Moving again...need to bounce around some ideas

[Barb_]

Okay, I need to think aloud for a minute. Rich has been out of work since May 1. We are okay for the time being because of his six months severance package but of course the sooner he's back to work, the better. He is currently in the running neck and neck with only one other candidate for two very good jobs, one in San Francisco and one in the Chicago area, so the chances are he will have at least one offer by the end of the month. Unfortunately these are not cheap places to live. He's leaning more heavily toward the San Francisco job because that company jives more with his personal philosophy and he just flat out likes his potential boss.

 

Here's the problem. We moved to the Phoenix area in 2006. We paid $479K for our house and now it's worth about $220K. Seeing that on paper makes me all swooney. So we can either hand the keys over, short sale, or try to hang on and rent it out. We prefer the last scenario for the obvious reasons, but also because we're in our 40's and will have a slew of grandkids when we retire in about 20 years. Wouldn't it be great to own a 5br in AZ to host big Christmas celebrations?? Sigh, it's a lovely dream, but the difference between our mortgage payment and possible rent is about $800-$1000 each month. That really limits us as to what we can rent for our family in the new city. The Chicago suburbs will run us about $3000-3500K/month for a 4br with a basement near his job. All told, our expenses will go up about $1500 a month. Then if we have a renter gap, we have to absorb our mortgage for that period of time. We have savings to pull from, but I'd rather not as we're saving for a down payment for another house. We have about 10% but not the 20% that most people want nowdays.

 

San Francisco is completely out of the question. We can't move there. Even with an hour plus commute, the prices aren't reasonable. If he takes this job he'll have to go rent an apartment or a small house with the hour commute and we'll just go out there and stay with him for 3-4 weeks at a time a few times a year. He would fly back here twice a month for a long weekend.

 

So I started thinking, maybe we should do something similar with Chicago if he winds up there. What if he rents a small place for closer to $1500-$1700 a month and we stayed with him 6-7 months out of the year? We could go out there in May, escape the Phoenix summer, go through the fall and the holidays letting the kids get the snow out of their system and then return here for the Spring semester. We could even rent our furnished house to vacationers during the nice months and make a little money back. Mostly this takes away the fear of the rent gap.

 

Is there anything else I should be thinking of? I'm trying to get creative. We're stuck with some great choices requiring difficult decisions.

 

Barb

[Starr]

You've got some big money issues and lots of creativity but I really feel if at all possible a family needs to be together. I would work some more on options myself.

[rwjx2khsmj]

That's a tough situation. How are you without dh and how is he without you and the family? Living separately like that is really only an option if it works for all of you. What kind of support system do you have in AZ?

 

The idea of keeping the house and renting small is lovely. We've also had some great success with renting large houses for our family on vacation using VRBO.com. If staying in AZ becomes reality, it might be worth checking out.

 

We've recently talked about moving to our dream area and buying a house which we would rent in the summer while we traveled to see various relatives. DH has a heavy travel job and we spend a lot of time apart. It's not where I thought we'd be at this point in our lives. I'm thankful for the time we spend together and the relationships that keeps us going.

[Parrothead]

Oh, I don't know about that living so far from the family. Dh and I almost got divorced when we did that. It could get so easy to shuffle him our of your lives. From my past experience, I would not recommend that to any married couple.

[Barb_]

Oh, I don't know about that living so far from the family. Dh and I almost got divorced when we did that. It could get so easy to shuffle him our of your lives. From my past experience, I would not recommend that to any married couple.

 

I can't say it doesn't worry me a little. We've done it in the past with mixed success. We were separated for 6 months when were about 30 and that worked out fine. But when we lived in two states (PA and AZ) during '05 and '06 things did get hairy at one point. But our marriage was going through a darker period at the time and things are much better now. When you were separated, how often did you see one another? We are thinking that we could go out for a month at a time 4 times a year if he were in CA and he could fly in twice a month when we're here. In Chicago we'd live there for 6-7 months and here for 5-6.

 

How do military families handle it?

 

Barb

[Barb_]

That's a tough situation. How are you without dh and how is he without you and the family? Living separately like that is really only an option if it works for all of you. What kind of support system do you have in AZ?

 

Eh, we have friends but all of our family is back East. But I'm used to living without a support system because his job has taken us all over the country. Our nuclear family operates pretty much as its own support system. He tends to have final say as to where we move so that he can go where the best jobs are, and I function more as the head of the family as far as the day to day stuff is concerned. So his not being here isn't an administrative adjustment as much as we'd just miss him.

 

The idea of keeping the house and renting small is lovely. We've also had some great success with renting large houses for our family on vacation using VRBO.com. If staying in AZ becomes reality, it might be worth checking out.

 

I've done the same. It's so much more reasonable to do that when you have a large family. We rented a house over Christmas and my parents even stayed with us. I'm only concerned about our personal items, but I suppose we could just lock it all up in the garage.

 

DH has a heavy travel job and we spend a lot of time apart. It's not where I thought we'd be at this point in our lives. I'm thankful for the time we spend together and the relationships that keeps us going.

 

Same here. This would probably be a temporary thing for us. If we moved to Chicago, we'd save for a couple of years and then buy a house and move everything out there. The company he's looking at there is just local. If we moved to CA, he'd work there for while and eventually transfer to a place back East because that organization is nationwide.

 

Barb

[Liz CA]

 

Thinking out loud here: SFO Bay Area is a large place. Have you checked rent pmts for some reasonably close rentals? I imagine Marin County would not be good, but how about the East Bay, Pinole, El Cerrito, Albany, El Sobrante, San Pablo, etc. Historically, those places are somewhat less in rent and housing prices than north of the Golden Gate. However, I have not lived there for a few years. Commuting all the way from places north of Marin County (where prices are lower) is a long way to SFO, not even so much in mileage as in time because of the traffic. But you could just check out Petaluma, Santa Rosa and Rohnert Park.

 

I would probably try to rent the AZ home for as much as possible and see if you can make up the difference. My reason would simply be to try to get back to the point where you can sell it for some profit at least or keep it anyway for the long term.

I also think if a person has a better feeling about one job vs another, it is important to recognize these little nudges. If your dh prefers the co. in SFO over the one in Chicago, I would try to do what I can to make that happen.

 

If the renting bit does not pan out and it sounds like you have quite a bit in savings, you could hand the keys back (short sale) and then just rent without having to supplement a mortgage in AZ and keep on saving for your future house. Also, you mentioned SFO would not be permanent, you would be moved back east at some point. Therefore I would not look to buy in the Bay Area (even though right now you may get great prices compared to a few years ago) unless you get something handed on a platter.

 

I know how these decisions can swirl around in one's head to the point where I would be up in the middle of the night, wandering through the house.

Take some time to think things over, talk things over, then wait a little and reconsider.

[Margo out of lurking]

Barb, I'm thinking out loud with you here.

 

IF he's renting a small place just for himself, he'll obviously be closer in, so the rent will increase--plus you'll have travel costs between CA and AZ, and the costs of maintaining two households. That doesn't seem to be any easier financially.

 

I (obviously have no life and) am looking at rentals on realtor.com. If you were to look at the East Bay, you could get a 3+ bedroom house for $2000-2500 in Fremont, Walnut Creek, Novato, and he could commute in on BART (depending on where his office is). I'm vaguely familiar with these areas, having lived in the Bay Area in the 70s/80s, and I mention these just because I remember them being nicer/safer than some other cities in the vicinity. Or could you go further out to, say, Pleasanton?

 

Have you looked further into the short sale option?

[Perry]

 

Is there anything else I should be thinking of? I'm trying to get creative.

Barb

Yes. I think he should keep looking, and try to find someplace with a lower cost of living. I hear Cedar Rapids is nice. :D

[Barb_]

I would probably try to rent the AZ home for as much as possible and see if you can make up the difference. My reason would simply be to try to get back to the point where you can sell it for some profit at least or keep it anyway for the long term.

 

I will be able to read your post in little more detail in a bit. I'm supposed to be working on dinner. This is the main problem up above. Rents are so depressed in our area that the rent we can expect to get is about $1000 less than our mortgage payment. Add in the cost of property management and that looks closer to an $1200 difference. Then add in the extra cost of a rental house over and above our current mortgage payment and we're looking at $1500-$2000 monthly difference in order to move the family. We will be waiting a long time for our house to appreciate in value. It will have to appreciate about $250,000 for us to break even. I don't know if that will happen before we pay it off.

 

Barb

[elegantlion]

My dh and I lived apart for 7 months during our last move. I had a great support system and family, he had no one. It was very traumatic for our relationship and him personally. We vowed never to do that again.

 

Right now my dh has been out of work for 7 weeks and we're now contemplating moving back to be near our family. As is is he's applied for jobs all over the country, but we're hoping to move back so we can be closer to family.

 

It bites living with such unknowns. :grouphug:

[Barb_]

Yes. I think he should keep looking, and try to find someplace with a lower cost of living. I hear Cedar Rapids is nice. :D

 

Yeah, no joke. I keep asking, "What about Charlotte?? Jacksonville?? Atlanta??" Someplace as hard hit as we've been would be a really easy move, but alas those places aren't hiring. He's been applying for jobs since March when the writing was on the wall and these two places are the only ones that have moved forward. Everything moves soooo slowlyyyyyy. He's one of the top candidates for two other positions, one in the Phoenix East Valley and one in Bucks co PA, but neither of those two places seem to be in much of a hurry to place someone. Just poking along.

 

Anyone looking for a hospital administrator in Cedar Rapids? :D

 

Barb

[Colleen]

I wouldn't go in for the scenarios you've presented. The notion of saving money by living apart is pie-in-the-sky, imo. The financial aspect of operating two households and traveling back and forth will be burdensome, and the emotional toll isn't worth it, either. I think you're too quickly writing off the possibility of settling, as a family, in the SF region. I also think you need to get more realistic about your financial position. You're upside down in your current home and will in all likelihood be facing increased costs at your next locale. Saving for a down payment on another home isn't the priority at this point.

 

 

Okay, I need to think aloud for a minute. Rich has been out of work since May 1. We are okay for the time being because of his six months severance package but of course the sooner he's back to work, the better. He is currently in the running neck and neck with only one other candidate for two very good jobs, one in San Francisco and one in the Chicago area, so the chances are he will have at least one offer by the end of the month. Unfortunately these are not cheap places to live. He's leaning more heavily toward the San Francisco job because that company jives more with his personal philosophy and he just flat out likes his potential boss.

 

Here's the problem. We moved to the Phoenix area in 2006. We paid $479K for our house and now it's worth about $220K. Seeing that on paper makes me all swooney. So we can either hand the keys over, short sale, or try to hang on and rent it out. We prefer the last scenario for the obvious reasons, but also because we're in our 40's and will have a slew of grandkids when we retire in about 20 years. Wouldn't it be great to own a 5br in AZ to host big Christmas celebrations?? Sigh, it's a lovely dream, but the difference between our mortgage payment and possible rent is about $800-$1000 each month. That really limits us as to what we can rent for our family in the new city. The Chicago suburbs will run us about $3000-3500K/month for a 4br with a basement near his job. All told, our expenses will go up about $1500 a month. Then if we have a renter gap, we have to absorb our mortgage for that period of time. We have savings to pull from, but I'd rather not as we're saving for a down payment for another house. We have about 10% but not the 20% that most people want nowdays.

 

San Francisco is completely out of the question. We can't move there. Even with an hour plus commute, the prices aren't reasonable. If he takes this job he'll have to go rent an apartment or a small house with the hour commute and we'll just go out there and stay with him for 3-4 weeks at a time a few times a year. He would fly back here twice a month for a long weekend.

 

So I started thinking, maybe we should do something similar with Chicago if he winds up there. What if he rents a small place for closer to $1500-$1700 a month and we stayed with him 6-7 months out of the year? We could go out there in May, escape the Phoenix summer, go through the fall and the holidays letting the kids get the snow out of their system and then return here for the Spring semester. We could even rent our furnished house to vacationers during the nice months and make a little money back. Mostly this takes away the fear of the rent gap.

 

Is there anything else I should be thinking of? I'm trying to get creative. We're stuck with some great choices requiring difficult decisions.

 

Barb

[6packofun]

It's someone in a situation like yours that our family needs. You could really bless a bigger family with a nice rental if you choose good tenants!!

 

Our landlady decided that she doesn't want to be a landlady anymore, just 2 weeks after having a realtor look over the house "for tax purposes" and ASSURING us that we would not have to move, and we now have *30 days to move out*. Do you know how difficult it is to find a decent rental for 8 people in that short amount of time??? She really screwed us over. She doesn't *have* to give us more than 30 days, but she could have been gracious since her situation isn't desperate. (She's currently spending thousands of dollars to fix major issues with the house that we would have LOVED for her to fix while we were here!!!)

 

We just can't buy quite yet. I wish I could rent your house! LOL

[JFSinIL]

"The Chicago suburbs will run us about $3000-3500K/month for a 4br with a basement near his job."

 

!!!!! So do not be so near the job. I am in a 5-bedroom, with basement, out in Elgin - mortgage with insurance is 1,428 a month. The key is to find a suburb near a Metra train line. If the job is in the city of Chicago or along a train line (Schamburg, etc.) you can get a LOT of house in the suburbs. unless, of course, you are aiming for Oak Park/River Forest/Evanston etc. And are you looking for newer houses only, or older homes?

 

Just post here any areas you are looking at, and we Chicago-area folks can clue you in on the pros and cons of each.

Edited July 5, 2010 by JFSinIL

[missmoe]

Rethink what kind of house you can end renting. My dh and I lived apart for 7 months while we waited for our house to sell. Living apart was not cheap. My dh's job paid for him to come home every three weeks for 10 days. Even with that advantage our family always seemed to be in upheaval. My oldest son exspecially didn't do well with his dad gone. We decided to move to be with my dh without the house selling. We are living in a small three bedroom townhouse. We moved out of a three story, five-bedroom home (with a full basement). It has been an adjustment Our home has still not sold. We do now have someone renting it. The rent covers our mortage, but not what the fair market value of house. Our kids no longer have their own bedrooms. I don't have a formal dinning room or nice kitchen. We don't have a yard. We gave up a lot materially, but we are all so glad we did it. My kids are so much happier with all of us together. My husband is so much happier with all of us together. I am happier with a partner here to help me on a daily basis and with a happy family.

 

Is a four-bedroom house your only option? Could you live in a smaller home and still be happy?

 

I've lived in the Bay Area before and I second all the small towns mentioned. We lived in Rodeo. A little town that was about an hour away from the city. Make sure you are looking at Bart and the bus when looking at commuting. Driving into SF everyday is just not a pleasant experience.

 

Good luck in your decision.

[ChrisB]

Ever consider moving maybe to a place like...say...South Dakota? :D We have two health systems here...cost of living is great... I found a listing for a hospital administrator... You could go south for a few winter months. PM if you're interested in the link.

[StephanieZ]

You are in a tough spot! :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Chicago probably makes more sense if the salary would be similar and there is such a huge cost of living gap. Are you sure more affordable housing isn't available in either location, especially if you allow for a longer commute, particularly in Chicago?

 

I would try to find a place, more likely Chicago, where you could find a doable home for all of you. Go smaller. . . Kids can bunk up. . . Declutter. . . Etc.

 

I wouldn't split up the family. Nope. No way.

 

If you can get away with a short sale and the bank will let you off the hook for the remainder, I would do that. (Talk to your atty and/or CPA to be sure you understand all the ramifications.) If you don't have major assets and can qualify for bankruptcy, I'd do a bankruptcy NOW while dh has a relatively low income b/c of the layoff if that is what you have to do to get out from under the mortgage. If there is a way to get out of it w/o the bankruptcy, then I'd do that. . . Honestly, there is no way I'd want to hold on to such a loss. I'd cut it now if at all possible. I think you are more likely to be able to convince the bank to let you off the hook now with the current economy/mortgage crisis than later when things might be different politically. I have never had to face that. . . It must be awful. . . If it were me, I'd so want to be free of it and just get rid of it. . .

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

How do military families handle it?

 

Barb

 

I think part of what makes it sufferable in the military is the sense that it is part of the common community experience. Here, living on base, it isn't a question of if your dh will be deployed, but when. Is he gone now or about to leave? If it isn't part of the current job, then you probably have experience from the last one and will have it again soon.

 

And yet it is still very hard and there are in fact lots of divorces in the military.

 

But it is harder when you are sort of the odd man out. Either because your home community doesn't understand why you don't have a husband/dad around or because the dh is the only one at work who doesn't have their family around. Not impossible, both my parents and dh's parents lived a couple hours apart for several years when that is what the job required.

 

I would look into things like renting a room rather than an apartment. I would also figure in the cost of travel when you compare situations. The cost of airfare could easily make the SF scenario more expensive to live apart than together.

[FaithManor]

Please be careful about declaring bankruptcy. Most hospital administrator jobs and well, other positions which require one to manage a large budget, usually have check credit reports run. It would not look good! Even my dad will not hire anyone with a bankruptcy on their record for any office position in which they will be privy to financial accounts or have any say in spending and budgeting. That could really come back to hurt him in the job hunt!

 

 

I do think that Chicago could be made workable. The mid-west is a much lower cost of living. The metra is very reliable and if you find a rental close to a station, you could even manage with one car which would greatly reduce your insurance and maintenance cost.

 

I also vote for keeping the family together if possible. Dh and I went through a very dark period when he traveled three weeks out of every month. I was having a serious health problem and he was never around. I almost ended up moving home to live with my parents and due to his travel schedule...it probably would have been the end of us because he literally could not have come to visit dd and I more than once per year because my parents lived in an area of the country he never traveled to. Additionally, he was not given anything but the actual day of the federal holiday, five vacation days, and three sick days....that's quite often the way it is with a new job. I'm pretty certain that though neither one of us would have been willing to ask for a divorce, we would have lead completely separate lives with little to no relationship and dd never knowing her dad very well. And we certainly wouldn't have had our three musketeers!

 

By the way, he quit....it was just so bad for us that it wasn't worth continuing. Thankfully, he was able to get a position in my brother's company and funny thing, we ended up moving near my parents anyway.

 

Keep the family together.

Faith

[Lisa in Jax]

Have you contacted the bank to see if they will allow you to switch to an interest-only loan? Most banks will be hesitant to modify your loan if you're still paying the payments, but it's worth a try. If you can make a case that getting an interest payment (allowing you to keep the house) is better than a situation where you have to do a short sale, they *might* help. Then, if you rent the house, the gap will be smaller.

 

HIH,

 

Lisa

[Barb_]

Have you contacted the bank to see if they will allow you to switch to an interest-only loan? Most banks will be hesitant to modify your loan if you're still paying the payments, but it's worth a try. If you can make a case that getting an interest payment (allowing you to keep the house) is better than a situation where you have to do a short sale, they *might* help. Then, if you rent the house, the gap will be smaller.

 

HIH,

 

Lisa

 

Lisa, thanks for this idea. Because of your post, we called Wells Fargo and asked about a loan mod along these lines at least in the short term, and they are going to work with us to make the scenario more affordable. So thank you. Also agreeing with FaithManor that bankruptcy is not an option...for reasons she enumerated and for personal conviction as well. This isn't yet an emergency situatio.

 

I was going to post *UPDATED* at the top, but I suppose it's been too long and it won't let me. Rich took the San Francisco job the day before yesterday. He'll be working for Kaiser, so we're excited. It's such a well respected company in the industry and we can already see why there is very little turnover. It's hard to communicate how bad things have been for him professionally the past 7-8 years working for for-profit companies. The culture is so agressive, so mean. Anyway, I think everyone was pretty unanimous that we shouldn't try to straddle two states, but...um....we're going to try it anyway. At least for a year.

 

Rich has a high pressure, high stress job. He brings his work home, literally and figuratively. But he'll be coming home 1-2X a month for a 4 day weekend and when he's here, he will actually be HERE. No computer and no phone to distract him. No administrative call. No hospital around the corner to pop in on. When he's here, he can focus on the kids and myself just like he's on vacation. The rest of the time, he can scratch his workaholic itch, use the gym to his heart's content, play intramural sports, and jam on his guitar as loudly as he wants with no one shushing him because the kids are sleeping. He'll rent a 2br apt for around 2K, of which we will be able to cover a large portion by dropping cable, preschool for the boy, and some other non-essentials.

 

Here's the thing. Our kids have lived in 6 states in the past 12 years. I just don't want to jerk up their roots again. I love this house. I have friends in my neighborhood for the first time. If I think about living between states again for 2-3 years or think about having to jerk up the kids by the short hairs and drop them down in an 1800 sqft house...well the first option just seems so much more pleasant. Rich and I have been together 20 years. We can handle it. We've done the temporary separation thing and while it wasn't ideal, there were pros to the situation that offset the cons. And hey...we have a paid-for place to stay for 2 weeks or so 4 times a year right in the heart of San Francisco. It's really an adventure. We aren't discounting the possibly of selling short at some point in the future, but we want to try all other avenues first. Even in my homeschooling project, I tend to reevealuate each year to be sure curriculum, extracurriculars, even homeschooing, is still working for each individual. I don't expect this is the last time we'll revisit this question.

 

So the decision is made. We're excited right now so please act happy for us :) I promise not to whine if things get hairy.

 

Barb

[Mrs Mungo]

So the decision is made. We're excited right now so please act happy for us :) I promise not to whine if things get hairy.

 

 

Barb, I hope everything works out for you guys, but please don't hesitate to whine if/when the going gets tough. :grouphug:

[Liz CA]

Congrats on the job! You can always try it and see if it works or not.

Nothing in this situation is permanent or unchangeable.

 

Best Wishes!

[plain jane]

Barb, I hope everything works out for you guys, but please don't hesitate to whine if/when the going gets tough. :grouphug:

 

:iagree: I didn't catch this thread last time around but I read through it now. Wishing you and your family all the best. :grouphug:

 

Congrats on the new job. That's great news!