Repeat third grade?

[Erica in PA]

I have an 8 year old daughter who is currently in third grade, and I'm considering whether she should repeat third grade next year. (Because of all of our various activities and our co-op, it has been necessary to put the grade labels on our kids from the very beginning, so she is very aware that she is in third grade.) She had serious trouble with reading, writing, and math in K and 1st, and though she has made great strides since then, she still is a full year behind the basic skills for her grade. She is currently doing second grade math, reading very beginning readers with some help, doing early second grade spelling, etc. I've been working hard with her on these areas, and she's really improving, but still a full year behind on most things. Her birthday is August 30th, so she just barely makes the grade cutoff for her current grade. I think with an extra year, she could get up to grade level and do very well.

 

On the other hand, she is a very bright, articulate, creative girl. People who know her well are always shocked when I mention that she has had difficulty academically. She is also extremely social, which does concern me a bit about holding her back. She definitely would view it as a failure on her part, and would be upset about not being in the same grade as her friends.

 

In this situation, where as I said, we do have grade labels for our kids, would you continue moving her up in grades and just keep on working on bringing her up to grade level over the years, or would you have her repeat third grade next year?

[Aggie]

If she is working hard and trying, I wouldn't make her repeat a grade.

 

It seems repeating a grade would crush her. Move her up. :)

[ChrisOR]

My DD is almost exactly the same age, and in 2nd grade. So when I read that your daughter is in 3rd grade, I thought she is a young third grader.

 

Here's what I would do --- call her 3rd grade this year, 4th next year, and just work at her pace. The only issue I suppose would be if you have state testing that you're trying to buy some time before taking.

[bigdogs29906]

M

 

Here's what I would do --- call her 3rd grade this year, 4th next year, and just work at her pace. The only issue I suppose would be if you have state testing that you're trying to buy some time before taking.

 

:iagree:

 

This is what I do, no matter if my kids are working "ahead" or "behind". I call them whatever grade I need to, but I work at whatever pace they need. I always figured that they didn't need to know if they were working ahead or behind....

[Samiam]

Agree with the others. As you said, it is a label for others, for those outside activities that insist on dividing by grade level.

 

I think alot of children, homeschoolers, work above and below their grade level/label. My oldest works above his grade level in math. My middlest works below his grade level in most subjects.

 

I thought it odd once when a HSing friend's son announced himself as a 9th grader, (even though he was 7th grade age), because he was doing 9th grade work and tested at 9th grade level. Apparently this was something his mother was okay with him thinking.

 

My children don't necessarily know they are working above or below grade level, since they are not sitting next to other children to compare. Nor do I necessarily feel they need to know that.

 

I would "promote

her based on the fact that she is doing the work, and progressing in the work.

 

"Holding back" is a public school concept not really applicable to HSing, IMHO.

[narrow4life]

It seems to me that "repeating" 3rd grade wouldn't really be repeating. From what I read she isn't doing "3rd grade" work and so is not really in the 3rd grade.

 

Since she is aware of being in 3rd grade, I would not move her on to 4th and then work at her level. What happens when someone (kid or adult) asks her what grade she is in and then they see that she doesn't know some things that most kids in that grade know?

 

I would have a conversation with my child and explain the situation and that there is nothing wrong with repeating a grade and that the grade is just a guide and you care more about them working hard than knowing it all and getting it all right and....

[NanceXToo]

Personally I feel that if it is best for her academically- have her repeat it. She can still see her friends. She'll be upset at first but she IS going to get over that- the feeling of being "upset" is not going to last anywhere near as long as the feelings of struggling to do work a year ahead of your ability. Better to do it now when she's this young.

[Samiam]

It seems to me that "repeating" 3rd grade wouldn't really be repeating. From what I read she isn't doing "3rd grade" work and so is not really in the 3rd grade.

 

Since she is aware of being in 3rd grade, I would not move her on to 4th and then work at her level. What happens when someone (kid or adult) asks her what grade she is in and then they see that she doesn't know some things that most kids in that grade know?

]

 

 

What do most kids in 3rd grade know???? That varies WIDELY from school district to school district, and from child to child based on their own abilities. If anyone was dumb enough to judge my child on what he knows versus what "most kids in his grade know", I could give a flip what they walked away thinking about my child.

[myfunnybunch]

I fall firmly into the camp of "grade is just a label". I would check with the co-op director to see what he or she thinks, and consider if switching grades would get in the way of taking classes with friends. Other than that I don't think it matters a whole lot which way you go. You're the best judge of which course will be better for your dd's confidence and academics in the long run. If anyone outside your immediate family is concerned about her not knowing something that she "should" know because she's in a certain grade...well, it's really none of their business anyway.

 

I really decided to post to offer some encouragement. Your daughter sounds so much like my dear friend's daughter. She struggled with reading, writing and other academic skills. And she is socially gifted, very creative, and has a strong and lovely character.

 

Her mother has kept working with her and working with her. And worrying, and deciding that she will just keep on going at her dd's level, and working patiently. As a 5th grader, this lovely young lady has blossomed academically. She is a solid student, and she brings her creativity and confidence to her schoolwork.

 

Hang in there. :)

 

Cat

[wapiti]

Bright, works hard but struggling, 3rd grade.... have you considered learning disabilities? Third grade is a common time for LDs to show up, as the workload increases/gets more demanding.

 

In any case, if she's sensitive to her grade level, I would not "hold her back" on paper. I'd try to catch her up as much as possible over the summer, to the extent necessary for whatever she's doing in co-op, etc.

[Laurie4b]

In this situation, where as I said, we do have grade labels for our kids, would you continue moving her up in grades and just keep on working on bringing her up to grade level over the years, or would you have her repeat third grade next year?

 

I choose option 1. There is extensive research on kids who were "held back" a grade and it is not good. Problems show up in the teen years that seem totally unrelated, but think drugs, pregnancy, etc. Academic gains are short-term. What is recommended instead is option 1--move the child up a grade AND change the methodology so that the child catches up. You don't want to repeat a grade, you want to close the gap.

 

I would get her tested for LD's and make sure that you're using research-based methodologies so that she is closing the gap between herself and her peers. What I mean by closing the gap: if we picture academic progress like laps around the track, a third grader might be able to "run" 15 laps and a 4th grade 25. If dd can only "run" 9 laps this year (-6 from grade level) then next year, it's not really progress if she can run 15 (-10 from grade level.) Progress would mean that next year she can run 22 (-3 from grade level.) I see many parents making what I think is a mistake and feeling like their child is progressing because they can "run more laps" this year than last, but the gap with peers has actually widened. This is where I think "they'll do it in their own time" homeschool talk is harmful.

 

Aim for a track that gets her on grade level asap. If she is bright, imo, you need to aim above grade level, or commensurate with where you think her potential is. (This is what I did with my two kids with LD's)

[mytwomonkeys]

my birthday is aug. 30 too:D my little girl has an early oct. birthday and is in grade 3, and it's been perfect for her. she missed the cut-off date by just over a month, but i'm glad it worked out that way now. i agree that you could simply call your little girl a "4th grader", but simply work at her level. even in public school, they have children all over the place with reading/writing/spelling, etc. i wouldn't worry about the fact that she's behind, as she'll catch up quickly enough. i would only consider holding her back *if* you were planning to enroll her public school next year. otherwise, no worries.

Edited January 7, 2011 by mytwomonkeys

[Melissa in Australia]

:iagree:

 

This is what I do, no matter if my kids are working "ahead" or "behind". I call them whatever grade I need to, but I work at whatever pace they need. I always figured that they didn't need to know if they were working ahead or behind....

:iagree:

[Sahamamama]

I choose option 1. There is extensive research on kids who were "held back" a grade and it is not good. Problems show up in the teen years that seem totally unrelated, but think drugs, pregnancy, etc. Academic gains are short-term. What is recommended instead is option 1--move the child up a grade AND change the methodology so that the child catches up. You don't want to repeat a grade, you want to close the gap.

 

I would get her tested for LD's and make sure that you're using research-based methodologies so that she is closing the gap between herself and her peers. What I mean by closing the gap: if we picture academic progress like laps around the track, a third grader might be able to "run" 15 laps and a 4th grade 25. If dd can only "run" 9 laps this year (-6 from grade level) then next year, it's not really progress if she can run 15 (-10 from grade level.) Progress would mean that next year she can run 22 (-3 from grade level.) I see many parents making what I think is a mistake and feeling like their child is progressing because they can "run more laps" this year than last, but the gap with peers has actually widened. This is where I think "they'll do it in their own time" homeschool talk is harmful.

 

Aim for a track that gets her on grade level asap. If she is bright, imo, you need to aim above grade level, or commensurate with where you think her potential is. (This is what I did with my two kids with LD's)

 

:iagree:Excellent post! I especially agree with the explanation of how the gap actually widens, if it is not directly addressed. Good point.

[gardening momma]

I would keep her in the grade that matches her age (this year 3rd grade, next 4th grade, etc) and have her work on whatever grade level material she needs at the time. I would do this all the way until the end of high school. She may be behind in some areas, on grade level in other areas, and ahead of grade level in others. And it can all change from year to year. There's no need to adjust what grade you call her from year to year based on her academic levels. It's necessary to do it in school so that students can take the classes that they need and don't get swept along with other students who are ahead of them academically. You don't need to put her in a different class in homeschool.

[gardening momma]

What do most kids in 3rd grade know???? That varies WIDELY from school district to school district, and from child to child based on their own abilities.

I agree. I don't go by the state's content standards. Many homeschooled kids learn things in a different order than schooled kids (science & history for example). For instance, I do not put a big emphasis on American history/culture/patriotism/etc. at this time. Dd7 does have a smattering of knowledge in this area, just as part of learning about the world around her, but she's mostly learning about ancient history this year.

[justasque]

My children don't necessarily know they are working above or below grade level, since they are not sitting next to other children to compare. Nor do I necessarily feel they need to know that.

 

:iagree:

 

You mentioned needing a grade level for activities and co-op. In all of the homeschooling situations we have participated in over the years, there has been some leeway as to how kids are placed, based on their skills, interest level, learning ability/disability, and so on. In our co-op, classes are called things like Science 6/7 instead of one grade level, often with overlap with another class (e.g. science 7/8), and even then there can be a wide variation in age and no one thinks twice about it. In less formal situations, there is even more variation. In some cases children have appropriate modifications or adaptations - slightly less work, more tailored work, harder work, etc., or perhaps a parent in class with them to help the child more fully participate.

 

If there are particular activities you are concerned about, I'd discuss with the teacher/leader/organizer which level is the best fit for your child. If it's something where academic skill level isn't critical, like a gym class, I'd stick with 3rd grade. If it's something where her skills aren't up to speed for the class, you could either go a year lower or see if the class can be adapted to fit her needs or perhaps you can attend with her to facilitate when needed (e.g. read things to her in science class, where it's not really about the reading, if you see what I mean). My point here is that in homeschooling, it doesn't need to be "all third grade, all the time"; you can do third grade for some things, fourth for others, and fourth-with-adaptations for others.

 

Do not worry about testing. I know PA requires testing in 3rd grade, but your child does not have to score at a particular level. I believe the test can be normed appropriately, and/or the child can do out-of-level testing, or one of the individual tests designed for kids who may be scoring out of range for their age. If your portfolio reflects ongoing work, as it is likely to do for someone who hangs out on this board, then you should not run into any serious trouble. School districts serve many kids - not everyone is "above average"!

 

You can re-assess at the end of next year; the real decision comes in deciding when 9th grade begins, assuming she is college-bound, because some things can get tricky at that point. You can always do a "grade 13" year at the end if you feel it's appropriate.

[Ellie]

I wouldn't do it. Nope.

 

You say she's bright and all, in which case she will most likely catch up to, and maybe surpass, her age peers, and then we'll be having a conversation about how you could skip her a grade so she'd be where she "should" be.

 

Just leave it alone. It will be fine.

[Erica in PA]

Thank you everyone! I appreciate all of your input. I'm leaning toward continuing to move her on, and just keep working hard with her. The explanation of catching up (from Laurieb) was really helpful. After thinking about it that way, I do see that she is catching up. She's not as far behind as a third grader as she was as a second grader. Some of you mentioned possible learning disabilities... I am pretty sure that the problems dd had were temporary, and are improving now rather than staying constant or getting worse. She used to really reverse letters and numbers very badly when she was 5 and 6, which really held up all of her schoolwork for two years. She doesn't do that anymore at all. The only thing I've noticed as a possible problem within the past few months is that she has a really hard time memorizing things.. like verses for AWANA, etc. We can go over a verse 20 or 30 times together, and still a few minutes later she will completely forget it. I might still have her tested for learning disabilities, just to be sure...where would I go about having that done?

 

Also, when people talk about helping a child catch up to grade level, what do you envision doing to make that happen? How does one do that?

[gardening momma]

The only thing I've noticed as a possible problem within the past few months is that she has a really hard time memorizing things.. like verses for AWANA, etc. We can go over a verse 20 or 30 times together, and still a few minutes later she will completely forget it.

I wouldn't worry about her forgetting the verse after one day of practice, even after 20-30 repetitions. This is what I do with dd7, who is also in Awana: twice a day we go over her verses, with 5 repetitions for each verse. I usually break up the verse into segments and have her repeat after me until we have gone through the verse 5 times. Then we move on to the next verse and repeat that verse 5 times, and so on. I usually count with my fingers or make tally marks on paper to keep track of our progress, so she can see how close she is to being done. I also do this in Sparks club, where I'm a leader, with the kids I work with.

 

We often work on verses for the following week as well, so by the time she recites to a leader, she has worked on her verses for 2 weeks. We're not always successful at doing this twice a day, every day, but if we are, then she'll practice each verse 70 times over the course of a week.

[ChandlerMom]

Thank you everyone! I appreciate all of your input. I'm leaning toward continuing to move her on, and just keep working hard with her. The explanation of catching up (from Laurieb) was really helpful. After thinking about it that way, I do see that she is catching up. She's not as far behind as a third grader as she was as a second grader. Some of you mentioned possible learning disabilities... I am pretty sure that the problems dd had were temporary, and are improving now rather than staying constant or getting worse. She used to really reverse letters and numbers very badly when she was 5 and 6, which really held up all of her schoolwork for two years. She doesn't do that anymore at all. The only thing I've noticed as a possible problem within the past few months is that she has a really hard time memorizing things.. like verses for AWANA, etc. We can go over a verse 20 or 30 times together, and still a few minutes later she will completely forget it. I might still have her tested for learning disabilities, just to be sure...where would I go about having that done?

 

Also, when people talk about helping a child catch up to grade level, what do you envision doing to make that happen? How does one do that?

 

First things I'd do is add days. A half-day of a couple core subjects on Saturdays, do some work on key areas over breaks and plan on a "fifth quarter" (summer school, which would give 3mo of catch-up). I'd focus on reading and math, getting them up to level. Fun activities (mad libs for grammar, for example) and interactives. 1-2hrs per day could do wonders on closing up the gap.

[parias1126]

My DD8 is repeating 2nd this year. She is doing very well and has come a long way with her reading skills. I feel like if she isn't doing work on her grade level or not capable of it, then why push her ahead? It wouldn't make sense.

[Laurie4b]

Thank you everyone! I appreciate all of your input. I'm leaning toward continuing to move her on, and just keep working hard with her. The explanation of catching up (from Laurieb) was really helpful. After thinking about it that way, I do see that she is catching up. She's not as far behind as a third grader as she was as a second grader. Some of you mentioned possible learning disabilities... I am pretty sure that the problems dd had were temporary, and are improving now rather than staying constant or getting worse. She used to really reverse letters and numbers very badly when she was 5 and 6, which really held up all of her schoolwork for two years. She doesn't do that anymore at all. The only thing I've noticed as a possible problem within the past few months is that she has a really hard time memorizing things.. like verses for AWANA, etc. We can go over a verse 20 or 30 times together, and still a few minutes later she will completely forget it. I might still have her tested for learning disabilities, just to be sure...where would I go about having that done?

 

Also, when people talk about helping a child catch up to grade level, what do you envision doing to make that happen? How does one do that?

 

In many areas, you can have it done for free from the school system--or at least you can get a WISC-IV (an IQ test--but the subtests are what is helpful in determining an LD) and an achievement test. Then that will be part of your testing you don't have to pay for. I like a neuropsychologist for testing.

 

How you get them caught up depends strongly on what the problem is. For instance, if the problem is reading, then you'd want to use something that was designed specifically for kids who need remediation, not just a garden-variety reading program. Barton, Wilson, Phonographix are all good for that. You might even want to hire a tutor to get things jump-started. For writing, IEW can be very helpful for kids who struggle. If handwriting is holding up writing in any way, you teach keyboarding, and may have to jettison the handwriting, etc. You can get a lot of help with individual subjects on the special needs board.

 

Knowing what the standards are for the next two years helps you figure out a trajectory so that your dd's line of achievement eventually intersects the grade level line. (I wouldn't be very precise, but knowing what you're shooting for in your mind helps!)

 

One thing that is helpful in math is that material is repeated year after year, so if she can really *get* something this year, it will pay off. If you do a search for "overteaching" on the special needs board, I've described the method a few times--mostly for spelling, but it works well with math or reading too. It is helpful for kids with memory issues. The elite $$$$$ private school around here for kids with LD's does. People pay $$$$$ for a half day because it works.

 

With a foster dd who was 12-14, I started out with a 6th grade book, similar to Rod and Staff. We learned new material 2 or 3 days per week. We reviewed at least one problem of old material either 2 or 3 days per week. If she ever got anything wrong, I retaught it at that point. At the end of two years in a 6th grade book, she tested at or above grade level in math, simply because she really, really knew the basics.