Azalea Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 "The real reason the good mothers are so rattled by Amy Chua" by Caitlin Flanagan http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2011/04/the-ivy-delusion/8397/ I'm still thinking about this one...Azalea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 So interesting and thought-provoking. Thank you for sharing that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLG Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Interesting to learn that up to 60% of the Freshman spaces are filled by either legacy or underprivileged and that the remaining 40% are selected in order to bring UP the academic strength of the class. Thanks for posting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 How fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlugbill Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I thought the article was good, right up until the end when it came to the conclusion that you either have to have a miserable, abusive childhood and get into Yale or have a fun time and have no chance at a top college. I don't see enough evidence that this is the case. A false dichotomy in my view. I think if you asked many of the students at top colleges, they would not say that they had miserable, abusive childhoods. They probably did have involved parents though who held them to high standards. I understand very well the Chinese parenting perspective. My daughter's best friends are Chinese-American and I spent a year teaching English in Taiwan. We also know a lot of Chinese-Americans because my daughter is very involved in violin and classical music and that seems to attract a lot of Chinese. I appreciate the cultural differences and I think they have some very valid points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Interesting. My dh is an Ivy League alum; one of my cousins is an Ivy League alum. My dh knew where he wanted to go to school and he got in there -- his dad gave him a really difficult time about it b/c his dad wanted him to go to Rutgers (yes, New Brunswick -- I had to laugh out loud at that in the article). In NJ, if one of your parents is a school teacher, you get a free ride at Rutgers -- dh's dad was a high school teacher and could not understand why dh would choose an Ivy League school (dh was accepted into both Ivy League schools to which he applied) over Rutgers. :001_huh: My dd who is now 30 graduated Rutgers and went on to med school. She desperately wanted to go to Princeton but with all her high school hi-jinks, that wasn't going to happen. DD32 didn't want to go to Princeton but she oculd have. As for our three at home (11 yrs old and 10 yr old twins), they can go wherever they like -- and I really hope they would like to go to Princeton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Interesting article! Thanks for posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalea Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Interesting to learn that up to 60% of the Freshman spaces are filled by either legacy or underprivileged and that the remaining 40% are selected in order to bring UP the academic strength of the class. Thanks for posting! I agree that this is an interesting and sobering statistic. I plan to share this with my husband. He seems convinced that our kids have to attend a selective college for undergrad. I'm not sure that it will be possible or necessary. I mean we will certainly try and aim high, but I don't want my kids to think less of themselves if they don't make it or we can't pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 ....huh. Good article. Not sure if I agree, but a very good article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I think she is RIGHT ON. Moms in my area love the movie she refers to. Life IS a series of choices. Kids ARE strong and resiliant. Thanks for posting this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops, duplicate account :/ Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Very thought provoking. Thanks for posting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali in OR Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Maybe the Ivy Delusion is thinking that your child needs to go to an Ivy League school to have the best life possible. I just don't buy into that, and I went to the west coast Ivy! If you don't get aid, you pay an awful lot of money. You are around pretty amazing people, but you may not actually get amazing teaching. Many of those brilliant professors are more interested in research than teaching. Many of my courses were taught by graduate students. I remember being a little jealous of the quality of my sister's classes at her smaller easier-to-get-in-to school. Perhaps if I wanted a hard-driving professional career the name of the school on my diploma would have been more important. But moving to Oregon with my engineering degree, I worked primarily with people who went to the state school here. The name of the local school really has as much clout with employers as the big name schools. Maybe more so if the hiring manager is an alum of the local school! If my kids get no merit aid, I really think it would be difficult to justify taking on a huge amount of debt to go to any Ivy-type school. Am I the only one who thinks this way? I kind of thought with the recent debt crisis in our country that more people would begin to appreciate the value of a state school education--at least if you have a decent state university system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RecumbentHeart Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Maybe the Ivy Delusion is thinking that your child needs to go to an Ivy League school to have the best life possible. I just don't buy into that, and I went to the west coast Ivy! If you don't get aid, you pay an awful lot of money. You are around pretty amazing people, but you may not actually get amazing teaching. Many of those brilliant professors are more interested in research than teaching. Many of my courses were taught by graduate students. I remember being a little jealous of the quality of my sister's classes at her smaller easier-to-get-in-to school. Perhaps if I wanted a hard-driving professional career the name of the school on my diploma would have been more important. But moving to Oregon with my engineering degree, I worked primarily with people who went to the state school here. The name of the local school really has as much clout with employers as the big name schools. Maybe more so if the hiring manager is an alum of the local school! If my kids get no merit aid, I really think it would be difficult to justify taking on a huge amount of debt to go to any Ivy-type school. Am I the only one who thinks this way? I kind of thought with the recent debt crisis in our country that more people would begin to appreciate the value of a state school education--at least if you have a decent state university system. No, you're not the only one who thinks this way. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The article assumes, of course, that the most important things a person can be are highly smart and educated in the Ivy League, two assumptions that I definitely don't believe to be true. If all I cared about was getting my dd into Harvard, I probably would raise her like a drill sergeant, but I couldn't care less where she goes to college as long as she's a kind, thoughtful person who enjoys learning for its own sake. Also, all those Ivy League grads who can't find a job and have six figures of debt are probably wishing they'd gone to the local community college and studied welding right about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildiris Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Awesome conclusion! "...life is a series of choices, each with its own rewards and consequences.In a sense, that is the most unpalatable message of her book, the one that has caused all the anguish: it’s an unwelcome reminder (how can we keep forgetting this?) that the world really doesn’t lie before us like a land of dreams. At best—at the very best—it can only offer us choices between two good things, and as we grasp at one, we lose the other forever." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoMom Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Just the word professional parent makes me ROFL. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Maybe the Ivy Delusion is thinking that your child needs to go to an Ivy League school to have the best life possible. I just don't buy into that, and I went to the west coast Ivy! If you don't get aid, you pay an awful lot of money. You are around pretty amazing people, but you may not actually get amazing teaching. Many of those brilliant professors are more interested in research than teaching. Many of my courses were taught by graduate students. I remember being a little jealous of the quality of my sister's classes at her smaller easier-to-get-in-to school. Perhaps if I wanted a hard-driving professional career the name of the school on my diploma would have been more important. But moving to Oregon with my engineering degree, I worked primarily with people who went to the state school here. The name of the local school really has as much clout with employers as the big name schools. Maybe more so if the hiring manager is an alum of the local school! If my kids get no merit aid, I really think it would be difficult to justify taking on a huge amount of debt to go to any Ivy-type school. Am I the only one who thinks this way? I kind of thought with the recent debt crisis in our country that more people would begin to appreciate the value of a state school education--at least if you have a decent state university system. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissymama Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The article assumes, of course, that the most important things a person can be are highly smart and educated in the Ivy League, two assumptions that I definitely don't believe to be true. If all I cared about was getting my dd into Harvard, I probably would raise her like a drill sergeant, but I couldn't care less where she goes to college as long as she's a kind, thoughtful person who enjoys learning for its own sake. I agree. The number one goal dh and I have for our children is that they are happy, whatever that means to them. We do think education is important, and we will strive to give them the best education possible, but, by no means, do we think that an Ivy League education is a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicAnn Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I like this summary of Chua's philosophy "kids are inherently strong, not weak; self-esteem derives from accomplishing difficult and worthwhile pursuits; adults are better than children at judging what does and does not constitute a valuable or enriching experience; the better you get at something, the more you will enjoy doing it; and a great deal of what is on offer to American teenagers these days is not only coarsening but downright dangerous. " there is a lot of think about. The whole Ivy thing seems to be written about every college acceptance time. I read where some kids with Ivy education are embarrassed about them when they have to take ordinary jobs out of college. They get teased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Maybe the Ivy Delusion is thinking that your child needs to go to an Ivy League school to have the best life possible. I just don't buy into that, and I went to the west coast Ivy! If you don't get aid, you pay an awful lot of money. You are around pretty amazing people, but you may not actually get amazing teaching. Many of those brilliant professors are more interested in research than teaching. Many of my courses were taught by graduate students. I remember being a little jealous of the quality of my sister's classes at her smaller easier-to-get-in-to school. Perhaps if I wanted a hard-driving professional career the name of the school on my diploma would have been more important. But moving to Oregon with my engineering degree, I worked primarily with people who went to the state school here. The name of the local school really has as much clout with employers as the big name schools. Maybe more so if the hiring manager is an alum of the local school! If my kids get no merit aid, I really think it would be difficult to justify taking on a huge amount of debt to go to any Ivy-type school. Am I the only one who thinks this way? I kind of thought with the recent debt crisis in our country that more people would begin to appreciate the value of a state school education--at least if you have a decent state university system. Great post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Caitlin Flanagan implied in her article that legacy admits to elite schools are significantly less qualified than non-legacy admits. This is untrue. The average SAT scores at Harvard for legacies is a mere 2 points lower than the one for non-legacy admits and at Yale and Stanford, legacy admits are actually MORE academically qualified on average than non-legacy admits. FWIW, I did not attend the Ivy to which I was admitted as a legacy but rather one of its peers where I was a non-legacy. If she really wants to get all up in arms about unqualified students receiving special preferences, she needs to direct her ire at (A) "development" admits (i.e. the scions of uberwealthy families who have made or are expected to make 6- or 7-figure donations) and (B) athletes. The two absolutely dumbest people I knew at college were a trustee's kid and a football player. Edited March 17, 2011 by Crimson Wife fixed typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 This. It's why I guess I could be considered both a Tiger Mother and a "Good Mother". It's a lie that kids can have it both ways. I am one of those middle class professionals who believes my kids will have a happier life if they are college educated. I can't say I personally am deeply invested in seeing them in a top school, but I am very personally invested in seeing them in SOME school, doing well there, graduating and moving on to a self-sufficient life. For some of us (but not all, I realize), homeschooling is about offering our children a good, inexpensive education that is an outgrowth of a loving relationship with their own parent. My friends whose kids are in school believe that their social life is more important than their education. THIS is where the choices begin-they have chosen to prioritize their child's social life over their education (I guess, unless they actually believe their kids are getting a better education in ps). "There's a desperate desire on the part of the good mothers to believe that all of the kids who grow up in this system are little robots, but they're not." I think Amy Chua has exposed our cultural beliefs beautifully in this book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Just the word professional parent makes me ROFL. :lol: I thought she meant professional-class parenting to describe their socio-economic status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Race to Nowhere is a big hit in all the wealthy suburban schools right now around here. :D It's a big game of, "No, you go first." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Awesome conclusion! "...life is a series of choices, each with its own rewards and consequences.In a sense, that is the most unpalatable message of her book, the one that has caused all the anguish: it’s an unwelcome reminder (how can we keep forgetting this?) that the world really doesn’t lie before us like a land of dreams. At best—at the very best—it can only offer us choices between two good things, and as we grasp at one, we lose the other forever." :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tearose Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Hmm, well I live in such an itty bitty place where attending one of the state universities is such a big thing what the article spoke of is out of my experience. Dh and I are from poverty. We have professional degrees but have obviously not shaken off our working class world view. And I still think I'm a good mother. Yale? Really? We'll be happy if they are not incarcerated and not living in our basement.:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Goldwater Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Maybe the Ivy Delusion is thinking that your child needs to go to an Ivy League school to have the best life possible. I just don't buy into that, and I went to the west coast Ivy! If you don't get aid, you pay an awful lot of money. You are around pretty amazing people, but you may not actually get amazing teaching. Many of those brilliant professors are more interested in research than teaching. Many of my courses were taught by graduate students. I remember being a little jealous of the quality of my sister's classes at her smaller easier-to-get-in-to school. Perhaps if I wanted a hard-driving professional career the name of the school on my diploma would have been more important. But moving to Oregon with my engineering degree, I worked primarily with people who went to the state school here. The name of the local school really has as much clout with employers as the big name schools. Maybe more so if the hiring manager is an alum of the local school! If my kids get no merit aid, I really think it would be difficult to justify taking on a huge amount of debt to go to any Ivy-type school. Am I the only one who thinks this way? I kind of thought with the recent debt crisis in our country that more people would begin to appreciate the value of a state school education--at least if you have a decent state university system. :iagree: I think it's hilarious all the people who believe that the Ivy League undergrad diploma versus the qualified state school diploma is worth an extra $150K.:lol::lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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