Graphing calculators in pre-calc and beyond to engineering school...

[Nan in Mass]

How important are they under these circumstances? How disadvantaged will my son be if he is not super familiar and fast with one? So far, he has only occasionally used a scientific calculator. I understand that he needs to be able to do the problems without one. Everyone in real life that I ask complains about how students use it as a crutch without answering my question, so I thought I would try here. So how much emphasis do I have to put on practising with one now, in pre-calc, if my son is going to do (hopefully) calc at the CC next year and then go on to engineering school?

-Nan

[flyingiguana]

It's an absolute must for the calculus AP tests. He would need to be fast and proficient with it. Some of the integrals they ask on the AP test are impossible without the graphing calculator. (Or, at least they were a few years ago when my daughter took it.) And the graphing needs to be done on a calculator or the student will never finish the test.

 

However, even if he isn't doing the AP test, you might want to consider using a graphing calculator for pre-calc. For my kids it turned out to be pretty useful. It is helpful to be able to quickly graph a lot of functions so as to see what they look like. Once a student has done a number of these, they're more likely to be able to say what an equation will look like. That's pretty helpful. Graphing by hand is a pain. It is probably useful to teach kids how to graph by hand, but I've found that letting them do a lot of it on the calculator means they actually look at the function that comes out, rather than just moving on obliviously once they've got the points down on the paper. (I have wondered if a program like excel would also do these graphs for you, so you might not have to actually buy the calculator just now, if money is a problem. If you have excel.)

 

Otherwise, whether he needs to be proficient at the graphing calculator at the cc is really going to depend on the professor he's taking calculus from. Some professors think they are a great pedagogical tool and use it a lot. Others think they are a crutch.

 

There is a steep learning curve on those calculators --much more so than regular scientific calculators, but most of the hard to figure out bits are the calculus parts, not the graphing parts. If you think there's a chance your son will need to be able to use one next year, you might want to start him now, but it might not be super critical to learn until he's in the class. You could wait until next year and see if the professor wants them to use them.

 

I would make sure that your son is very fast with a scientific calculator. It would probably be a good idea to at least have him use that a lot this year. I've known people who were nearly failing classes because they didn't have any skill with a simple scientific calculator.

 

I was in one class where I didn't even have a graphing calculator. I wasn't at any disadvantage until the professor gave a test where we weren't allowed to use graphing calculators. Everyone used them anyway. I didn't have one, so I couldn't cheat like everyone else. I lost a lot of points because I just couldn't get the problems done fast enough. I'm not sure you'd want your son to be able to cheat like this, but it is worth considering. (The professor, for what it's worth, is no longer in teaching. He was pretty awful -- had no clue how to teach, what the material was, or what the students were doing.)

[Jann in TX]

The majority of students entering college are from the PS system--and the PS system teaches the graphing calculator (too much if you ask me)--but still those students will be familiar with it when reaching college level maths.

 

I still like to work Pre-Calc problems manually--and I make my dd do this too--BUT I am also teaching her the graphing calculator... our text is set up to teach both and has different problems labeled specifically for the graphing calculator (Lial's Pre-Calc 3rd edition).

 

Since graphing calculators were not 'really' around in the early 80s when I was in college, I'm not as familiar with them as I should be... especially since I teach Algebra 1, Algebra 2 and Geometry--and I do not use a graphing calculator with these classes.

 

I need VISUAL and AUDITORY instruction... I just cannot make myself read through a manual... so I spent about $30 on a set of DVDs from this site. My dd has also used the set to help her navigate the beast.. This site has a monthly subscription OR a DVD option... since I wanted it for reference purposes I chose the DVD.

[In The Great White North]

It's an absolute must for the calculus AP tests. He would need to be fast and proficient with it. Some of the integrals they ask on the AP test are impossible without the graphing calculator. (Or, at least they were a few years ago when my daughter took it.) And the graphing needs to be done on a calculator or the student will never finish the test.

 

:iagree:

[Moira in MA]

I need VISUAL and AUDITORY instruction... I just cannot make myself read through a manual... so I spent about $30 on a set of DVDs from this site. My dd has also used the set to help her navigate the beast.. This site has a monthly subscription OR a DVD option... since I wanted it for reference purposes I chose the DVD.

 

Thanks for the link (corrected here: mathtutordvd)

 

I need to learn to use the TI-89. I watched the sample video and already feel much more confident about its use.

 

~Moira

[vonfirmath]

Interesting, I took the AP Calculus BC test and got a 5 on it back in 1990 without a graphing calculator. I then went on to take engineering math and science classes for three years from 1991 through 1994. I think a few people had graphing calculators but they were never required.

 

I find it very surprising they are now considered necessary. (Maybe a bit crotchety too)

[LinRTX]

Well, my son graduated with a degree in electrical engineering two years ago. He never used a graphing calculator until his 4th semester at college (after 3 semesters of calculus). Some familiarity with it is probably good, but not necessary.

 

He had no problems learning how to use it with hours after buying it. He needed to use it on homework due that week. He made an A in the class.

 

Hope that helps

Linda

Edited September 16, 2010 by Linda in TX
added info

[Jane in NC]

 

I find it very surprising they are now considered necessary. (Maybe a bit crotchety too)

 

Frankly I was stunned to find the calculator a necessity on the AP exam which led to this Luddite growl.

 

Back to the OP: Just to throw a monkey wrench in your plans, Nan, you might want to ask your engineer friends about their HP calculators. While many schools recommend TIs in math classes, there is a subset of techno-geeks who adore their HPs with Reverse Polish Notation.

[Nan in Mass]

Like my husband? GRIN

That is a good point.

I hate the keystroke order on my children's calculators. Sigh. It is inconvenient. I don't remember now how mine worked, but it was a good bit better than theirs, in my opinion.

I'll have to investigate.

[coffeegal]

Interesting, I took the AP Calculus BC test and got a 5 on it back in 1990 without a graphing calculator. I then went on to take engineering math and science classes for three years from 1991 through 1994. I think a few people had graphing calculators but they were never required.

 

I find it very surprising they are now considered necessary. (Maybe a bit crotchety too)

 

:iagree: Took an AP Calculus test, don't remember which one, and got a 5 on it. Graphing Calculators were just starting to be used while I was taking math classes. Only 1 prof ever spoke to me about needing a graphing calculator because I wouldn't finish the test in time. Being too lazy to head out and buy one, I took the test anyway. I wasn't the first finished, but I was in the top 5. :D My plan, when we get there, is to continue to teach math without graphing calculators, but to have the children work through the calculator's manual so they learn how to use it.

[Kareni]

Glad to see you back, Nan!

 

My daughter's first experience with graphing calculators was in College Algebra and Trigonometry at the local community college. The calculator was a requirement for the class. I'd suggest your son work to become familiar with a graphing calculator.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Joan in GE]

My ds2 is going into his third year of engineering school here and still has not used one (and never learned in high school here either). But ds3 is learning with Precalc at home. I think it is useful to know just in case. But if I remember correctly from previous threads about this, there are engineering schools even in the US that aren't using them. So if you know which schools he might attend (and even the CC for Calculus), you could inquire if they use them or not (just to know how much pressure he would be facing).

 

For ds3, the biggy was making sure he wasn't in the wrong mode by mistake! (where someone fooled around with the buttons without his knowledge).

 

Joan

[laundrycrisis]

I don't know what is required now.

 

When I earned my engineering degree, graphing calcs were brand new. We were not ever assumed to have one. We were assumed to have a good scientific calculator. Back then (90s) pretty much every engineering student at my university had an HP scientific calculator that worked in Reverse Polish Notation.

 

I used the scientific constants and higher math functions all the time.

 

I don't think I ever graphed anything on my calculator except for fun. It was never something I needed to do. Never.

 

We did have to draw pictures of graphs of what a function would look like on exams...however...we were expected to know that based on the form/type of the function. We didn't need a calculator to show us the picture. If you have memorized the shapes of various types of functions, to graph it, you only need to find the values of the peaks and valleys, plot those points, and you fill in the rest of the curve by hand. We were expected to have completed homework that required us to practice these skills, and on an exam we could draw these graphs quickly. Someone who hadn't learned the shapes and how to calculate the key values who didn't have a graphing calculator probably would have been in trouble on an exam.

 

While many schools recommend TIs in math classes, there is a subset of techno-geeks who adore their HPs with Reverse Polish Notation.

:party: (techno-geek party ! I'm the purple one.)

 

What is RPN?

 

http://h20331.www2.hp.com/hpsub/us/en/rpn-calculator.html

 

If I needed to replace my HP 48g, I would buy this:

 

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/215348-215348-64232-30821-215351-3235173.html

Edited September 16, 2010 by laundrycrisis

[Susan C.]

Calculator instruction is the main reason I use BJU dvds for math from Algebra 1 on. Calculator instruction is integrated into the math instruction. I did upper level math when in high school, but never used the calculator, so I was useless in teaching my dc how to use it.

[Jane in NC]

 

We did have to draw pictures of graphs of what a function would look like on exams...however...we were expected to know that based on the form/type of the function. We didn't need a calculator to show us the picture. If you have memorized the shapes of various types of functions, to graph it, you only need to find the values of the peaks and valleys, plot those points, and you fill in the rest of the curve by hand. We were expected to have completed homework that required us to practice these skills, and on an exam we could draw these graphs quickly. Someone who hadn't learned the shapes and how to calculate the key values who didn't have a graphing calculator probably would have been in trouble on an exam.

 

 

 

You could have been one of my students. This is how I have taught Precalculus and Calculus.

 

 

:party: (techno-geek party ! I'm the purple one.)

 

 

At least one HPer in every crowd!

 

Jane

[Janice H]

I love the fact that the calculator I got in the late 80's is still "current" and approved for those taking the CFA (Chartered Financial Analyst) exams.

Guess it's still a classic for discounting cash flows, finding the internal rate of return, etc.

 

I still love the keyboard feel and the slanted fronts of the keys.

[distancia]

Why is the graphing calculator deemed "necessary" now on AP exams, but it wasn't before? What about the exams has changed?

 

If the exams have been shortened, then I would say the issue is the speed a graphing calculator offers.

 

But if the exams have not been shortened, then why are the graphing calculators needed? What did people use 20 years ago and why change the exams?

[Jane in NC]

Why is the graphing calculator deemed "necessary" now on AP exams, but it wasn't before? What about the exams has changed?

 

If the exams have been shortened, then I would say the issue is the speed a graphing calculator offers.

 

But if the exams have not been shortened, then why are the graphing calculators needed? What did people use 20 years ago and why change the exams?

 

There are problems on the AP which can only be "solved" (i.e. approximated) numerically. If you look at the thread I mentioned earlier, you will see some examples. (Look at Kathy in Richmond's post.) What happens is that students are required to use the solver function or a numerical integration program on the calculator.

[swimmermom3]

It's not just Calculus classes that require graphing calculators in the ps system. My ds is taking geometry and the calculator is mandatory. This irks me, to say the least. Fortunately, the boy will still be doing math at home as well and will continue to not be allowed to use one. I have not yet tackled the manual and I resent the expense for an ordinary math class for an ordinary math student.

 

That's my vent, Nan. So glad to see you back.:party:

[Julie of KY]

I think graphing calculators are a good skill to know how to use, but I haven't figured out why they are considered "mandatory" rather than just a tool. The calculator should be a tool to help you do it faster, but you should still be able to understand and do the math without one.

 

... maybe I'm off my rocker, but I'm speaking as a person who graduated with an engineering degree and could do all the math by hand even though most others did have graphing calculators. Too often, I observed students spending all their time learning how to use the calculator without knowing what the calculator was actually doing for them.

So far I've never owned a graphing calculator, but I'm sure my kids will someday.

[laundrycrisis]

... maybe I'm off my rocker, but I'm speaking as a person who graduated with an engineering degree and could do all the math by hand even though most others did have graphing calculators.

 

Exactly !

 

I had a calculator with graphing capabilities, but I didn't need it to make graphs for me and it would have taken more time than it was worth. I did it by hand.

 

We did have some homework situations with problems that could only be solved numerically - and used the integral solver for that. But we still had to draw a plot of what we were integrating (by hand, on green engineering paper.) I never actually needed the calculator to make the graph for me, although there were times that I needed the answer from the integral solver. We were not given problems on exams that could only be solved numerically.

[Janice in NJ]

I'm looking at the DVD's for the TI-83 and the TI-89. Does anyone have a set they would like to sell? My kids have picked things up as they move along, but I keep forgetting which button does what! :glare: So *I* could use a reference DVD.

 

THANKS!

Janice

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you, everyone, for the information, and also for the welcome backs. : )

 

Adding a few more bits of information that I've collected (so it will all be in one thread):

 

My nephew, highest math track in our top rated public school, says that his class has had graphing calculators since 9th and the teachers give them a handout whenever they have learned something new that they can do with them. Occasionally there will be a quiz that is labelled "no calculator", or an excersize, but most of the time, they are left to use it however and whenever they please.

 

My older children, in college now, have both been praised for having scientific calculators rather than graphing calculators by their calculus professors. The profs said they didn't need them for the class and they would understand the material better if they didn't use them.

 

An inlaw, who taught math in a private high school for years, is suspicious that they are imparing students' ability to understand the point of the math.

 

You can use HP calculators in testing situations, not just TI's. The calculator just has to meet the specifications (no paper printout, no qwerty keyboard, etc.).

 

I've sent my nephew off to try to find all his old handouts, and my son off to get his cousin to show him how to do a few things with the calculator so when we go look at them in the store, he can (hopefully) figure out whether he wants reverse Polish or not. I think he is the sort of person who might. When my oldest was doing math at the public school, he was told by the 9th grade teacher that he could buy any sort of calculator he wanted, but if he didn't buy a TI one, the teacher wouldn't be able to help him figure out how to do things, so we got him a TI. Which he promptly had stolen from him. After that, we bought him a cheap scientific one for 1/10th of the price which he used for the rest of high school (geometry, precalc, and statistics). That was awhile ago, though.

 

Nan

Edited September 17, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[flyingiguana]

My older children, in college now, have both been praised for having scientific calculators rather than graphing calculators by their calculus professors. The profs said they didn't need them for the class and they would understand the material better if they didn't use them.

 

An inlaw, who taught math in a private high school for years, is suspicious that they are imparing students' ability to understand the point of the math.

Nan

 

It really depends on how you use them. They can be a great teaching tool, as long as the student still understands how to do certain things by hand. In other words, the graphing calculator can be very enlightening and can be used as a quick check on work (particularly intermediate steps in a complex problem). I'm all for them, but that may be because my kids are really good at math, and know how to use these sorts of tools without just letting the tool do all the work.

 

Also, there are a lot of functions on the graphing calculator that can be useful -- solving higher order equations, for example -- things that one just doesn't want to waste time doing by hand (and the calculator is more likely to get an accurate answer). And there are complex integrals that can only be solved numerically. It's nice to have a hand held device that will do them so you don't have to go finding a computer.

 

The calc professors may see less need for graphing calculators because a lot of calc problems (the good ones, anyway) aren't so much computational as conceptual. By Calc 3, it seems the graphing calculator isn't quite as useful.

[swimmermom3]

Thank you, everyone, for the information, and also for the welcome backs. : )

 

Adding a few more bits of information that I've collected (so it will all be in one thread):

 

My nephew, highest math track in our top rated public school, says that his class has had graphing calculators since 9th and the teachers give them a handout whenever they have learned something new that they can do with them. Occasionally there will be a quiz that is labelled "no calculator", or an excersize, but most of the time, they are left to use it however and whenever they please.

 

My older children, in college now, have both been praised for having scientific calculators rather than graphing calculators by their calculus professors. The profs said they didn't need them for the class and they would understand the material better if they didn't use them.

 

An inlaw, who taught math in a private high school for years, is suspicious that they are imparing students' ability to understand the point of the math.

 

You can use HP calculators in testing situations, not just TI's. The calculator just has to meet the specifications (no paper printout, no qwerty keyboard, etc.).

 

I've sent my nephew off to try to find all his old handouts, and my son off to get his cousin to show him how to do a few things with the calculator so when we go look at them in the store, he can (hopefully) figure out whether he wants reverse Polish or not. I think he is the sort of person who might. When my oldest was doing math at the public school, he was told by the 9th grade teacher that he could buy any sort of calculator he wanted, but if he didn't buy a TI one, the teacher wouldn't be able to help him figure out how to do things, so we got him a TI. Which he promptly had stolen from him. After that, we bought him a cheap scientific one for 1/10th of the price which he used for the rest of high school (geometry, precalc, and statistics). That was awhile ago, though.

 

Nan

 

Nan, does the part in bold mean ds cannot use his new TI-84Plus on the SAT? I had to make the purchase so quickly that I didn't even have time to come here...which I always do.:tongue_smilie:

[Elizabeth in WA]

Here are the rules for calculators on the SAT:

 

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-reasoning/test-day/expect/calculators

 

It looks to me like to TI-84Plus should be fine, but you can tell by whether it conforms to the posted rules.

[MIch elle]

They used it in grade 9 for algebra 1 and intergrated science. He used it in geometry in 10th grade and this year for alg. 2 and chemistry.

 

Don't ask me how much or what they do, but I know that it's mandatory for both math and science at his private high school.

[Teachin'Mine]

Here's the chart for Texas Instrument calculators. Scroll down to the bottom which shows the tests for which they can be used.

 

http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/nonProductSingle/graphing_course_comparision.html

[Nan in Mass]

Not as far as I know. I was just using TI and HP for the brand names, not particular models. The chart someone linked above shows that it should be ok, I think?

[Teachin'Mine]

Yes the TI-84 Plus is fine for use on the SAT. :)

[LoriM]

in a private classical Christian school (6-8th), and only my Algebra I students in 8th grade use a TI-83 or TI-84 (depending on which they buy). My younger students do have access to calculators in the classroom, but not graphing ones, just basic.

 

Here are some advantages:

 

(1) Kids can quickly generate a set of graphs to represent a function with a variety of y-intercepts. Then we can talk about what those graphs *mean* when the y-intercept changes.

 

(2) Kids who are weak in math facts (and face it, at 14yo if they don't know what 8*7 is they aren't going to bother learning from a flash card) are now much more accurate with *arithmetic* calculations and can concentrate on higher math.

 

(3) Before (2) makes you gasp in horror (LOL), realize that for some kids, seeing 1/8 = 0.125 on their calculator screen is the first time they've put that fact together, because they've *NEVER* learned how to convert a fraction into a decimal, and they haven't memorized the most basic facts about fractions/decimals/percents no matter how wonderful their teacher is and how long she has harped about the necessity of knowing these things...(whew, taking a deep breath...)

 

(4) Calculations for statistics (and generating graphs to go with them) is much faster.

 

Now, I say all that only to say that my dd who graduated with a BA in mathematics used her TI-84 Silver edition all the way from age 16 to age 20, which went from College Algebra to BA Mathematics. :) And yes, I made it through a MS in Statistics/Mathematics with a scientific calculator, and graphed everything by hand. When I didn't write a computer program to do it for me...

 

But, I worried all summer about these 8th graders, and instead I have kids who were bombing arithmetic in the fall mastering it now with a calculator in their hands. It does free some tension, and allows us to move ahead with understanding number and space, without bogging down in the trivial operations.

 

I don't know many companies that give cashiers a pencil and piece of paper to calculate a total of your purchases and apply tax (!), but it's really good if the cashier can estimate and make sure that the five things you purchased should be about $80. That's something that I can emphasize when they have a calculator in their hands. "Does your answer make sense?" is a question I ask about forty times a day. :)