards teachers in order to accomplish my own goal. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I have taught myself conceptual math in the past few years (as a result of homeschooling and needing to understand what I was teaching my boys) so I don't think it is too late for anyone. I read books geared towards teachers in order to accomplish my own goal. Besides Liping Ma, would you mind sharing what else have you read? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Besides Liping Ma, would you mind sharing what else have you read? I am currently making my way through this one: http://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Mathematics-Teachers-Thomas-Parker/dp/0974814008 It is written specifically to be worked with Singapore math materials, but I believe it would be helpful to people who dont' have access to the SM books. I am not working through the assigned problems in SM while reading the book because I have already worked through SM Essentials - 4B. The book explains the concepts and then assigns specific problems from SM for the reader to complete. This is a book which could be used by an older child/teen with mom's help, as well. It explains clearly the different properties of mathematics. Or a parent could read the book and teach a short lesson on a whiteboard explaining the principles covered in the book. This could be done with any age child - or adults, for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 You don't have to switch programs, just be sure to reinforce the concepts in your lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick_Mom Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 I don't think so. How old are your kids? The child I have in mind is 13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick_Mom Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 You don't have to switch programs, just be sure to reinforce the concepts in your lessons. But this is dependent upon my understanding the concepts myself and not just teaching the process, KWIM? I think I really do need to engage in some self-education. Maybe I could, over the summer, read a book such as Liping Ma's and go through something like Singapore 4A or B with ds to illustrate the concepts. He made it as far as 4A or 4B before we switched; I'm sure we still have the book somewhere and even though he's past those topics, it would still be a good exercise to go through them again, this time *understanding* and not just going through the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 We rarely did testing, so I'm fuzzy about what kinds of questions there were in the "math concepts" section. Can you help me out here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick_Mom Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 We rarely did testing, so I'm fuzzy about what kinds of questions there were in the "math concepts" section. Can you help me out here? I don't remember, unfortunately. ("I just gives the tests -- I don't takes 'em." :D) But I think it has to do with knowing how to solve a particular problem by applying the correct algorithm versus understanding general concepts and extrapolating them to new situations because you "get" the "why" behind them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I am currently making my way through this one: http://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Mathematics-Teachers-Thomas-Parker/dp/0974814008 It is written specifically to be worked with Singapore math materials, but I believe it would be helpful to people who dont' have access to the SM books. I am not working through the assigned problems in SM while reading the book because I have already worked through SM Essentials - 4B. The book explains the concepts and then assigns specific problems from SM for the reader to complete. This is a book which could be used by an older child/teen with mom's help, as well. It explains clearly the different properties of mathematics. Or a parent could read the book and teach a short lesson on a whiteboard explaining the principles covered in the book. This could be done with any age child - or adults, for that matter. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I haven't read the responses, but I have an opinion (mounting soapbox): No. I just started learning the Singapore method of math two years ago :D I'm 30. If I can do it, your ds AND your dd can too :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagira Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Agree with above post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I just wanted to throw this out there that I've only ever used Saxon, and Nathan scores higher on the concepts than the computation every time. (both are high though). Aaron flip-flopped between one being higher than the other. They've both always scored overall at least in the top 5 percent -- often top 2 or 1. But, to answer your question, I don't think it's ever too late. I have used other materials, though. I often add some sort of math logic worksheet or supplemental word problems. I'm going to add some Challenging Word problems for summer work. I think part of the problem with math concepts is the fact that the student has to be disciplined enough to read the problem and think about it. It's just easier to see the problem and do it. Ben, at nine, despises having to take the time to think through a math problem. It's like he throws up a wall of "I can't do it" before he even starts. I sit with him, tell him to read the problem aloud to me, imagine what is happening -- step by step. I then have him draw a picture, if applicable. He has attention issues and would much rather just move along. It's quite tiring, but I think it will pay off. He gets tired of my explanations and my additional questions to see if he gets another similar problem. But, I keep at it. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Oh, and I find the estimation portion of the IOWA tests to be the most ridiculous problems I've ever seen. I would never use their methods of estimation when approaching a problem. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolamum Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I wouldn't think it's EVER too late. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I don't remember, unfortunately. ("I just gives the tests -- I don't takes 'em." :D) But I think it has to do with knowing how to solve a particular problem by applying the correct algorithm versus understanding general concepts and extrapolating them to new situations because you "get" the "why" behind them. Hmm...I'd have to see the actual questions on the test. I can't think of a math text I've seen that really taught the "why" more than any other. Maybe I'll sleuth around the Internet and see if I can find test samples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deniseibase Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Having flunked algebra in high school, and passed it with a C- the next year, and then growing up to have a wonderful dd who is much, MUCH smarter at math than I am, I can assure you, it is never too late, apparently you can even learn math in your 40s :D It is much easier and more interesting now!! I'm currently working in Saxon Algebra II and AoPS Algebra in a desperate attempt to stay ahead of my dd, but it's a losing battle - I'm ok with that! :) But, I will say that as far as concepts, I really think some of understanding math concepts is just the way your brain is wired. DD and I have both used Saxon up through this year, and she 'gets' concepts while I pretty much just get the methods. I typically have to go over the same material several times before it becomes usable to me as a concept and not just as a method, where she gets the concepts on a much deeper level pretty quickly. We are switching to AoPS and I have started working in the Intro to Algebra, and it hurts my head. BUT, I do get it eventually! So don't give up! If the motivation is there, anything is possible! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Besides Liping Ma, would you mind sharing what else have you read? Ahroni's Math for Parents. The SM people in Oregon carry it. Doing SM step by step. "Playing with math" .. doing basic problems you'd have done as a 12 year old, but with my adult brain. "How else could I get this answer?" You fool around and suddenly you notice (well, I noticed) that 4x6= 8x3. I had never thought about the relationship. Or, 5x odd= x5. Five times an even = x0. Never thought of that one, either. Reading about math wars. Learning finger math. http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Book-Fingermath-Accurate-Scientific/dp/0070376808 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyall Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 No its not too late. I learned in college the whys of most of math. Suggested reads: Children's Arithmetic by Herbert Ginsberg. The Number Devil, The Man who counted Crest of the Peacock, other math history books Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Not only is it not too late for your 13-year-old, I'd say it is essential for success at the kind of math that is just starting to be introduced at this age. Kids who get the "why" have a *much* easier time with algebra and beyond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Having enjoyed basic arithmetic, hated algebra and trig; been lukewarm about geometry and probably never having learned a great deal of concept math until late college, I can say that while I don't think it is too late to understand math it would certainly be easier when someone is younger! The young mind is able to bend itself better in some ways than an adult one. I would also say that it is never to late to appreciate the beauty of mathematical language. I fell in love with calculus after having disliked or hated math most of my life. Now, I'm relearning math with my children by having to explain the whys and hows; so maybe I'll get there someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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