Maybe I am just overly sensitive.....

[DawnM]

but the threads on hs boards and the discussions with RL homeschoolers often makes me feel like we are just not up to par, or "as good as..."

 

Why do parents feel the need to brag about how advanced their child is or need to respond to questions with, "Well, that may be what an AVERAGE 5th grader would do, but MY little precious is so far above that level that we just simply wouldn't even bother with such easy work." Obviously I am paraphrasing, but this is what it sounds like to me.

 

I have three very different learners....One Aspie with learning delays, one child right at grade level (and don't give me anything more please! :lol:) and one eager beaver who is 1st grade, so who knows what he will be like in 4 years.

 

We are AVERAGE performers at my house. We have things we excel in, but we also have things we are deficient in or need more work on.

 

It is just getting to me with all the "my child is better" discussions. Sometimes these parents are right, their child is excellent in a subject, but often times I feel they just need to feel superior.

 

Thanks for listening and letting me vent.

 

Dawn

[mommaduck]

I avoid many of the brag threads. Yes, I understand that mama is proud. I have one advanced student that I'm very proud of. But I also have students that are average or even struggle in certain areas. I'm very proud of them also. I'm also one that believes strongly in multiple intelligences and not just how "advanced" a student is over all. I think that gets missed a lot.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Raising gifted or advanced kids is not always easy, especially if the homeschool mom's education was less than the education she is trying to facilitate for gifted kids.

 

It can be difficult to raise accelerated male students if one lives a school district that is on academic probation and only graduates 19% of boys. My classically hs'ed boys are an anomaly in the neighborhood and you better believe they know it.

 

This board is the only place in the whole wide world where I say anything about the level at which my children work.

 

Everywhere else, both online and IRL, I do not say a peep about their education. I can't handle the backlash. Even homeschoolers in my extended family think I am a draconian slave driver and they *know* that it is useless for my son to study Logic and Latin. We do not discuss education anymore.

 

I come here because there are many other parents of children who are classically homeschooled and still advanced. I have nowhere else to have these conversations or read others' experiences. I have nowhere else to learn what I need to know to do this job that is quite challenging for me.

 

I don't need to feel superior. I do need to feel that my family is not alone.

[PeterPan]

Dawn, they had a thread about this on the high school board a while back, so if you scroll back numerous pages, you may find it. It was a whole outpouring on the idea of where the average students are, etc. The reality is by high school there CAN be a huge difference between where some kids and other kids are. It just is how it is. I don't get bragging threads, but that's because I've learned it is better to stay quiet. I even know people IRL who do this. I finally read in a book that there's sort of an unwritten code that bragging by one parent is permission for you to brag too. Who knew? LOL The book also suggested that only people with moderately gifted kids brag. Take that with a grain of salt, but I thought it was interesting. Obviously that's not quite true on the boards; as Amy said, sometimes people say and do things on the boards they wouldn't IRL. In any case, I think there's a contingent of people whose kids are progressing even MORE highly than what gets talked about, and the people are just being quiet, as well as a contingent of people whose kids are doing much less, still within the realm of perfectly fine normal, and also keeping quiet. I don't think there really was a good solution except to get along and put up with people's quirks and mess-ups.

 

I do have a good solution for you though: put people on IGNORE. If someone's way of talking about their kids or their whatever (even if it's me, anyone) disturbs your peace, put them on ignore! You go to control panel, find the person, and boom do it. When I was pregnant I had such problems with my temper, I did this a lot. It's a really snazzy feature. See if you want to read a particular post by that person, you can. It's just you're not seeing them all the time and automatically. Do it viciously and see if it helps.

[Guest]

I certainly sympathize.:grouphug:

 

Dd, 14, is an Aspie who is extremely advanced in some areas but has major deficits in others; she was officially labeled dysgraphic at age 11, has fine motor skills problems that prevent her from playing an instrument, clapping rhythms, even cutting her food sometimes. She has visual processing issues that have me really concerned over whether she will ever learn to drive, which in a major urban area, thinking of a young woman coming home from school or work after dark, is a concern. She has social issues. Much of the time, life skills and social connections are vastly more important than academics.

 

Because dd is a combination of gifted and learning disabled, and she's of high school age this year, I read and post on all three boards, but there's no single place where I feel she -- or I -- really "fit." Certain boards, certain threads, emphasize particular things and allow me to respond to one aspect of dd; sometimes, I can do more than that and represent our work as the complicated process it is, but not often. Likewise, there are certain threads that resonate with one aspect of what we do, but seldom with more than one at a time.

 

But I will say that several of the posters on this board are my personal miracle workers. They have saved me from despair more than once, given wonderful suggestions, offered glimpses of the heroism of their kids and of their own dedication to their kids. I may get "academic" knowledge from some of the other boards and a variety of long-term perspectives on academics; but it's this board that has helped me figure out just how limited that kind of knowledge is when you're dealing with a child who is different.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[siloam]

Yes I get what you are saying. I don't generally read threads that have brag in the title, unless they are on the special needs board.

 

At the same time I have always been a strange duck swimming against the current, so I don't let it stop me. I still post about issues like all my kids being behind "grade level" in math, because I know there is someone else out there in the same boat who needs to hear it.

 

There are days when I do think that maybe my point of view isn't applicable on the regular boards because I am dyslexic and my kids are dyslexic. I had quit posting on TOG threads largely because of that. We will never be able to read all they schedule in a week. It takes us all too long to absorb and process information. It isn't fair because we have the intelligence needed, just can't cram it all in our minds that quickly nor do we have the time to try to do so with the remedial programs that are needed. But someone encouraged me to keep posting, so I am again.

 

Lately I have been really discouraged by the posts about kids who are good at math, because I adore math and didn't appear to get one mathy child in the whole lot. They all are doing well, but all struggle.

 

At the same time I don't really begrudge other people posting their successes. At least philosophically I don't. :smilielol5: While I wish we were all geniuses with no LD's I realize that I really have a good life, and some of my strengths come out of the same issues. I have to keep running my race and not worry so much about everyone else (now if I repeat that 10 times do you think I will get over it today?). The hardest part is separating out how feel in the moment with reality. We should be glad for them.

 

Heather

[HeidiD]

I come here because there are many other parents of children who are classically homeschooled and still advanced. I have nowhere else to have these conversations or read others' experiences. I have nowhere else to learn what I need to know to do this job that is quite challenging for me.

 

I don't need to feel superior. I do need to feel that my family is not alone.

 

 

Well said. :)

 

No way we'd be progressing (or even have the same understanding of the particular learning issues our family is dealing with) if we were depending solely on the "real world" for help. I'm so grateful to the people who have posted about their experiences - it's been enormously helpful.

 

I think sometimes sharing details about our situations can be misinterpreted as bragging.

[Tiramisu]

The thread that made me feel especially hopeless was the recent one on PSAT scores. At the same time, I felt so happy for the parents of kids who did well, especially the ones who always share their knowledge and experience kindly and respectfully with the rest of us.

 

I lived for 10 years in a culture where it was considered completely unacceptable to praise your own dc. When I came back, I had such culture shock. I was so used to hearing, "My kid is really a fool!" Then, suddenly, it was "My daughter is excelling. She gets straight A's, and she's a soccer star." I do think, however, the Japanese way of thinking influenced me most because I still have a tendency to talk about the negatives and play down the positives in my dc.

 

IRL other homeschoolers think I'm either judging my kids too harshly or inventing things because my kids weaknesses are not problems that are visible or apparent in most casual situations. They see my dc do well with something and don't realize all the work they've put in.

[coralloyd]

My kids are very average.I don't want my dc to be any different than they are. I think it is great that people can come here and share their proud mama moment. Try rejoicing with them instead of asuming wrong motives or heart.

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

When people are over the top about it, it does get annoying.

 

On the other hand, it takes a lot of effort to homeschool and maybe people feel like this is the only place they can get a pat on the back for what they are doing and that is how they go about it.

 

I do mention how well my daughter and my students are doing with phonics and reading, but I talk about this so that I can encourage others to get their children reading well and share what has worked for me.

 

This thread is a good one to read, and very motivational, I think:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88168&highlight=passions+talents

[Guest]

My kids are very average.I don't want my dc to be any different than they are. I think it is great that people can come here and share their proud mama moment. Try rejoicing with them instead of asuming wrong motives or heart.

 

It is great that people can share their proud moments. But I also think you have arrived at a point -- "I don't want my dc to be any different than they are -- which many of us are still struggling to reach. Or I have felt I have arrived at this point before, have felt truly happy for others, only to be knocked back to depression at the same kinds of posts when dd regresses or hits a major problem.

 

So just as it is great that people can share their proud moments, it's also great that others can share those moments at which they feel inferior or somehow incapable or less than others, wish their kids were different for a moment or two, or feel sorrowful over the enormous gap between what some accomplish and the struggle their own children will always face.

 

There are always some of us at both endpoints, and all over the line in between.

[DawnM]

Thanks guys. I just really needed to vent and get it out. I know most people aren't trying to come across the way I feel they are, but often I feel it anyway.

 

My kids do have their gifts and things they are good at, but when I read several times posts that say things like, "Well, my 7th grader is reading college level textbooks......" I get discouraged. My 7th grader is reading two grade levels below his grade!

 

But I guess people can get on their high horses about just about anything can't they? Food, religion, politics, college choices, no TV families vs. those of us with *gasp* satellite, and the list goes on. I have things I am passionate about too and I am sure I have come across as bragging to some.

 

Just wasn't feeling the love this am! ;)

 

Dawn

[DawnM]

Well, we are doing Sonlight and we don't read everything. I would much rather focus on 5 good reads and have them learn it and retain it than to push 10 and have them remember nothing.

 

And as for the math kids....I wanted Literature buffs.....instead I have three boys who WHINE about reading! Sigh.

 

Dawn

 

Yes I get what you are saying. I don't generally read threads that have brag in the title, unless they are on the special needs board.

 

At the same time I have always been a strange duck swimming against the current, so I don't let it stop me. I still post about issues like all my kids being behind "grade level" in math, because I know there is someone else out there in the same boat who needs to hear it.

 

There are days when I do think that maybe my point of view isn't applicable on the regular boards because I am dyslexic and my kids are dyslexic. I had quit posting on TOG threads largely because of that. We will never be able to read all they schedule in a week. It takes us all too long to absorb and process information. It isn't fair because we have the intelligence needed, just can't cram it all in our minds that quickly nor do we have the time to try to do so with the remedial programs that are needed. But someone encouraged me to keep posting, so I am again.

 

Lately I have been really discouraged by the posts about kids who are good at math, because I adore math and didn't appear to get one mathy child in the whole lot. They all are doing well, but all struggle.

 

At the same time I don't really begrudge other people posting their successes. At least philosophically I don't. :smilielol5: While I wish we were all geniuses with no LD's I realize that I really have a good life, and some of my strengths come out of the same issues. I have to keep running my race and not worry so much about everyone else (now if I repeat that 10 times do you think I will get over it today?). The hardest part is separating out how feel in the moment with reality. We should be glad for them.

 

Heather

[mommytobees]

What she said.

 

I know it hurts when your child is "just" average; I have one of those too. He is advanced in math and is about average everywhere else.

 

BUT, where can I brag, gripe, beg help for, and understand my dd. It sure isnt with MY family (extended or inlaws). It isn't locally!!

 

Do you have any idea how nasty people get when they find out my dd9 is doing 7-8 th grade work?

 

This isn't a brag when my dd is doing math that _I_ can't do let alone teach!! It is often a desperate cry for help.

 

Kris

 

Raising gifted or advanced kids is not always easy, especially if the homeschool mom's education was less than the education she is trying to facilitate for gifted kids.

 

It can be difficult to raise accelerated male students if one lives a school district that is on academic probation and only graduates 19% of boys. My classically hs'ed boys are an anomaly in the neighborhood and you better believe they know it.

 

This board is the only place in the whole wide world where I say anything about the level at which my children work.

 

Everywhere else, both online and IRL, I do not say a peep about their education. I can't handle the backlash. Even homeschoolers in my extended family think I am a draconian slave driver and they *know* that it is useless for my son to study Logic and Latin. We do not discuss education anymore.

 

I come here because there are many other parents of children who are classically homeschooled and still advanced. I have nowhere else to have these conversations or read others' experiences. I have nowhere else to learn what I need to know to do this job that is quite challenging for me.

 

I don't need to feel superior. I do need to feel that my family is not alone.

[HeidiKC]

Raising gifted or advanced kids is not always easy, especially if the homeschool mom's education was less than the education she is trying to facilitate for gifted kids.

 

It can be difficult to raise accelerated male students if one lives a school district that is on academic probation and only graduates 19% of boys. My classically hs'ed boys are an anomaly in the neighborhood and you better believe they know it.

 

This board is the only place in the whole wide world where I say anything about the level at which my children work.

 

Everywhere else, both online and IRL, I do not say a peep about their education. I can't handle the backlash. Even homeschoolers in my extended family think I am a draconian slave driver and they *know* that it is useless for my son to study Logic and Latin. We do not discuss education anymore.

 

I come here because there are many other parents of children who are classically homeschooled and still advanced. I have nowhere else to have these conversations or read others' experiences. I have nowhere else to learn what I need to know to do this job that is quite challenging for me.

 

I don't need to feel superior. I do need to feel that my family is not alone.

 

:iagree: Exactly.

[Penny_P]

Yes! I browsed through the gifted boards recently and it really brought me down. My dh and I have really struggled to find DS9's talents. He's not athletic and is average/below average academically. He does have deep insights and can be good logically, but not consistently. DD8 is very average. My dh and I were both in gifted classes in ps and didn't have to work at school at all. It's been a shock to both of us. I try not to be disappointed, but when my bf's child is reading at 3 and solving 50 piece puzzles, it's difficult. She tries not to brag, but he really is extraordinary.

[Stacy in NJ]

work ethic rather than natural ability.

[HeidiD]

Yes! I browsed through the gifted boards recently and it really brought me down. My dh and I have really struggled to find DS9's talents. He's not athletic and is average/below average academically. He does have deep insights and can be good logically, but not consistently. DD8 is very average. My dh and I were both in gifted classes in ps and didn't have to work at school at all. It's been a shock to both of us. I try not to be disappointed, but when my bf's child is reading at 3 and solving 50 piece puzzles, it's difficult. She tries not to brag, but he really is extraordinary.

 

 

FWIW, as someone straddling both worlds (I have children with major difficulties and also children who are extremely gifted) - IF I could be in charge and wave a magic wand, I would want them all to be average. Average is good, average is normal. :)

[Mom0012]

You know, Dawn, the large percentage of very high academic achievers on this board used to get me upset too because I knew that wasn't going to happen for one of my children in particular. However, because of this particular child, I have come to realize that high academic achievement does not equal success and happiness in life. It's funny that I always thought it did, especially considering how well I did in school and now what am I? A very happy SAHM.

 

Often, the children that are gifted have their own struggles. And the people that get the top positions in this world are not necessarily the class valedictorians, but the ones who are gifted socially. My uncle had severe dyslexia and didn't graduate from college until he was almost 30 and even that was a struggle. However, he became the CEO of a large corporation and retired very comfortably 15 years later. That's because he's just one of those people that has a ton of charisma and everyone loves him.

 

I'm not saying people who do well academically won't do well or be happy. I'm just saying it's really just one part of a person's life and isn't the sole determinant of what the outcome of that life will be. Realizing this has brought me a lot of peace.

 

Lisa

[DawnM]

Thank you for your post. You are absolutely right.

 

I didn't "blossom" academically until college either! In high school I was far more concerned with my social life! Then in college I finally liked school (academic areas of school)!

 

Dawn

 

You know, Dawn, the large percentage of very high academic achievers on this board used to get me upset too because I knew that wasn't going to happen for one of my children in particular. However, because of this particular child, I have come to realize that high academic achievement does not equal success and happiness in life. It's funny that I always thought it did, especially considering how well I did in school and now what am I? A very happy SAHM.

 

Often, the children that are gifted have their own struggles. And the people that get the top positions in this world are not necessarily the class valedictorians, but the ones who are gifted socially. My uncle had severe dyslexia and didn't graduate from college until he was almost 30 and even that was a struggle. However, he became the CEO of a large corporation and retired very comfortably 15 years later. That's because he's just one of those people that has a ton of charisma and everyone loves him.

 

I'm not saying people who do well academically won't do well or be happy. I'm just saying it's really just one part of a person's life and isn't the sole determinant of what the outcome of that life will be. Realizing this has brought me a lot of peace.

 

Lisa

[Tiramisu]

work ethic rather than natural ability.

 

:iagree:Work ethic is worth much more than natural ability. Cultivation of it will benefit our dc in all areas of their lives.

[PeterPan]

Yes! I browsed through the gifted boards recently and it really brought me down. My dh and I have really struggled to find DS9's talents. He's not athletic and is average/below average academically. He does have deep insights and can be good logically, but not consistently. DD8 is very average. My dh and I were both in gifted classes in ps and didn't have to work at school at all. It's been a shock to both of us. I try not to be disappointed, but when my bf's child is reading at 3 and solving 50 piece puzzles, it's difficult. She tries not to brag, but he really is extraordinary.

 

I'm confused about something. Why would you GO to the Accelerated board and read if your dc isn't accelerated?? Isn't that kind of setting yourself up for sadness? And sort of the flipside, which I haven't figured out in this thread: Is everyone responding here dealing with a kid who has some form of LD/special need/learning difference???

 

There's such a thing as being 2E (both gifted and LD). It ends up looking different, more peculiar. I'm pretty sure my step-dad would be in the profoundly gifted category. He was a flop at school, but he's now an expert in his field and reads books galore on topics that interest him. I think he wanted to do the same in school, and no one let him. Gotta read that textbook, not a real book on egyptology. :lol: So yes, I'm looking for what my dd's quirky strength will be, not just what she isn't.

 

It's funny how much we identify our kids' successes with ourselves. Aren't parents' IQ's and children's usually pretty similar, barring organic problems? I haven't had my dd evaluated for IQ yet. If we do the neuropsych, it will get done. I've had someone suggest to me that she's actually higher than me. That would be interesting. You just never know what's inside, because we're comparing them to these artificial, outside standards. She could match colors for decorating and pick out my outfits at age 2, 3, and 4. There's just no credit for this in school, kwim? :)

 

At one point I really wanted an IQ evaluation, because I wanted to know what was wrong. I wanted to know if she was *unable* to do these things or if I was teaching incorrectly or what. That discrepancy between what I thought she *ought* to be able to do and what I was seeing was my clue of the problems. It's why I have fought so hard for her, doing these therapies and things, because I *know* she has so much inside. Interestingly, at this point in parenting I no longer care so much about IQ, because I've already done the modifications and figure the rest is just what we live with and what she makes of it. As the others said, at this point her output is limited by her character, not how much I modify or do therapy.

 

BTW, I've been reading a really interesting book "There Are no Shortcuts" by Rafe Esquith. He meets head-on this whole issue that some people DO have to work harder than others for what they want, that life ISN'T fair. I've really been challenged by this, because we have this screwy idea (or maybe I'm the only one to go this far), that if we MAKE our kids do our schoolwork, even when it takes them a long time, that we're doing them some kind of disservice. It's sort of hyper-homeschoolism I guess. Homeschooling is efficient and takes less time, so if you're taking longer you're doing it all wrong. Well hang it all it HAS to take longer for some kids. I'm not mean to her, and I count things in that school time that others might not (puzzles, wedgits, things for visual processing, etc.). No matter, I'm DONE with this whole thought that school has to be short, easy, and jumping for joy or we're doing it all wrong. Life isn't fair, and some kids have to work harder to get to the same place. Only BECAUSE I know my dd has the potential to do more have I fought so hard for her.

 

Well I guess I'm on a rant. I'll go clean or something. What that has to do with the original post, I don't know, lol.

[siloam]

Well, we are doing Sonlight and we don't read everything. I would much rather focus on 5 good reads and have them learn it and retain it than to push 10 and have them remember nothing.

 

And as for the math kids....I wanted Literature buffs.....instead I have three boys who WHINE about reading! Sigh.

 

Dawn

If it makes you feel better I only have one that loves literature. This is the same one who actually enjoys school, the rest tolerate it. I really wanted the kids to enjoy learning. It also doesn't matter how cool or fun I try to make it. They like it at the time, but when I ask them if they want to do it again, they say no. They would rather just be done with school ASAP.

 

Ugh!

 

Heather

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I'm confused about something. Why would you GO to the Accelerated board and read if your dc isn't accelerated?? Isn't that kind of setting yourself up for sadness? And sort of the flipside, which I haven't figured out in this thread: Is everyone responding here dealing with a kid who has some form of LD/special need/learning difference???

 

 

 

I had meant to mention that one of my sons does have a learning disability. We deal with both ends of the spectrum in our homeschool.

 

I think if I can (brag or share) when my 12yo son finally understands something that he should have learned several years ago, then I should also be able to (brag or share) when my 10yo son does something that is several years above grade level.

 

I see no difference. In both cases, I am proud of my child. In both cases, my child has advanced in his learning and helped his future ability to progress. Both situations have great value to me because I am the mother and teacher of both boys.

[~cindy~]

I try not to read too much into these things. My son sits up a tree all day! Lucas, Amy and Isobel are really, really good...excellent really;) at being Lucas, Amy and Isobel:001_smile:

 

On another note when Lucas does learn how to read I will jump up and down with excitement. I might just faint should he ever voluntarily do any schoolwork :lol:

[IsabelC]

I have faced this issue a lot, not only when kids are gifted, but also when kids are normal. Some of the most painful moments of my life have been times when I suddenly realized that my son was the only person in a big group of children who couldn't do x, or still did y.

 

But I honestly believe that feeling awful when I read about gifted kids is *my* problem. It's not the other parent's fault for daring to post about their child. I might *feel* like it's unnecessarily cruel for somebody to post things like "Oh, it's sooo tough trying to find enough suitable 12th grade books for my 3yo!" but usually whatever they are saying is actually a legitimate concern for them.

 

We can't all be responsible for everyone else's emotional reactions, otherwise we'd never say anything, for example, I couldn't post a picture of my child standing up in case it upsets the parents of a disabled child who can't stand up. All we can do is be reasonably thoughtful and respectful. (And avoid reading in the accelerated board if our skill at rejoicing at our own children's uniqueness instead of comparing still needs work ;) )

[EKS]

Raising gifted or advanced kids is not always easy, especially if the homeschool mom's education was less than the education she is trying to facilitate for gifted kids.

 

...

 

This board is the only place in the whole wide world where I say anything about the level at which my children work.

 

Everywhere else, both online and IRL, I do not say a peep about their education. I can't handle the backlash. Even homeschoolers in my extended family think I am a draconian slave driver and they *know* that it is useless for my son to study Logic and Latin. We do not discuss education anymore.

 

I come here because there are many other parents of children who are classically homeschooled and still advanced. I have nowhere else to have these conversations or read others' experiences. I have nowhere else to learn what I need to know to do this job that is quite challenging for me.

 

I don't need to feel superior. I do need to feel that my family is not alone.

 

This.

 

I find it sad that the only things I can say about my children's academic lives IRL are the bad things--how difficult the younger one is being during lessons or how the older one's ADD behaviors are giving me gray hairs.

 

If being honest about the levels at which my children work seems like "bragging" to others on this board, I'm sorry. It is the way it is. I *do* know what it is like to have a child who is extremely behind academically, and when I was in that place, I never felt like the people with advanced kids were bragging. Actually, I found it fascinating.

[SunshineMom]

I homeschool my daughters who are 7 and 9yrs. My dd7 is on the bright side and my dd9 has learning issues due to organic reasons. I have been visiting this board more these days to get help for my dd9. I do have to admit that I got bored with the whole "gifted" conversation on the AC board. I do go to that board for curriculum/structure/planning ideas however but don't really post anymore. I have found the real issues I am interested in is this: (with either child) how can I meet them where they are and challenge them? I've come here to receive insight, to learn some "tricks", and best practices from moms who have kids that need a little extra. I need teacher tips that will help me from learning them the long or hard way. Hearing others' stories, the struggles and victories are wonderful but only if they are about just that. Honesty of intent speaks volumes. I want to be helpful to others and will try to do so with humility.

[cindergretta]

I know it hurts when your child is "just" average;

Kris

 

Would you mind clarifying this? My children are all, for the most part, average. And it doesn't "hurt" at all. I wonder if I am misreading or misunderstanding what you mean.

[mommytobees]

Would you mind clarifying this? My children are all, for the most part, average. And it doesn't "hurt" at all. I wonder if I am misreading or misunderstanding what you mean.

 

I don't think I said that too well, I had just woken up LOL!

 

I meant when your are in a mind set of comparing Child A with Child B it can hurt when your child is "just average" compared to a different child.

 

I surely do NOT mean that you should be hurt because a child is "just average."

 

Kris

[DawnM]

I feel I need to clarify a bit. I have been reading the responses and thinking, "gosh, I don't think I said that all accelerated kids' parents are bragging," and I didn't, or at least didn't mean to. That wasn't my intent.

 

My response was mostly to the vast amounts of people who make claims about their children that aren't necessarily true. I have run into many folks IRL lately who have bragged that their child can do X three grade levels above the "norm," only to discover that the parents really are exaggerating or maybe don't have a grasp of what the norm is.

 

I am a former high school guidance counselor.....I do know that this is not only true among homeschoolers, parents I met with often thought their child was able to do X or Y better than other kids and there was simply no way that THAT many could perform above grade level, or we would have moved the "average" over long ago! :lol:

 

Are there kids who are above average? Sure there are....I don't think I have any in my house ;), although my children do have their talents and areas they do well in.

 

For the record, I do NOT visit the accelerated boards...I am talking about just regular boards and IRL folks who seem to do the "one upsmanship" all the time.

 

Anyway, I am feeling better about it all today, just a few posts and a RL situation had me frustrated when I wrote my original post. Can you tell I am more "over it" today???? I really do try not to let things make me feel bad about my own kids.....but sometimes it does bother me.

 

Dawn

Edited January 13, 2011 by DawnM

[IsabelC]

My response was mostly to the vast amounts of people who make claims about their children that aren't necessarily true. I have run into many folks IRL lately who have bragged that their child can do X three grade levels above the "norm," only to discover that the parents really are exaggerating or maybe don't have a grasp of what the norm is.

There's definitely a bit of that about. I was reading recently about a "borderline genius" child who could do this, that and the other, and a realized that my child, who is supposedly behind, could do most of those same things! But I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, because I guess it would be quite hurtful to someone experiencing challenges due to their child's giftedness if I were to imply that I think she's exaggerating/deluded about his talents.

[saja1029]

Some people just like to talk too much. My sister is like this....she talks so much smack, that she can't keep up with herself ;)

[Tiramisu]

It's funny how much we identify our kids' successes with ourselves. Aren't parents' IQ's and children's usually pretty similar, barring organic problems? I haven't had my dd evaluated for IQ yet. If we do the neuropsych, it will get done. I've had someone suggest to me that she's actually higher than me. That would be interesting. You just never know what's inside, because we're comparing them to these artificial, outside standards. She could match colors for decorating and pick out my outfits at age 2, 3, and 4. There's just no credit for this in school, kwim? :)

 

At one point I really wanted an IQ evaluation, because I wanted to know what was wrong. I wanted to know if she was *unable* to do these things or if I was teaching incorrectly or what. That discrepancy between what I thought she *ought* to be able to do and what I was seeing was my clue of the problems. It's why I have fought so hard for her, doing these therapies and things, because I *know* she has so much inside. Interestingly, at this point in parenting I no longer care so much about IQ, because I've already done the modifications and figure the rest is just what we live with and what she makes of it. As the others said, at this point her output is limited by her character, not how much I modify or do therapy.

 

 

Well, this was one reason I did the IQ testing. I wanted to make sure that my expectations weren't off in terms of them seeming reasonable for me but unreasonable for my dc. There actually was an IQ discrepancy between us, but it was still unclear how much because the very wide variations in the subtest scores rendered an accurate IQ nearly impossible. Actually, the evaluator did give us a full-scale IQ but later I learned she shouldn't have; she should have given us a GAI instead. I'd like to take it up with them since I paid so much money, but life has gotten in the way.

[cindergretta]

I don't think I said that too well, I had just woken up LOL!

 

I meant when your are in a mind set of comparing Child A with Child B it can hurt when your child is "just average" compared to a different child.

 

I surely do NOT mean that you should be hurt because a child is "just average."

 

Kris

 

Thank you! That makes perfect sense! :D

 

In terms of the bragging - I hear a lot of insecurity in parental bragging. My dh's ex, my dss's mom, drives me around the bend with it. :glare: From day one, she has compared dss and ds. The thing is, dss is freaking BRILLIANT. That kid has smarts that scare me and I "ain't no dummy!" LOL Ds is *not* an academic. He does Ok, a little advanced here, a little behind there, average on this and that, kwim? BUT - ds is a brilliant musician. He is truly talented. Dss, not so much. But ex just *has* to tell me how awesome dss is on the guitar. Uuuuh, I hear him play. He is at our house plenty. Why does she need to convince me that he is superior? I don't engage. I just don't. I know both boys' strengths and weaknesses. And it doesn't matter. They are individuals, loved by dh equally. There really is no need to compare. But *her* insecurity means she simply can't stem the word vomit about the wonder that is dss. :tongue_smilie:

 

Anyway, I see it a lot. Parents especially seem to feel like they have to exagerate their dc's accomplishments b/c we are homeschoolers and they think I am judging them. But honestly, I am not. I am not anti - public school nor am I a militant hs'er. So seriously, I wish there was a way to tell folks, "Back off. Your kid is awesome. My kid is awesome." :lol:

[PeterPan]

Well, this was one reason I did the IQ testing. I wanted to make sure that my expectations weren't off in terms of them seeming reasonable for me but unreasonable for my dc.

 

Kelli, you're so right about this. I was thinking about it some more last night after reading some posts on an old thread about math textbooks, expectations, etc., and realized I don't really KNOW what she's capable of and where I'm being unrealistic. In that sense some clear testing would actually help a lot. If I had some numbers and someone saying "You dolt, she's not ever going to fit this thought process, go give her xyz alternate program and move on!" I'd do it. Until then I don't KNOW for certain and keep plowing ahead. And I think we're about at that stage where some help like that would be, well, helpful.

 

Now here's something for you in that vein. I have a lady locally who will do the WJIII testing, which is detailed achievement, no IQ. Would that alone get me to where I need to be? Or do I need IQ to see POTENTIAL? I guess that ought to be obvious to me, but it isn't. Can they read tea leaves, just looking at the WJIII?

 

I'm with you that we're at the point, going into junior high, where we just have to get very realistic about how far therapy can get us and where we just need to change plans. VT has made a HUGE difference for her. I'm spending a lot of time going back this semester and re-doing spelling and even math stuff. It's like she's seeing it afresh with her new visual skills. It's really fascinating to watch.

[PeterPan]

DawnM--I'm glad you sorted it out and are feeling better about it! We all have those irked days where something rubs us. :)

[wapiti]

I have a lady locally who will do the WJIII testing, which is detailed achievement, no IQ. Would that alone get me to where I need to be? Or do I need IQ to see POTENTIAL? I guess that ought to be obvious to me, but it isn't. Can they read tea leaves, just looking at the WJIII?

OhElizabeth, I think you answered your own question ;). The WJIII achievement will tell just that, and not potential. It doesn't sound like achievement is what you're looking for - you probably have a good handle on what she's doing now, compared to grade level standards and the like. It's much more useful to compare ability levels with achievement levels. The other thing is that if your child is rather "complicated" (as our psych said our kids were :D), there may be a significant amount of expertise involved in analyzing the results. The good thing is that you've gotten the VT out of the way (I can't remember if you're finished?). The vision stuff can make quite a mess of test results when the problem's still there. Many LDs can (in the case of two of my kids, they had achievement scores more than two standard deviations higher than their IQ scores, which in theory ought not be possible; thank you LDs. usually it's the other way around.) By the way, in case it comes up re: your local lady, I'm not a fan of the WJ cognitive.

Edited January 14, 2011 by wapiti

[DawnM]

Why do you not like the WJ?

 

I actually prefer it, at least for students who struggle academically. I have the WJ here as I purchased a used copy last year. I am VERY HAPPY as I to test yearly here in NC, and this test counts! I am saving $150 per year using the WJ at home.

 

I gave it for years when I was a school counselor. I wasn't the primary person giving it, but when the school psych was overloaded I would give it.

 

Dawn

 

OhElizabeth, I think you answered your own question ;). The WJIII achievement will tell just that, and not potential. It doesn't sound like achievement is what you're looking for - you probably have a good handle on what she's doing now, compared to grade level standards and the like. It's much more useful to compare ability levels with achievement levels. The other thing is that if your child is rather "complicated" (as our psych said our kids were :D), there may be a significant amount of expertise involved in analyzing the results. The good thing is that you've gotten the VT out of the way (I can't remember if you're finished?). The vision stuff can make quite a mess of test results when the problem's still there. Many LDs can (in the case of two of my kids, they had achievement scores more than two standard deviations higher than their IQ scores, which in theory ought not be possible; thank you LDs. usually it's the other way around.) By the way, in case it comes up re: your local lady, I'm not a fan of the WJ cognitive.

[Tiramisu]

Kelli, you're so right about this. I was thinking about it some more last night after reading some posts on an old thread about math textbooks, expectations, etc., and realized I don't really KNOW what she's capable of and where I'm being unrealistic. In that sense some clear testing would actually help a lot. If I had some numbers and someone saying "You dolt, she's not ever going to fit this thought process, go give her xyz alternate program and move on!" I'd do it. Until then I don't KNOW for certain and keep plowing ahead. And I think we're about at that stage where some help like that would be, well, helpful.

 

Now here's something for you in that vein. I have a lady locally who will do the WJIII testing, which is detailed achievement, no IQ. Would that alone get me to where I need to be? Or do I need IQ to see POTENTIAL? I guess that ought to be obvious to me, but it isn't. Can they read tea leaves, just looking at the WJIII?

 

I'm with you that we're at the point, going into junior high, where we just have to get very realistic about how far therapy can get us and where we just need to change plans. VT has made a HUGE difference for her. I'm spending a lot of time going back this semester and re-doing spelling and even math stuff. It's like she's seeing it afresh with her new visual skills. It's really fascinating to watch.

 

Our experience with achievement testing was state through 5th grade in PS and one CAT test done since homeschooling. My oldest dd always scored very high. In math, she would even get perfect scores sometimes. In the reading comprehension sections, there would be a slight drop compared to her other LA scores; however, even the year she forgot to turn the page and finish the test, she still scored as having the highest achievement level.

 

Because dd always did so well on these kinds of tests, I had high hopes for the SAT and the possibility of college scholarships. But when she took the PSAT for practice last fall, she didn't do very well on the critical reading section. Her math score was much higher. You can imagine what a surprise that was for me, especially if you've read my posts on her math woes. And, what's strange is that this girl reads all the time, books by the stacks, no kidding. The reading she does could be a little more challenging but still...There's a disconnect somewhere.

 

Now, what the WISC-IV showed was a very low score on a subtest which measures abstract categorical reasoning. It was so very low compared to her other verbal and perceptual reasoning scores that I've often wondered if it is valid and if the that particular test was administered correcty. I still can't completely wrap my head around what abstract categorical reasoning but I think it has something to do with how information is organized.

 

I see a connection between the abstract categorical reasoning score, the relatively low score on the PSAT critical reading, and her challenges in seeing or making connections in her academic work. There's something there, and it has and will continue to have an impact on her academic life. Achievement tests never clued me in to this.

 

OhElizabeth, I think you answered your own question ;). The WJIII achievement will tell just that, and not potential. It doesn't sound like achievement is what you're looking for - you probably have a good handle on what she's doing now, compared to grade level standards and the like. It's much more useful to compare ability levels with achievement levels. The other thing is that if your child is rather "complicated" (as our psych said our kids were :D), there may be a significant amount of expertise involved in analyzing the results. The good thing is that you've gotten the VT out of the way (I can't remember if you're finished?). The vision stuff can make quite a mess of test results when the problem's still there. Many LDs can (in the case of two of my kids, they had achievement scores more than two standard deviations higher than their IQ scores, which in theory ought not be possible; thank you LDs. usually it's the other way around.) By the way, in case it comes up re: your local lady, I'm not a fan of the WJ cognitive.

 

Can you tell me more about this? I think I get what you're saying that many LDs can make a mess of test results but I think you meant more that I'm not completely grasping.

 

I've read that to get accomodations for the SAT or for college, they will want to see achievement tests in addition to the IQ testing. Achievement tests won't help us get accomodations. :confused:

 

With a *complicated* dc, you would really need to find someone who really, really knows their stuff. How can you be sure to find someone really good so you don't waste thousands of dollars?

[PeterPan]

Ok Kelli, can I say in one fell swoop you've convinced me of the IQ testing? That's exactly the kind of holes I'd expect. I didn't realize how nuanced it would be.

 

I have to do some testing (or a portfolio review) for the state, and the WJIII would be way more informative than anything else I've done. The only question is whether the results would transfer over in a helpful way to whomever would do the neuropsych eval, or whether there's value to the neuropysch doing the WJIII himself. The first psych I called doesn't do the FULL WJIII, just parts. And that wouldn't help with my homeschool reporting anyway.

[at the beach]

I have two girls I am homeschooling. One is rather ahead academically and one is rather behind. I really don't view it as ahead or behind myself. I just kind of meet them where they are. I never ever even think about their self-worth in terms of their academic prowess. I am another who is fascinated by parents who post here and share that their children are scoring top scores on the ACT or PSAT...at age 12. I mean, wow. That's amazing. And good for them. Is my 11 yo going to do that when she turns 12 this summer? She is barely reading at grade level (ETA: Well, actually, she probably even reads above grade level but she still has some tracking issues and has to use a bookmark to track) and she is not at grade level in math, so absolutely not. I actually love hearing the success stories on here, but what sometimes gets to me are comments criticizing how parents label curriculum choices on a transcript because of the perceived notion that that label isn't accurate, especially in light of the rigorous course their child has pursued. If you need to cover Algebra I and Keys to Algebra or TT is the only thing that will get the job done for your child, then so be it and that's fine, I say. Thank goodness there are materials out there for a variety of kids. A college can certainly ask to see a course description. ACT/SAT scores and college placements tests will give an indication of where the child is in those areas. MODG DYOCC actually suggests that Key to Algebra can be used a a full gentle Algebra course. Kids in school often take more "rigorous" courses and get nothing out of them. They manage to do fine but retain nothing. I don't like the idea of a transcript being a tool of comparison, but that's just me. In this era of standardization, I'm in the minority I guess.

 

In real life, I don't really tell most people what my 8th grader is doing for fear that it would seem like bragging when compared to what their kids are doing. I often have to listen to how gifted and advanced my relatives children are (when they are really not any more advanced than most other kids) and don't really feel comfortable sharing what my kids are doing. Most homeschoolers I know are unschoolers around here, so I don't get a chance to really hear about what other kids who are academically inclined are doing anyplace else. So, all in all, I do like hearing about success on this board, but I don't like when people get a judgmental attitude and insist that what others are doing is not really X, Y, or Z. Anyway, just my two cents.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Violet

[wapiti]

Why do you not like the WJ?

 

I actually prefer it, at least for students who struggle academically. I have the WJ here as I purchased a used copy last year. I am VERY HAPPY as I to test yearly here in NC, and this test counts! I am saving $150 per year using the WJ at home.

 

I gave it for years when I was a school counselor. I wasn't the primary person giving it, but when the school psych was overloaded I would give it.

 

Dawn

 

To be clear, I'm only talking about the WJ cognitive, not the achievement test (and of course this is just my personal non-expert opinion as a parent). What I don't like about it is the fact that it's more difficult to separate out certain kinds of processing skills from intellectual ability by the way the test is set up/organized. Forgive me, I can't remember which subtests, but the problem in particular that I remember is auditory processing.

 

In my experience, with a ds who has had both the WJ cognitive at school, and the WISC with a private psych, the WISC with the private psych yielded a lot of information about how he learns, thinks, etc. (he's of the complicated kinda-sorta-2E-variety), while the WJ cognitive with the school psych yielded nothing I didn't already know (he had the WJ cog first, and the WISC about 9 months later). While there was clearly a difference in expertise between the psychs that played a big role in the difference between the information coming out of both tests, the tests themselves are set up very differently. If I'm paying for it, I much prefer the WISC. As much as the private psych still had to tease out info from the differences among the subtests (oh how I wish I had recorded that conversation!), the way the sections of the WISC are organized makes a lot more sense to me personally. clear as mud? :)

[HeidiD]

Now, what the WISC-IV showed was a very low score on a subtest which measures abstract categorical reasoning. It was so very low compared to her other verbal and perceptual reasoning scores that I've often wondered if it is valid and if the that particular test was administered correcty. I still can't completely wrap my head around what abstract categorical reasoning but I think it has something to do with how information is organized.

 

I see a connection between the abstract categorical reasoning score, the relatively low score on the PSAT critical reading, and her challenges in seeing or making connections in her academic work. There's something there, and it has and will continue to have an impact on her academic life. Achievement tests never clued me in to this.

 

Can you tell me more about this? I think I get what you're saying that many LDs can make a mess of test results but I think you meant more that I'm not completely grasping.

 

The "Similarities" section, maybe? Here's a list that explains what's included in the various sections:

 

http://www.cps.nova.edu/~cpphelp/class/psy1501/wisc4tests.html

 

 

I've read that to get accomodations for the SAT or for college, they will want to see achievement tests in addition to the IQ testing. Achievement tests won't help us get accomodations. :confused:

 

Are you concerned about potential SAT scores, or does she want to pursue a degree in an area that requires strong verbal reasoning?

 

Either way, you can strengthen this type of processing with focused instruction. I've seen materials designed for this (mostly in special needs catalogues) and you can also adapt regular curriculum (Socratic method).

 

For SATs, buying a big stack of practice books and working through the verbal sections can be really helpful.

 

 

With a *complicated* dc, you would really need to find someone who really, really knows their stuff. How can you be sure to find someone really good so you don't waste thousands of dollars?

 

Word of mouth. I found someone I really liked through my homeschool group, but ultimately went with someone else who took my insurance instead (penny wise, pound foolish :tongue_smilie:).

[wapiti]

Our experience with achievement testing was state through 5th grade in PS and one CAT test done since homeschooling. My oldest dd always scored very high. In math, she would even get perfect scores sometimes. In the reading comprehension sections, there would be a slight drop compared to her other LA scores; however, even the year she forgot to turn the page and finish the test, she still scored as having the highest achievement level.

 

Because dd always did so well on these kinds of tests, I had high hopes for the SAT and the possibility of college scholarships. But when she took the PSAT for practice last fall, she didn't do very well on the critical reading section. Her math score was much higher. You can imagine what a surprise that was for me, especially if you've read my posts on her math woes. And, what's strange is that this girl reads all the time, books by the stacks, no kidding. The reading she does could be a little more challenging but still...There's a disconnect somewhere.

 

This sounds a lot like my dd9. We say there's a screw loose. My dd9 has a language processing problem. Currently, she's seeing a language therapist who is working on reading comprehension (via visualizing, making inferences, drawing conclusions, vocab; something along the lines of V/V). So we do expect some improvement, but I get the sense that this will always be with us. I don't really know. At this point, our goal is to see her performing closer to what we believe her ability to be, though that's been somewhat difficult to put our finger on.

 

Can you tell me more about this? I think I get what you're saying that many LDs can make a mess of test results but I think you meant more that I'm not completely grasping.

 

That's probably because I'm not completely grasping it myself :D. It's a little clearer to see on something like the coding subtest under the processing speed section: is the problem pure mental processing speed, or is it a vision problem (like the kind that can be remedied by VT), or is it a vision processing problem, or is it a motor issue (writing in the letters)? It's hard to know. (To OhElizabeth, that would be an example of where a psych is issue-spotting but may refer you for various other evaluations, e.g. the optometrist. That's why it's so helpful that you'll have covered that angle before doing IQ testing.)

 

In my dd9's case, her language processing issue has a significant impact on her verbal IQ score. She had the WISC at the end of K and mid-way through 3rd grade. The second time she took it, her verbal score had dropped more than a standard deviation from the first time, because the higher level of the test (since she was older) required more skill in language. I still don't fully understand it all, but it'll be interesting to see what her score is if and when we test again (possibly next winter, during 5th).

 

I've read that to get accomodations for the SAT or for college, they will want to see achievement tests in addition to the IQ testing. Achievement tests won't help us get accomodations. :confused:

 

This is good to know. I don't think my dd's issues rise to the level of getting accommodations, though I don't know what the rules are exactly (unless she were to get written up as being dyslexic perhaps).

 

With a *complicated* dc, you would really need to find someone who really, really knows their stuff. How can you be sure to find someone really good so you don't waste thousands of dollars?

 

The first time we tested, I found a place via the internet. They claimed expertise in 2E, and we were relatively pleased. The second time we tested, we found someone whom friends had used. That psych also specialized in tesing gifted, 2E and LDs. That person is on the lists for local gifted schools for admissions testing, and is on the faculty of the local university psych department that also does testing. We were also very pleased with that - it sort of took us to another level of information. If only the psych could then snap her fingers and fix it :lol:.

Edited January 14, 2011 by wapiti

[Tiramisu]

The "Similarities" section, maybe?

 

Nope, picture concepts. To really illustrate how confusing this is, dd scored relatively high in "Similarities." Can you figure that out? She did very differently in subtest that are supposed to measure similar things.:confused:

[Tiramisu]

Are you concerned about potential SAT scores, or does she want to pursue a degree in an area that requires strong verbal reasoning?

 

I guess I would like SAT scores that would help her rather than hurt her. Estimating what her SAT scores might be based on the PSAT, yes, she'll get into a decent college. She *may* get a little scholarship money at a much less competitive college. I just hoped for better.:001_smile:

 

I really don't know if the verbal reasoning issue specifically will impact her life overall. There's definitely something going on that I see on a daily basis that will, but I don't think that's related to verbal reasoning. She wants to study music and history.

[HeidiD]

I guess I would like SAT scores that would help her rather than hurt her. Estimating what her SAT scores might be based on the PSAT, yes, she'll get into a decent college. She *may* get a little scholarship money at a much less competitive college. I just hoped for better.:001_smile:

 

I really don't know if the verbal reasoning issue specifically will impact her life overall. There's definitely something going on that I see on a daily basis that will, but I don't think that's related to verbal reasoning. She wants to study music and history.

 

I think you can probably raise that score. My eldest son had a lower score than he expected on the PSAT reading section. He worked through a pile of practice books for a few months, and he and I went over the questions he missed. His score went way up, he only took the SAT once, junior year, and ended up with large scholarships. A lot of the CR questions are tricky, subtle, nuanced... The more you practice, the easier it gets to spot the correct answers. :)

[Tiramisu]

I think you can probably raise that score. My eldest son had a lower score than he expected on the PSAT reading section. He worked through a pile of practice books for a few months, and he and I went over the questions he missed. His score went way up, he only took the SAT once, junior year, and ended up with large scholarships. A lot of the CR questions are tricky, subtle, nuanced... The more you practice, the easier it gets to spot the correct answers. :)

 

:) Thank you for this. I think a big problem was the time factor since there's also a the relatively lower processing speed at work, too. I do think a lot of practice would be the best thing for her. Even if we managed to get accomodations, something like 50% additional time, I think any benefit would be offset by drains on attention and focus.

 

I don't think all moms would worry about this. Maybe I'm just cogitating too much.