Disappointed with Horizons Math K...

[Sahamamama]

:glare: It looked nice. It seemed to be working. It was fine for simple concepts such as "number before" and "number after" and "circle the yellow triangle."

 

It was great up to Lesson 60 or so... then it bombed on teaching place value and addition with carrying. INSTEAD, the lessons give the student a number line, like this:

 

30---31---32---33---34---35---36---37---38---39---40

 

And addition problems like this:

 

37

+ 2

 

39

+ 2

 

The student is only taught to "count on," and not to add columns. Is this a problem? My student is writing answers from left to right, as in "3, then 9," and NOT lining them up with the ones column, the tens column. I see trouble down the road.

 

I admit, I'm not a mathy person, but this is basic arithmetic! I can remember learning to add and carry -- this curriculum seems to omit these crucial (IMO) steps. What about place value? What about adding columns from right to left, carrying the "tens," and bringing down the numbers into the appropriate columns?

 

Any suggestions? I'm frustrated with Horizons, not because it isn't "pretty." It is a nicely laid-out, colorful workbook approach, but I don't think it's going to teach good habits, basic facts, and number sense.

 

For example, I was trying to get S to "add the ones" and bring the answer down, then she added 9 + 2 and put 11 as the answer (to 39 + 2). I asked her, "Can the answer to 39 + any number be LESS than 39 itself?" :001_huh:

 

But Horizons isn't teaching her what to DO with the tens, ones, and so on -- what to DO with the answer beyond 9. :bigear: I think that's a serious flaw. Do you?

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I haven't any idea just wondering .. is carrying over really a kindergarten level math concept?

[abrightmom]

:glare: It looked nice. It seemed to be working. It was fine for simple concepts such as "number before" and "number after" and "circle the yellow triangle."

 

It was great up to Lesson 60 or so... then it bombed on teaching place value and addition with carrying. INSTEAD, the lessons give the student a number line, like this:

 

30---31---32---33---34---35---36---37---38---39---40

 

And addition problems like this:

 

37

+ 2

 

39

+ 2

 

The student is only taught to "count on," and not to add columns. Is this a problem? My student is writing answers from left to right, as in "3, then 9," and NOT lining them up with the ones column, the tens column. I see trouble down the road.

 

I admit, I'm not a mathy person, but this is basic arithmetic! I can remember learning to add and carry -- this curriculum seems to omit these crucial (IMO) steps. What about place value? What about adding columns from right to left, carrying the "tens," and bringing down the numbers into the appropriate columns?

 

Any suggestions? I'm frustrated with Horizons, not because it isn't "pretty." It is a nicely laid-out, colorful workbook approach, but I don't think it's going to teach good habits, basic facts, and number sense.

 

For example, I was trying to get S to "add the ones" and bring the answer down, then she added 9 + 2 and put 11 as the answer (to 39 + 2). I asked her, "Can the answer to 39 + any number be LESS than 39 itself?" :001_huh:

 

But Horizons isn't teaching her what to DO with the tens, ones, and so on -- what to DO with the answer beyond 9. :bigear: I think that's a serious flaw. Do you?

 

I think that you are "putting the cart before the horse" and asking your DC to understand a concept she isn't ready for. She will learn to do what you're wanting her to . . . I linked the scope & sequences for Horizons K and 1st. Carrying is taught in first grade with Horizons. Place value (beyond introducing it), adding columns, and carrying are not typical Kindergarten math skills! Let the program do its work and follow the progression. She will be taught to do those things you are looking for . . . it's just not time yet!!! I suggest you break out the Base 10 blocks and use those to introduce and work with place value. Take your time with it . . . it's a BIG concept to wrap a little mind around.

 

The number line helps her to "see" what she is doing when she adds 2 to 37. Basically she is counting up and getting more than she started with. I'm not sure that some kids even realize what they're doing when they add . . . it takes time and concrete experiences to "see" it. The number line is one tool that helps your DC to "see". :D You could also demonstrate this with your place value materials if she is ready for that. I highly recommend it.

 

 

http://www.sonlight.com/images/samples/horizons-math/k/pdf/k-scopeandsequence.pdf

 

http://www.sonlight.com/images/samples/horizons-math/1/pdf/1-scopeandsequence.pdf

[FO4UR]

I used Horizon's K through about the same lesson. LOL

 

I like teaching the concept of regrouping before working with larger numbers. Singapore, MEP, Miquon all teach the child to add 9+2 before adding 39+2. It makes sense to me to gain ease in regrouping single digit numbers first. It is a big concept, but easily grasped with smaller numbers...esp using base ten blocks or Cuisenaire Rods or an abacus.

[Mandy in TN]

Horizons is showing her that addition is just counting.

 

This is typical progression where adding 1-4 to another number is shown as a simple progression up the number line. So, adding 1 to any number just means the next number and adding 2 means going up two on the number line. Children are able to see this and understand how to add 2 and 99. This visual step in understanding addition is taught horizontally. Typically, this comes long before vertical addition with carrying which is much more abstract.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Kipling]

I agree with the other comments that regrouping is an advanced concept for a kindergartner, however, I was not impressed with Horizons math. I used Horizons math in K because it seemed comprehensive and it is a very attractive workbook. My daughter enjoyed all the lessons, but I didn't feel she really "got" the math concepts.

For 1st grade, I have used Math-U-See Alpha, and I have noticed a BIG improvement. Math is now very automatic for her. She really knows her math facts (without having been made to memorize them). She really likes the video series and the math blocks, and my 4 year old son has picked up so much that I will be starting him on Alpha in the fall

If you look at the scope and sequence, there is a lot of overlap between MUS Alpha and Horizons K, but I went ahead and did Alpha even though it felt like we were going to be repeating ourselves. I'm very glad I did. It was just the foundation and thoroughness I was looking for. It has made a world of difference having her see and understand what the numbers mean and how they work together. MUS puts a huge emphasis on place value. Regrouping is a concept that is introduced in Beta, and my daughter was more than ready for it, and is flying through the Beta lessons. (We are working on Beta through the summer and planning to start Gamma in the middle of second grade).

That's been our experience. Hope it helps.

[8filltheheart]

Agreeing with the comments that she isn't supposed to understand carrying. It is an appropriate skill to count on the number line and understand the relationships between numbers, movement along the number line, and addition.

 

It will not cause a problem later on with independent addition with carrying. (at least it never has with my kids and I have been through it numerous times.)

[Sahamamama]

I haven't any idea just wondering .. is carrying over really a kindergarten level math concept?

 

That's also what I was thinking... but then Horizons has them "adding" single-digit numbers to double-digit numbers (up to 99). I don't see the point? I also think it is establishing a habit in my student, instead of adding columns from right to left (i.e., ones, tens, hundreds, etc.), she is using the number line at the top, counting on, and writing the whole number as the answer -- but not with any concept of lining up the digits to the ones or tens columns. IDK, it seems like it's going to be problematic at some point? :confused:

[Sahamamama]

I think that you are "putting the cart before the horse" and asking your DC to understand a concept she isn't ready for. She will learn to do what you're wanting her to . . . I linked the scope & sequences for Horizons K and 1st. Carrying is taught in first grade with Horizons. Place value (beyond introducing it), adding columns, and carrying are not typical Kindergarten math skills! Let the program do its work and follow the progression. She will be taught to do those things you are looking for . . . it's just not time yet!!! I suggest you break out the Base 10 blocks and use those to introduce and work with place value. Take your time with it . . . it's a BIG concept to wrap a little mind around.

 

The number line helps her to "see" what she is doing when she adds 2 to 37. Basically she is counting up and getting more than she started with. I'm not sure that some kids even realize what they're doing when they add . . . it takes time and concrete experiences to "see" it. The number line is one tool that helps your DC to "see". :D You could also demonstrate this with your place value materials if she is ready for that. I highly recommend it.

 

 

http://www.sonlight.com/images/samples/horizons-math/k/pdf/k-scopeandsequence.pdf

 

http://www.sonlight.com/images/samples/horizons-math/1/pdf/1-scopeandsequence.pdf

 

In some ways, I agree that "place value" and "carrying" are not K concepts, but then why assign "addition problems" that involve those procedures? It doesn't make sense to me? I suppose I'm still thinking that it would be MORE productive for us (this year) to work on basic facts (7 + 2 = 9) and so on. I might just put the Horizons K on the side for a while and play with math fact families:

 

2 + 7 = 9

7 + 2 = 9

9 - 2 = 7

9 - 7 = 2

 

I don't think she "sees" any of this yet. Horizons doesn't bring out these relationships AT ALL (IMO). That's my point, really, why is it "jumping" to 37 + 2 = 39 when the student hasn't MASTERED 7 + 2 = 9? That doesn't seem like a K-level leap to me. :bigear:

[twoxcell]

We use Horizons and they introduce regrouping near the end of first grade. Ds had a bit of a tough time, so I just went over place value again myself using base ten blocks. Horizons does cover place value quite a bit in year 1. They do use the number line in K, but it is fazed out for adding in 1st. I tended to cove the number line with my ds near the end of K anyways. Also the relationship between addition facts and subtraction is covered in year 1.

[Sahamamama]

I agree with the other comments that regrouping is an advanced concept for a kindergartner, however, I was not impressed with Horizons math. I used Horizons math in K because it seemed comprehensive and it is a very attractive workbook. My daughter enjoyed all the lessons, but I didn't feel she really "got" the math concepts.

 

 

Aaaah, Grasshopper, you understand. :D Yes, THAT is what it feels like, a nice, pretty-pages-program, but just that. Pages that create the feeling of "doing arithmetic," but it's just a product to fill a binder, not turning on any little light bulbs. And, yes, I know you've got to give her time. That's not the issue with this kid, I really think the program is lacking something.

 

Thanks, Kristen, for the rec for MUS Alpha. I'm going to go check it out! :D

[Sahamamama]

I used Horizon's K through about the same lesson. LOL

 

I like teaching the concept of regrouping before working with larger numbers. Singapore, MEP, Miquon all teach the child to add 9+2 before adding 39+2. It makes sense to me to gain ease in regrouping single digit numbers first. It is a big concept, but easily grasped with smaller numbers...esp using base ten blocks or Cuisenaire Rods or an abacus.

 

Do you mind if I ask, "What did you use when you ditched the Horizons?" :bigear:

[TracyP]

This makes sense in my head but feels hard to put into words but I will try.:tongue_smilie:

You are dealing with two different skills here. I've never used Horizons but the problem you talk about is just number sense. They could use 9+2 or 89+2. I would never carry to figure out either of those problems. I just "know" thanks to my sense of numbers that 91 is two more than 89. I think you may make it harder than it has to be by trying to introduce carrying to a Ker.

 

I don't think it's a problem at all. Whether Horizons is the "right" program for you and dd - maybe not.

[blessedmom3]

That's why I gave up with Horizons !

 

After Horizons K bgook 1 , CLE 100 works great .

But even with CLE , I use base ten blocks & abacus to illustrate place value and other math concepts .

I don't think a child has a good grasp of math without a place value set ( which you can make yourself from cardboard if too expensive to buy nice ones ).

[TracyP]

Aaaah, Grasshopper, you understand. :D Yes, THAT is what it feels like, a nice, pretty-pages-program, but just that. Pages that create the feeling of "doing arithmetic," but it's just a product to fill a binder, not turning on any little light bulbs. And, yes, I know you've got to give her time. That's not the issue with this kid, I really think the program is lacking something.

 

Thanks, Kristen, for the rec for MUS Alpha. I'm going to go check it out! :D

 

You posted twice while I was posting. I must be really slow.:tongue_smilie:

 

I have been very happy with Math Mammoth for "light bulb moments" and making connections. My dd needs spiral and MM is mastery but I feel about CLE like you do about Horizons. It is a good program but not giving her what I want out of a math program. So I continue CLE along with MM. I will probably go completely MM for my ds.

[Caraway]

I agree with the other comments that regrouping is an advanced concept for a kindergartner, however, I was not impressed with Horizons math. I used Horizons math in K because it seemed comprehensive and it is a very attractive workbook. My daughter enjoyed all the lessons, but I didn't feel she really "got" the math concepts.

For 1st grade, I have used Math-U-See Alpha, and I have noticed a BIG improvement. Math is now very automatic for her. She really knows her math facts (without having been made to memorize them). She really likes the video series and the math blocks, and my 4 year old son has picked up so much that I will be starting him on Alpha in the fall

If you look at the scope and sequence, there is a lot of overlap between MUS Alpha and Horizons K, but I went ahead and did Alpha even though it felt like we were going to be repeating ourselves. I'm very glad I did. It was just the foundation and thoroughness I was looking for. It has made a world of difference having her see and understand what the numbers mean and how they work together. MUS puts a huge emphasis on place value. Regrouping is a concept that is introduced in Beta, and my daughter was more than ready for it, and is flying through the Beta lessons. (We are working on Beta through the summer and planning to start Gamma in the middle of second grade).

That's been our experience. Hope it helps.

 

:iagree:

[Rivka]

I might be offbase - I don't know Horizons at all - but I think that being able to do 39+2 by "counting on" or using a number line is a valuable skill that is separate from, and comes before, column addition with carrying.

 

I have a K'er too, and we do a lot of mental math of this type: 44+2, 100+1, 53+3. I really want her to grasp the concept of how addition works, and that it works the same way when large numbers are involved as it does when you can reckon up the sum with Cheerios.

 

I don't want to introduce the algorithm of right-to-left column addition with carrying until I'm sure she understands the underlying concepts - at which point she can benefit from using the algorithm which makes things easier and efficient. I've seen too many kids approach questions like

 

39

+46

 

as if they're two separate math problems, 9+6 and 3+4, which just happen to be written side by side. They know they're supposed to go from right to left and add, but they don't really have a firm enough grip on place value to understand how the numbers truly fit together.

 

Also - and this may be a tangent - is left-to-right addition really a bad habit? I use right-to-left on paper, but I always use left-to-right for mental math. I'm much less likely to make a mistake that way.

[Dinsfamily]

That's also what I was thinking... but then Horizons has them "adding" single-digit numbers to double-digit numbers (up to 99). I don't see the point? I also think it is establishing a habit in my student, instead of adding columns from right to left (i.e., ones, tens, hundreds, etc.), she is using the number line at the top, counting on, and writing the whole number as the answer -- but not with any concept of lining up the digits to the ones or tens columns. IDK, it seems like it's going to be problematic at some point? :confused:

 

I don't think that Horizons does a great job teaching conceptual math, but Singapore doesn't teach the way you're describing either (using Singapore as an example because most would agree that it is very strong in teaching conceptual math). Singapore PM doesn't teach lining up columns until 2A. Until then, they learn to do it by adding the tens first and then the ones mentally.

 

Singapore also teaches to count up or count down when adding small numbers to big ones. It's quicker than writing the problem in a column format.

[abbeyej]

I'll add that when the time comes, Horizons actually does a great job of teaching addition with regrouping using pictures of base-ten blocks. (It's good, though not vital, to have a set of these to work with "in real life" as well.) They aren't *teaching* the concept of regrouping yet. But they *will*, and there is actually a fair amount of emphasis place value / base ten in the first grade book at least. (I can't remember if they do it some in the K book as well or not.)

[Sahamamama]

Also - and this may be a tangent - is left-to-right addition really a bad habit? I use right-to-left on paper, but I always use left-to-right for mental math. I'm much less likely to make a mistake that way.

 

No, probably not a bad habit for someone who already understands place value. But I've seen this develop into a habit with kids who don't understand (later, when the problems involve larger numbers) WHY they must line up the answers into the ones, tens, hundreds columns. They have gotten into the habit of writing the answer just "under the line," but without lining up the numbers into the correct columns. Again, I don't know why I feel this is problematic (for a K'er, especially), except that it seems to be developing something that I'll have to CORRECT later on. I'd rather not have her practice something over and over and over again -- that I will then have to correct over and over and over again in 2nd grade.

 

Make sense?

[abrightmom]

:001_smile::001_smile: So many excellent points made . . .

 

Another "thing" to keep in mind with MUS . . . MUS Alpha is a "mastery of addition year". There is a different focus when you're using a program that is mastery based -- which the OP may prefer!! Horizons is a spiral format and that just looks/feels different. Alpha in MUS is also intended for first grade while Horizons K is K . . . (BTW, we used/use Horizons K and it's been a good fit for my kids up until now for that first year of math exposure).

 

The hands on aspect of MUS works well for many kids and the light bulb turns on. Some kids burn out on the same concepts all.year.long. while others thrive with mastery and find the spiral approach too scattered. :lol:

 

Often a "program" gets the credit or the blame when it's a matter of a child's readiness to understand the concepts presented. This can play out with "reading" and "phonics" programs as well!! Of course this is certainly not always the case and it's not always one or the other. It could be an issue of right program, wrong time or right program, right time, or just plain wrong program for this particular child (i.e. mastery vs. spiral for many kiddos) or wrong time (too early perhaps). Sometimes the teacher is at fault :D (ask me how I know!! LOL!!)

 

I love these discussions!! Great food for thought!! :D

Edited June 8, 2010 by abrightmom
Fixin' my typos

[LuvToRead]

We used Horizons, and DD8 didn't have a problem learning to regroup. I think the number line just teaches the basic concept that adding is the same as counting on. Horizons lays that initial foundation first.

[abrightmom]

We used Horizons, and DD8 didn't have a problem learning to regroup. I think the number line just teaches the basic concept that adding is the same as counting on. Horizons lays that initial foundation first.

Now why couldn't I have said that so succinctly??!! Well done!! :001_smile:

[TracyP]

We used Horizons, and DD8 didn't have a problem learning to regroup. I think the number line just teaches the basic concept that adding is the same as counting on. Horizons lays that initial foundation first.

 

Now why couldn't I have said that so succinctly??!! Well done!! :001_smile:

 

Exactly what I was thinking!:D

[Tess in the Burbs]

we switched from MUS to Horizons and I can tell you I wasn't thrilled the first year. Dd was doing K and Ds was doing 1st. He is finishing up 3rd grade this year and I can say that I get the program more now than before. I also think the teacher manual lacks a lot. You have to teach more than it offers. We have tons of manipulatives and I often show examples of things first. My son wants nothing to do with them, lol. He prefers a simple show me and let me go attitude. However, after using it for a few years I can appreciate it's spiral approach and all my earlier frustrations were b/c I simply hadn't seen or used the upper levels. I am glad we didn't jump ship with it. I can also see that switching out of MUS was the right thing for our kids.

 

There are many days I wonder what the heck the math program is doing but I always tell my kids, let's be patient and try to do what it is teaching us today and sure enough usually in a week or two something is presented and the previous weird lesson makes more sense. It's not a perfect program but I am happy with it now that we have used it a few years. We plan to finish it out and my kids have a well rounded knowledge of math and can usually handle the grandparents quizzing. ;-)

[hsmom]

That is one of the reasons we ditched it. We got part of the way through book 2 and had enough.

 

I did notice that my son would use the number lines to get the answers instead of trying to figure out the problem itself. It was just easier to jump 2 spaces instead of count it like 9, 10, 11. Then the fact that it jumped too fast. It seemed as if we were doing 9+2 one day and then 39+5 the next. Too much too fast.

 

Now we moved on to McRuffy grade 1 and have had no problems at all and love the pace it goes at.

[cocoabean]

Quote:

" "I think that you are "putting the cart before the horse" and asking your DC to understand a concept she isn't ready for. She will learn to do what you're wanting her to . . . I linked the scope & sequences for Horizons K and 1st. Carrying is taught in first grade with Horizons. Place value (beyond introducing it), adding columns, and carrying are not typical Kindergarten math skills! Let the program do its work and follow the progression. She will be taught to do those things you are looking for . . . it's just not time yet!!!" "

 

I have to agree with this. Horizons is teaching your dd to "count up" on a number line. It is not cause for alarm that they are teaching addition in this manner at that age. As some of the others have said, Horizons grade one will address columnar addition with regrouping.

 

Horizons has a very solid program, it just takes time to build the concepts across the grade levels as children mature. :-)

 

HTH!

Edited June 8, 2010 by cocoabean

[Haiku]

You are dealing with two different skills here. I've never used Horizons but the problem you talk about is just number sense. They could use 9+2 or 89+2. I would never carry to figure out either of those problems. I just "know" thanks to my sense of numbers that 91 is two more than 89. I think you may make it harder than it has to be by trying to introduce carrying to a Ker.

 

 

I agree. We use RightStart Math and the kids don't learn the paper-and-pencil algorithm until the end of B or the beginning of C (forget which). I think that for a K-er, knowing that 9 + 2 means "2 more than 9" is far more important than knowing that it means 1 ten and 1 one.

 

Tara

[8filltheheart]

we switched from MUS to Horizons and I can tell you I wasn't thrilled the first year. Dd was doing K and Ds was doing 1st. He is finishing up 3rd grade this year and I can say that I get the program more now than before. I also think the teacher manual lacks a lot. You have to teach more than it offers. We have tons of manipulatives and I often show examples of things first. My son wants nothing to do with them, lol. He prefers a simple show me and let me go attitude. However, after using it for a few years I can appreciate it's spiral approach and all my earlier frustrations were b/c I simply hadn't seen or used the upper levels. I am glad we didn't jump ship with it. I can also see that switching out of MUS was the right thing for our kids.

 

There are many days I wonder what the heck the math program is doing but I always tell my kids, let's be patient and try to do what it is teaching us today and sure enough usually in a week or two something is presented and the previous weird lesson makes more sense. It's not a perfect program but I am happy with it now that we have used it a few years. We plan to finish it out and my kids have a well rounded knowledge of math and can usually handle the grandparents quizzing. ;-)

 

Tess, your post sums up what I try to explain to others that have not used Horizons all the way through. It is much easier to look at a mastery program and go, ok, I see where this is going and how it basically ends. It isn't that simple with a spiral program. It takes seeing the concepts in their entirety to see the logical sequencing of the steps.

 

I have been completely satisfied with Horizons and how everything works together. It really is my all time favorite elementary math program. However, if a parent wants a mastery approach, Horizons is definitely not for them.

[Sahamamama]

Tess, your post sums up what I try to explain to others that have not used Horizons all the way through. It is much easier to look at a mastery program and go, ok, I see where this is going and how it basically ends. It isn't that simple with a spiral program. It takes seeing the concepts in their entirety to see the logical sequencing of the steps.

 

I have been completely satisfied with Horizons and how everything works together. It really is my all time favorite elementary math program. However, if a parent wants a mastery approach, Horizons is definitely not for them.

 

Thanks, everyone, for your input into my questions/frustrations. :001_smile: I think my daughter's frustration today was not that Horizons doesn't teach place value in K or carrying in K... but that she has not gotten her basic facts down "cold," so she was counting on (on the number line, like she was supposed to do). Then I jumped in there, all concerned about the counting on, and covered up the number line. :glare: She couldn't begin to do the simplest addition (41 + 3) without the number line. So I wondered, What is this really teaching her? I suppose she can NOT see that 1 + 3 = 4 (bring down the 4 into the ones column), and the 4 in the tens column is actually 40 (bring down another 4 into the tens column). How would she know this?

 

If counting on is the skill that is normal/appropriate for K, then we'll stick with Horizons and follow through with the approach. Like I said, I don't really know about the ins and outs of teaching basic math. I do need to study this, when the budget allows. Obviously, I need it. :tongue_smilie:

 

It is NOT that I was thinking, "Horizons moves too slowly." No, rather, it seems to be moving too fast (for my K'er, at least). Or maybe it's me? :confused: What I mean is, I wonder why they move away from lower numbers so quickly, before the child automatically knows the basic facts and (to some extent) understands the relationships between them. For example, she automatically knows that 4 + 2 = 6. She knows this, she doesn't count up with it. But she freezes when she sees 2 + 4 = ___.

 

I did think that one possibility of why Horizons moves into 39 + 2, 43 + 5 and so on (instead of sticking with mastery of 9 + 2 and 3 + 5) is that they use these addition problems (with a number line) to teach addition as counting on AND to introduce higher and higher numbers to the student. I will say, she LOVES the idea of working with higher numbers.

 

What should I do about the fact that she doesn't see that if 5 + 2 = 7, then 2 + 5 = 7 (she still counts up). Cuisenaire rods? We've done these, lots of times (often for play, too). It doesn't click, really. She LOVES math fact drill, though. She says she LOVES doing math, too. She LOVES listening to math fact songs, working with manipulatives, completing her Horizons pages. She is eager and willing, but has a clueless mother. Alas, poor child, this is why I called on the help of the hive.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Sahamamama

[Snowfall]

What should I do about the fact that she doesn't see that if 5 + 2 = 7, then 2 + 5 = 7 (she still counts up).

 

I think it must be common for kids to have an easier time remembering facts with the smaller number last, as in 5+2 vs. 2+5, because my K dd does the same thing. I think it's just because it sounds a lot easier to add a smaller number to the first. I don't know what to do about it, though. I explained to my DD that it doesn't matter which # comes first...about a million times - w/words, the abacus, c rods, number strips, and unifix cubes. lol She finally got it, so now if she gets confused, I remind her and she remembers. I think they just have to make whatever cognitive leap allows them to finally get it.

[Dinsfamily]

It is NOT that I was thinking, "Horizons moves too slowly." No, rather, it seems to be moving too fast (for my K'er, at least). Or maybe it's me? :confused: What I mean is, I wonder why they move away from lower numbers so quickly, before the child automatically knows the basic facts and (to some extent) understands the relationships between them. For example, she automatically knows that 4 + 2 = 6. She knows this, she doesn't count up with it. But she freezes when she sees 2 + 4 = ___.

 

I did think that one possibility of why Horizons moves into 39 + 2, 43 + 5 and so on (instead of sticking with mastery of 9 + 2 and 3 + 5) is that they use these addition problems (with a number line) to teach addition as counting on AND to introduce higher and higher numbers to the student. I will say, she LOVES the idea of working with higher numbers.

 

What should I do about the fact that she doesn't see that if 5 + 2 = 7, then 2 + 5 = 7 (she still counts up). Cuisenaire rods? We've done these, lots of times (often for play, too). It doesn't click, really. She LOVES math fact drill, though. She says she LOVES doing math, too. She LOVES listening to math fact songs, working with manipulatives, completing her Horizons pages. She is eager and willing, but has a clueless mother. Alas, poor child, this is why I called on the help of the hive.

 

I do hear that Horizons K moves fast for a lot of dc so maybe that is what's going on. For that reason, I'm anticipating taking some breaks with my next ds coming up when we start it next year. I'll fill in those breaks with Miquon. I didn't to take breaks with my oldest ds, but I placed him too low in Horizons when we started. Miquon (which uses Cuisenaire rods) is really good showing those concepts concretely.

[Paige]

For what it's worth, my kids have been to public school kindergarten and they teach simple addition like that there too. The public school didn't do vertical math with carrying until 1st and 2nd grade. I also have Shiller Math that we used with my son for PreK and it teaches addition like that first too. Shiller went on and did vertical addition with base 10 blocks too fairly shortly after the number line addition/subtraction (still in PreK4), but I do think it is normal for kids to learn the Horizons way before moving on to what you were expecting.

[abrightmom]

Mastery of math facts is not necessary in K . . . in fact, here is what I read in my Math Mammoth First Grade introduction:

 

"At the latest, your child should memorize addition facts

during second grade, as recommended by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM)."

 

:thumbup1: Maybe that will lend some perspective . . .

[MaMa2005]

As my DS is very mathy, we are using Horizons and love it. He is very good in math and went extremely fast this year. We started with Horizons K and are finishing Horizons Grade 3 within the next couple of weeks.

 

The fact that I have used 4 years of Horizons in one year really showed me that the books do know what they are teaching even if at the time you are teaching something, it doesn't make sense. I have rarely had to go back and review a concept with DS.

 

Though many don't like Horizons, it does the job quite well (and I am speaking as a retired teacher.)

[cocoabean]

Thanks, everyone, for your input into my questions/frustrations. :001_smile: I think my daughter's frustration today was not that Horizons doesn't teach place value in K or carrying in K... but that she has not gotten her basic facts down "cold," so she was counting on (on the number line, like she was supposed to do). Then I jumped in there, all concerned about the counting on, and covered up the number line. :glare: She couldn't begin to do the simplest addition (41 + 3) without the number line. So I wondered, What is this really teaching her? I suppose she can NOT see that 1 + 3 = 4 (bring down the 4 into the ones column), and the 4 in the tens column is actually 40 (bring down another 4 into the tens column). How would she know this?

 

If counting on is the skill that is normal/appropriate for K, then we'll stick with Horizons and follow through with the approach. Like I said, I don't really know about the ins and outs of teaching basic math. I do need to study this, when the budget allows. Obviously, I need it. :tongue_smilie:

 

It is NOT that I was thinking, "Horizons moves too slowly." No, rather, it seems to be moving too fast (for my K'er, at least). Or maybe it's me? :confused: What I mean is, I wonder why they move away from lower numbers so quickly, before the child automatically knows the basic facts and (to some extent) understands the relationships between them. For example, she automatically knows that 4 + 2 = 6. She knows this, she doesn't count up with it. But she freezes when she sees 2 + 4 = ___.

 

I did think that one possibility of why Horizons moves into 39 + 2, 43 + 5 and so on (instead of sticking with mastery of 9 + 2 and 3 + 5) is that they use these addition problems (with a number line) to teach addition as counting on AND to introduce higher and higher numbers to the student. I will say, she LOVES the idea of working with higher numbers.

 

What should I do about the fact that she doesn't see that if 5 + 2 = 7, then 2 + 5 = 7 (she still counts up). Cuisenaire rods? We've done these, lots of times (often for play, too). It doesn't click, really. She LOVES math fact drill, though. She says she LOVES doing math, too. She LOVES listening to math fact songs, working with manipulatives, completing her Horizons pages. She is eager and willing, but has a clueless mother. Alas, poor child, this is why I called on the help of the hive.

 

Horizons is using the number line as the manipulative. So, covering it up is like taking it away, which caused the confusion. As she continues to work with the number line, and as she matures, the relationship to concrete numbers in her thought process will move more and more into the abstract. Manipulatives are for the purpose of showing number relationship in a concrete way; whether you are using a base ten rod, or something else (in our homeschool, we used pop bottle caps), the manipulative represents a number of somethings. Seeing the group concretely is the way for a child to understand the whole concept of math, and relationships of groups of items.

 

I understand math frustration! Been there many times. If you want to switch her math, do it now while she is young. It is from experience (the hard way!) that I would advise sticking with one publisher in math if.at.all.possible through grade 6, because in grade 7 almost all of the publishers start again at the same place in their scope, their goal then being to prepare the child for taking Algebra I in high school.

 

HTH!

~Cocoa

Edited June 8, 2010 by cocoabean

[laurad1125]

While reading this thread, one thing keeps coming into my head. From the Horizons TM - students aren't supposed to master the concept the first time it's presented. It's more an exposure thing. Each concept will be presented several times each year and they should master it by the end of the year. It's a different math philosophy....

 

We've used 4, 5, and 1. I just got 2 and 6 in the mail yesterday. We've tried MUS (a complete flop for us), Singapore (just not a good fit) and Saxon (ds just didn't want a textbook) and Horizons is the first time ds11 has actually liked math. He's always been good at it but hated it until now.

[Tess in the Burbs]

What should I do about the fact that she doesn't see that if 5 + 2 = 7, then 2 + 5 = 7 (she still counts up).

 

I noticed this year both my kids have places they have to write down math facts in their workbooks as both ways. And it helps to see it visually. SO perhaps you just need to show her it can be either way. It will keep presenting them in both ways and the point is to show how those two numbers always equal the same thing

 

I have flash cards that show the numbers as a triangle with the larger on top. We have them for add/subtract and then multiply/divide. This way they see the relationship between all three numbers and associate 5 and 2 are 7 no matter which is added first. In the multiply/divide one you can see the relationship of the multiplication fact and easily go to the division facts.

 

I finally figured out my kids needed to write down the facts. I assume you are following the teacher manual and doing any of the before lesson review? I don't have the K teacher set anymore so can't go see what it has as I don't remember. But if you are doing the drill and flashcards aren't working then go to writing. My kids simple write their facts....the pairs...and it helps cement the facts. We still do it on those off days when all math has left the brain ;)

 

I did finally keep moving on in the book even if they didn't know something by memory. Those were the days we stopped and write the facts relating to the problem they didn't know and then did the problem. The review helped and they did learn their facts! With mastery in MUS I felt I had to stop completely but with spiral we can keep going b/c we know it will keep reviewing!

Edited June 9, 2010 by tess in the burbs