Unbelievable...

[Twinmom]

They've got to be kidding, don't they? Don't they? :confused:

 

http://www.aolnews.com/weird-news/article/university-of-baltimore-pop-culture-class-focuses-on-zombies/19625044

 

I'm all for unique college classes and all, but a minor in pop culture? (Don't most of us qualify for one just by life experience? Could I opt out of classes by writing essays on my said life experience? :D) A whole class on zombies in film? I'm sure that zombie movies are some of the highest quality films a student could study, right? They certainly have deep cultural significance and all that... :glare:

 

I guess I should not be surprised anymore.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Twinmom

[FaithManor]

And exactly what does this minor qualify anyone to do???? At current tuition rates????????

 

Oh, when my brother was in college, there was a class "History Through Nursey Rhymes"...lest you think this was some sort of meaningful literature class in which there really was discourse and debate about the cultures that spawned these little rhymes.....oh no.....the only homework for the class was to memorize five nursery rhymes of at least five lines in length and quote them in front of the class. Otherwise, they spent the class drawing pictures of what "nursery rhymes meant to them". It was worth three credits and satisfied the English elective. My brother said this class filled up on the first day of registration and was always filled by the college football team members.

 

Refrigerator Perry meets Mother Goose....maybe it would have been interesting to be a fly on that classroom wall!

 

I think I am going to have one of those Fridays in which I feel my brain beginning to swell from all of the nonsense in the world.

 

Faith

[Corraleno]

I think it's easy to dismiss these sorts of courses, but why are they any less legitimate than any other lit or film course? The goal of the course on zombi films is "to enable students to take a critical look at our mass media and analyze exactly what it is that it's saying about us as a culture." In other words, they're not just watching movies and taking tests on what actor played what role, they're analyzing how the movies reflect the culture of the times. Ditto with courses on sci fi literature or films.

 

I also don't see anything wrong with a minor in pop culture — again the point isn't to just watch TV and youtube, it's to analyze how trends in pop culture reflect changes in society as a whole. I think it would be a reasonable minor for someone majoring in any of the social sciences, or business, advertising, etc.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Oh, when my brother was in college, there was a class "History Through Nursey Rhymes"...lest you think this was some sort of meaningful literature class in which there really was discourse and debate about the cultures that spawned these little rhymes.....oh no.....the only homework for the class was to memorize five nursery rhymes of at least five lines in length and quote them in front of the class. Otherwise, they spent the class drawing pictures of what "nursery rhymes meant to them". It was worth three credits and satisfied the English elective. My brother said this class filled up on the first day of registration and was always filled by the college football team members.

I think this is actually very common at colleges where sports are huge and they don't care whether the athletes get an education, as long as they maintain a GPA that keeps them eligible. Even at the small LAC I attended, where baseball was really big, there were certain "mick" courses (i.e. Mickey Mouse) where baseball players could be guaranteed an A for very little work. Sounds like this Nursery Rhymes course was designed specifically for the football team.

 

Jackie

[Ailaena]

Sadly, I think that an actual, serious analysis of the zombie through history and among different cultures (literature and film) would be really interesting.

 

 

But to contribute to the topic:D: I know a woman who teaches Spanish at a local state college who minored in Driver's Ed. I understand how you can put a sociological slant on zombies, but driver's ed??? If she weren't such a wonderfully nice and sincere woman I would have died laughing.:lol::lol:

 

 

 

 

 

Aw, I made myself feel bad :(

[SWinner]

I took both windsurfing and advanced sailing classes for college credit. Seemed like fun & easy A's at the time, but after graduating, I ended up earning enough money racing windsurfers and conducting clinics to pay my way through grad school. You never know.

[SWinner]

I agree, sounds like a great class if done right.

[Mimm]

Maybe I'm weird but I love the idea of a zombie film class. I mean, why are they so popular? What's going on in our culture that's fascinated by this post-apocalyptic idea? Is it related to vampire movies? We see movies these days where vampires are more sympathetic, from Twilight to True Blood. Why is that? :) Are good-guy vampires related to superhero movies being popular? We like the idea of immortality, but zombies are all about barely being able to hang on to survival. I think everyone sees something wrong in our society that they would like different, no matter your religious or political bent and sometimes it seems nice to be able to hit a reset button.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Mimm
Hit post too soon. Whoops!

[Twinmom]

Well, all I can say is that I was a sociology major with a psych minor (also masters in social work) and I think this is hysterical. The courses and minor sound like fun, but I can think of a lot of other, better ways to spend my college dollars! :D

[Stacy in NJ]

Shouldn't any person smart enough to qualify for entrance into a university understand that majoring in Pop Culture won't prepare them for any type of reasonable employment? Woe to those who take out a student loan to pay for this nonsense.

[Rosie_0801]

Pop Culture, if taught as a proper sociology class, so they are learning the discipline not just memorising members of boy bands, sounds quite legitimate to me. Anyone who thinks pop culture doesn't have an influence on anything that matters hasn't thought it through properly.

 

Rosie

[radiobrain]

At one of my colleges, they had a "History of Pornography" class. Lets just say, I am sure the college made some extra $$ on that one. It filled a whole auditorium.

 

At my high school, they had a history elective called something like "The History of Sexuality"

 

Both bizarre, and in the 1980s.

 

I think I could get an honorary degree in pop culture. Do they have AP tests yet? Do you get a florescent green mortarboard and madonna gloves for the ceremony? A Prince inspired styled gown? :D

 

Oh, I am all over it.

[Corraleno]

Shouldn't any person smart enough to qualify for entrance into a university understand that majoring in Pop Culture won't prepare them for any type of reasonable employment? Woe to those who take out a student loan to pay for this nonsense.

 

Actually Pop Culture is only offered as a minor, not a major, and I don't see why minoring in Pop Culture would make someone less employable than, say, a degree in Medieval History or Classics or Philosophy. I have a graduate degree in Anthropology from a top university, and I can tell you it's not any more employable than a degree in Pop Culture would be. ;) One might even argue that a Pop Culture minor might make a social science or business grad more employable, especially in marketing or advertising.

 

Most of the people I know ended up in careers that have little or nothing to do with their degree. I think employers mostly look at a BA as proof that a potential employee is reasonably intelligent and capable, it often doesn't even matter what their major was, let alone their minor!

 

Jackie

[eclipse]

I took "British Rock Poetry" and it was one of the most interesting and challenging lit classes of my college career (and I took a lot as an English major). Sure, one class period was spent with the lights off listening to "The Wall," but for the most part there was a lot of tough literary analysis happening. Fron what I know of zombie movies, I could see something like that being a very challenging class for a film or sociology major.

Edited September 11, 2010 by eclipse

[Corraleno]

From what I know of zombie movies, I could see something like that being a very challenging class for a film or sociology major.

Is anyone else thinking "unit study!"? :lol: I actually have a book on real zombis, written by a Harvard ethnobotanist, which covers the political, social, and biochemical aspects of Haitian vodoun culture, including "zombification." I would love to get a copy of the Zombi Film Studies course, and put together a Zombi Anthro unit study. :D

 

Jackie

[WishboneDawn]

At my high school, they had a history elective called something like "The History of Sexuality"

 

Sounds interesting. Sexuality has had a huge influence on culture and identity. It a fundamental part of the human experience...Why wouldn't it be worth at least an elective?

[Mimm]

Love the idea of a zombie unit study though it'd have to be for a kid old enough to handle the gore (and parents who don't mind that type of thing). Shawn of the Dead, Zombieland, maybe a couple zombie video games and for books... The Zombie Survival Guide.

[WishboneDawn]

I took "British Rock Poetry" and it was one of the most interesting and challenging lit classes of my college career (and I took a lot as an English major). Sure, one class period was spent with the lights off listening to "The Wall," but for the most part there was a lot of tough literary analysis happening. Fron what I know of zombie movies, I could see something like that being a very challenging class for a film or sociology major.

 

I'm thinking Night of the Living Dead. It's supposed to be just a zombie flick. But then they went and cast a black actor in the lead. Just because he was the best actor, not to make any commentary. But because it was shot when it was, because in that last scene it's a bunch of white good 'ol boys with rifles looking to take out zombies and ask questions later...Well, I'll just say the movie aquired a whole 'nother layer of horror for me in those last couple of minutes.

 

And that's what so neat about pop culture. We can look at it in a way we simply cant with so much art and literature because we're right in the middle of it! Given a couple of hundred years Night of the Living Dead might just be a classic zombie flick. But right now it has layers, intentional or not, that reflect the issues of today and those shouldn't be excluded from academic discussion because it deals with the undead or was made within our lifetime.

[Tea Time]

I'm thinking Night of the Living Dead. It's supposed to be just a zombie flick. But then they went and cast a black actor in the lead. Just because he was the best actor, not to make any commentary. But because it was shot when it was, because in that last scene it's a bunch of white good 'ol boys with rifles looking to take out zombies and ask questions later...Well, I'll just say the movie aquired a whole 'nother layer of horror for me in those last couple of minutes.

 

And that's what so neat about pop culture. We can look at it in a way we simply cant with so much art and literature because we're right in the middle of it! Given a couple of hundred years Night of the Living Dead might just be a classic zombie flick. But right now it has layers, intentional or not, that reflect the issues of today and those shouldn't be excluded from academic discussion because it deals with the undead or was made within our lifetime.

 

Looking at it that way makes it much more appealing, I agree, but having students who do not see the difference between these types of classes and legitimate ones (we might understandably debate what those might be, I acknowledge, but it is not just anything people come up with)... therein lies the problem. You need the breadth and depth provided by actual "classics" to "study" the now, otherwise it is just "naval gazing." (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but for a long, long time this was a Classical Education board, so it can't be hard to understand the lingering fondness for that kind of education. Call it nostalgic of me.)

 

Certainly it could be a fascinating topic, especially for people interested in the history of film or media. And I totally agree that studying current events, literature, art and culture are relevant because we are submersed in it. But it should be obvious why no one should ever want to pay to take this kind of class. Educated people can study popular culture quite well on their own. In fact, I think that they can't help but do it (and suffer the pain of doing it)! And if it was these student's (hard earned) money instead of their parent's or the government's, most wouldn't. So maybe we are reaching the point where potential employers should feel very dubious about the assumption that people with degrees have a certain level of education. JMHO.

[Stacy in NJ]

Pop Culture, if taught as a proper sociology class, so they are learning the discipline not just memorising members of boy bands, sounds quite legitimate to me. Anyone who thinks pop culture doesn't have an influence on anything that matters hasn't thought it through properly.

 

Rosie

 

Well, pop culture may have an influence on "anything that matters", but I would find it, in an age of unemployment and exploding educational costs, hard to justify on a pragmatic level. There's also the issue of missed opportunity. When taking this course of study other, probably more useful and or meaningful, are not being completed. Of course, everyone is free to spend their educational dollars and time has the see fit.

[Stacy in NJ]

Actually Pop Culture is only offered as a minor, not a major, and I don't see why minoring in Pop Culture would make someone less employable than, say, a degree in Medieval History or Classics or Philosophy. I have a graduate degree in Anthropology from a top university, and I can tell you it's not any more employable than a degree in Pop Culture would be. ;) One might even argue that a Pop Culture minor might make a social science or business grad more employable, especially in marketing or advertising.

 

Most of the people I know ended up in careers that have little or nothing to do with their degree. I think employers mostly look at a BA as proof that a potential employee is reasonably intelligent and capable, it often doesn't even matter what their major was, let alone their minor!

 

Jackie

 

:lol:

 

Your comment is so hugely ironic considering you're posting on a Classical Education forum that I just had to laugh.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Stacy in NJ

[LibraryLover]

'Pop' Culture simply means Popular Culture.

 

Feeding Christians to the lions was once 'Pop' culture, and so was MacBeth.

 

'Porn' can be found in ruins... we are not the first people to 'do it 'all manner of ways and whatnot. ;)

[Tea Time]

'Pop' Culture simply means Popular Culture.

 

Feeding Christians to the lions was once 'Pop' culture, and so was MacBeth.

 

'Porn' can be found in ruins... we are not the first people to 'do it 'all manner of ways and whatnot. ;)

 

Right, and some things survived the test of time while others did not. Your example is a case in point.

 

Naval gazing and "the tyranny of the living" is definitely not new. That is what is so unique about classic style education. It does something different. It changed a bad paradigm, and we have all benefited. For a while, anyway.

[Rosie_0801]

Well, pop culture may have an influence on "anything that matters", but I would find it, in an age of unemployment and exploding educational costs, hard to justify on a pragmatic level. There's also the issue of missed opportunity. When taking this course of study other, probably more useful and or meaningful, are not being completed. Of course, everyone is free to spend their educational dollars and time has the see fit.

 

Ok, what did you study? Science, engineering or economics? :tongue_smilie:

 

One could argue that a person never taking the time to learn to understand the workings of their own culture is missing a lot of important information. Courses like this sound like rubbish if you've not studied those disciplines (sociology, anthropology, even history- and I'm talking about the discipline, not the content) but they can be amongst the most meaningful courses a young person can take for the development of their character. Self awareness is quite valuable. Studying the effects of pop culture is, in my opinion, bucket loads more meaningful than some of the stuff we teach our kids in history and language arts.

 

Of course I'd rather my kids were studying biochemistry or something, with French as their "fun" subject, but that doesn't make these sorts of courses completely worthless. We could talk about missed opportunity until we were blue in the face, but everyone misses opportunities because we can only live one life at a time, but as I said, learning how to view your own culture is a valuable thing.

 

To get personal, I'm sure you would think my degree was a waste of educational dollars, but it was a wonderful use of my money (and the money I'm yet to pay :D) would I want my kids doing it? No. I'm hoping with a WTMish education, they won't need to do such a degree, and can get on to what you call the real stuff. Would I recommend what I did to another kid who was like me, with a very mediocre high school education who didn't have enough perspective on the world to pick a proper direction? I sure would. But we must remember that our student loan system is friendlier than yours, and that makes a very big difference. Personally, I wouldn't consider undergrad courses like this a complete waste of time until the skills and way of thinking learned gets put back into high school where it belongs.

 

Rosie

[Corraleno]

:lol:

 

Your comment is so hugely ironic considering you're posting on a Classical Education forum that I just had to laugh.

 

Exactly my point. ;) Considering that most of our kids are currently studying really "employable" subjects like Latin, Greek, philosophy, logic, Medieval history, etc., it seemed rather ironic to me that the derision was directed at the "employability" of students whose coursework included the analysis of contemporary culture.

 

Truly, why would a student who studied contemporary American culture be less employable than someone with a degree in Latin, or Medieval history? And if "employability" is the only reason to go to college, should we now disband the departments of literature and art history and philosophy and all those other subjects where only a tiny percentage of graduates can find jobs in their field?

 

Jackie

Edited September 11, 2010 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

But it should be obvious why no one should ever want to pay to take this kind of class. Educated people can study popular culture quite well on their own.

LOL, educated people can also study ancient history, literature, philosophy, economics, etc., quite well on their own.

 

I imagine that students would take courses in popular culture, as opposed to studying it on their own, for the same reasons they would take any other courses: it's a topic of interest to them, they enjoy the discussions, they feel it helps them better understand the world they live in, they feel it's relevant to their future career, or maybe they just want an unusual course to add some fun to a schedule otherwise packed with math and science. I took a course in Chinese Calligraphy in college, and another in the History & Philosophy of Alchemy; I enjoyed both of them very much. (And yes, I paid for my own education.)

 

Jackie

Edited September 11, 2010 by Corraleno

[WishboneDawn]

Looking at it that way makes it much more appealing, I agree, but having students who do not see the difference between these types of classes and legitimate ones (we might understandably debate what those might be, I acknowledge, but it is not just anything people come up with)... therein lies the problem. You need the breadth and depth provided by actual "classics" to "study" the now, otherwise it is just "naval gazing." (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but for a long, long time this was a Classical Education board, so it can't be hard to understand the lingering fondness for that kind of education. Call it nostalgic of me.)

 

Of COURSE studying the classics enriches our understanding of modern culture. Having courses that study pop culture aren't a replacement to that. They're an enrichment.

 

Educated people can study popular culture quite well on their own.

 

People can study the classics quite well on their own. People can study many subjects offered in university quite well on their own. That's neither here nor there for me.

[WishboneDawn]

Right, and some things survived the test of time while others did not. Your example is a case in point.

 

Naval gazing and "the tyranny of the living" is definitely not new. That is what is so unique about classic style education. It does something different. It changed a bad paradigm, and we have all benefited. For a while, anyway.

 

Sounds to me like this view of classical education risks being turned in the tyranny of the dead. It's simply reversed the paradigm, not actually re-examined it in any thoughtful way.

 

As for the test of time...Bah. We have copies of Plato, Aristotle, Saphho, Livy, etc. in large part because they were popular enough in their own day that many copies were made so that some survived to be read by us. Heck, would we have Aristotle at all if this idea that popular culture is not worth formal examination was accepted by him? His whole body of work stands in contrast to Plato's and is almost a response.

 

Goodness, what is Augustine decided that Plato should be read but his immediate world wasn't worth examination?

 

If part of the point of a classical education is that it gives us a foundation for understanding this world and it's popular culture then why on earth should we resist education that examines popular culture? Shouldn't that be the natural extension?

[Stacy in NJ]

Pop culture is transient; it is as changable as the wind. Latin, well, not so much. I don't know why you or any one else chooses to pursue a Classical education for your child(ren), but I do so because I believe some values are timeless. Pop culture - not so much. There is lasting value in understanding the foundation of our culture whether that's Latin, Ancient Greek History, or Renaissance Literature which makes its study pragmatic. There is limited intellectual value in the pseudo-sociology of modernity.

 

ETA: Here's a great article written by Walter Russell Mead addressing education in our century. He offers some very sound advice. Pay particular attention to items # 4 and 5, they relate specifically to this discussion.

 

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/08/31/back-to-school/

Edited September 11, 2010 by Stacy in NJ

[Tutor]

I'm not really sure why they offer a minor in pop culture. American Studies is already a viable, legitimate field of study (as are African Studies, British Studies, European Studies, etc.); so is Film Studies. Most schools also offer a degree in Interdisciplinary Studies where students can compose their own specific field. I don't really see the point of a pop culture minor when this theme could be discussed as part of an already existing field.

 

As for me, I'd love to take a class on zombie film, and one of my dh's academic interests (as an English/ American Studies guy) is the representation of werewolves in film, literature, and folklore as an extension of the view of "the native" by the coloniser and the view of the "minority" in general. Zombie films/ folklore have also been studied with these same themes in mind.

[Tea Time]

Of COURSE studying the classics enriches our understanding of modern culture. Having courses that study pop culture aren't a replacement to that. They're an enrichment.

 

I agree, and if that was happening then there would be nothing to discuss, but it is not what is happening. These types of courses are mostly replacement courses in many schools. People really are paying for classes like this instead of rigorous, academic courses. They pay the same price for each, and certain "majors" have the same degree conferred upon them despite what classes were taken. It cheapens the degree, and employers will eventually take notice of it. Eventually. Are there exceptions where people are studying Latin and classic literature too? Perhaps, but those people are not who I am talking about here.

 

People can study the classics quite well on their own. People can study many subjects offered in university quite well on their own. That's neither here nor there for me.

 

In truth people can study anything on their own, once they have a lot of basic skills that are more difficult to get. It is not as easy to study Latin as it is to study zombies. One is worth paying for, the other is not. So it is here and it is there for me.

 

Perhaps I am an idealist, but I envision an education system where thousands of dollars are not wasted on enrichment but rather people were being educated so that all of the other things they see and do would then be enriching.

 

It can never be "tyranny of the dead" because we cannot escape the present. We need history and tradition to understand the present and for studying the present to be enriching. We can be deprived of important information if we ignore that. And that is exactly what some people would like to see happen, which is why this topic can generate any controversy at all.

 

Zombies and Latin must be put on the same intellectual footing in order to dumb down the masses through public education. It is working. Like a charm.

[Tea Time]

Pop culture is transient; it is as changable as the wind. Latin, well, not so much. I don't know why you or any one else chooses to pursue a Classical education for your child(ren), but I do so because I believe some values are timeless. Pop culture - not so much. There is lasting value in understanding the foundation of our culture whether that's Latin, Ancient Greek History, or Renaissance Literature which makes its study pragmatic. There is limited intellectual value in the pseudo-sociology of modernity.

 

ETA: Here's a great article written by Walter Russell Mead addressing education in our century. He offers some very sound advice. Pay particular attention to items # 4 and 5, they relate specifically to this discussion.

 

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/08/31/back-to-school/

 

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing. I am going to pass it on to my kiddos (both in college). We have already talked a lot about this subject, of course. It is nice to hear someone else tell them what I have been saying for so long. My dd just transferred from a very academic liberal arts college to one that is less so but has the major that she really wants to pursue. It happens to be film and cinema, so that is why this thread caught my eye. I am very grateful that the first two years of her education were spent on the classics and in traveling Europe. She will end up with a double, possibly triple, major that will counter balance the stunted features of a simple film/cinema degree. She will not suffer the myopia of the zombies. Thank God.

[Tea Time]

I'm not really sure why they offer a minor in pop culture. American Studies is already a viable, legitimate field of study (as are African Studies, British Studies, European Studies, etc.); so is Film Studies. Most schools also offer a degree in Interdisciplinary Studies where students can compose their own specific field. I don't really see the point of a pop culture minor when this theme could be discussed as part of an already existing field.

 

As for me, I'd love to take a class on zombie film, and one of my dh's academic interests (as an English/ American Studies guy) is the representation of werewolves in film, literature, and folklore as an extension of the view of "the native" by the coloniser and the view of the "minority" in general. Zombie films/ folklore have also been studied with these same themes in mind.

 

 

So will they study zombies from the point of view of a "culture of death"? Something completely obvious like that? Will that theme be considered?

[eclipse]

The way I see it, the goal of a class like this is not to have the students leave with an encyclopedic knowlege of the history of zombie movies. If it was, I would agree that it would be a mostly worthless class. The goal is (I would assume) for students to leave the class able to use the analytical skills they probably first learned while studying classic literature (or film) and apply them to other things - in this case, to recently or currently produced media. I think that is a valuable skill - looking at your own world with the same eye you use to look at past cultures. For other students, it could go the other way - analyzing something current and possibly meaningful to them as a gateway to understanding more classic media. This is the same reason I don't mind my son reading comic books, as long as that's not all he reads. There are some themes that are universal, and I love seeing him draw the connections between his/our world and things we study for "school."

[Tutor]

So will they study zombies from the point of view of a "culture of death"? Something completely obvious like that? Will that theme be considered?

 

Since I am currently not enrolled in such a class and not an American or Film Studies Scholar (just a film buff married to such a scholar), all that follows is speculation, but I don't see why not. The types of movies that are made and become popular reveal a lot about what is at the forefront of the mind of a culture. The current popularity of zombie and vampire films is most assuredly being studied in classes like this for what they reveal about American's view of death, afterlife, and the value of life in addition to other themes (like treatment of minorities, colonialism, class systems, etc). Monster movies also allow the investigation of ideas and themes that cannot be investigated in movies populated by "regular" people because of pre-existing prejudices and social mores clouding the viewer's absorption of the topics presented. For example, District 9 (where aliens who become stranded in South Africa are placed in government-controlled ghettos) was able to present a no-holds-barred view of apartheid without having to pour salt into the wounds of black/ white race relations.

[Stacy in NJ]

If you bothered to delve more into the topic, rather than assume things, you'd find that this is one course in a Corporate Communications major. Wowsers! In this major, they are required to take courses in writing, philosophy, and even history.

 

Nothing personally aimed at you, but I find it strange to denigrate a choice made by another adult as to their interest of studies. Not everyone chooses majors based on "timeless values", employability, or salary.

 

It would help, though, if people could at least make an effort to learn about a topic before they poo poo it. How do we know these adults didn't already study Latin, ancient Greece, etc? How can we compare our children's classes with college courses? Who are we to say one way is so superior to all other ways, when we know nothing of the "others"? I see no rhyme or reason there.

 

Right. Who is to know anything about anything. It's all good. It's all equal. All choices are equally valid. Blah...Blah...Blah.

[Tea Time]

Since I am currently not enrolled in such a class and not an American or Film Studies Scholar (just a film buff married to such a scholar), all that follows is speculation, but I don't see why not. The types of movies that are made and become popular reveal a lot about what is at the forefront of the mind of a culture. The current popularity of zombie and vampire films is most assuredly being studied in classes like this for what they reveal about American's view of death, afterlife, and the value of life in addition to other themes (like treatment of minorities, colonialism, class systems, etc). Monster movies also allow the investigation of ideas and themes that cannot be investigated in movies populated by "regular" people because of pre-existing prejudices and social mores clouding the viewer's absorption of the topics presented. For example, District 9 (where aliens who become stranded in South Africa are placed in government-controlled ghettos) was able to present a no-holds-barred view of apartheid without having to pour salt into the wounds of black/ white race relations.

 

I will find out first hand from my dd who is in film school now, maybe not on this particular topic but related themes. I am very skeptical that the themes they present will be well balanced. It still seems that there is a strong preference for only some points of view. I admit to being quite jaded by what I have seen in academia with my kiddos so far. That is why a broad history and literature background is so vital. I'm looking forward to hearing what she studies.

 

I just want to say that I loved District 9. Very clever. It was so much better, IMO, than Avatar.

[Tea Time]

If you bothered to delve more into the topic, rather than assume things, you'd find that this is one course in a Corporate Communications major. Wowsers! In this major, they are required to take courses in writing, philosophy, and even history.

 

Nothing personally aimed at you, but I find it strange to denigrate a choice made by another adult as to their interest of studies. Not everyone chooses majors based on "timeless values", employability, or salary.

 

It would help, though, if people could at least make an effort to learn about a topic before they poo poo it. How do we know these adults didn't already study Latin, ancient Greece, etc? How can we compare our children's classes with college courses? Who are we to say one way is so superior to all other ways, when we know nothing of the "others"? I see no rhyme or reason there.

 

But it is okay for you to assume that we have not made any effort to learn about this topic?

 

That is a very wrong assumption. I am up to my ears in understanding this topic. Including my financial ears.

 

We know people have not studied Latin and Greek because we have met them. And mine HAS studied Latin as well as a lot of classic literature and history. People who have done a lot of that are not what I am concerned about. Saying that people who have done that have the same degree as people who have not done that is of great concern to me. They are not equal educations.

 

Some of us have kiddos in college and we have seen what they are studying and compared it to other colleges and other classes. There is plenty of rhyme and reason going on, and some of it is quite worrisome when you do actually "make an effort to learn about [the] topic."

[Jilly]

I find nothing wrong with a minor in Pop Culture. This is a very relevant topic in our society, and I am sure the students use many valuable skills in analyzing the culture.

 

Of course I majored in film studies, and I have never felt it was a waste of my time or my money.

[Corraleno]

I agree, and if that was happening then there would be nothing to discuss, but it is not what is happening. These types of courses are mostly replacement courses in many schools. People really are paying for classes like this instead of rigorous, academic courses. They pay the same price for each, and certain "majors" have the same degree conferred upon them despite what classes were taken. It cheapens the degree, and employers will eventually take notice of it. Eventually. Are there exceptions where people are studying Latin and classic literature too? Perhaps, but those people are not who I am talking about here.

I am up to my ears in understanding this topic. Including my financial ears.

 

We know people have not studied Latin and Greek because we have met them. And mine HAS studied Latin as well as a lot of classic literature and history. People who have done a lot of that are not what I am concerned about. Saying that people who have done that have the same degree as people who have not done that is of great concern to me. They are not equal educations.

 

Some of us have kiddos in college and we have seen what they are studying and compared it to other colleges and other classes. There is plenty of rhyme and reason going on, and some of it is quite worrisome when you do actually "make an effort to learn about [the] topic."

It seems to me that your biggest concern is that employers will not recognize that your children's education is vastly superior to others who have the same degree. You're afraid that employers will look at your DD's Film degree and assume that <gasp> she may have taken lots of lightweight courses instead of Latin and classics, after you spent all the money on her education. So the solution is that everyone should be made to study the same classical subjects, so that your own children's degrees will not be "cheapened"? Rather than the tyranny of the living or the tyranny of the dead, we have the tyranny of Tea Time, who gets to decide what is or isn't a "legitimate" subject of study? :confused:

 

Jackie

[Tea Time]

It seems to me that your biggest concern is that employers will not recognize that your children's education is vastly superior to others who have the same degree. You're afraid that employers will look at your DD's Film degree and assume that <gasp> she may have taken lots of lightweight courses instead of Latin and classics, after you spent all the money on her education. So the solution is that everyone should be made to study the same classical subjects, so that your own children's degrees will not be "cheapened"? Rather than the tyranny of the living or the tyranny of the dead, we have the tyranny of Tea Time, who gets to decide what is or isn't a "legitimate" subject of study? :confused:

 

Jackie

 

Personal attacks that include mind reading on your part are not helpful, and I would request that you stick to my points and refrain from them, please. Using the small bit of personal information I brought into this thread in this manner makes the title of the thread all the more appropriate. "Unbelievable."

[Corraleno]

Personal attacks that include mind reading on your part are not helpful, and I would request that you stick to my points and refrain from them, please. Using the small bit of personal information I brought into this thread in this manner makes the title of the thread all the more appropriate. "Unbelievable."

 

It was not a personal attack, and I did "stick to your points." Your points included: your daughter is getting a film degree; she has studied Latin and Classics; courses in subjects you disapprove of, like popular culture and the zombi film course, "cheapen" degrees; you are "greatly concerned" about the fact that people who have not done the courses your daughter did will have the same degree, which "is not equal educations," and that this is a financial concern for you. Those were your words, and I expressed my response to your opinions.

 

It is my opinion that courses in social science, American Studies, and Pop Culture are neither less employable nor inherently inferior to Latin, classics, medieval history, etc. I don't think a classical education is the be-all and end-all or even the best education for every student, and I don't think Universities need to focus on a narrow range of subjects so that students who do study Latin & classics won't have their degrees "cheapened" by those who choose to study other things.

 

Jackie

[MSNative]

What I'm hearing are two very diff. points of view. One side believes that any topic is valid for learning analytical and reasoning skills. The other side is saying that classes like Pop Culture studies are fluff. I think both sides are right. Ideally, a prof. could teach all sorts of fabulous skills using any topic as the launching pad. However, we have all seen the fluff classes that do not teach anything.

 

As an econ major, I agree with the poster who mentioned opportunity cost (I mean, how could I not agree, really?) :) The class may or may not be a fine class, but what else could the kid take and would that other course of study be better?

[Tea Time]

It was not a personal attack, and I did "stick to your points." Your points included: your daughter is getting a film degree; she has studied Latin and Classics; courses in subjects you disapprove of, like popular culture and the zombi film course, "cheapen" degrees; you are "greatly concerned" about the fact that people who have not done the courses your daughter did will have the same degree, which "is not equal educations," and that this is a financial concern for you. Those were your words, and I expressed my response to your opinions.

 

It is my opinion that courses in social science, American Studies, and Pop Culture are neither less employable nor inherently inferior to Latin, classics, medieval history, etc. I don't think a classical education is the be-all and end-all or even the best education for every student, and I don't think Universities need to focus on a narrow range of subjects so that students who do study Latin & classics won't have their degrees "cheapened" by those who choose to study other things.

 

Jackie

 

So you do think that Latin = zombie class.

 

Okay. But my daughter is not the main point of my part of this discussion. Far from it. I do have a dog in this race though, and I have taken time to understand the subject.

 

I am sorry if my POV comes off as "snobbish" to you. That is what you are reacting to, if I try to read your mind like you just did mine. You sound offended because I think my child's education is "superior," although I did not say that. I can see why you might react to my posts in that manner, and for that I apologize, but I think you are totally ignoring a whole lot of other things that I said.

 

This is a classical education board, so it should not surprise anyone here that some people think that type of education is superior and will say as much, and your post, because it talks about my personal motives is crossing a line. It doesn't bother me though, because I do care about how I come off and I want to understand how you are taking things.

 

The truth is that I do think my kid's education is better than the standard degree, but just barely. It is very hard now days to get a good education by the standard methods available all around us. You really do have to work hard to get one. In our household we are not classically trained by any stretch of the imagination. But we do respect those people who are or who were in the past. I also respect those people who have studied math and science in a truly rigorous manner because I think that is equally under attack by those who would equate watered down math and science subjects with hard-core ones. That just isn't happening quite the same way, nor does it carry quite the same implications for indoctrinating ideas that these subjects carry.

 

And I never suggested we take away people's freedom to choose what to study. My first post says clearly there is room for debate. I have also made comments that make it very clear (if you are even reading them -?) that I find the subjects VERY interesting and worthwhile. I just think it is silly to charge money for some subjects that colleges should offer as "enrichment" or by some other means. These subjects just seem separate from what should be included in any coherent degree program, especially if it is being offered in many places. Anther option which I like would be for employers to stop giving such credit to degrees at all and look for other things when hiring. Maybe the stranglehold of the degree process needs to crack a little. I don't know. There are many angles to look at this.

 

What a "degree" means should at least be clear and understandable, or it is, in fact, cheapened.

 

I do not know why it is so hard to find something to agree upon, somewhere.

[LibraryLover]

Right, and some things survived the test of time while others did not. Your example is a case in point.

 

Naval gazing and "the tyranny of the living" is definitely not new. That is what is so unique about classic style education. It does something different. It changed a bad paradigm, and we have all benefited. For a while, anyway.

 

What didn't survive the test of time? Giant stadiums filled with screaming crowds? Porn? Macbeth?

 

I imagine that a film degree will be tested if and when a person makes a film or two people want to watch.

[Tea Time]

What didn't survive the test of time? Giant stadiums filled with screaming crowds? Porn? Macbeth?

Well, I was thinking that Macbeth survived, stadiums do not generally allow the killing of people or animals for entertainment, porn has been frowned upon widely by most people, and the killing of Christians didn't survive in the civilized world, but... again it seems we are being forced to accept that "it is all good and nothing matters," (like Stacy pointed out), so no surprise these things are all shifting around lately.

 

I imagine that a film degree will be tested if and when a person makes a film or two people want to watch.

I am not sure how many people that work on films have that kind of degree. Obviously the entire enterprise came into existence without such a thing, so it can clearly be done without one. She doesn't want them to tell her the art of movie making, she wants them to teach her the technology and techniques and leave off on the philosophizing about it. She can do that on her own time and without spending a dime.

[WishboneDawn]

porn has been frowned upon widely by most people

 

Hey, it survived the test of time. And I'm quite sure that's because a great deal of people smiled rather then frowned upon it.

 

I think part of the issue might be that, "it's all good and nothing matters." The issue is that it's all worth study so that people can make their own judgement about the worth of it.

[WishboneDawn]

 

This is a classical education board, so it should not surprise anyone here that some people think that type of education is superior and will say as much...

 

I don't get why you've set up this dichotomy. Why addressing pop culture means excluding a classical education. Why a classical education means pop culture must be viewed as inferior.

 

Is a classical education measured simply by what a child reads and studys or by what a child learns about how to approach, digest and reason about what they read and study? If the former, what's the point? If the latter, why get so worked up about pop culture studies when we're probably raising kids that will be able to get more out of it then most?

 

My daughter and I read The Odyssey. We had a lot of fun with it but I've got to tell you, one of the neatest moments was when we heard The Fugues on the radio singing Killing Me Softly. As we listened we realized it could very well have been a song describing Odysseus as he sat at the banquet with the Phaeacians listening to the blind bard singing about him. It didn't cause us to sneer at Killing Me Softly or think it inferior because it hadn't, "survived the test of time," as The Odyssey had. It made us appreciate it deeply - the lyrics, the music, the mood of that particular version.

 

Our reading of a classic gave of a moment of appreciation for the beauty of one small piece of pop culture. The deeper I go into classics the more I find that happening. To get poetic about it, the more I study the roots, the more I appreciate the leaves.

 

I think it's a real shame if some people reject that.

Edited September 11, 2010 by WishboneDawn

[LibraryLover]

Hey, it survived the test of time. And I'm quite sure that's because a great deal of people smiled rather then frowned upon it.

 

QUOTE]

 

Yes. And let us then call it erotica. :) Artsy people make good, non-exploitive money there. In the test of time, lets cut to the chase-- A+-- and in the literary realm, too. Anais Nin, anyone? There's even a perfume. ;)

Edited September 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Tea Time]

I don't get why you've set up this dichotomy. Why addressing pop culture means excluding a classical education. Why a classical education means pop culture must be viewed as inferior.

 

Is a classical education measured simply by what a child reads and studys or by what a child learns about how to approach, digest and reason about what they read and study? If the former, what's the point? If the latter, why get so worked up about pop culture studies when we're probably raising kids that will be able to get more out of it then most?

 

My daughter and I read The Odyssey. We had a lot of fun with it but I've got to tell you, one of the neatest moments was when we heard The Fugues on the radio singing Killing Me Softly. As we listened we realized it could very well have been a song describing Odysseus as he sat at the banquet with the Phaeacians listening to the blind bard singing about him. It didn't cause us to sneer at Killing Me Softly or think it inferior because it hadn't, "survived the test of time," as The Odyssey had. It made us appreciate it deeply - the lyrics, the music, the mood of that particular version.

 

Our reading of a classic gave of a moment of appreciation for the beauty of one small piece of pop culture. The deeper I go into classics the more I find that happening. To get poetic about it, the more I study the roots, the more I appreciate the leaves.

 

I think it's a real shame if some people reject that.

 

That is AMAZING! I love it!

 

Where are you getting that I am rejecting that? THAT is the whole goal of classical education. And it is amazing. I have moments like that all of the time with my dd. (ds... not so much... he is more inclined to ask about electricity and how it works. LoL).

 

The poster who brought up economics really hit the nail on the head, if choices have to be made (and they do), then this type of stuff in a curriculum should be limited. Fluff is all too abundant. Really.

 

My point has been all along that paying for this is in college is probably not the best use of resources and would become completely unnecessary with a good education. You are doing it already and tuition free!

 

That is JMHO, and I am entitled to it. Stop telling me it is wrong when your (not your personally but generally) whole point is that no one's opinion is ever wrong. Besides, you can always chalk it up to a superiority complex and dismiss it like Dot just did (which isn't a rude comment, right?).

Edited September 12, 2010 by Tea Time
Had to fix JMOH to JMHO because I don't know what JMOH means!