Cremation

[Peek a Boo]

Well, if doing as Jesus did is the standard, who cares where you are located because you will only be there 3 days!

 

LOL!

 

and Spy Car, since scripture says buried, that's what we go with. Could have been an underground tomb..... ;)

[Peek a Boo]

I thought we agreed that according to the bible stories he wasn't buried.

 

did I agree that's what the Bible stories say? :confused:

 

it says.... "according to Jewish burial customs"

 

 

[eta: John 19:40 ]

 

Sounds more "right" than offering up a match to someone who professes to like fire :D

 

Bill

 

LOL! i do like matches. ;)

Edited March 9, 2011 by Peek a Boo

[Spy Car]

LOL!

 

and Spy Car, since scripture says buried, that's what we go with. Could have been an underground tomb..... ;)

 

The Bible doesn't say he was buried. It says he was wrapped in linen and placed in a tomb (or sepulchre) cut out of rock, and sealed in with a rock.

 

Entombed yes, buried no.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Matthew 27:59-60 KJV

 

And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

 

And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

[Peek a Boo]

The Bible doesn't say he was buried. It says he was wrapped in linen and placed in a tomb (or sepulchre) cut out of rock, and sealed in with a rock.

 

Entombed yes, buried no.

 

Bill

 

 

John 19:40 specifically mentions in accordance with burial customs and other scripture specifically states BURIED. It's an easy search. I promise.

 

entombed. buried. burial practices. in a tomb.

 

now if you wanna talk about "under the earth" we can always look at

 

"And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed†(Matthew 27:57-60).

 

carved out of the earth itself. makes sense to me. ;)

[Spy Car]

John 19:40 specifically mentions in accordance with burial customs and other scripture specifically states BURIED. It's an easy search. I promise.

 

entombed. buried. burial practices. in a tomb.

 

now if you wanna talk about "under the earth" we can always look at

 

"And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed†(Matthew 27:57-60).

 

carved out of the earth itself. makes sense to me. ;)

 

Wrapping a body in linen is how Jews prepared dead bodies, it does not say Jesus was "buried" in the sense that we bury people 6 feet-under. The bible story is clear he was placed in a cave-like tomb.

 

Bill

[Peek a Boo]

Wrapping a body in linen is how Jews prepared dead bodies, it does not say Jesus was "buried" in the sense that we bury people 6 feet-under. The bible story is clear he was placed in a cave-like tomb.

 

Bill

 

it doesn't have to be the same.

That WAS their burial.

 

scripture elsewhere talks about His burial, and there's no evidence that this tomb wasn't in the earth.

might have even been under 6 feet of rock. ;)

[keptwoman]

:iagree: We had to cause a scene to be *allowed* to see my brother once the morgue released him to the funeral home. They acted like it wasn't acceptable until they had him *presentable*. They tried to dictate how we did everything until we blew. It's truly ridiculous the amount of power they try to claim and then they try to say it's because they care.

Can you imagine then the scene when I told them I wanted my (autopsied) mother on the bed in my living room without her coffin. You'd think I'd asked for them to stand her in the street outside to wave to the passers by! Fortunately I knew my rights, and I told them that I owned her body and that they had to do as I said as long as it was within the law. But really, when you've just had a loss like that, only 4 years after Dad, you can really do without distressing arguments with funeral directors. My relatives laid a formal complaint with them about the way I was treated.

[unsinkable]

Can you imagine then the scene when I told them I wanted my (autopsied) mother on the bed in my living room without her coffin. You'd think I'd asked for them to stand her in the street outside to wave to the passers by! Fortunately I knew my rights, and I told them that I owned her body and that they had to do as I said as long as it was within the law. But really, when you've just had a loss like that, only 4 years after Dad, you can really do without distressing arguments with funeral directors. My relatives laid a formal complaint with them about the way I was treated.

 

:grouphug:

[lionfamily1999]

It is not illegal for a family member to clean and dress the body. I'm not sure about moving a body--there might be laws about that. And (as you wrote), it's not required that a body be embalmed.

 

There are some rules about burying bodies, but I'm pretty sure that by law, it's even legal for you to bury a body on your property as long as you follow guidelines about things like depth.

 

The funeral industry has us all convinced that only THEY can do ANYthing with the body and that you MUST have a viewing in THIER parlor, the body HAS to be embalmed, and then buried in a vacuum sealed coffin on THEIR plots. And each step of the way costs Lots and Lots of Money.

I had no idea.

Something I've been pondering a lot lately, with all the religion talk on these boards lately... I think misunderstandings like this happen fairly often when we're looking at other's traditions that we're not familiar with. What is seen by an "insider" as a natural extention of their beliefs/faith tradition/cultural tradition/whathaveyou, with absolutely no judgement or condemnation implied to those who don't value those same things, can look like "judgement and rules" to someone unfamiliar with the deeper meanings behind the surface explainations of "We do/don't do these things."

 

It's helped me keep a cooler head when listening to others explain their beliefs that might make me feel like they judge me for mine. It's also helped me try to be more clear in explaining what MY beliefs are, so that there's minimal misunderstanding. (of course you can't prevent ALL misunderstanding, but an ounce of prevention and all that... :tongue_smilie: )

I'm not an insider, but I will definitely keep this in mind.

Dear LionFamily--

As your post is under mine, I want to make sure that I have not written defensively or been offensive in my writing. If what I *said* is offensive by its nature, I can't help that. But if I was offensive in the way I said it, will you please let me know, and please forgive me. I need to know so I can write it better.

Kind regards,

Patty Joanna

Not at all! I was responding to Aubrey :)

Oh, I'm so sorry. No, I read an article a month or more ago, & it's been eating at me. My primary question was supposed to be if I'd understood it correctly: from what's been said here, I hadn't.

 

Parishioners anointing the body themselves & placing it in a hand-made pine box? Gosh, that's almost exactly how I told dh I thought it should be, way back when we got married.

 

I don't believe in special treatment, so if my treatment of my father's body was sin according to EO, I want a person to be straight with me--that's why I didn't mention that in the OP; I don't want anything sugar-coated. I can't feel badly about it, even if I were to convert, because neither he nor I nor the family had these beliefs at the time. But still...if I were to ever MYSELF come to believe it was not the most respectful choice...that would still be a painful conclusion.

 

Patty Joanna's posts, though, seem to offer another view, that is less about right and wrong but love. That would seem to imply that although an EO person would not make that choice, & perhaps I wouldn't make it again after this conversation, my choice to have dad cremated was made out of love, & therefore is ok. Maybe.

 

Again, though, I'm so sorry I came across judgmental! Thank you for sticking with me despite the offense.

Sure thing :D I just wanted to make sure you knew why I was responding the way I was...

Wait, is family members handling the body not something typically done? For LDS funerals the body is *always* at the very least dressed by family members and/or members of the congregation, unless the family specifically stipulates that they want the funeral home to take care of it. My Dad helped prepare his father's body for burial, as well as his FIL's body. Annointing, dressing, etc. I think my grandma even did my great-grandma's make-up. One of the first things discussed when family gathers after a passing is who will do the preparing and dressing of the body.

 

I didn't realize this wasn't typical.

I've never even heard of this being done in the last forty years.

The reason why the LDS church only says it is "preferable" rather then "mandatory" to bury a body rather then cremate it is because we also believe in following the laws of the land -and there are countries where it is the law or the custom to cremate bodies.

 

I know in South Korea there is just no room for burial -most people are cremated. So what would the LDS people in SK do with their dead if their religion said "you MUST be buried" but the laws of their country said " you MUST be cremated"?

 

Ultimately the LDS believe that God made our bodies and that when he comes to resurrect them he will know where all the bits are to remake it :D After all there isn't really much left after a burial either.

 

The point of preferring burial is simply that we believe our bodies are sacred - given to us by God - and that we should not desecrate or destroy them by our own hand of our own choice (in that light things such as tattoos and multiple peircings are also discouraged). People can be cremated if they choose to for whatever reason however it just isn't LDS custom.

 

Whether you are buried/cremated really has no bearing on your salvation so that is why it is only a preference and not doctrine- it's just the customary way we choose or "prefer" to deal with our dead.

It makes sense to me. I'm guessing LDS in New Orleans get put into the above ground tombs too. I assumed from the beginning that it wasn't as rigid as thought.

[Garga]

It's a morbid thing to think of so early in the a.m., but the whole idea of preparing the body for a viewing and embalming it doesn't necessarily allow for the body to be kept honored.

 

I won't go into too gruesome of details, but certain things are done to the body to make it "look right" for viewing. For example: pins will be used through the gums to keep the jaws closed and eyes may be stuffed in order to keep the eyelids looking full, rather than sinking in. Those are only a couple of examples that I remember reading about. There is a whole long list of icky sounding things that are done to the bodies. Families are NOT told when these things are done, because--who wants to know that the body has a big pin in it's gums holding it's jaw together? Ouch.

 

I'm not blaming or judging people who want to keep the body honored. I'm judging the funeral industry who does things like this without people knowing. (And then charges thousands of dollars for their "service.")

 

(I very much dislike the funeral industry.)

[lionfamily1999]

It's a morbid thing to think of so early in the a.m., but the whole idea of preparing the body for a viewing and embalming it doesn't necessarily allow for the body to be kept honored.

 

I won't go into too gruesome of details, but certain things are done to the body to make it "look right" for viewing. For example: pins will be used through the gums to keep the jaws closed and eyes may be stuffed in order to keep the eyelids looking full, rather than sinking in. Those are only a couple of examples that I remember reading about. There is a whole long list of icky sounding things that are done to the bodies. Families are NOT told when these things are done, because--who wants to know that the body has a big pin in it's gums holding it's jaw together? Ouch.

 

I'm not blaming or judging people who want to keep the body honored. I'm judging the funeral industry who does things like this without people knowing. (And then charges thousands of dollars for their "service.")

 

(I very much dislike the funeral industry.)

Do families that do this themselves do all those thing? This seems like a really stupid question (I could not imagine pinning dh's jaw), but at the same, I had no idea people were allowed to dress their loved ones. I knew you could mess with the makeup if you wanted, but I did not know that you could do the whole thing yourself.

 

Oh, and do they HAVE to be embalmed if the family is going to take care of dressing? I hate the idea of embalming. Just curious.

[Nestof3]

I'm confused why he wouldn't want you to be a donor. My husband doesn't mind, so it's hard for me to put myself there, but I guess if he were firmly against it, I'd let him decide what to do with me.

 

It really comes down me not wanting anyone to have to fuss too much over my dead body. A friend of mine had her mother die suddenly, but it was her mother's wish to be picked up by a company that immediately assumes responsibility of the body and deals with organ donation. It was very simple and cost-effective.

 

We've been discussing this and I found out that dh was completely against donating my organs or body to science. Now, his driver's license has a big old heart on it, he's an organ donor, but he doesn't want me to be one.

 

So, would you change your status if your dh didn't want you to donate? My after life plans :lol: are all pretty much whatever makes my husband happy. My thought is, if he's still around then he can do almost whatever he wants with me and it doesn't matter to me one bit, after all I'm dead.

[Nestof3]

Out of dignity and respect for the body, the ashes need to buried in consecrated ground.

 

You say "need to" -- according to whom? What happens if they aren't? Who decided this?

[Nestof3]

I have been told that Church of Christ is opposed to cremation because they feel that if the body can't be resurrected they will not go to heaven. One told me "If you are cremated, you will burn twice."

 

Is anyone here CoC that can confirm or deny this? Frankly, I don't know the reasoning behind it, or several other CoC practices.

 

Stinks for those people who died in a fire, huh? It's amazing to me that God has such limited power. It also amazes me how many of these "if, then" stories circulate. It reminds me of my MIL warning not to eat the first snow. LOL

[Nestof3]

Except if the standard is to do what Jesus did (or what was done to Jesus) according to the Christian Bible, then it would not include being "buried."

 

By that standard one would need to be entombed, no?

 

Bill

 

I think what we have very often in the Christian community is people taking their traditions (what their culture or family has typically done) and made it a Biblical standard. Often people take what they think is right and try to find scripture to back it up rather than the other way around.

 

For instance, baptism. It never occurs to many people that you can baptize your own children. So many people think it has to come from a pastor.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm confused why he wouldn't want you to be a donor. My husband doesn't mind, so it's hard for me to put myself there, but I guess if he were firmly against it, I'd let him decide what to do with me.

 

It really comes down me not wanting anyone to have to fuss too much over my dead body. A friend of mine had her mother die suddenly, but it was her mother's wish to be picked up by a company that immediately assumes responsibility of the body and deals with organ donation. It was very simple and cost-effective.

See below :)

A little of what Daisy said (fear they'd let me die) and also, he doesn't like the idea of people digging into me. Really, dh does not want anyone else touching me, I'm pretty sure if he could get away with taking care of everything he would (meaning, moving the body, cleaning it, dressing it &tc). Since that's not possible, he wants to minimize it as much as possible. He leans more towards having no embalming and a quick burial. As little of me floating around with strangers as possible.

 

 

[lionfamily1999]

Stinks for those people who died in a fire, huh? It's amazing to me that God has such limited power. It also amazes me how many of these "if, then" stories circulate. It reminds me of my MIL warning not to eat the first snow. LOL

Church of Christ is the same as LDS right?

 

They've already answered this. It's more of a preference in honor of the temple of the HS than it is a requirement. They also prefer to follow the local laws, which in some places means you must be cremated.

[Nestof3]

LOL!

 

and Spy Car, since scripture says buried, that's what we go with. Could have been an underground tomb..... ;)

 

But my ashes will be buried -- in my compost pile.

[Nestof3]

It's a morbid thing to think of so early in the a.m., but the whole idea of preparing the body for a viewing and embalming it doesn't necessarily allow for the body to be kept honored.

 

I won't go into too gruesome of details, but certain things are done to the body to make it "look right" for viewing. For example: pins will be used through the gums to keep the jaws closed and eyes may be stuffed in order to keep the eyelids looking full, rather than sinking in. Those are only a couple of examples that I remember reading about. There is a whole long list of icky sounding things that are done to the bodies. Families are NOT told when these things are done, because--who wants to know that the body has a big pin in it's gums holding it's jaw together? Ouch.

 

I'm not blaming or judging people who want to keep the body honored. I'm judging the funeral industry who does things like this without people knowing. (And then charges thousands of dollars for their "service.")

 

(I very much dislike the funeral industry.)

 

Don't forget the gobs of makeup -- I mean, you're still expected to look good even after you're dead. LOL

[Xuzi]

Church of Christ is the same as LDS right?

 

 

Nope, not the same. ;) LDS is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"

 

Church of Christ is a whole 'nother denomination.

[tntgoodwin]

Church of Christ is the same as LDS right?

 

They've already answered this. It's more of a preference in honor of the temple of the HS than it is a requirement. They also prefer to follow the local laws, which in some places means you must be cremated.

 

Not at all the same. Probably the best known distinctive of the Church of Christ denomination is that they do not allow musical instruments in their worship.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ

Edited March 9, 2011 by tntgoodwin

[littlebug42]

Quote: There are some rules about burying bodies, but I'm pretty sure that by law, it's even legal for you to bury a body on your property as long as you follow guidelines about things like depth.

 

 

There are many places where it IS illegal to bury a body on your property, regardless of depth, amount of property, etc.

 

Anne

 

Here in Ohio, my brother tried to get certified by the state to have his own family cemetery on his property. He was denied due to not have a certain amount of depth clearance or other such mumbo jumbo.

 

I will be cremated and I have made it very clear to my dh that there will be nothing open casket. I think it is a lovely custom to care for your own dead but I am glad that there are funeral homes to do this. I could not do that myself and really wouldn't want to.

[unsinkable]

You say "need to" -- according to whom?

What happens if they aren't? Who decided this?

 

 

You say "need to" -- according to whom? :

 

I thought with the back and forth nature of the Why?why?why? questions that led to this answer of mine, that it was obvious/clear that I was answering from my faith & upbringing, which is Roman Catholic. The questions that led to this post mentioned Catholic teaching so I didn't think I needed to state again in my post that I was answering from my Catholic point of view.

 

 

 

 

What happens if they aren't?

 

This was also asked and I answered in another post.

 

ETA my other answer: What happens to whom?

 

The ashes? Nothing happens to the ashes if they are not buried together.

 

What happens to the person who scatters the ashes or doesn't bury them or burys them in non-consecrated ground?

 

That's not my call. You'll have to ask the Big Guy -- God.

 

 

 

Who decided this?

 

Catholic teaching comes from Scripture and Tradition.

Edited March 9, 2011 by unsinkable

[lionfamily1999]

Nope, not the same. ;) LDS is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"

 

Church of Christ is a whole 'nother denomination.

Okay, that's why I was confused (The Church of Jesus Christ vs The Church of Christ). I thought they were just shortening the name.

Not at all the same. Probably the best known distinctive of the Church of Christ denomination is that they do not allow musical instruments in their worship.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ

:lol: I can't keep up with all the denominations. Sorry!

[Peek a Boo]

But my ashes will be buried -- in my compost pile.

 

:)

...and ashes/ dust are still *your body*-- just in another form.

 

I guess I kinda look at the state of a dead body like I look at the state of a fertilized egg: They are still a human body, just not in a commonly recognizable form. One has life, one doesn't.

[Spy Car]

:)

...and ashes/ dust are still *your body*-- just in another form.

 

I guess I kinda look at the state of a dead body like I look at the state of a fertilized egg: They are still a human body, just not in a commonly recognizable form. One has life, one doesn't.

 

We needed a poll on how long it would be before you went there ;)

 

Bill

[unsinkable]

I think what we have very often in the Christian community is people taking their traditions (what their culture or family has typically done) and made it a Biblical standard. Often people take what they think is right and try to find scripture to back it up rather than the other way around.

 

For instance, baptism. It never occurs to many people that you can baptize your own children. So many people think it has to come from a pastor.

 

Or perhaps it's the other way around.

 

In my case, what my family/culture has always done is based on our religion/faith, which in this case is Roman Catholic. And my religion is based on Scripture and Tradition (the tradition of the Early Church.)

 

(My religion teaches me that anyone can perform an emergency baptism but that the ordinary minisiter of the Sacrament is a priest or deacon.:))

[Peek a Boo]

We needed a poll on how long it would be before you went there ;)

 

Bill

 

 

went where... to examine more facts? ;)

 

eta... kinda like *I* was wondering how long it would be till you popped in and started questioning scripture, lol.....

 

There's a lot of psychology in how people look at life and death -- the beginning and the end. It's not really that big a leap. :D

Edited March 9, 2011 by Peek a Boo

[lionfamily1999]

I think what we have very often in the Christian community is people taking their traditions (what their culture or family has typically done) and made it a Biblical standard. Often people take what they think is right and try to find scripture to back it up rather than the other way around.

 

For instance, baptism. It never occurs to many people that you can baptize your own children. So many people think it has to come from a pastor.

I don't usually see that in people that study their own tradition, but I've seen it in passive people. Why do you do that? Because we've always done it that way.

 

Of course, that goes well beyond any religious things. People and decorations are a huge example. Pick a holiday (even non-religious) and you'll find that people have traditions they don't back up with more than, "It's always been done that way."

 

At church, our pastor calls this the "More Butter" syndrome.

[lmkzbcb]

I'm not blaming or judging people who want to keep the body honored. I'm judging the funeral industry who does things like this without people knowing. (And then charges thousands of dollars for their "service.")

 

(I very much dislike the funeral industry.)

 

:iagree: Kinda turns the stomach doesn't it?

[lmkzbcb]

Q:

not seeing Cor 6:19 as applying to after you are dead? appears to be discussing our actions of breaking a specific command while we are living...

 

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

 

I think you are looking at it like once the spirit leaves the body, the body is insignificant?? Correct me if I am wrong please. My POV is based on the original design as recorded in Genesis and the role of our body while living based on this scripture. Also, I cant find it right now, but I think Patty Joanna or maybe Milovany' said something about the significance of taking the Eucharist. They said it a lot better than I can. In light of all these things, the body even after death is important to me.

 

I do agree that Jesus' burial was significant -- He had quite a few prophecies to fulfill. ;) I don't think most Christians are buried as He was though....

 

I didn't mean to imply that most Christians are buried the way He was. Please excuse my miscommunication. I was using the word burried to describe any form chosen that allows the body to decompose (6 ft. under, above/underground tomb, green which isn't necessarily 6ft. under, in/under church bldgs., sepulchre, mausoleum, etc.) vs choosing to cremate. Meant to be in general terms, not specific. And certainly not in reference to those who had no choice in the matter.

 

and I guess we'll have to disagree on 'desecration' of a dead body: since a lot of it is about what is personally contemptible, a typical funeral is seen as desecrating a body by quite a few. But that starts getting into "which courtesies will trump: the dead's wishes or the living's desires?"

 

Yes, desecration was a harsh word choice on my part. Appologies. I guess what I should have said was because of my pov, (previously stated in response to your question about the scripture) I want my body to decompose organically and because I love the earth I want it to be green.

I think most agree that death should be treated with respect, whether it is to respect the deceased wishes, the remaining partner's/family's wishes, the particular church they were members of, etc.

 

Let me reiterate, I do not condemn those who choose a different way.

 

If I knew you wanted a burial, I'd make sure you got one. :)

 

wait... :001_huh: that didn't sound right...... ;)

 

Sounds like we could be best friends. ;) I would honor your wishes too (to the best of my abilities).

Edited March 9, 2011 by lmkzbcb

[Peek a Boo]

I think you are looking at it like once the spirit leaves the body, the body is insignificant?? Correct me if I am wrong please. My POV is based on the original design as recorded in Genesis and the role of our body while living based on this scripture. Also, I cant find it right now, but I think Patty Joanna or maybe Milovany' said something about the significance of taking the Eucharist.

 

 

I wouldn't say insignificant, but I can't find much in scripture that demands special treatment [burial over cremation] after death wrt consecration/eucharist.... especially considering the varying interpretations of the eucharist.

 

 

I was using the word buried to describe any form chosen that allows the body to decompose (6 ft. under, above/underground tomb, green which isn't necessarily 6ft. under, in/under church bldgs., sepulchre, mausoleum, etc.) vs choosing to cremate. Meant to be in general terms, not specific. And certainly not in reference to those who had no choice in the matter.

 

I agree 100%. no apology necessary. Not everything i was saying was directed at you. :)

 

as far as I see it, cremation is just hastening the decomposition process....

but hey, I'll be dead, so whatever the family ends up doing is ultimately fine by me. :D

[milovany]

I wouldn't say insignificant, but I can't find much in scripture that demands special treatment [burial over cremation] after death wrt consecration/eucharist.... especially considering the varying interpretations of the eucharist.

 

 

The original question was in reference to a specific Church, one in which Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture work together as the basis of the faith, so to answer the OP, we're not just looking at what is specifically spelled out in Scripture (as is being described here), but at what our Tradition also teaches. So addressing solely what Scripture says, and not how the Church in question interprets that Scripture, doesn't really answer the OP's question.

 

That's not to say there's not room for discussion or OT posts, but I just wanted to comment on that, since it seems the thread has turned from answering the OP's question to trying to defend cremation from a scripture-only standpoint.

[Peek a Boo]

The original question was in reference to a specific Church, .....

That's not to say there's not room for discussion or OT posts, but I just wanted to comment on that, since it seems the thread has turned from answering the OP's question to trying to defend cremation from a scripture-only standpoint.

 

 

yeah.. such is the nature of many threads. :-)

[unsinkable]

yeah.. such is the nature of many threads. :-)

 

yeah, it's always fun to ask the Catholics, "Sez who?" or "Where is THAT in the Bible?" ;)

[Xuzi]

yeah, it's always fun to ask the Catholics, "Sez who?" or "Where is THAT in the Bible?" ;)

LOL, I can empathize. :tongue_smilie:

[unsinkable]

LOL, I can empathize. :tongue_smilie:

 

I know, sweetie. :grouphug:

[Peek a Boo]

yeah, it's always fun to ask the Catholics, "Sez who?" or "Where is THAT in the Bible?" ;)

 

lol! where's the "life of a religious thread" flowchart? :D

[lionfamily1999]

yeah, it's always fun to ask the Catholics, "Sez who?" or "Where is THAT in the Bible?" ;)

 

LOL, I can empathize. :tongue_smilie:

If it makes you two feel any better about two years ago I had a TON of misconceptions about your denominations. I don't anymore ;) That is to say, I have a MUCH better understanding, I probably still have some misconceptions. So, all of that beating your head against a brick wall that you've done has done some good somewhere :lol: Doesn't it just make it all worth it?!? (I have Carmen and Pam to thank for clearing up some JW questions for me).

 

So, here's a party for you :w00t: :party: Thank you for your honest, repetitive answers and explanations.

[mom4him]

:lol:

May I interrupt your very serious thread to share something that made me laugh out loud during a very difficult time?

 

My mom passed away late in January. She had chosen to be cremated and made all of the arrangements long before she died.

A couple of weeks after her death my younger son, Hunter, and I were visiting my Dad.

Hunter was standing by the desk when he noticed a simple white bag that contained a tall, narrow, rectangular box that was labeled with my mom's name and some other information.

His eyes widened and he asked, "Is that...Nana?"

I told him it was.

He just started at the package for a bit before nodding his head and adding, "Well, she's thin. That would make her happy."

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[jewellsmommy]

God can put me back together if he needs to, but I'd really rather have a glorified body. :tongue_smilie: One without anything that sags.

 

 

Amen :lol:. I want my new body to be a tad taller as well, maybe a little longer in the legs. :tongue_smilie:

[Violet Crown]

I don't usually see that in people that study their own tradition, but I've seen it in passive people. Why do you do that? Because we've always done it that way.

 

Of course, that goes well beyond any religious things. People and decorations are a huge example. Pick a holiday (even non-religious) and you'll find that people have traditions they don't back up with more than, "It's always been done that way."

Not picking on you in particular (you just happened to have the most recent post on this), but I don't see what's bad about "It's always been done that way" as an argument. People bring it up as a statement self-evidently carrying no weight; but it seems to me to carry quite a bit of weight.

 

"It's always been done that way" is the way average, everyday people who don't have time, inclination, or education to delve deeply into the past manage to preserve the best of thought, culture, and civilization. It makes out a prima facie case (as the lawyers would say) for actions and beliefs, and shifts the burden of presenting convincing evidence for altering those actions and beliefs onto the person who is proposing to change them.

 

At the beginning of the 20th century, parents and teachers throughout this country, generally armed with nothing better than "It's always been done that way," resisted the often radical changes that the educational professionals urged on them. The progressive theorists of education, like progressive theorists everywhere, mocked them as ignorant and backwards, and as insufficiently educated in the latest educational ideas to have any standing in deciding how schools would teach. But every parent didn't need a degree in education to know many of these ideas were bad news.

 

Personally, I side instinctively with the people who can say no more than "But we've always done it that way." And I lay heavy odds that, whether or not they can put their inchoate objections to the latest fads in education, religion, morality, or what-have-you into a convincing argument replete with footnotes, under final examination they will turn out to have been in the right.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Sharon in Austin

[Nestof3]

Interestingly, I am the exact opposite. I'm always asking myself if I'm doing something or believing something just because that's what I was accustomed to or if it's because I truly believe it to be true or right.

 

I think so many social injustices have occurred because people just did what they were used to doing. I see people everyday who are unable to make changes because they are people who struggle to do something different than what they've always done.

 

I specifically see this with older people and with people who never wandered far from home or interacted with people of different ethnicities. These people won't try any food that hadn't always been served. They refuse to do something that's faster or more efficient because "Oh, I know, but I've always done it this way."

 

Finally, in studying history, I have learned that many things that were done for the sake of tradition were in truth done for self-gratification, power and money.

 

 

Not picking on you in particular (you just happened to have the most recent post on this), but I don't see what's bad about "It's always been done that way" as an argument. People bring it up as a statement self-evidently carrying no weight; but it seems to me to carry quite a bit of weight.

 

"It's always been done that way" is the way average, everyday people who don't have time, inclination, or education to delve deeply into the past manage to preserve the best of thought, culture, and civilization. It makes out a prima facie case (as the lawyers would say) for actions and beliefs, and shifts the burden of presenting convincing evidence for altering those actions and beliefs onto the person who is proposing to change them.

 

At the beginning of the 20th century, parents and teachers throughout this country, generally armed with nothing better than "It's always been done that way," resisted the often radical changes that the educational professionals urged on them. The progressive theorists of education, like progressive theorists everywhere, mocked them as ignorant and backwards, and as insufficiently educated in the latest educational ideas to have any standing in deciding how schools would teach. But every parent didn't need a degree in education to know many of these ideas were bad news.

 

Personally, I side instinctively with the people who can say no more than "But we've always done it that way." And I lay heavy odds that, whether or not they can put their inchoate objections to the latest fads in education, religion, morality, or what-have-you into a convincing argument replete with footnotes, under final examination they will turn out to have been in the right.

[Violet Crown]

Finally, in studying history, I have learned that many things that were done for the sake of tradition were in truth done for self-gratification, power and money.

Sometimes. Of course, sometimes they weren't done for those reasons, or at least not primarily for those reasons, and later generations justified a forced change of people's settled customs and traditions by blackening the motives for those customs and traditions.

[Peek a Boo]

...so many social injustices have occurred because people just did what they were used to doing. .......

 

 

yeah. liberty has historically been a tough thing to obtain... and keep.

[Gooblink]

I recently read that some people (a particular group of Christians) believe that a person who is cremated has given up all hope for salvation. The idea is that the body has to be basically intact in order to be raised.

 

Help me not smack my head against the wall. If God made us from dirt, what difference are ashes? And a dead guy hardly has any say over what will be done to his body, so unless it was in his will, why should the manner in which he is laid to rest be something *he* is punished for?

 

This position seems unjust in a thousand ways. What about the Greeks & their funeral pyres: if no one told them that God is unable to restore bodies from ashes, why should they be without hope? What about people who died in fires, in war, etc.?

 

Perhaps I should not even question it, but simply smile politely & back away. I'll take that answer, too. ;)

 

Why are you troubling yourself over this, dear? :) I think you'll find a group of Christians who will believe just about anything.

 

I agree, if God formed Adam from dust, he can build us up from ashes, as well.