Ester Maria: Hive Mind Queen Bee

[SonshineLearner]

I just wanted to tell you, that your posts hurt my head! :D

 

It makes me wonder if my poor child will be educated, not just adequately, but to the level of a student that is "Classically Educated".:)

 

I believe that to be fair, some of you should open up boarding schools. :lol:

 

I know he will be as good with me as in public schools, because I have an incredible determination to provide an education, but when I read your posts, I realize that my head can't even wrap around what I want his education to be.

 

So, if you open a school, and are accepting students from America, let me know :) I have one cute almost 8 year old to send your way :)

[RootAnn]

I believe that to be fair, some of you should open up boarding schools. :lol:

:iagree:

 

But my kids might miss me if I'm gone to some of your schools for more than a couple of years. :lol:

[SonshineLearner]

:iagree:

 

But my kids might miss me if I'm gone to some of your schools for more than a couple of years. :lol:

 

Oh cool :) I didn't think of that!! The boarding school can be for ... Us!! ;)

[PeterPan]

I must be in a snarky mood, because my first thought was that I didn't know my goal was to turn out an educated child. I actually hope to turn out a WHOLE human being, a person who functions. And that's one thing my dd told me recently, that in looking at her peers she has realized she knows how to LIVE. Books alone can't get you there. ;)

 

But it is true, you can't hit your goals till you know what they are. Those goals aren't going to be the same for all people. We have gender differences, personality/gifting/bent differences, and even differences in cultural expectations. I think someone can fit the norm for Ester's locale and look like an oddball in Arkansas where the Duggars live. There's just such a variety in fine ways to live a peaceful, happy life; I've given up trying to compare or letting myself feel constantly inadequate. I might be inadequate for what my particular child needs, but my overall vision and goals are not inadequate, if that makes sense.

 

So yes, utterly admire Ester. Then go back and pat yourself a bit that you're probably fine too. :)

[Ester Maria]

I ramble a lot (i.e. turn into elaborate diatribes that which should be a succint paragraph or two), but in reality, I do not really know anything (about anything) and I have not really figured out how to do this whole education thing, I just know how to "project" a secure attitude. ;)

 

Do not let it fool you, often I sound a lot more impressive than in reality I am, so the same extends to educating those poor kids.

I outsource a lot, my kids even semi-attend(ed) schools (long story...), often sacrifice depth for breadth (which is not always a good choice, and not a good choice for every child), have kids who respond well to that particular way of teaching and a lot of you, upon closer inspection, would probably be shocked as to how fragile and superficial the "building" of both my knowledge and what I try to help my kids build for themselves actually is.

 

Basically, I ramble a lot, but do not take me seriously. Entertain it, if you have patience to now and then read what I write, but do not let it affect your life and thoughts in any way before you have considered how much of that is even applicable or advisable for your particular circumstances, your particular child and your particular goals. :)

[SonshineLearner]

:) Ok, so I guess that's the polite way of saying you're "not boarding" and trying to make sure I don't send my kid over with a note :)

 

BTW, OhElizabeth, I understand the part about it not being about how much you can put in your child's head. Regretfully, I understand this too well.

 

I do want the "whole deal" for my son :) The outgoing side able to communicate in an intelligent way, intelligence and knowledge which is needed to do that, and the end result of an adult who is able to achieve his "career and family life" that he wants. (And someone that won't think of college as the end of learning)

 

BUT, some of the things that Ester Maria has spoken about like sciences and maths running together... I would LOVE to figure out how to do that. It's pressure to know that I have this little boy who has gifts in this area, and I don't know how to do what I want for him. AND, our public schools are actually quite good, but they wouldn't get him where I want, either...

 

SO, I'll just keep reading... Maybe a good book about how to Teach Science in a full way. I was just looking at Science yesterday, and kinda freaking out! (Well, freaking out about Math, too :))

 

Back to sipping my coffee. :)

[Jane Elliot]

I must be in a snarky mood, because my first thought was that I didn't know my goal was to turn out an educated child. I actually hope to turn out a WHOLE human being, a person who functions. And that's one thing my dd told me recently, that in looking at her peers she has realized she knows how to LIVE. Books alone can't get you there. ;)

 

But it is true, you can't hit your goals till you know what they are. Those goals aren't going to be the same for all people. We have gender differences, personality/gifting/bent differences, and even differences in cultural expectations. I think someone can fit the norm for Ester's locale and look like an oddball in Arkansas where the Duggars live. There's just such a variety in fine ways to live a peaceful, happy life; I've given up trying to compare or letting myself feel constantly inadequate. I might be inadequate for what my particular child needs, but my overall vision and goals are not inadequate, if that makes sense.

 

So yes, utterly admire Ester. Then go back and pat yourself a bit that you're probably fine too. :)

 

:iagree:Beautifully put, Elizabeth. It makes complete sense. Thank you!

[PeterPan]

Oh Ester, that gave me such a good laugh in agreement, lol! Truly, people only see one side of us, the side we project. (Or at least that's what we think.) And if we all let down our hair and shared how much we worry about this or that or our myriad failings, how fun would the board be? I think we come here for a bit of bolstering, to be reminded we DO know something or have learned something or are GROWING in our homeschooling and wisdom. Every time someone gets to help someone else, they get that pat on the back and realize that for themselves. I remember being at this stage where I was whining and going in circles (even more than usual, lol), and I told the person I was corresponding with I was afraid to chose lest I chose WRONG! No, that's not good grammar. But I think we all feel that growth in our souls, the gaining of confidence. We can admire someone and then not be afraid to diverge and make our own path that others may someday admire too. :)

 

BTW, I had a friend in college, a very nice, gracious friend, who had been educated in France and found americans uneducated by comparison. So I've known for a long time that there can be this huge disparity between what parts of the world are doing. Our trip last fall to Alaska was a real watershed moment for me in educational philosophy, because it made me wonder what's REALLY important. When it's just you and the earth and needing to live and be happy, what's important to you? I think for some people a certain form of education would really result in a lot of joy, something they'd take with them to the barrens of Alaska and be happy about. And for some people, it would be this bad experience, rotten pickles in a jar to be tossed aside.

 

Well I'm not sure why I'm rambling about this, lol. In any case, I enjoyed Ester's response. :)

[Crimson Wife]

I nominate Ester, OhElizabeth, 8FilltheHeart, Corraleno, etc. to contribute essays on education to a Wisdom of the Hive compilation book. I bet SWB would seriously consider publishing such a book through PHP. :D

[Jumping In Puddles]

I nominate Ester, OhElizabeth, 8FilltheHeart, Corraleno, etc. to contribute essays on education to a Wisdom of the Hive compilation book. I bet SWB would seriously consider publishing such a book through PHP. :D

 

And I would totally buy that book! :D

[PeterPan]

I do want the "whole deal" for my son :) The outgoing side able to communicate in an intelligent way, intelligence and knowledge which is needed to do that, and the end result of an adult who is able to achieve his "career and family life" that he wants. (And someone that won't think of college as the end of learning)

 

BUT, some of the things that Ester Maria has spoken about like sciences and maths running together... I would LOVE to figure out how to do that. It's pressure to know that I have this little boy who has gifts in this area, and I don't know how to do what I want for him. AND, our public schools are actually quite good, but they wouldn't get him where I want, either...

 

SO, I'll just keep reading... Maybe a good book about how to Teach Science in a full way. I was just looking at Science yesterday, and kinda freaking out! (Well, freaking out about Math, too :))

 

 

Ok, I forget how old your dc is/are, but could I say they WILL have limits? Whatever age you're at, you may be coming at that point where (like what happened with us) you finally figure out the difference between what you THOUGHT you could turn a dc into with proper teaching and what your dc IS going to turn into. In other words, you can't teach them and turn them into anything. They become who they are. Frankly, I think my dd is BETTER than what WTM envisions. Yup. My kid has LD's, and I think they give her gifts and strengths that make her BETTER than what she would have been if she could do all the things straight WTM (or the European education or anyone else) say. It's going from teaching a *theoretical* child to teaching a *specific* child, a human being, a soul, a person. This age, 10-12, is where it has come out really hard with us. Or perhaps my eye opening is because I'm slower to the draw than anyone else on the planet? Probably I'm more in the middle of the pack, lol, with some seeing it earlier and some later. So anyways, you're going to hit these walls you can't get over. You have to start thinking of them as trellises. ;)

 

Now on your quandry with the science and math, could I kindly suggest you get a high school level text in the subjects and just start learning? I knew a mom who never even finished high school but taught her kids through calculus. She just kept learning ahead of them. Get Conceptual Physics on interlibrary loan and start learning! Get a pre-algebra book and start working through it. Then keep going. When *you* know the material you're NOT going to find it so mystifying. I'm not the most astounding student ever, but I had just enough experience in high school that I'm not afraid to chose for her and help her move forward. If you want a higher level of thought and to see how they integrate or to be able to take the topics apart and present them a new way, again you need to have seen the things ahead of time. Start learning yourself. There is no textbook that does everything we want.

 

BTW, this book has been mentioned a little but it's worth mentioning again. "School of Dreams" by Humes. Lots to chew on in there, and it gives you a fuller picture of what happens in kids when you make these choices. For me it was helpful to hear the stories, see how choices and approaches worked out with different types of kids, and see where my dd would fall in that.

 

Kids this young don't necessarily track as well as we think. I tended to be interested in math and science through junior high and high school, put a lot of my energy there, but was tracked into humanities stuff in a gifted program one summer, something I totally rejected, thinking I was misplaced. In high school I did both. In college I started in science, fiddled in math, and eventually went humanities (lots of languages, linguistics, TESL, etc.). I wouldn't assume ANYTHING based on what you see in a kid this age. They could end up totally surprising you. Sometimes, just to mess around with my brain, I'll ask myself if the education I'm giving my history-loving, biography of Queen Elizabeth binging dd is adequate if she decides to pursue nursing (heavy on science) later, hehe. In all seriousness, she's empathetic and observant enough to and caring enough to enjoy it. It's a great career for a mother, with great pay and flexible hours. You just can't know.

 

Or maybe everyone else knows and I don't, hehe. I'm just saying we still stay pretty broad and open-minded.

 

Focus on your own education. The kids are usually pretty close to the parents in IQ, aren't they? I keep telling myself that. Someone told me dd is higher. I don't know, haven't had it tested yet. It means that what you can achieve, with hard work, is probably pretty close in thought process to what they need. At least that's what I keep telling myself. It's why I don't sweat if I can't teach and make connections as well as someone who is profoundly gifted or has pg kids. We aren't in this house. She only needs the level of teaching *I* have to give or maybe a fuzz more. :)

[PeterPan]

And I would totally buy that book! :D

 

Did you know if you go to the search feature and hit Advanced Search, you can search by a particular poster, mark it for posts (vs. threads), and narrow it down to particular boards? I've spent many a happy Friday night this way. I must have no life. :)

[yvonne]

:) Ok, so I guess that's the polite way of saying you're "not boarding" and trying to make sure I don't send my kid over with a note :)

 

WAIT!! Mine are already on the plane! :lol:

 

Ester's pure passion for Latin and languages shines through in her posts. I'd love for my children to be able to experience that in all of their subjects. I love Latin and literature, even math, but, alas, I did not pursue them to the extent I should have. A person with subject matter knowledge/expertise and contagious enthusiasm for teaching it to others---that would be my ideal teacher for my children!

 

I nominate Ester, OhElizabeth, 8FilltheHeart, Corraleno, etc. to contribute essays on education to a Wisdom of the Hive compilation book.

 

Brilliant idea!

 

Love to all of you who are on this same journey with your children!

yvonne

Edited May 1, 2011 by yvonne

[SonshineLearner]

Funny, Yvonne :) we must be thinking alike! I even use or have used your curriculum :) Too bad you're not over our way... we could experiment with the kids... together :)

[Ester Maria]

BUT, some of the things that Ester Maria has spoken about like sciences and maths running together... I would LOVE to figure out how to do that. It's pressure to know that I have this little boy who has gifts in this area, and I don't know how to do what I want for him. AND, our public schools are actually quite good, but they wouldn't get him where I want, either..

You really think I thought of all those things by myself? ;)

 

Part of my "secret" is that I extensively studied (Westen) school systems, what they incorporate and the way they organize things, studied their entire sequences, official standards, fleshing out of things, their textbooks (even if I often could not understand the language), everything I could get my hands on, and had extensive talks about their school experience with a lot of people from close to every European country. I have an interest in institutional education, as well as an interest in attempts to break off from it.

 

My thoughts about education in general are often a lot less rigid than I let on here, which frustrates me, but I cannot possibly address every aspect of everything when I write, because it would simply be too much (so it causes frictions, misunderstandings, etc.). The bottomline is, I did an extensive research, particularly regarding humanities, DH did so for sciences, I had a general idea of what are my "must" areas and how to go about it, but it was really the knowledge and experience of the whole European "village" (and a bit of American one, sure, plus I picked up a lot of things here) that helped me to flesh it all out and adapt to each child.

 

I modeled humanities largely after the Mediterranean / Mittel-European tradition of education, the legacy of classical lycees (with changing some things regarding classics themselves), and math and sciences largely after Eastern European school systems, which IMO are often brilliant in that aspect. From the Anglo-American educational tradition I took some other great things, such as AoPS-like approach :tongue_smilie: to what would normally be too "dry" in those Eastern European systems, the idea that the material should be organized the way the student "discovers" it (rather than matter-of-factish presentation), or such as an in-depth approach to interest areas that schools from that tradition allow, thus making the education not only the "tourist go-through" a certain "list" (which is a REAL danger in much of Europe if the program is not incorporated well), but making it more... humane, in a way. :lol: Which kids need, just as they need good fundamentals and a no-nonsense approach regarding some other things.

 

Finally, a lot of it depends on a particular child and to what they respond well - we cannot deny the "nature" element, as it is not all about "nurture" (as much as it is about nurture, of course). Different kids equals different needs.

 

And then there comes governmental involvement (or no), various "checkpoints" depending on where you are, our past two years of hectic life have been in-between several "fires" in that aspect, having to decide on the direction. All of that shapes you, your goals, how you approach education and what you include in it, even if you initially did not plan many things, as you must prepare your kids for several possible ways of schooling, locations of schooling, etc. Some of it is choice, a good and fairly educated choice even; some of it is necessity for a few possible goals and for compatibility with a few possible systems; some a weird mix of both.

 

And there I am rambling again. :lol: Sorry.

[SonshineLearner]

Hi Ester Maria,

No, I don't think that you thought of your entire schedule without outside sources :) I might think you incredibly brilliant :) but I do think you have outside models to use as resources :) I'm just planning right now, while knowing that we'll change as we go. But, I'm trying to figure out where I'd like him to end up, so that I have an "end goal" in mind. Of course I know that things get tweaked as you go.... that's life. Perhaps they get tweaked for the better... as opportunities open up, or I see another direction that is different than what I see now.

Hmmmm.... my son is in a line of engineers and seems to be going that direction.

I just have the "don't wanna steer him incorrectly" jitters... And I like what I saw in your thread about simultaneously going through maths and sciences... and thinking that it'd be more doable with someone else. (Of course, I can't find that thread, now...) Perhaps someone who had gone before me would be able to do him justice:)

(And yes, OhElizabeth, I understand the "educating oneself". I haven't done this fully, but I'm in the process. The problem is.. the more you know... of course.. the more you understand what you don't....)

:)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I nominate Ester, OhElizabeth, 8FilltheHeart, Corraleno, etc. to contribute essays on education to a Wisdom of the Hive compilation book. I bet SWB would seriously consider publishing such a book through PHP. :D

 

That could have some really wonderful chapters. Like iron sharpening iron.

 

I hope it would also include some of the stories of things gone wrong, like the chicken mummies that were eaten by cats, etc.

[Capt_Uhura]

I nominate Ester, OhElizabeth, 8FilltheHeart, Corraleno, etc. to contribute essays on education to a Wisdom of the Hive compilation book. I bet SWB would seriously consider publishing such a book through PHP. :D

 

:iagree: And KarenAnne, and Stacy in NJ

[AuntPol]

When I am feeling lazy, I search for threads by Esther Maria

When I am feeling trapped by the box, I search for threads by 8fillsthe heart and Correlano.

When I feel compelled to make a list, I look for Lori D

When I feel overwhelmed, I look to Oh Elizabeth and Elegant Lion.

 

and there are so many others -KarenAnne, Regentrude, 5 Little Monkeys, Swimmermom3, JennW, Karen in CO, justamouse, stripe, McConnellboys and a few others whose names will pop in my head once I go back upstairs to do more cleaning!

 

Of course, Capt Uhura holds my hand everyday (we're twin sisters separated at birth in case you didn't know :D) I would have given up many a day if she were not on my Yahoo IM list!

[Capt_Uhura]

 

Of course, Capt Uhura holds my hand everyday (we're twin sisters separated at birth in case you didn't know :D) I would have given up many a day if she were not on my Yahoo IM list!

 

Same here! :001_smile:

[PeterPan]

Yahoo IM list? Oh dear, I don't even know about this. But I suppose I don't need one more way to waste time. I've got my thread on the general board where I'm trying to learn about housecleaning. That should be enough, lol.

[AuntPol]

Oh, OhElizabeth (I've really been waiting for an excuse to say Oh Oh! LOL)-you can IM me any day! Just send me a PM to get IM name! (Ditto anyone else -just let me know so I know that you are a WTMer and not some pervert trying to have a sexy chat lol)

 

It's no special list, Captu Uhura and I've been chatting since my oldest was in public school Kindergarten and our sons were in preschool and we had no idea that we would one day be homeschooling! That way back when the WTM boards were rolling and hard to find anything and I rarely went to them. We've had a seven year chat that hasn't stopped. Seriously, she will send me an IM and I will reply about 3 hours later and then she will reply to that a few hours later. It's rare that we actually talk in "real" time.

[PeterPan]

Ok, dumb question. If you IM, what's the difference functionally between that and email? No clutter to delete? I have people I email with that often, haha, and boy do my inboxes get cluttered. But you're right, it is nice to stay connected with people. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

OHElizabeth....it's quite different from email. THings get lost in email and then you have to delete it. AuntPol and I always have our Yahoo IM windows open. I come down in the AM and send her a Good Morning lol. Then I start exercising. Some time later she wakes up and gets her coffee and sends me a Good morning. Then we chat for a bit before I hit the shower. If she's having a freakout, she can type it out and I can dash off a quick reply. Seriously, we've had an ongoing conversation for about 7years. She can send me something and I might not get it for 4hrs, but then I respond, and she'll get it and then she'll respond. IT's easy to scroll up and see what conversation we have going...often multiple conversations. You can send links as well. But if you close the window, you lose everything. That's good for when we're complaining about our DH's lol....no email trail. :lol:

 

And the phone is too disruptive. IM chat is quick, efficient.

[PeterPan]

Ahhh, I should do that with my dear honey! I just need to figure out if it works between mac and pc. You can tell, I'm clueless. But it would be sweet. :)

[AuntPol]

Ahhh, I should do that with my dear honey! I just need to figure out if it works between mac and pc. You can tell, I'm clueless. But it would be sweet. :)

 

It does! Capt Uhura is mac and I'm PC!

[PeterPan]

Thanks! :)

[Create Your Ritual]

 

I modeled humanities largely after the Mediterranean / Mittel-European tradition of education, the legacy of classical lycees (with changing some things regarding classics themselves), and math and sciences largely after Eastern European school systems, which IMO are often brilliant in that aspect. From the Anglo-American educational tradition I took some other great things, such as AoPS-like approach :tongue_smilie: to what would normally be too "dry" in those Eastern European systems, the idea that the material should be organized the way the student "discovers" it (rather than matter-of-factish presentation), or such as an in-depth approach to interest areas that schools from that tradition allow, thus making the education not only the "tourist go-through" a certain "list" (which is a REAL danger in much of Europe if the program is not incorporated well), but making it more... humane, in a way. :lol:

 

I would love to read more about all of this. Did you have specific sites you researched on, or books that have helped move you in this direction?

[Create Your Ritual]

I guess my next question would be - How do I figure out what direction I want to go? How do I self educate myself enough in what I want them to learn, and HOW I want them to learn it, so that I am not just grabbing whatever latest and greatest curriculum has come out for my kids each year. How do I figure out what my direction/philosophy/style is so that I am not floundering each year. Is there a post about this? A list? A book? Lots of books? How did you uncover the secret to the direction you chose?

 

I think I have found value in the progym exercises with the kids. I am trying to read books on Rhetoric so that I know where the 'finish line' is so to speak .. or at the very least what I am shooting for when it comes to writing skills.

 

I would love to know more about how to go from just reading the 4 stages of history & science and doing the work to actually giving the kids enough information that they can eventually discover on their own what part they are interested in and run with it. Obviously as they get older we will employ textbooks for various things, but that's not going to cut it. At this stage (late grammar & early logic) I sort of run out of ideas past reading the texts and bringing in reader books on the subject. It would just be so nice to understand where it is I want them to go .. see the path clearly in front of me .. so that I could just enjoy the journey a little more than I have this past year.

[Wee Pip]

I guess my next question would be - How do I figure out what direction I want to go? How do I self educate myself enough in what I want them to learn, and HOW I want them to learn it, so that I am not just grabbing whatever latest and greatest curriculum has come out for my kids each year. How do I figure out what my direction/philosophy/style is so that I am not floundering each year. Is there a post about this? A list? A book? Lots of books? How did you uncover the secret to the direction you chose?

 

 

Yes. I keep asking this same question. For me, it is a continual series of bunny trails: read this or that book, take what resonates with me, try to add that idea in somehow, experiment, fail miserably, pick up the next book... WTM isn't something I've implemented faithfully, but it is a book I always return to for reading and inspiration. Oh, and lists; I make lots and lots of lists. I'm always asking myself, paper & pen in hand, "what is the most important?" and "where do I want my children to be by age 18?" I'm constantly making lists, where many of the same items keep reappearing on the list. Many of the items on my list just aren't taught well in a curriculum (at least none I've found), which means I either need to ditch that ideal to use someone else's curric, or I need to create my own lesson plans in order to implement my list. My implementation is pretty lousy, though. This year has been terrible emotionally for me, homeschooling-wise. Each day I feel discouraged, and each day I pick myself up, dust my pant legs, and say "oh, well, try again tomorrow!" I'd love to soak in the wisdom from these other moms - if they only knew how sometimes they help pull me through my day and inspire me to stay on this road:)

[Ester Maria]

I would love to read more about all of this. Did you have specific sites you researched on, or books that have helped move you in this direction?

I had some first-hand experience via travel and our close friends' and relatives' experiences (and having been a guest student at schools in a few countries as a kid, as well as having done the same to my own kids), talked to a lot of real people (DH works in quite international circles), got a certain sample of textbooks and national programs from those people (I bet you can find a lot of that online with enough googling) and a lot of them sat patiently with me explaining to me the intricacies of their system, what was good and what was bad in their education. My "research" is certainly skewed though, as I did not have equal exposure to all areas and nearly all people I interviewed this way were educated in the very best their school systems have to offer (esp. in systems with tracking and multiple types of secondary schools), so I have little to no insights on the education as such, as a whole, in any country. I also talked to a lot of people who teach or taught within the school or university system.

 

Regarding theoretical literature, at some point pretty much went through relatively contemporary views, from Gatto to Liessmann, i.e. anyone who had something to say about the institutional education, plus there are also insights gained from fiction and biographies (esp. Zweig, Steiner, etc.). So a bit here and bit there, combined with some first-hand experience and knowing a lot of people, I created a sort of idea in my mind of what I want. I really recommend Liessmann if you have any reading knowledge of German, the book is written for broader public and is very reader-friendly (a complete absence of the typical "academic discourse"), yet it describes in quite a precision all things wrong with the PISA and standardization obsession, Bologna Process and European higher education reform, and has a few good remarks about education in general. Steiner and Zweig offer a sort of sentimental biographical view of their own educations, both are quite inspiring to many people. I was thoroughly disappointed in Gatto and grew to disagree with a heck lot of what he wrote, but for the American context specifically, one can extract more than few worthwhile thoughts. And then there are "classical" essays on education, from Montagine to Milton, there is just so much out there on this topic. Most modern scholarship in this area has been for the most part useless to me, though if you are interested in it, there are tons of research out there, you just need a library with JSTOR, Project Muse or any other electronic database of scholarly journals among which you can find those which deal with education and then search for stuff.

 

Of course, I had my own education as a starting point for much of that too, though I found certain gaps and areas of overemphasis and tried to tame those too. I mostly worked on reviewing reading lists and what the humanities education was modeled on, the approach to native language and literacy teaching (which I find crucial for many things), modern and classical languages, and general subjects such as Philosophy or History. Talking to people helps + comparing texts used. You do need to know at least a few European languages for that, though, and have some sort of idea about things you read about in those texts, otherwise it makes little sense to do it.

How do I figure out what direction I want to go? How do I self educate myself enough in what I want them to learn, and HOW I want them to learn it, so that I am not just grabbing whatever latest and greatest curriculum has come out for my kids each year. How do I figure out what my direction/philosophy/style is so that I am not floundering each year. Is there a post about this? A list? A book? Lots of books? How did you uncover the secret to the direction you chose?

The catch with these questions is that those are fundamentally ideological questions. You must be aware of that. It is extremely hard to speak of any kind of "objective right" or "objective wrong" when it comes to approaches or even goals themselves. Of course, I hold certain values and they influence how I see every other model I encounter in addition my own (for example, I consider a Finnish model a bad one and totally intellectually inferior to the Mittel European / Mediterranean tradition of education... while most of world is thrilled by it), but your ideas might not correspond to my own. You might wish something totally different.

 

How to figure out what you want... it is a process, I also had to tweak many of my initial ideas to my specific kids. At some point, the abstract becomes concrete so your goals get more clearer and many ideas are filtered out on the way. What is a really good idea is to be as aware as possible of the content (i.e. to have the best possible personal education you can have for yourself), because honestly, one cannot teach what one does not know. There are few better things you can do than investing in your own culture as on the road you will find yourself, more than doing "planned" stuff, simply transmitting to your children your own culture. Your own culture and education is your best ally, better than any curriculum out there. SWB emphasizes this point too, in recognizing the importance of parent's preparation for the upper school level before kids get there. If you have gaps in your education (and we all do), especially in areas which are important to you, you can really do a great service to everyone by working on your own education. Outsourcing is also great, once you form a clear idea of something you wish, but believe that you cannot give to your children - so rather than limiting children by your own education, outsourcing those particular areas is incredibly helpful. This is just to say that, as much as your individual culture matters, it will be limited in the upper years, and that is okay.

 

Start by asking yourself what is important to you in education. What type of education you want. Why do you want it. How does it fit with your values, lifestyle, family culture and how do you implement it best. All of this sounds terribly "general", but those general questions are exactly where you should start IMO.

[elegantlion]

I guess my next question would be - How do I figure out what direction I want to go? How do I self educate myself enough in what I want them to learn, and HOW I want them to learn it, so that I am not just grabbing whatever latest and greatest curriculum has come out for my kids each year. How do I figure out what my direction/philosophy/style is so that I am not floundering each year. Is there a post about this? A list? A book? Lots of books? How did you uncover the secret to the direction you chose?

 

I think I have found value in the progym exercises with the kids. I am trying to read books on Rhetoric so that I know where the 'finish line' is so to speak .. or at the very least what I am shooting for when it comes to writing skills.

 

I would love to know more about how to go from just reading the 4 stages of history & science and doing the work to actually giving the kids enough information that they can eventually discover on their own what part they are interested in and run with it. Obviously as they get older we will employ textbooks for various things, but that's not going to cut it. At this stage (late grammar & early logic) I sort of run out of ideas past reading the texts and bringing in reader books on the subject. It would just be so nice to understand where it is I want them to go .. see the path clearly in front of me .. so that I could just enjoy the journey a little more than I have this past year.

 

I like Ester Maria's words better, but I'll share what I've done. We started classical homeschooling in 5th grade, our 5th year. I read LCC and that gave me the desire and framework to start the journey. I knew to teach LCC style I needed to read what was recommended. I started with the high school recommendations and modified from there. I spent six months reading The Iliad. I loved it, I loved that I finished. I then started the Odyssey and realized something new, I'm a translation snob. I much prefer Lattimore's translations to what was recommended. It was the beginning of a formation of an opinion on education.

 

We read King Arthur last year and that started another love, Arthurian legends. I've read a lot on my own. Another tangent I discovered I was passionate about.

 

Meanwhile I'm still working on LCC high school recs. I started logic, found an interest in philosophy, found the Corbett book on rhetoric, and started making connections. The deeper I get into my own self-education the more value I see in a classical education.

 

I outlined a portion of Corbett's Classical Rhetoric and discussed it with ds today. I had listened to SWB's lecture on the teaching the real child, discovering my child needs to know the WHY of any subject before he'll truly comply with learning. So I discussed why a rhetoric book we won't get to until late high school was important for him today. We talked about how narration plays into rhetoric, logic, fallacies, even a working knowledge of Greek and Latin history. I applied it to his life as we talked about how being well versed in rhetoric can help him overcome peer pressure, how it could help him buy a house or a car in the future, even how it would help him in his quest to stay up later or get a new laptop.

 

I found what learning was pertinent to his life, if that makes sense. My own self-ed and direction has been swayed by his personality and what I see as his needs. He's a logical, emotional, talker, swift negotiating child. Logic and rhetoric training check. To teach, I feel like I need to see the connections for myself.

 

I started out thinking I need to read/study everything I put before my child. I still read a lot ahead. Now I'm looking at the whys of many things. I cherish many people on the high school board who have forced me to examine my belief on many subjects. I never want to follow a course of study blindly, because that's what all homeschoolers do. I am a filter. I take what is available, filter it out, transform it, etc, and make it work in the best way for my family. Most of it starts with really knowing your child. Paying attention to their spoken and unspoken needs, having a goal for the end part of their education. Mama Lynx had a wonderful blog post this week about goals.

 

It honestly took me a few years to figure out where I ultimately wanted us to end up. There are some things I feel are vital for my son, some things we've opted to let go. I might have made different choices with another child. Ds hasn't quite reached me on the enthusiasm level, he's a normal teen boy who'd rather sleep or eat or play video games. But he responds to my passion and my interest. He knows (because I tell him constantly) that I have a goal for his education and because I love him so much I will guide him toward, sometimes with a little kick in the behind.

 

Okay, now I'm rambling.

Edited May 5, 2011 by elegantlion

[Rosie_0801]

I guess my next question would be - How do I figure out what direction I want to go? How do I self educate myself enough in what I want them to learn, and HOW I want them to learn it, so that I am not just grabbing whatever latest and greatest curriculum has come out for my kids each year. How do I figure out what my direction/philosophy/style is so that I am not floundering each year. Is there a post about this? A list? A book? Lots of books? How did you uncover the secret to the direction you chose?

 

Being naturally opinionated helps :D

 

I started out by reading WTM and drawing up tables in a word document with grade levels down the side and subjects across the top. Then I set about filling in the table with resources. Also on that document I have lists of resources that sound useful or too good to miss, not to mention an amazon wishlist of over 70 pages...

I continued by reading these sorts of threads and UN agency job adverts. Dh was looking for work at the time, so I sort of stumbled over them and they gave me an idea on what our governments buzz line, "a global education," could really mean in practical terms.

 

As for self educating, it quickly became apparent that I need to self educate in pretty much everything so I started with grammar because that was the gap that irritated me most. I thought about the rest and it seemed the only other topic I could make any progress on while predominantly existing as a sleep deprived zombie was literature. So I wouldn't make the progress I'd like to make, as I would if I were properly awake, but some experience of these books would be better than no experience of them. Over a year later, I'm starting Latin because I am so terrible at languages that aren't signed so I will need a good few years head start on my kids. Preferably ten :rolleyes: I can't do everything, but I am doing better than nothing.

 

I am trying to read books on Rhetoric so that I know where the 'finish line' is so to speak ..

Yeah. I have figured out where I think the finish line should be and while I don't expect my kids to share my goals/dreams/whatever you call whatever is sitting on the finish line, it is a worthy goal and is the biggest thing I can imagine, so it will do well as a lighthouse to guide us. Eventually this will morph into a plan tailored to the children I actually have, but they are still preschoolers. I can't tailor a K-12 education to kids who can't even talk yet. Dreams will find a compromise with reality when the time comes.

 

I would love to know more about how to go from just reading the 4 stages of history & science and doing the work to actually giving the kids enough information that they can eventually discover on their own what part they are interested in and run with it.

Information? Do you mean skills? They need to be literate, they need your support in locating information, they need to be interested and they need their parents to be interested enough that they can listen and ask sensible questions. You can teach them to be literate. You can learn to navigate journal databases and such. You may or may not be able to drum up an interest in their passions, but you can listen to enough that you'll be able to make appropriate comments :D If you are interested in the world around you, it will probably rub off on your kids.

 

My mum quit school the day she turned 15 and has a mental illness, but it didn't matter what I had to say, she could say "oh, I was just talking to someone about that the other day" and ask a relevant question. If I was having trouble explaining something, she'd say "Ah yes, I know what you mean, I read an article in Readers Digest about that the other week." And she'd be able to coax my thoughts into enough order that I'd be able to verbalise it properly. I was also lucky enough to have a grandfather who would say "Oh, really? I've never heard of that before." Poor Grandpa didn't know ANYTHING, yet he played a big part in training me to be interested and to care. It's a great antidote to the world around you to have a Grandpa who can convincingly act as though everything you say is an inspiring revelation :D

 

Rosie

Edited May 5, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Create Your Ritual]

I love all of your responses. Thank you so much for expanding your thoughts and allowing me to see a bit into each of your lives. I can definitely see a pattern forming of self education being incredibly important. Being a step ahead of them so to speak, and finding what "I" want to learn about science, math, history, latin, etc. Being interested in the subjects I am teaching and playing an active roll will encourage them. I can see this already when I am working through Language Arts (something I am more passionate about) and their faces are lit up because I am acting something out for them.

 

I too was educated overseas in a British school system in Bermuda for 5 years up until 6th grade. Those years are what led me to teach a 4 year old to read, because she showed interest and was ready. It was also those years that led me to believe that kids really could study foreign languages, as back then we would begin with French and then by the next year add in Spanish and so on. I also learned the value of dictation and copywork first hand under their instruction. These were all the reasons that I ultimately decided to homeschool my own children, but I think this first year out I just got overwhelmed by the multitude of directions and choices to take. I began blindly staring, wandering aimlessly through the 'toothpaste aisle' of curriculum options. That is why I appreciate these posts so much. They give me a direction to move in. They ultimately tell me that I am ONLY going to find out by educating myself first.

[8filltheheart]

I love all of your responses. Thank you so much for expanding your thoughts and allowing me to see a bit into each of your lives. I can definitely see a pattern forming of self education being incredibly important. ......I am teaching and playing an active roll will encourage them.

 

That is why I appreciate these posts so much. They give me a direction to move in. They ultimately tell me that I am ONLY going to find out by educating myself first.

 

 

SaDonna,

 

I do not have the ability to keep up with all of my children. It is physical impossibility. I do not have the time to read every book that 4 different kids are reading, all of the sciences, histories, etc.

 

My approach is one I gleaned from the Ignatian philosophy of education called prelection. My approach is definitely is a modified version, but it works.

 

Here is a link to an article on prelection: http://school.jhssac.org/faculty/cheneym/documents/Section_13__FOUR_HALLMARKS_OF_JESUIT_EDUCATION.pdf

 

]The most characteristic of all Jesuit techniques is

the prelection, “... the preview, conducted by the

teacher with the active cooperation of the class, of

every class assignment.” It should be clearly

understood that the prelection is not a lecture; it is

essentially a co-operative effort which elicits the

interested activity of the students. Moreover, the

use of the prelection is not confined to the classics;

it is adaptable to any subject matter. (MANUAL p.

173)

PURPOSES OF PRELECTION

Fr. Allan Farrell in the Jesuit Educational Quarterly

(March, 1943);2 lists some of the aims for a prelection:

* To awaken the interest of the student in the

subject matter;

* To set precise and attainable objectives for the

assignment;

*To point out more important or complicated

phases of study;

*To suggest problems to be studied for review or

discussion or judgment.

 

 

I spend my summer previewing what they will be studying. As I write their lesson plans, I again review the topics. I try to be engaged in the generalities of the "whats" but not down into the details of every subject. I select certain items during the yr that I make sure that I become fully engaged in. (well for high school anyway, I guess I am fully engaged constantly in the younger yrs.)

 

I find the significance of prelection is that I need to know the purpose behind their assignments in order to be able to be engaged with them as as students. I learned this after I bought all Kolbe curriculum one yr. I relied too much on the pre-fab plans and my dd's education actually suffered for it. I was too disengaged in the process to be of real "teacher" value. I have to be active in the planning process for that to happen. Give me pre-made plans and the laziness of not engaging when there are a zillion other things I could be doing takes root.

[Create Your Ritual]

8FilltheHeart - I think what you are talking about, and the way in which you are doing it, is self educating. At least to the extent that I would probably be able to do it. ;-) It does give me pause to realize that as long as I have a sense of the direction they are moving in, then I can engage actively in the areas that interest me while also moving them forward in all their subjects.

 

I would imagine YOUR previewing a lesson would encompass much more than I have learned how to do at this point. ;-)

 

I think my issues has been FINDING all the things to preview. Being able to self educate enough to know when I choose a direction it is for a specific reason, a plan that I have in mind for down the road. Those are the resources I need now .. so the 'panic' can dissipate and I can spend the time knowing the road we are on and engaging more in the mindful 'previewing of material' than in the aimless wandering and WONDERING about their futures.

 

When I read all of this (and thank you for your link) it is actually encouraging. I am a smart woman. I CAN do this. I am gaining a lot of wisdom from others, more articulate than I, that have gone before me. I want their education to be purposeful, and I just don't want to spend all of my time trying to 'find' the magic pill. I know there will always be digging and reading and such, I just feel like I am still in the exploratory stages of it and want to know what the Hive Minds have found value in when it comes to finding the direction to move their child in.

 

There are days where I am in absolute awe at the materials you all come up with. The resources are things I have never heard of. For me finding out how to get to those materials, the resources and writings that may give me pause to think about what I want to create for them, is my current dilemma. Some of these books are ANCIENT ... where do you learn about them? How do you find them? ;-) It just boggles my mind. ;-)

[Capt_Uhura]

 

 

It honestly took me a few years to figure out where I ultimately wanted us to end up. There are some things I feel are vital for my son, some things we've opted to let go. I might have made different choices with another child. Ds hasn't quite reached me on the enthusiasm level, he's a normal teen boy who'd rather sleep or eat or play video games. But he responds to my passion and my interest. He knows (because I tell him constantly) that I have a goal for his education and because I love him so much I will guide him toward, sometimes with a little kick in the behind.

 

Okay, now I'm rambling.

 

Hey, girlfriend, keep rambling....You're speaking to my heart. I have Corbett's book on deck for the summer. Can you give specifics about what you told your DS about rhetoric and why it's important?

[Create Your Ritual]

Yes Elegantlion, I would have to ditto that! I love your ramblings.

[Create Your Ritual]

I am starting to think I should be asking everyone what is on their summer education reading list? What are you going to be studying?

 

I am also beginning to think I need my own file of printed WTM posts that I am rapidly amassing. This info is too good to NOT print!

[Capt_Uhura]

 

 

The catch with these questions is that those are fundamentally ideological questions. You must be aware of that. It is extremely hard to speak of any kind of "objective right" or "objective wrong" when it comes to approaches or even goals themselves. Of course, I hold certain values and they influence how I see every other model I encounter in addition my own (for example, I consider a Finnish model a bad one and totally intellectually inferior to the Mittel European / Mediterranean tradition of education... while most of world is thrilled by it), but your ideas might not correspond to my own. You might wish something totally different.

 

 

 

Ester Maria - Would you mind expanding on this in another thread perhaps or a PM if you prefer? I don't know a lot of details about the Finnish outside of what I've read in NYT etc but I'm interested in your thoughts about. I know many think highly of it. I know nothing of Mittel Europen/Medit tradition so if you could expand on that, I'm all :bigear:.

[Create Your Ritual]

SaDonna,

 

My approach is one I gleaned from the Ignatian philosophy of education called prelection. My approach is definitely is a modified version, but it works.

 

Here is a link to an article on prelection: http://school.jhssac.org/faculty/cheneym/documents/Section_13__FOUR_HALLMARKS_OF_JESUIT_EDUCATION.pdf

 

I just wanted to say thank you for this link. I am working my way through it. I felt like the methods they were using in the prelection would be very valuable in going through a source or text to outline it and pull important information out.

 

One of the items I ran across really hit home -

 

WE LEARN...

10% of what we read;

20% of what we hear;

30% of what we see;

50% of what we see and hear;

70% of what is discussed with others;

80% of what we experience personally;

95% of what we teach.

 

Can I ask are you using the methods described in prelection just to preview material yourself, or are these methods taught to the student as well in how to approach a text or source?

[elegantlion]

Hey, girlfriend, keep rambling....You're speaking to my heart. I have Corbett's book on deck for the summer. Can you give specifics about what you told your DS about rhetoric and why it's important?

 

Yes Elegantlion, I would have to ditto that! I love your ramblings.

 

This is the rough outline from Corbett's book that I shared with ds.

 

 

 

 

Introduction: Five part of a discourse

I. Invention - Inspiration

A. Rational (logos)

B. Emotional (pathos)

C. Ethical (ethos)

II. Dispositio - Organization

A. Introduction

B. The Statement of the case

C. Proof of the Case

D. Conclusion

III. Elecutio - Style

A. low style/plain - instructing

B. middle style/forcible- moving

C. high/florid - charming

IV. Memoria - memorizing

A. Memory trained through constant practice

V. Pronuntiatio - delivery

A. concern for management of voice and gestures

B. Three kinds of persuasive discourse

i. deliberative oratory (future)

ii. forensic oratory (past)

iii. Epideictic oratory (present)

 

Why Rhetoric?

Four conventions of discourse

I. exposition

II. argumentation

III. description

IV. Narration

 

Three Arts of Language

I. grammar

II. logic

III. rhetoric

 

Basically I shared examples from real life about each of these areas of discourse. I shared how being well versed in logic/rhetoric could be helpful in real life situations, how he could spot faulty logic, even how he could use skills of argumentation to avoid peer pressure. (We took a few tangents :tongue_smilie:)

 

I shared examples from my life where I could have made better decisions if I'd been able to think more critically. Also if I had been able to see through the BS I was being handed. I talked about rhetoric being a tool for real life.

 

What the Corbett book is doing for me is helping me understand all of these tools of classical education. After reading I can see where formal logic fits, where narration does, and how Classical Writing is laid out (although it didn't work for us).

 

I'm trying to break down the book and see where all of these writing program I already own can fit into the process. It makes WTM make sense, but outlining texts doesn't work for my son, so I have forge my own path.

 

Our budget is tight and I already own several writing programs. Through the summer I hope to break the Corbett text apart further so I can build a custom writing program for ds. Best 1.79 I've spent in a long time. :D

 

Don't know if any of that was helpful, but writing is my nemesis. I've always been good at (message boards being the exception), and ds has struggled with it. That makes it harder to teach.

[8filltheheart]

One of the items I ran across really hit home -

 

WE LEARN...

10% of what we read;

20% of what we hear;

30% of what we see;

50% of what we see and hear;

70% of what is discussed with others;

80% of what we experience personally;

95% of what we teach.

 

Can I ask are you using the methods described in prelection just to preview material yourself, or are these methods taught to the student as well in how to approach a text or source?

 

I mainly use prelection for my previewing materials. However, what you posted is pretty much true. How many times do we understand something but when we try to explain it to someone else, we find it difficult to do?

 

I make assignments for my kids that work through the same concepts but in a different approach---Bloom's taxonomy. http://krummefamily.org/guides/bloom.html

 

FWIW, it is why I think "independent" learning is limiting. It takes interaction to move to a higher level whether you are looking at it from Jesuit philosophy or Bloom's. ;)

[ChrisB]

Ester Maria - Would you mind expanding on this in another thread perhaps or a PM if you prefer? I don't know a lot of details about the Finnish outside of what I've read in NYT etc but I'm interested in your thoughts about. I know many think highly of it. I know nothing of Mittel Europen/Medit tradition so if you could expand on that, I'm all :bigear:.

 

:iagree: