2/3 of Wisconsin ps 8th graders can't read proficiently

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

according to this article from CNS News. Can we talk about this?

 

A major point of the article is the opinion that teachers have no business striking for anything when the children are failing to learn.

 

That's a hot topic and I'm not up for it today, but I would like to talk about the failure of public schools. How many kids have to emerge from public school as illiterates before we declare the whole system a failure? What is the magic number?

 

And what are our options for the future?

[Gooblink]

And they are still ranked in the top 3rd of the nation's ACT/SAT test scores.

 

Dismal failure, indeed.

[astrid]

according to this article from CNS News.

 

Well now, I think I'd like to see similar statistics from a variety of sources other than CNS before I start "discussing."

 

astrid

[Barry Goldwater]

according to this article from CNS News. Can we talk about this?

 

A major point of the article is the opinion that teachers have no business striking for anything when the children are failing to learn.

 

That's a hot topic and I'm not up for it today, but I would like to talk about the failure of public schools. How many kids have to emerge from public school as illiterates before we declare the whole system a failure? What is the magic number?

 

And what are our options for the future?

 

They need more money...

[AuntieM]

And they are still ranked in the top 3rd of the nation's ACT/SAT test scores.

 

Dismal failure, indeed.

 

So, does this imply that you don't have to be all that smart to score well on the ACT/SAT these days, or that Wisconsin does have some way of catching them up once they enter high school level?

 

Genuinely curious, as it seems these conditions (high test scores/poor reading skills at 8th grade) just don't fit together.

[K&Rs Mom]

That's a hot topic and I'm not up for it today, but I would like to talk about the failure of public schools. How many kids have to emerge from public school as illiterates before we declare the whole system a failure? What is the magic number?

 

I don't think it will happen, no matter how big that number gets. Why are we giving diplomas to people without basic academic skills? And why are we pushing those same people to enroll in college, where they may or may not gain those skills in exchange for thousands of dollars? I think it has to do with those dollars. A local college offers a 4 credit pre-algebra class: last I heard, that was 7th grade math, but they'll charge several hundred to teach it to adults who somehow passed it the first time.

 

I also think the definition of "read proficiently" may not be what it seems - a lot of words have a very specific definition when it comes to academic standards. Hopefully that means the news isn't as bad as it sounds....

[kokotg]

So, does this imply that you don't have to be all that smart to score well on the ACT/SAT these days, or that Wisconsin does have some way of catching them up once they enter high school level?

 

Genuinely curious, as it seems these conditions (high test scores/poor reading skills at 8th grade) just don't fit together.

 

Well, if you read through the article, the 32% "proficient" actually puts Wisconsin slightly above average for the country. As someone who lives in one of the few states where teachers don't have collective bargaining rights and also a state with one of the most poorly regarded and lowest scoring school systems in the country, I'm always a little...confused when I hear that teachers unions are destroying education in this country. You'd really expect better school systems in the states without strong teacher unions if that were the case..instead of, you know, the opposite.

[FaithManor]

Well, it's really hard to discuss these things. Many people have a different definition of literacy. So one needs to define literacy first. What is the definition of "proficient". If it means, being able to read and comprehend at a 5th grade - newspaper article - level, then 2/3 not being able to do this is frightening. But, one can't make any decision on the importance of this "news" without defining the parameters.

 

I'd also like to point out several things. Standardized tests are NOTORIOUS for picking ambiguous passages for the reading component of the test. You know why? Because, if the news is good, then schools don't have any reason to test pupils so often, or buy teacher training materials from the publisher, or pre-testing materials, etc. Good news will not generate more money for the testing service but bad news does! So, there is a vested financial interest in making sure that the news is always bad.

 

Then there is the issue that at 8th grade, kids are pretty immature and a whole bunch of them have outgrown the need to please and jump hoops just because it makes the teacher happy. So, you have a whole subset of kids who can probably read decently who will just goof off on the test and drive those averages into the ground.

 

On top of that, due to "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND", children who used to be opted out of testing are now back in...unfortunately, the subtleties of these tests require that the child be fairly intuitive. That is pretty tough for any kid on the spectrum. Yet, many, many, many children on the spectrum are being put through these tests which of course drives the average down.

 

So, I would take it for a grain of salt. The more interesting observation would be from the employers of Wisconsin grads. What are they experiencing? Graduates that can't read, understand employment forms, understand graphs, give directions, unable to exhibit reasonable reading skills in the workplace, etc. I think those opinions would be more valuable and give educators necessary feedback for improvement.

 

Faith

[DarcyB]

And they are still ranked in the top 3rd of the nation's ACT/SAT test scores.

 

Dismal failure, indeed.

 

But that would be based on who actually took the test. Kids who can't read and aren't going to college aren't going to take the ACT/SAT's, so that's not a great comparison.

[justasque]

So, does this imply that you don't have to be all that smart to score well on the ACT/SAT these days, or that Wisconsin does have some way of catching them up once they enter high school level?

 

 

Remember that the group of kids who take the ACT/SAT is a smaller and not random subset of the group of kids who go to public school for 8th grade. As a broad generalization, the kids who are not reading well in 8th grade are probably not college-bound, thus unlikely to be in the ACT/SAT subset.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Well now, I think I'd like to see similar statistics from a variety of sources other than CNS before I start "discussing."

 

astrid

 

:iagree:

[regentrude]

And they are still ranked in the top 3rd of the nation's ACT/SAT test scores.

 

Dismal failure, indeed.

 

The kids who take the SAT/ACT are a self-selected subset. I would assume these are all from the one third who DOES read proficiently ;-)

[jplain]

From the article:

In 2009, Wisconsin public school eighth graders once again scored an average of 266 out of 500 on the NAEP reading test.

Nationwide, only 30 percent of public school eighth graders earned a rating of “proficient†or better in reading, and the average reading score on the NAEP test was 262 out of 500.

So Wisconsin is average.

[Barry Goldwater]

Well now, I think I'd like to see similar statistics from a variety of sources other than CNS before I start "discussing."

 

astrid

 

The article has a link to the National Center for Educational Statistics/US Department of Education/Institute of Educational Sciences.

 

The article is accurate. 34% of eighth graders in WI in 2009 read at or above proficient achievement level.

 

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/

 

It's a credible source.

[ElizabethB]

The article has a link to the National Center for Educational Statistics/US Department of Education/Institute of Educational Sciences.

 

The article is accurate. 34% of eighth graders in WI in 2009 read at or above proficient achievement level.

 

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/

 

It's a credible source.

 

:iagree:

 

The NCES keeps moving it's stuff around, I try to link to their stats on my website and it is a pain to keep up. They used to have sample questions for the test, they were not encouraging. I have no idea where they moved them, I will look for them later.

 

My tutoring grade level tests and friends and family who teach at upper levels would agree. Balanced literacy has produced a nation with many functional illiterates.

[LostSurprise]

So what are we discussing exactly?

 

*that Wisconsin teachers unions are currently demonstrating for the ability to bargain collectively (not more money as someone stated..the union has accepted lower or current pay levels for the last 2 years and has already agreed to pay more for benefits as the governor asked)?

 

*that Wisconsin has exactly the same level of 'proficient' readers (32%) as both Illinois, Iowa, and is 2% above the National average?

 

*that Wisconsin traditionally pays more for student education then some Midwestern states?

 

 

Being from Wisconsin, I'd be more inclined to debate if:

 

1. They included definitions for 'proficient,' etc.

2. They were more upfront about money (most of the Midwest pays @ 10,000 according to the second table...I don't find that $20-300 difference between states to be relevant statistically)

3. If they were honest about money (according to the table they linked to Wisconsin pays @6500 in instruction, the TOTAL is 10,500ish...how can you even compare figures when one table is adjusted and the other isn't?)

 

Frankly, either the person who wrote that article knows very little about statistics and how to read tables or they formed their opinion and then looked for 'evidence' to fill in. I'm not impressed.

[AuntieM]

Remember that the group of kids who take the ACT/SAT is a smaller and not random subset of the group of kids who go to public school for 8th grade. As a broad generalization, the kids who are not reading well in 8th grade are probably not college-bound, thus unlikely to be in the ACT/SAT subset.

 

Makes sense - I knew there had to be a disconnect somewhere.

 

So, at 32% proficiency, that's *above* the national average? Scaaaaaaa-reeee....

[Gooblink]

So, does this imply that you don't have to be all that smart to score well on the ACT/SAT these days, or that Wisconsin does have some way of catching them up once they enter high school level?

 

Genuinely curious, as it seems these conditions (high test scores/poor reading skills at 8th grade) just don't fit together.

 

First, I'll clarify that I don't believe ability to read proficiently is a true reflection of intelligence...only education (maybe motivation). :)

 

With that, I was implying that the ACT/SAT scores may not be a great indicator of education, much less intelligence.

[ColoradoMom]

So, at 32% proficiency, that's *above* the national average? Scaaaaaaa-reeee....

 

Yeah - what the heck is going on in the public schools? Honestly - my kid is just about the laziest out there and barely does 2-3 hours a day for school and can read and speak at college level in the 8th grade (which is his grade level right now).

 

Whatever the issue is - it has nothing to do with money or hours spent in the classroom. People really need to stop with the politics and get to the bottom of this before the kids get any dumber.

[ElizabethB]

So, at 32% proficiency, that's *above* the national average? Scaaaaaaa-reeee....

 

:iagree:

 

And, if you read the questions, you will not feel better.

[FaithManor]

I still take it "with a grain of salt". When I was in the 8th grade, fully 1/2 of the people I went to school with were not serious people when it came time to do standardized tests. Though there is a huge emphasis on this now, teachers can talk until they are blue in the face about doing your best, but the bottom line is there will always be a percentage that absolutely bomb the test deliberately. Then you add to it the number of kids who are literate but completely nerve up and go brain dead from stress on these kinds of test...my dd took the ACT for practice in the 8th grade and vomitted before going into the testing room, and the number of kids on the autistic spectrum that are no longer allowed to opt out of testing due to No Child Left Behind, and well, the results are significantly skewed.

 

I'm not saying that the schools are doing a good job. I'm just saying that I wouldn't base my impression of the number of illiterate or literate students on a standardized test result and most certainly not one in 8th grade. Good grief! I've got an 8th grader and under the right circumstances at test time, though an excellent academic, he'd could come across as DUMB AS ROCKS!

 

Faith

[ElizabethB]

Here are some sample questions, they have a nice format, maybe this time there was a purpose for moving things around on their website!

 

http://nationsreportcard.gov/reading_2009/sample_quest.asp

[Barry Goldwater]

So what are we discussing exactly?

 

 

I suppose you'd have to ask the OP (where is she?)...but I think a reasonable question is, are the citizens and taxpayers getting what they are paying for? And are these performance indicators satisfactory? Home schoolers achieve much higher performance indicators (on average) while spending 1/10 the $$ (on average), and in nearly all cases, with virtually no training, licensing or certifications. I think that is interesting.

 

I can tell you for sure that in my private sector job, if I only achieved 1/3 of my goals, I'd be terminated immediately with no recourse.

[Perry]

I only have a couple of comments:

 

I read yesterday (somewhere on CNN I believe) that the states with the most aggressive teacher unions have some of the best results. The possible reason was that they do more than just fight for more money. They push for smaller class sizes, etc.

There may be a correlation. I do not believe there is causation. And while they may be using class size as an explanation, there isn't good evidence that smaller class sizes improve results. Everything I've read is that you're far better off in a large class with an excellent teacher than in a small class with a lousy teacher.

 

I'm sure small classes with an excellent teacher is ideal, but small class size isn't necessary.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I suppose you'd have to ask the OP (where is she?)...but I think a reasonable question is, are the citizens and taxpayers getting what they are paying for? And are these performance indicators satisfactory? Home schoolers achieve much higher performance indicators (on average) while spending 1/10 the $$ (on average), and in nearly all cases, with virtually no training, licensing or certifications. I think that is interesting.

 

I can tell you for sure that in my private sector job, if I only achieved 1/3 of my goals, I'd be terminated immediately with no recourse.

 

I'm here! Was busy homeschooling. LOL

 

I don't have a single question, but I am wondering about the issues you mention here.

 

I'm afraid that we'll never have answers because we can't even agree on the questions. Not just on the WTM boards, but globally...

 

What is literacy?

Are the tests a measure of literacy?

What percentage of people were literate in America's past?

 

How many literate people are required for the sustainability of a republic? If a nation is built on ideals, and 2/3 of the populace can't even read the documents outlining those beliefs or the laws based upon them, can the nation stand?

 

Why are teachers and public schools sacred cows? When does it become time to go cow-tipping and see what happens?

 

We've all rejected public schooling for our own children. When do taxpayers collectively reject paying for failure? When will ed. reform actually bring about literacy for the majority, or will it ever? Are they desiring to reform academics or are they working on social reform, and can the two goals ever meet in the middle?

 

I guess I do have some questions.

[FaithManor]

Barry, I do think you are right in that most people look at the scores as an indicator of bang for the buck. You are also right that most of us would not be employed for long if our performance on the job was this poor.

 

That said, standardized tests as an indicator of true success, failure, learning, intelligence, or cost effectiveness, is a misnomer anyway. But, because the public has been lulled into believing that they are the end all and be all assessment of education, conclusions will be drawn based on these kinds of results and that, by far, is more scary to me than the actual results themselves!

 

Faith

[ElizabethB]

I'm here! Was busy homeschooling. LOL

 

What is literacy?

Are the tests a measure of literacy?

What percentage of people were literate in America's past?

 

We've all rejected public schooling for our own children. When do taxpayers collectively reject paying for failure? When will ed. reform actually bring about literacy for the majority, or will it ever? Are they desiring to reform academics or are they working on social reform, and can the two goals ever meet in the middle?

 

I guess I do have some questions.

 

Well, I have to go do some homeschooling, but I have thoughts and sources for some of those questions!

 

Here is a start:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/historyofreading.html

[Barry Goldwater]

Barry, I do think you are right in that most people look at the scores as an indicator of bang for the buck.

Faith

 

Is there another way to do it, in the PS system we have now? I know that as HSers we can evaluate knowledge/mastery in a variety of ways, test scores being just one...but that's what PS schools use, that's what private schools use, that's what colleges use.

 

We're talking about reading, basic math...not mastery of a craft or a discipline, like spinal surgery or glass sculpting.

 

It should be a focus, but I agree, it doesn't have to be THE ONLY focus.

[HoneyFernDotOrg]

I'm sure small classes with an excellent teacher is ideal, but small class size isn't necessary.

 

Just curious, but have you ever taught in school?

[Perry]

Just curious, but have you ever taught in school?

No, but I know how to evaluate research.

[BabyBre]

They need more money...

 

:lol:

 

Well, if you read through the article, the 32% "proficient" actually puts Wisconsin slightly above average for the country. As someone who lives in one of the few states where teachers don't have collective bargaining rights and also a state with one of the most poorly regarded and lowest scoring school systems in the country, I'm always a little...confused when I hear that teachers unions are destroying education in this country. You'd really expect better school systems in the states without strong teacher unions if that were the case..instead of, you know, the opposite.

 

Teachers' unions are as any other union - they represent employees, not kids. One would hope that, as those employees are teachers of kids, they would always act in the best interest of students, but ALL the teachers I know would willingly (if their unions would allow it) put themselves into positions in which they were being taken advantage of if it was the best thing for their students. It's not the union's job to fight for students. Unions fight for employees.

 

 

Kids who can't read and aren't going to college aren't going to take the ACT/SAT's, so that's not a great comparison.

 

As a broad generalization, the kids who are not reading well in 8th grade are probably not college-bound, thus unlikely to be in the ACT/SAT subset.

 

The kids who take the SAT/ACT are a self-selected subset. I would assume these are all from the one third who DOES read proficiently ;-)

 

Not true. With the federal government's take over of college loan funding, the push to make kids college-bound has intensified immensely. In many districts, the direct pressure on kids to take these and other tests is incredible, often with fee waivers offered generously. It's not ok to just declare that you're not going to college.

 

 

One thing that's really disturbing me about the growing attention on education reform is the blame being placed on teachers. One of the ways this is happening is in the form of merit pay. Unless one is familiar with the inner workings of public school districts, it can be nearly impossible to see that the districts themselves are the ones pulling the strings inside the classrooms. Many districts mandate...

 

What teachers can teach. And the content is weak - no grammar, weak and boring (and often biased and inaccurate) history, and reform or "fuzzy" math methods (which include a lack of individual work, no practice to mastery, and drawing pictures INSTEAD of - not in addition to - learning standard algorithms).

 

When they can teach. Many districts mandate that certain unit assessments be given district-wide on specific dates. For example, if a teacher wants to put off a particular science unit until spring because he or she knows there will be additional resources available at that time, well, that's too bad because kids will be tested on that unit in December. They aren't allowed that freedom.

 

How they can teach. Teachers are often allowed very little freedom to do what they know from experience is most effective in their classrooms. A veteran teacher knows how he or she teaches most effectively, or that particular types of learners have shown to learn more effectively from a particular method of teaching; however, many districts mandate that a topic be taught one way and specifically NOT in another way. Teachers don't have the freedom to tailor their instruction as they - the teachers - see fit.

 

The bottom line is that in every demographic there will be extremes of good and bad. There are bad teachers just as there are excellent teachers. But likewise, just as in most skilled professions, most teachers are there because they want to teach and help kids be successful. They're surely not there for the money. Nor are they simply skipping out on their duties. They're being prevented from instructing to the best of their abilities by district micromanagement and weak curricula, among other things. This, of course, makes it completely unfair to blame teachers for students' poor performance. It's also why a system of merit pay is completely unfair and will likely be used as a way to remove "problem" teachers who don't quietly comply with district regulations.

 

Teachers are being used as scapegoats for the failure of government policies. We need to stand up for them and help people understand what's really going on behind the scenes. They ARE doing the best they can with what they have.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just curious, but have you ever taught in school?

 

I've taught in school, both in the US and overseas and I agree with Perry. I've taught in very large classes overseas (50 kids) where the kids really learned. But there were other factors in place - a strong education ethic that started in the home, respect for authority esp. that of a teacher, a step-by-step approach that gave a solid foundation of basics.

[Perry]

 

What teachers can teach. And the content is weak - no grammar, weak and boring (and often biased and inaccurate) history, and reform or "fuzzy" math methods (which include a lack of individual work, no practice to mastery, and drawing pictures INSTEAD of - not in addition to - learning standard algorithms).

 

I wholeheartedly agree, but why aren't we seeing a rebellion from the teachers about this? With very rare exceptions, my kids' teachers all defended and fully supported the crappy curricula.

[BabyBre]

Why are teachers and public schools sacred cows? When does it become time to go cow-tipping and see what happens?

 

 

 

 

Also keep in mind that it's the union leadership rallying the protests in Wisconsin. The great majority of teachers just want to teach and may not agree or even care about what's going on there. Many may not even care to be union members but have no choice if they value their jobs. Those who do disagree with their unions can't speak up, of course. It is a labor union, after all. Union stereotypes exist for a reason and are in effect.

[ElizabethB]

I've taught in school, both in the US and overseas and I agree with Perry. I've taught in very large classes overseas (50 kids) where the kids really learned. But there were other factors in place - a strong education ethic that started in the home, respect for authority esp. that of a teacher, a step-by-step approach that gave a solid foundation of basics.

 

:iagree:

 

But, I've taught large classes of children outside of schools, not in schools. I can teach up to 40 or 50 children used to obeying authority. In some other classes I've taught, the teacher to student ratio had to be much smaller. The same material was taught and learned regardless of the student to teacher ratio.

 

Interestingly, my group of children of previously homeless moms allowed a fairly high student to teacher ratio once they got used to me and realized they were learning! I had one girl there who kept the others in line, she wanted to learn so badly!!

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Also keep in mind that it's the union leadership rallying the protests in Wisconsin. The great majority of teachers just want to teach and may not agree or even care about what's going on there. Many may not even care to be union members but have no choice if they value their jobs. Those who do disagree with their unions can't speak up, of course. It is a labor union, after all. Union stereotypes exist for a reason and are in effect.

 

I understand the union situation. My husband is a union electrician and collective bargaining has been the only topic around here for days. (ugh)

 

When I ask why teachers/ps are sacred cows, I'm not talking about national (or local) politics. I'm more concerned with the feeling on the ground.

 

For example, on FB today I posted the link that I shared in the OP. Almost all of the comments are along the lines of "don't blame the teachers!" and no one will talk about the literacy problem.

 

Charles Sykes brought this up in his book, Dumbing Us Down. We've all seen bumper stickers that say, "If you can read this, thank a teacher." But is the inverse also true? What would happen if your bumper sported a sticker that said, "If you can't read this, blame a teacher?"

[LostSurprise]

I think part of the problem here is that we are interpreting 'Proficient' differently then the NAEP assessment is.

 

This link should help. http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/reading/achieve.asp

So should these links (although it refers to the 4th grade, not the 8th grade test). http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/itemmaps/?subj=Reading&year=2009

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/reading/whatmeasure.asp

 

From reading the site I gather Basic is considered your 'average' student learning concepts at their age group and filling in gaps in their understanding. Proficient is the top students, and Advanced are students that are beyond their grade level.

 

For instance, a Basic 4th grader could read a story, recall and answer questions, compare characters. A Proficient 4th grader should recognize main ideas not explicitly stated, recognize character traits using multiple segments across the text, and be able to support their opinions on their evaluations in writing.

 

 

Comparing figures from 1993 and 2009, there have not been great changes in scoring for the state of Wisconsin (I won't vouch for other states). Science and Math are up a few points in average score. Reading is down a few points. http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/

 

 

I think a reasonable question for this thread is...are people actually reading the base documents here or are they just finding reasons which satisfy previously held beliefs? It's nice to vent, certainly enough schools give us reason to, but if we expect education to be rigorous we need to show rigor in our own research and discussions.

 

Perhaps a definition of literacy would be helpful here, since by definition I would consider both the Basic and Proficient 4th graders literate. That would certainly help frame the debate.

[prairiebird]

I wholeheartedly agree, but why aren't we seeing a rebellion from the teachers about this? With very rare exceptions, my kids' teachers all defended and fully supported the crappy curricula.

There may not even be a way to do this. In the district my kids would be going to school in, the school board wouldn't approve continuing on with Saxon math anymore, even if the scores were improving. They deemed the curriculum too expensive and went with a cheaper one with more colors. (Really. That's what one of the people told the teachers-one of whom is my son's scout leader- that were asking to keep Saxon. Saxon wasn't colorful. )

 

 

I think the merit pay for teachers thing is bonkers. What other employment is decided by how an 11 year old does on a mainstream multiple choice test? Could you imagine what would happen if they put this into effect? I know in my area, none of the minority schools would be able to keep good teachers because they don't test well in that district for whatever reason.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I've taught in school, both in the US and overseas and I agree with Perry. I've taught in very large classes overseas (50 kids) where the kids really learned. But there were other factors in place - a strong education ethic that started in the home, respect for authority esp. that of a teacher, a step-by-step approach that gave a solid foundation of basics.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Large classes can work:)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I wholeheartedly agree, but why aren't we seeing a rebellion from the teachers about this? With very rare exceptions, my kids' teachers all defended and fully supported the crappy curricula.

 

IMHO I think the schools of education teach this baloney IMHO instead of content which is why many subscribe to these fuzzy ideas:D

 

My 2 cents:)

[HoneyFernDotOrg]

No, but I know how to evaluate research.

 

And although I respect that, it is truly not the same thing. Class size does make a difference in the depth and breadth of study as well as the ability of the teacher to engage students on multiple levels. In a class of 35 you are much less likely to build a model than to examine a worksheet of a model. The student who learns well with a worksheet does great, while the student who is a kinesthetic learner falls behind. Just an example.

 

You would be hard-pressed to find an actual educator who says class size doesn't matter, on many different levels, not just when it comes to standardized test scores (which don't measure much of anything except the ability to take a test).

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I also think students need to be held accountable as well since many subscribe to the culture that education is not important:( I also think more parents need to step up to the plate and take an interest in education.

Edited February 23, 2011 by priscilla

[HoneyFernDotOrg]

But there were other factors in place - a strong education ethic that started in the home, respect for authority esp. that of a teacher, a step-by-step approach that gave a solid foundation of basics.

 

These factors are now largely absent in the public school system.

 

I believe that ps education needs a major overhaul, so please understand that I don't believe teachers or education are "sacred cows." I do believe that most of the general public doesn't understand the amount of CRAP teachers have to put up with and do (paperwork that has nothing to do with planning for instruction, teaching or assessing students, for example). On the other hand, I also have no respect for those teachers who give up and just hand out worksheets and wait for spring break.

 

The issues in public education are so deep and involved that tweaking it by changing how teachers are evaluated, adopting yet another set of standards or even throwing money at the problem is not going to cut it. It took a whole bunch of people to get us to this (parents, teachers, politicians, students, administrators), and I hate continually hearing the lion's share of abuse heaped on teachers.

 

Signed, former ps teacher of 12+ years who quit to start a cottage school so she could focus on actually teaching and learning. In the interest of full disclosure, the final straw on my camel's back of resignation was when I was asked to make my curriculum easier for magnet school students because parents wanted their kids to have A's.

[BabyBre]

I wholeheartedly agree, but why aren't we seeing a rebellion from the teachers about this? With very rare exceptions, my kids' teachers all defended and fully supported the crappy curricula.

 

 

Put simply, intimidation and indoctrination.

 

From my own experience, teachers who do NOT agree with the curricula will still come across like they support it at the offset because it's a decision of their employer. One dissenting teacher is very easily "dealt with". It's taken me four years to gain the trust of teachers at my dc's school. Some are only now beginning to open up and share their thoughts with me when I approach them with the topic as a concerned parent. The fear is that if parents talk to the wrong person about how a teacher feels or what they're doing in their classroom, teachers can be red flagged, repremanded, or "dealt with". I've seen it.

 

Also, education programs largely instruct new teachers on how to use primarily reform methods. New teachers have been mired in reform instruction, all of it "research based" of course, and graduate with their teaching certificates thinking they're at the forefront of pedagogy. Reform is now a widely accepted norm, coast to coast. Why would the next generation of freshly molded teachers question it? By now, it's what they were brought up with, they've been told all along that they and these methods are fantastic, and if they do know other ways, those are old-fashioned, boring, and out of date. Publishers of these crappy curricula also sponsor heavy "professional development" within districts, teaching teachers how to teach the curricula (not to mention removing them from their classrooms several days out of the year), thus keeping the indoctrination ongoing. When all of our "old school" teachers finally reach retirement age, there will be far too few dissenters left to matter.

[HoneyFernDotOrg]

:iagree:

 

I can teach up to 40 or 50 children used to obeying authority.

 

No offense, but a monkey can teach 40 to 50 kids used to obeying authority. That is not what is in public school.

[BabyBre]

Signed, former ps teacher of 12+ years who quit to start a cottage school so she could focus on actually teaching and learning. In the interest of full disclosure, the final straw on my camel's back of resignation was when I was asked to make my curriculum easier for magnet school students because parents wanted their kids to have A's.

 

:hurray: Bravo!!

[astrid]

Put simply, intimidation and indoctrination.

 

From my own experience, teachers who do NOT agree with the curricula will still come across like they support it at the offset because it's a decision of their employer. One dissenting teacher is very easily "dealt with". It's taken me four years to gain the trust of teachers at my dc's school. Some are only now beginning to open up and share their thoughts with me when I approach them with the topic as a concerned parent. The fear is that if parents talk to the wrong person about how a teacher feels or what they're doing in their classroom, teachers can be red flagged, repremanded, or "dealt with". I've seen it.

 

Also, education programs largely instruct new teachers on how to use primarily reform methods. New teachers have been mired in reform instruction, all of it "research based" of course, and graduate with their teaching certificates thinking they're at the forefront of pedagogy. Reform is now a widely accepted norm, coast to coast. Why would the next generation of freshly molded teachers question it? By now, it's what they were brought up with, they've been told all along that they and these methods are fantastic, and if they do know other ways, those are old-fashioned, boring, and out of date. Publishers of these crappy curricula also sponsor heavy "professional development" within districts, teaching teachers how to teach the curricula (not to mention removing them from their classrooms several days out of the year), thus keeping the indoctrination ongoing. When all of our "old school" teachers finally reach retirement age, there will be far too few dissenters left to matter.

 

YES. THIS.

Teachers have mortgages to pay, prescriptions to fill, kids to insure. In the public school systems in which I've taught, the actually TEACHERS have very little say in what curriculum is purchased, philosophy is bought into, and materials are used. In fact, just as many doctors will prescribe medications produced by manufacturers in which they own stock, many Curriculum Coordinators have monetary incentives to use certain curricula.

 

OH. And NCLB too. :001_huh:

 

astrid

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Here's an interesting twist on the discussion: According to the Washington Times, 29.4% of Milwaukee ps teachers send their own children to private schools.

 

The link is the second page of an article from 2004, titled, "Public schools no place for teachers' kids."

 

So parents are losing confidence in the public school, but so are the teachers.

 

Many of my cousins are ps teachers. Almost all of them have decided to put their kids in alternative educational environments.

 

They intend to keep teaching because they truly care about the children trapped in poor schools and want to do what they can to help, but they want their own children to have a better education than they'll receive in Mommy's school.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

No offense, but a monkey can teach 40 to 50 kids used to obeying authority. That is not what is in public school.

 

Well, actually, that is offensive. Comparing people to animals is almost always offensive.

 

Here is something that my cousin-in-law, a ps teacher, said on FB the other day: Anyone can teach in a classroom with good parental support.

 

Not so.

 

A teacher who is uneducated in the intricacies of math and grammar cannot teach anyone math or grammar. An illiterate teacher can't teach people to read!

 

If you doubt the existence of illiterate teachers, check any teacher's forum.

 

Teachers need decent curriculum, tools for discipline, and parental support, but they can't produce literate students if they are not proficient themselves.

[vonfirmath]

We've all seen bumper stickers that say, "If you can read this, thank a teacher." But is the inverse also true? What would happen if your bumper sported a sticker that said, "If you can't read this, blame a teacher?"

 

Someone posted that on Facebook and I responded "I thank my parents every day for teaching me to read"

 

Most of the folk I know were taught to read more by their parents than someone in the school classroom. Which just goes back to the "Your first teacher IS your parent" thing.