Gifted - inborn or developed?

[Embassy]

I was reading an old thread earlier today where it discussed the idea that children may not be born gifted, but may be gifted as a result of their environment. This idea doesn't make sense to me. A child who becomes gifted as a result of a good environment isn't the same. The gifted mind is not just advanced, it performs differently.

 

A quote from the upsidedownworld:

 

What I have found out, however, is that high intelligence entails not just being able to learn new things quickly and easily, but affects a person’s entire experience of life. People with unusually high intelligence take in and aquire information differently, process that information differently. They frequently experience emotions and physical stimuli more intensely than others. They have motivations and drives which others often find odd or bizarre. In short, being unusually intelligent tends to create a whole life experience which is markedly more complicated and intense than what most people experience.

 

Can IQ really measure this?

[Bostonian]

Intelligence, like skin color, height, and many other human characteristics, has a strong genetic component. Very high intelligence cannot be created by a good environment, as demonstrated by adoption studies where the adoptees resemble their biological parents more than their adopted ones in IQ. A bad enough environment can harm a child's IQ, but I doubt anyone reading the WTM forum is providing such an environment.

[MissKNG]

What about profoundly gifted children who do, in fact, grow up in a bad environment? Is that inborn? I sure think so:

 

I know a man who is PG especially in math and science who spent his childhood years in WWII Germany. Most of the time, he was starving, homeless, amongst unimaginable carnage, and of course, no education. One day, he saw someone riding a bicycle and decided he wanted one too. So he began to build his very own bicycle but scrounging parts...at 6 years old. Fast forward to 9 years old, he built a working motorcycle also by scrounging parts. Probably very little education at this point as the war was over and kids were starting to go to school.

 

There is absolutely no way this child's environment created his giftedness. With this particular child, you can not deny the genetics.

[MeredithMcC]

Wow, what an interesting discussion. I have one highly gifted kid and two who are really intelligent. However, the hg kid just "thinks differently". His mind works in ways that I have to read books about in order to grasp. :laugh: All three have grown up with the same love, nurture, family, education, etc.

 

I think intellect can be built, but the inner workings of the mind are the creator's domain...

 

Meredith

[2smartones]

I think intellect can be built, but the inner workings of the mind are the creator's domain...

:iagree:

[Rosie_0801]

I have a friend who tested at 80 as a tot (I'm sure tests at that age are very reliable.) His mother took a year off to work with him, and after that, he tested at 160. When she was looking for schools for him, he was turned down by a couple because they couldn't provide a program suitable. He'd been born dead, and revived. I'm sure that is going to do weird things to a person's brain, but she managed to reverse a lot of it. If not for that little handicap, his IQ might have been even higher! He's intimidating enough as it is :)

 

 

Rosie

[MommaofBoys]

I think it's some of both. You can stifle a gifted mind, or you can give it an environment that allows it to develop, or one that encourages it to develop. Think about Rene Spitz research on orphans who were touch deprived.

IQ testing is inherently biased towards people who have access to information. If you have a six-year-old who is a genius, but who has not been exposed to the alphabet or numbers, how well is that child going to test? I don't think there's any practical way around that, but it does mean that in getting a high IQ test score, the nurture of the child matters.

[Crimson Wife]

The brain is like a muscle- the more somebody challenges it, the smarter that person going to become. BUT...

 

Some people's muscles grow faster than others with the same amount of training. So it's the interaction of nature & nurture that produces high achievement.

[EKS]

So it's the interaction of nature & nurture that produces high achievement.

 

:iagree:

[MamaJo]

Both. :D

[zaichiki]

I think intellect can be built, but the inner workings of the mind are the creator's domain...

 

Meredith

 

Ah, Meredith -- yes, indeed. :iagree:

[JenneinCA]

I think the potential is inborn and the accomplishments are developed.

[MaMa2005]

Oh, this question has been hotly debated in our family for three years.

 

A little background - DS was adopted from China at 26 months and had been in an orphanage his entire life. I knew immediately that we had some major developmental issues - rocking, hitting himself, totally non-verbal, no affect as well as major gross motor issues. Get home and he is diagnosised - institutionalized autism. Can he overcome his early years????

 

Fast forward three years. DS is PG, talks like an adult, talks ALL THE TIME, wonderful affect, has to be reminded occasionally not to hit self, rocks only if he is tired. He still has some gross motor delays. No one would ever believe he once had a diagnosis of institutionalized autism.

 

I cannot take any credit for his genetic makeup, but can take credit for the fact that he has landed with a family of teachers who knew how to create a stimulating environment. Myself, his dad, both grandparents, and his aunt all have doctorates. My doctorate is in special education. His aunt and grandmother are on the genius spectrum. Is the stimulating environment in which he finds himself the result of his PG or is it his genetic makeup? A combination of both?

[MeredithMcC]

This discussion is so fascinating to me. I'm glad to be reminded that I must do all I can to continue to provide the "nurture" part of God's Good Nature. The funny thing is that even that is only by His grace. Sigh. God help me! :0

 

Keep it coming, ladies...you encourage me.

 

Meredith

[Geek]

The gifted mind is not just advanced, it performs differently.

Quite. Gifted doesn't equate to high intelligence, though that is part of it. It really describes a certain kind of mind.

 

A quote from the upsidedownworld:

 

What I have found out, however, is that high intelligence entails not just being able to learn new things quickly and easily, but affects a person’s entire experience of life. People with unusually high intelligence take in and aquire information differently, process that information differently. They frequently experience emotions and physical stimuli more intensely than others. They have motivations and drives which others often find odd or bizarre. In short, being unusually intelligent tends to create a whole life experience which is markedly more complicated and intense than what most people experience.

Can IQ really measure this?It's not measuring that. It's measuring a certain kind of thinking, which tends to go hand in hand with all those other quirks and challenges. There's a reason why Asperger's has been nicknamed the Geek Syndrome.

 

But there isn't a perfect correlation between IQ and those quirks because there are geniuses with some social skills, and there are Aspies and Auties with such severe quirks that their IQ doesn't serve them well in daily life. And (Quirks + IQ) taken to the extreme = savantism.

 

Higher IQ isn't always beneficial in terms of practical survival and is sometimes quite the opposite. Some studies have suggested that 140 is the peak of that balance between high intelligence and ability to navigate the real world well enough to succeed in it. (I'd have to dig to find you links, though, as my info is secondhand and came out of a lot of discussion about IQ on another forum I'm on.)

Edited July 23, 2010 by Geek

[WishboneDawn]

nevermind :)

[Tracy]

My dh is a high school teacher. We often talk of kids who have been academically neglected for so long that they have bypassed the window of opportunity to reach their highest potential. They may still be able to learn much, but not as much as if they had started in elementary school. The result is entire classrooms of children that can barely read. I think in this environment, kids who in the past would have been average are now being considered gifted. They have parents and families that nurture their intellect, and relative to their peers, they seem gifted.

[MaMa2005]

Higher IQ isn't always beneficial in terms of practical survival and is sometimes quite the opposite. Some studies have suggested that 140 is the peak of that balance between high intelligence and ability to navigate the real world well enough to succeed in it.

 

Oh, you hit the nail on the head. Both my MIL and SIL have over the top IQs. All of us in the family say that when God was handing out common sense, they somehow missed that line and got an extra portion of intelligence.

 

Both of them have 'learned' how to get along in the real world, mostly due to understanding husbands who have helped them learn how to handle social situations.

[HeidiD]

It really describes a certain kind of mind.

 

How is that kind of mind defined/measured?

 

 

Some studies have suggested that 140 is the peak of that balance between high intelligence and ability to navigate the real world well enough to succeed in it. (I'd have to dig to find you links, though, as my info is secondhand and came out of a lot of discussion about IQ on another forum I'm on.)

 

 

Oh, that's grim news. Hopefully I'm one of the exceptions to those studies. I do tend to go through life concealing many of my thoughts, though (not usually a lot of people on the same wavelength in a typical crowd :).) But that's a common sense social skill anyway, whether you're biting your tongue because people can't relate to your thought processes or opinions or simply because something you're thinking might bore them or hurt their feelings or be taken negatively for whatever reason.

 

My daughter with Aspergers, however (also adopted with a deprived beginning in life) has had to be taught to monitor her remarks. Her tendency is to say whatever comes to mind. :tongue_smilie:

[SnegurochkaL]

I think the potential is inborn and the accomplishments are developed.[/QUO TE]

 

 

I agree with this!

My mom had an Uncle who could only read and write( born before WWI), but he was very mechanically gifted. He also experimented with fruit trees trying to create new hybrids of apples. I never had better apples than from my grandmother's orchid. My Great Uncle used my grandmother's garden for his scientific experiments. My Grandmother call him "Young Michurin" (a very famous Russian scientist).

 

I think that gens are important as well as an environment where the gifted child is living. I also think that a lot of limitation/restriction initiate creativity and make your mind to boil ( in a positive way).

 

The Necessity is the Mother of Invention:)

[asta]

So it's the interaction of nature & nurture that produces high achievement.

 

But I would argue...

 

Who is defining "achievement"?

 

And by what measuring stick?

 

Some kids don't test well (or haven't been tested) - period. Yet it is obvious to any single person or doctor that they are a genius, simply by how they think and operate. Just like the kid with the bike.

 

 

asta

[HeidiD]

But I would argue...

 

Who is defining "achievement"?

 

And by what measuring stick?

 

Some kids don't test well (or haven't been tested) - period. Yet it is obvious to any single person or doctor that they are a genius, simply by how they think and operate. Just like the kid with the bike.

 

 

asta

 

 

Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences:

 

http://www.infed.org/thinkers/gardner.htm

 

Lack of a measuring stick for obvious reasons - but it does attempt to define major areas of observable strengths that may exist in various combinations within each person.

 

Ability and achievement - both can be subjective or objective depending on your point of view. :)

[TracyP]

So it's the interaction of nature & nurture that produces high achievement.

 

But I would argue...

 

Who is defining "achievement"?

 

And by what measuring stick?

 

Some kids don't test well (or haven't been tested) - period. Yet it is obvious to any single person or doctor that they are a genius, simply by how they think and operate. Just like the kid with the bike.

 

 

asta

 

I can't answer what someone else means, but when I think "achievement" I don't think test scores at all. When I think achievement I think having a positive impact on society, living to your potential, etc. Example: my FIL is a "genius" who has bad hygiene, drinks too much, is mean to his wife, and can't hold down a job. Nature made him a genius, Nurture made him a loser. I think they both are vital to "achievement" except in rare exceptions.

[mycalling]

 

I think in this environment, kids who in the past would have been average are now being considered gifted. They have parents and families that nurture their intellect, and relative to their peers, they seem gifted.

:iagree:This is what I tell other parents who dismiss their children's ability to achieve beyond the current "average." Average isn't much these days. I think it's well below what average used to be...or should be now.

[JennyD]

I have been reading an interesting book on this very subject, The Genius in All of Us: Why Everything You've Been Told About Genetics, Talent, and IQ is Wrong, by David Shenk. The title is a bit sensationalistic, but the gist of the author's argument is that the nature vs. nurture dichotomy is fundamentally flawed. Contemporary gene theory, according to his review, suggests that genes are not blueprints, but more like control switches. You inherit your genes, which are enormously important, but the way that they are expressed (activated/deactivated) is influenced by a huge range of other stimuli, including nutrtition, hormones, other genes, environment, etc.

 

It's a good read and quite thought-provoking.