So now can y'all prescribe history?

[JudoMom]

I'm no authority on TOG, when Aubrey mentioned she was considering it I went to take a look. Right away I see the American History Spine is H E Marshall's This Country of Ours, and the World History text is Van Loon's The Story of Mankind.

 

These are reprehensible works. There is no other way to describe them. Both contain ugly bigotry that can not be edited around. I do not buy the argument that works like these are good for opening "discussion" when used as a main history text. For children teaching texts take on a certain authority no matter how hard one might attempt to teach against the text.

 

These books are ugly. Why bring ugliness into our homes and into our children's worldview when there are decent alternatives?

 

I think the publishers of TOG should be ashamed of themselves for the inclusion of these works in their program. The fact that they are not alone in using them in no way removes or lightens their moral responsibility in their decision making.

 

Is there a complete TOG book list somewhere?

 

Bill

 

You do realize the TOG is more than a booklist? It seems that you are jumping to conclusions based on the inclusion of books, rather than looking at the program itself (which is not a booklist).

[Spy Car]

 

History books are tricky. They tend to go overboard on one side or the other, especially for American History.

 

Elizabeth, if you pre-read This Counrty of Ours you will discover is is "untweekable."

 

I'd urge you to look into the aforementioned The Drama of American History series. It is an exceptionally good American History series for the middle years, and does not go overboard for one side or the other, and instead presets both sides of disputes in their best possible case. The books are well written, fair minded and very engaging. I think you would really like it.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

You do realize the TOG is more than a booklist? It seems that you are jumping to conclusions based on the inclusion of books, rather than looking at the program itself (which is not a booklist).

 

But it does include booklists, mais non?

 

And the history spines include (if I'm not mistaken) absolutely reprehensible works. And Douglas Wilson, and the Sarah Noble book, and goodness knows what else.

 

The inclusion of these kinds of materials are indefensible as far as I'm concerned. What's in TOG beyond this is beyond me, I make no claims otherwise, but the inclusion of these history texts is deeply disturbing to me.

 

Bill

[Aubrey]

I'm no authority on TOG, when Aubrey mentioned she was considering it I went to take a look. Right away I see the American History Spine is H E Marshall's This Country of Ours, and the World History text is Van Loon's The Story of Mankind.

 

These are reprehensible works. There is no other way to describe them. Both contain ugly bigotry that can not be edited around. I do not buy the argument that works like these are good for opening "discussion" when used as a main history text. For children teaching texts take on a certain authority no matter how hard one might attempt to teach against the text.

 

These books are ugly. Why bring ugliness into our homes and into our children's worldview when there are decent alternatives?

 

I think the publishers of TOG should be ashamed of themselves for the inclusion of these works in their program. The fact that they are not alone in using them in no way removes or lightens their moral responsibility in their decision making.

 

Is there a complete TOG book list somewhere?

 

Bill

 

I've never heard of these books; I looked at the...oh, I can't find it now, but it looks like an Excel spreadsheet detailing the subjects covered across the timeline, from more commonly addressed subjects like political history and science to less often covered things like philosophy, church history, and art. I loved that part.

 

They've done a map of world history like a real road map. I thought this was sort-of interesting; dh was fascinated by it, lol.

 

There is a resource list that you can look at, print, etc, for free, but you do have to create a user name & password to do so.

 

Ultimately, TOG looked like a more classical WTM version of SL, & that's what I'm drawn to. I can't put something together myself because I don't work well in groups. :lol: I'll end up creating something great while my kids play, & they won't get history at all. :001_huh:

 

Otherwise, everything I've looked at a) overwhelms me because there's so much to choose from, b) seems awfully loosey-goosey in its organization, c) I'm not sure how to describe c. Christian curriculum makes me suspicious; I don't want to find out something was omitted or extrememly biased later on, so I guess I feel safer w/ curric that is comfortably opposite my views (so I recognize potential bias) or (& this is ideal) academically focused so that it doesn't really have a horse in most of the debatable issues.

 

Iow, if a text is biased against a Christian world view, I'm more likely to notice or hear about it. Biased *for* a Christian world view might slip past unnoticed, or would make me REALLY mad because there are some things like this that give all of us a bad name.

[Aubrey]

Elizabeth, if you pre-read This Counrty of Ours you will discover is is "untweekable."

 

I'd urge you to look into the aforementioned The Drama of American History series. It is an exceptionally good American History series for the middle years, and does not go overboard for one side or the other, and instead presets both sides of disputes in their best possible case. The books are well written, fair minded and very engaging. I think you would really like it.

 

Bill

 

But that's just American History. (I know you incl a world hist suggestion earlier.) The problem is they're books. Just books. Sure, we could just use books. We could take the ones you suggested or an encyclopedia or whatever, read a little, outline, but...then we're back to WTM suggestions. :lol: I really, really think WTM suggestions are very good & more than adequate. I just can't make them work *for us.*

[Spy Car]

But that's just American History. (I know you incl a world hist suggestion earlier.) The problem is they're books. Just books. Sure, we could just use books. We could take the ones you suggested or an encyclopedia or whatever, read a little, outline, but...then we're back to WTM suggestions. :lol: I really, really think WTM suggestions are very good & more than adequate. I just can't make them work *for us.*

 

I have not read them, but the two-part K12 series "The Human Odyssey" (as I mentioned earlier) has gotten nothing but great reviews from the parents on this forum whose opinions I trust most.

 

Bill

Edited June 8, 2010 by Spy Car

[EKS]

A great spine for middle school is K12's Human Odyssey series. I supplement with additional reading, particularly historical fiction, as well as writing and some DVDs. We don't do history projects here.

[Spy Car]

But that's just American History. (I know you incl a world hist suggestion earlier.) The problem is they're books. Just books. Sure, we could just use books. We could take the ones you suggested or an encyclopedia or whatever, read a little, outline, but...then we're back to WTM suggestions. :lol: I really, really think WTM suggestions are very good & more than adequate. I just can't make them work *for us.*

 

The Drama of American history series is not "just books." Trust me on this, and then verify it for yourself, this series will provoke questions about which side was right or wrong in a dispute (or as likely) show how both sides might be right and wrong, or how compromise may (or may not) have been a reasonable middle ground. There is enough information for young people to begin to have a balanced picture of events and to begin the life-long journey of making sense of our history.

 

Bill

[Aubrey]

The Drama of American history series is not "just books." Trust me on this, and then verify it for yourself, this series will provoke questions about which side was right or wrong in a dispute (or as likely) show how both sides might be right and wrong, or how compromise may (or may not) have been a reasonable middle ground. There is enough information for young people to begin to have a balanced picture of events and to begin the life-long journey of making sense of our history.

 

Bill

 

Ok, Bill! I didn't mean to criticize the series--I mainly meant that I was looking for more of a world hist than Am & more of a curric than a book or encyclopedia. I will look at these & at least consider them, if nothing else, alongside whatever else we do. :001_smile:

[ElizabethB]

Elizabeth, if you pre-read This Counrty of Ours you will discover is is "untweekable."

 

I'd urge you to look into the aforementioned The Drama of American History series. It is an exceptionally good American History series for the middle years, and does not go overboard for one side or the other, and instead presets both sides of disputes in their best possible case. The books are well written, fair minded and very engaging. I think you would really like it.

 

Bill

 

I will look into it, thanks. I have done history on our own so far, but am trying out HOD next year, it takes a lot of work to plan and integrate.

 

Here is a year one book list for TOG:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A223E1ZG3RXL3/ref=cm_pdp_lm_all

 

My friends who use it substitute out many of the books, it really seems designed as more of road map/discussion guide with ideas about how to integrate things and good questions to discuss at the higher levels.

 

I am with Aubrey, the book list thing doesn't work well for me for the most part. Maybe if we all lobby him, MCT will come up with something! I am enjoying reading his "Classics in the Classroom" and "The Heart of the Mind."

[Karen in CO]

But the problem we have is that we don't really have is that isn't a better alternative for the things that TOG excels at. For several years, I looked at TOG and dismissed it because of books it included or the fact that it had a world view that was very different than mine. However, after squeaking through 3 years of homeschooling high school to a kid that reads faster than my pace and loves deep discussion, I gave TOG a try just for my own sanity. It was like a breath of fresh air for me.

 

I've been doing this for several years with more than one kid. I work full-time outside of homeschooling. In my world, I know that I will not be able to keep up with my kids in litertaure, history, government and philosophical discussions without something exactly like what TOG is. I would love to have something that came from a more liberal** point of view, but I haven't found it yet. I will continue to preread all of our books, because thats how I roll :) but I will not throw out a terrific discussion guide becuase I do not agree with the authors or the books the author chose. The discussions are that good, and everyone should preread the books they give their kids.

 

 

** you can't use a word like liberal around here and assume that people have the same understanding of it. Before anyone assumes what kind of liberal I mean, I will say that I mean generous and broad the way it used to be defined. Here is an except from the flaming liberal Charlotte Mason

 

It is our part to see to it that books take root in the homes of our scholars and we must make parents understand that it is impossible to give a liberal education to children who have not a due provision of very various books. Moreover, it is impossible to teach children to spell when they do not read for themselves; we hear complaints of the difficulties of spelling, of the necessity to do violence to the language which is dear to us all in order to make 'spelling made easy'; but in thousands of cases that come before us we find that children who use their books for themselves spell well because they visualise the words they read. Those who merely listen to their teacher have no guide (in English at any rate) to the spelling of the words they hear. We are, perhaps, opposed to oral lessons or lectures except by way of occasional review or introduction. For actual education children must do their own work out of their own books under the sympathetic guidance of an intelligent teacher. We find, I may add, that once parents recognise how necessary a considerable supply of books is, they make no difficulty about getting those set in our programmes. Mr. Fisher says, "there are books and text-books," and the day is at hand when we shall all see that the latter are of no educational value.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Karen in CO

[everettrj]

I have to agree with the pp that the point to a lot of TOG's books are that they are written in the time in which is being studied and giving the student a real understanding of frame of minds back then (be they bigoted, ignorant, etc) In fact when I looked TCoOurs up on Amazon the 2008 publishers note actually reminds the parents that this is a 'product of it's time' and recommends the parents discuss with their children 'how views on race have changed'.

For what it's worth (mind you I haven't begun TOG yet) after going through a 'tutorial' on their site it explained that they actually list library call number's on several of the reference books so you can supplement books on that subject, when the specific listed book isn't available to you.

I was very undecided about whether or not to go with TOG until I went through this tutorial, which really helped things come together, I had heard so many people say it was too confusing, too time consuming etc.

Anyway here is the link to the Egypt and New World Tutorials http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/sample/

HOH! :)

[Aubrey]

I have to agree with the pp that the point to a lot of TOG's books are that they are written in the time in which is being studied and giving the student a real understanding of frame of minds back then (be they bigoted, ignorant, etc) In fact when I looked TCoOurs up on Amazon the 2008 publishers note actually reminds the parents that this is a 'product of it's time' and recommends the parents discuss with their children 'how views on race have changed'.

For what it's worth (mind you I haven't begun TOG yet) after going through a 'tutorial' on their site it explained that they actually list library call number's on several of the reference books so you can supplement books on that subject, when the specific listed book isn't available to you.

I was very undecided about whether or not to go with TOG until I went through this tutorial, which really helped things come together, I had heard so many people say it was too confusing, too time consuming etc.

Anyway here is the link to the Egypt and New World Tutorials http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/sample/

HOH! :)

 

Oh, that's interesting & good to know!

[Karen in CO]

Oh, that's interesting & good to know!

 

I understand about that, but I wouldn't read them to my kids or hand them over to be read either. When they are older, we can discuss it. My ds and I had a few terrific discussions about Heart of Darkness when we read that. I was disconcerted by the level of racism expressed in that book. It was a great discussion to have with a highschooler, but I am not ready to read that stuff to my littles. I threw out those aweful workbooks that SL uses in their 3 and 4 history because of similar content to the ones Bill is protesting.

[TracyP]

I understand about that, but I wouldn't read them to my kids or hand them over to be read either. When they are older, we can discuss it. My ds and I had a few terrific discussions about Heart of Darkness when we read that. I was disconcerted by the level of racism expressed in that book. It was a great discussion to have with a highschooler, but I am not ready to read that stuff to my littles. I threw out those aweful workbooks that SL uses in their 3 and 4 history because of similar content to the ones Bill is protesting.

 

I have had concerns with TCoO so am enjoying this thread but I wanted to point out that TOG has 12-15 year olds reading this book. Maybe everyone knows that but I just wanted to make sure.

[Jen+4dc]

A great spine for middle school is K12's Human Odyssey series. I supplement with additional reading, particularly historical fiction, as well as writing and some DVDs. We don't do history projects here.

 

:iagree:

 

I have never liked textbooks for history. But this one (we've been through the Ancients and are starting Middle Ages) is actually very nice. We read a lot of historical fiction and library non-fiction to flesh it out. It's totally secular and, so far, well-balanced and respectful of all peoples.

[Spy Car]

I have to agree with the pp that the point to a lot of TOG's books are that they are written in the time in which is being studied and giving the student a real understanding of frame of minds back then (be they bigoted, ignorant, etc) In fact when I looked TCoOurs up on Amazon the 2008 publishers note actually reminds the parents that this is a 'product of it's time' and recommends the parents discuss with their children 'how views on race have changed'.

For what it's worth (mind you I haven't begun TOG yet) after going through a 'tutorial' on their site it explained that they actually list library call number's on several of the reference books so you can supplement books on that subject, when the specific listed book isn't available to you.

I was very undecided about whether or not to go with TOG until I went through this tutorial, which really helped things come together, I had heard so many people say it was too confusing, too time consuming etc.

Anyway here is the link to the Egypt and New World Tutorials http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/sample/HOH! :)

 

This Country of Our was written in 1917. This does not make it contemporaneous with Colonial History or the Civil War or much else in American History save WWI.

 

Saying it is a "product of another time" is an overly gentle characterization of the work. One hopes views on race have changed since then (I'm less than certain sometimes on this forum, sad to say), but it does beg the question: Why use such an odious book, when it is not a primary source from the period, and the history is often faulty, and it is riddled with bigotry? There are far better alternatives available.

 

I'm sorry to doubt motives, but I've come to believe that some homeschool publishers use materials like these because they share the anachronistic values in books like these and seek to perpetuate them in children. What alternative conclusion is a person to reach?

 

Bill

[everettrj]

This Country of Our was written in 1917. This does not make it contemporaneous with Colonial History or the Civil War or much else in American History save WWI.

 

Saying it is a "product of another time" is an overly gentle characterization of the work. One hopes views on race have changed since then (I'm less than certain sometimes on this forum, sad to say), but it does beg the question: Why use such an odious book, when it is not a primary source from the period, and the history is often faulty, and it is riddled with bigotry? There are far better alternatives available.

 

I'm sorry to doubt motives, but I've come to believe that some homeschool publishers use materials like these because they share the anachronistic values in books like these and seek to perpetuate them in children. What alternative conclusion is a person to reach?

 

Bill

 

I can completely see what you mean and where you're coming from and even agree as to possible motives to write anything that would be used to teach (as this is an unfortunate byproduct of using curriculum written by anyone other than ourselves). As I have not read this particular book and am not embarking on the year in which it is assigned anytime soon, I was not familiar yet with its content. While I always read through and 'screen' what my children read and watch, rest assured I personally would look to supplement/omit anything to which I found to be unnecessary to what we're learning about.

Please know though, that I am in absolutely no way condoning bigotry, racism, or anything of the sort. I only recognize it as an extrodinarily unfortunate and horrific part of both past and present history and would only teach it in such a way to my children.

Side note, I really do appreciate this discussion, we need more 'Bill's' to keep people aware, thinking and on their toes about what might sometimes be things to slip through the cracks :)

Side side note, thanks for letting me in on this discussion, I was a bit timid seeing is how I'm the uber newbie to absolutely ALL of this! ;)

[Bayt ul-Hikmah]

There is an elephant in the room when it comes to racism in homeschooling texts. What a shame!

 

 

I could not agree more.

[dancer67]

I'd urge you to look into the aforementioned The Drama of American History series. It is an exceptionally good American History series for the middle years, and does not go overboard for one side or the other, and instead presets both sides of disputes in their best possible case. The books are well written, fair minded and very engaging. I think you would really like it.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

We checked these books out at the library and love them. We are going to be using these alongside Our Land of Liberty.

 

 

It is not as if there is one or two offensive passages, it is the whole book that reeks of bigotry. The text can be found online (it is in the public domain) so any person interested can preview the work for themselves. I find it absolutely shocking that TOG would use this book as an American History spine.

 

Van Loon's world history, if less muscular in its bigotry, is no less offensive. And from what I understand it is also a TOG spine.

 

Both, are from my perspective, morally unacceptable.

 

Bill

 

I thought it was just me. This is the main reason we decided not to use TOG. I really wanted to use this to. But I just could not bring myself to use these texts, or some of the other books suggested, when there is so many other things out there.(Which IMO, I really wish there was some new History curricula published.)

[Spy Car]

I can completely see what you mean and where you're coming from and even agree as to possible motives to write anything that would be used to teach (as this is an unfortunate byproduct of using curriculum written by anyone other than ourselves). As I have not read this particular book and am not embarking on the year in which it is assigned anytime soon, I was not familiar yet with its content. While I always read through and 'screen' what my children read and watch, rest assured I personally would look to supplement/omit anything to which I found to be unnecessary to what we're learning about.

Please know though, that I am in absolutely no way condoning bigotry, racism, or anything of the sort. I only recognize it as an extrodinarily unfortunate and horrific part of both past and present history and would only teach it in such a way to my children.

Side note, I really do appreciate this discussion, we need more 'Bill's' to keep people aware, thinking and on their toes about what might sometimes be things to slip through the cracks :)

Side side note, thanks for letting me in on this discussion, I was a bit timid seeing is how I'm the uber newbie to absolutely ALL of this! ;)

 

Welcome to the forum :001_smile:

 

Bill

[Karen in CO]

Side side note, thanks for letting me in on this discussion, I was a bit timid seeing is how I'm the uber newbie to absolutely ALL of this! ;)

 

Welcome. And you should see our mythology or creation discussions. :lol:

[ElizabethB]

Welcome. And you should see our mythology or creation discussions. :lol:

 

No, it is crock pots and shoes and shopping carts that really get people riled, this was nothing!

[Aubrey]

Ok, I just looked at TOG's sample New World unit, & SOTW is an alternate for TCoO. They've also got Cowan's Invitation to the Classics, which has been sitting on my Amazon wish list ever since I read about it.

 

I wonder if TCoO is on the list for TOG & Ambleside simply because it's free online? I skimmed a couple of ch's, but was very disrupted & didn't see anything particularly great OR objectionable, but I probably overlooked it.

 

My point, though, is I've spent the afternoon reading about Biblioplan, Mystery of History, even Calvert & BJU after I got really fed up w/ history curric websites, &...I'm not seeing good *curriculum* for history to follow SOTW.

 

I don't know about TOG's booklist, but of what I've seen, the plan & philosophy of it is my favorite. Still, looking through the samples of the New World & Egypt left me very...*sigh*...bored. It sort of looks like a fancy booklist with review questions spread through a maze-like notebook. Once you've looked at it hard enough to figure out how to use it, you're too worn out to realize...this is just review questions for books we read. :001_huh:

 

Surely I'm missing/misunderstanding something. Ultimately, that's "all" SOTW is. But you get *content* instead of just notes & you get it for so much less $. And fwiw, I want to love TOG. I want Bill to be wrong about TCoO, too. Or at least TOG's motives for using it. Gosh, the bit that I read didn't even seem to have *that* good of a narrative style to it--it was that old-fashioned condescending-to-a-kid narrator. *groan* I can't stand subjectivity. I'm on the verge of replacing history w/ math. :lol:

Edited June 9, 2010 by Aubrey

[Mommyfaithe]

Elizabeth, if you pre-read This Counrty of Ours you will discover is is "untweekable."

 

I'd urge you to look into the aforementioned The Drama of American History series. It is an exceptionally good American History series for the middle years, and does not go overboard for one side or the other, and instead presets both sides of disputes in their best possible case. The books are well written, fair minded and very engaging. I think you would really like it.

 

Bill

 

Bill, Do you think these books would offend a Christian? I am curious and never heard of these. I am having such a difficult time finding an Amer Hx text which does not glorify Margaret Sanger and FDR on one hand (not that they are the same, but I do not heroify either one of these,) and on the other hand are either providential or archaic and racist...

 

I never thought it would be so difficult to find an Am Hx text that was a fair representation of America's Hx IN AMERICA! It is so frustrating. I basically kept to picture biographies...LOL...and picture books on our national songs, events and folk stories....

 

~~Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

I can completely see what you mean and where you're coming from and even agree as to possible motives to write anything that would be used to teach (as this is an unfortunate byproduct of using curriculum written by anyone other than ourselves). As I have not read this particular book and am not embarking on the year in which it is assigned anytime soon, I was not familiar yet with its content. While I always read through and 'screen' what my children read and watch, rest assured I personally would look to supplement/omit anything to which I found to be unnecessary to what we're learning about.

Please know though, that I am in absolutely no way condoning bigotry, racism, or anything of the sort. I only recognize it as an extrodinarily unfortunate and horrific part of both past and present history and would only teach it in such a way to my children.

Side note, I really do appreciate this discussion, we need more 'Bill's' to keep people aware, thinking and on their toes about what might sometimes be things to slip through the cracks :)

Side side note, thanks for letting me in on this discussion, I was a bit timid seeing is how I'm the uber newbie to absolutely ALL of this! ;)

 

Welcome Rebecca....By the way, this was the reason I can not in good conscience follow Ambleside Online in its entirety....I love the layout and the method of teaching...but I substitute so many of the books that it no longer resembles an AO year...but then again , it is free, so I am able to toss whatever I want and not feel bad....LOL

 

For discussion questions and dialogue on the books my kids read, I usually turn to spark notes (also free) or WTM suggestions for lit questions.

 

TOG may have done the research, but I find their program so complicated and difficult to use, it makes my eyeballs water and my head ache...

 

Maybe it's just me though....

 

So, anyway...welcome aboard!

 

Faithe

[Aubrey]

Bill, Do you think these books would offend a Christian? I am curious and never heard of these. I am having such a difficult time finding an Amer Hx text which does not glorify Margaret Sanger and FDR on one hand (not that they are the same, but I do not heroify either one of these,) and on the other hand are either providential or archaic and racist...

 

I never thought it would be so difficult to find an Am Hx text that was a fair representation of America's Hx IN AMERICA! It is so frustrating. I basically kept to picture biographies...LOL...and picture books on our national songs, events and folk stories....

 

~~Faithe

 

Well, I was going to copy a review for you AND link it, but then it had a copyright at the bottom...? So anyway, go here and read the reviews. (This one's for Pilgrims & Puritans, so I thought it might be particularly relevant.) They make the books look pretty fair & well-written.

[Mommyfaithe]

Well, I was going to copy a review for you AND link it, but then it had a copyright at the bottom...? So anyway, go here and read the reviews. (This one's for Pilgrims & Puritans, so I thought it might be particularly relevant.) They make the books look pretty fair & well-written.

 

Thanks Aubrey...Looks like my library has these, so I just ordered one...

I'll let ya know what I think.

 

Faithe

[everettrj]

Thanks for the 'Welcomes' I do love some hearty *ahem* discussions so I will keep an eye out for the lively convo's you all are referring to ;)

 

Ftr I feel as though I am getting to 'try out' TOG as I happened upon someone who had Y1 already set in binders, neatly organized and only asked $20.00 for it! Indication of you get what you pay for or meant to be?? I'll let you all know! :D

 

In the meantime nice to meet you all! I'm excited and looking forward to the journey ahead!

 

But I digress, did not mean to hijack, back to topic :bigear:

[Aubrey]

Thanks for the 'Welcomes' I do love some hearty *ahem* discussions so I will keep an eye out for the lively convo's you all are referring to ;)

 

Ftr I feel as though I am getting to 'try out' TOG as I happened upon someone who had Y1 already set in binders, neatly organized and only asked $20.00 for it! Indication of you get what you pay for or meant to be?? I'll let you all know! :D

 

In the meantime nice to meet you all! I'm excited and looking forward to the journey ahead!

 

But I digress, did not mean to hijack, back to topic :bigear:

 

Oh my gosh, I'm so jealous! (And feeling pretty dumb that I didn't read TOG in your sig line!) :lol:

 

Do let us know about TOG. It seems to always be a big discussion here, although this is the first time I've ever seen *these* issues w/ it--it's usually how overwhelmed people are.

[Spy Car]

Bill, Do you think these books would offend a Christian? I am curious and never heard of these. I am having such a difficult time finding an Amer Hx text which does not glorify Margaret Sanger and FDR on one hand (not that they are the same, but I do not heroify either one of these,) and on the other hand are either providential or archaic and racist...

 

I never thought it would be so difficult to find an Am Hx text that was a fair representation of America's Hx IN AMERICA! It is so frustrating. I basically kept to picture biographies...LOL...and picture books on our national songs, events and folk stories....

 

~~Faithe

 

I can not imagine that they would. They are not Providential History, but what I've seen of the series was has been very fair-minded and balanced. This is a series I would expect anyone who desired intelligent and well-written American History that attempted to minimize bias would really enjoy.

 

I'm hoping more folks whose politics are more conservative than my own will read and evaluate this series, because I think they might be happily surprised.

 

Perhaps you could get some in the series from the library and offer your impressions. I'd like to know what you think.

 

For myself, I took AP American History in High School, and a three semester American History course at University, plus a number of upper division classes in American History topics, and have always been curious about our history. These books present the stories just as I would attempt to (taking into considerations corrections for my own biases) in attempt to be as fair minded as possible. And I'm amazed how well the authors succeed toward those objectives.

 

Bill

[Carol in Cal.]

Bill, Do you think these books would offend a Christian? I am curious and never heard of these. I am having such a difficult time finding an Amer Hx text which does not glorify Margaret Sanger and FDR on one hand (not that they are the same, but I do not heroify either one of these,) and on the other hand are either providential or archaic and racist...

 

I never thought it would be so difficult to find an Am Hx text that was a fair representation of America's Hx IN AMERICA! It is so frustrating. I basically kept to picture biographies...LOL...and picture books on our national songs, events and folk stories....

 

~~Faithe

 

I think it covers the true Christian events of history, the documentable influences of Christianity on American history, without straying into Providentialism. I have to say, it's a bit dry for my taste. I want to like it more than I do; it's not as engaging as SOTW. But it is well balanced, and I believe it meets your wishes. It's written at about a 7th grade level or so. Two years worth of material--starting in either 6th or 7th grade would be reasonable, I would say.

[Violet Crown]

I can not imagine that they would. They are not Providential History, but what I've seen of the series was has been very fair-minded and balanced. This is a series I would expect anyone who desired intelligent and well-written American History that attempted to minimize bias would really enjoy.

 

I'm hoping more folks whose politics are more conservative than my own will read and evaluate this series, because I think they might be happily surprised.

 

Perhaps you could get some in the series from the library and offer your impressions. I'd like to know what you think.

 

For myself, I took AP American History in High School, and a three semester American History course at University, plus a number of upper division classes in American History topics, and have always been curious about our history. These books present the stories just as I would attempt to (taking into considerations corrections for my own biases) in attempt to be as fair minded as possible. And I'm amazed how well the authors succeed toward those objectives.

 

Bill

Bill,

 

I think the question about history books offending Christians gets near to the question you have about the use by homeschoolers of books that are unacceptable by any measure.

 

Offering evidence-by-anecdote ... In my high school World History text, the Catholic Church was mentioned exactly twice (I checked the index). First for the Papal bull dividing South America between the Spanish and Portuguese, which was presented as a ridiculous old tyrant thinking he could parcel out the world and its inhabitants to whomever he wished. Second for the Reformation, which focused on Tetzel and his indulgence-selling, and was the most Whiggish approach to the whole period one could imagine. And that was it.

 

More recently, for my oldest daughter's U.S. history text, I selected America: A Narrative History, which was recommended by both high school AP teachers and university faculty members for its fairness and high quality. In the very first chapter, behold the old canard that the Catholic Church, as it always had, simply appropriated pagan feast days and dressed them up as Catholic holy days. No footnotes, no suggestion that this might no longer be conventional wisdom among medieval historians: just the raw declaration of What Everybody Knows.

 

I try not to be "offensensitive" (as Opus put it). But I think a lot of Christian hs'ers feel that the only way they can themselves be treated fairly, and not scorned, marginalized, or offered as history's villains, is to have recourse to these older books. I don't offer this as an excuse--I won't use these materials myself (though I'm chagrined to realize from this thread that I didn't pre-read Sarah Noble, and now I'm going to go do that)--but I understand the feelings that I suspect underlie their use. There are some really awful, triumphalistic history texts popular among Catholic hs'ers, which would make you spit to read (please don't read them :lol:), and yet sometimes I look at them and feel The Temptation: Who cares if others are being treated fairly, if at least we're being treated with respect for a change.

 

Edited to add:

I'm not at all trying to suggest that all, or most, or any hs'ers are using the controverted texts because they don't care how others are treated; only that (a) sometimes it appears that the better a text treats a marginalized group, the worse Christians are marginalized, and that using older, even racially offensive, texts seems like a tradeoff; and (b) sometimes I personally am tempted to place my own "tribe"'s interests above that of others, out of both impatience and exhaustion.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Sharon in Austin

[M&M]

You are offended because I decry the racism openly expressed in texts used by TOG?

 

Do I need to pull passages from TCoO to make my point? I hope not.

 

There is a vast difference between teaching ones children that there are racists out there in the world, and using history textbooks filled with vile bigotry as ones teaching materials.

 

Is it OK with you how Native Americans African Americans and the issue of slavery are portrayed in This Country of Ours? That does not insult you???

 

I'm sorry, but I think your feelings of insult are misdirected.

 

Bill

 

No, my offence is at your passing judgement on a whole curricula that you know nothing about basied on a quick search. How did you happen upon just those books that offend? I have used three years of TOG and have never encountered any books of this type before.

 

Do I disagree that TCOO may be a terrible book...no, because I have not read it and will not pass judgement until I do. You however have not only passed judgement but also recommended books that you admittedly did not read. You did not read my post explaining my offence, you have not read much on TOG, or the alt book you suggest, yet you set yourself up to be expert in this area.

 

I am offended that I as an African American have been put in the position (by you) that I have recommended a curriculum that you have now dubbed racist. I am offended that you accuse the Sommervilles of racism so very quickly.

 

Do not tell me where my feelings should or should not be directed. Address me with respect or not at all.

[Spy Car]

No, my offence is at your passing judgement on a whole curricula that you know nothing about basied on a quick search. How did you happen upon just those books that offend?

 

They were among the first books to pop-up on the Tapestry of Grace website when I popped-over to take a look. I am well familiar with these works and was quite disheartened to see there were the history spins for a program as widely used as TOG.

 

Do I disagree that TCOO may be a terrible book...no, because I have not read it and will not pass judgement until I do.

 

I think you ought to read it (not to your children) and then you will understand why I'm making an issue out of their use by a homeschool publisher in their program aimed at children.

 

You however have not only passed judgement but also recommended books that you admittedly did not read.

 

This isn't the case. I was clear about what I've read (and have not read) and suggested parents check out the Drama of American History for themselves. Everyone who has ordered the series since it first entered the hive-conscientiousness recently has reported back glowing commentary.

 

I have not read the K12 Human Odyssey (and said so) I simply reported that many of the members of this forum whose opinions on educational materials I most trust had extremely positive thing to say about about it. What is wrong with that?

 

You did not read my post explaining my offence, you have not read much on TOG, or the alt book you suggest, yet you set yourself up to be expert in this area.

 

Actually, I made it plain that I'm not an expert on TOG at all. I had not looked ate the program before the other night (which I stated plainly) but right away i saw they were using some of the most deeply bigoted history materials conceivable. This gives me pause.

 

I am offended that I as an African American have been put in the position (by you) that I have recommended a curriculum that you have now dubbed racist. I am offended that you accuse the Sommervilles of racism so very quickly.

 

I think your logic and sense of outrage is backwards. If the materials used by TOG are racist (I definitely believe they are, and anyone interested can read TCoO as text on the web) then the fault lies with TOG. My pointing out the truth of the situation does not make me at fault. That you have recommended them has nothing to do with me or the nature of these works. I am sorry if you are now in an embarrassing position.

 

Do not tell me where my feelings should or should not be directed. Address me with respect or not at all.

 

Excuse me? I've been nothing but respectful towards you. If you are embarrassed or insulted that you have inadvertently recommended a program that includes materials that are deeply offensive to African Americans, Native Americans, Mormons, Muslims, and others, then you can be mad at me for being the messenger. Or you can examine the materials yourself, and (perhaps) be thankful for the heads-up.

 

Bill

[Susan in TX]

I wonder if TCoO is on the list for TOG & Ambleside simply because it's free online?

 

The reason why This Country of Ours is part of the Ambleside curriculum is because it is written by H.E. Marshall who is the author of Our Island Story, which was the British history book used by Charlotte Mason and her schools. As far as I know, TCoO was out of print and very rare and the Ambleside folks put it online and then somebody reprinted it. So the only reason this book is used by anybody is thanks to the Ambleside/CM community, and the fact that Charlotte Mason spoke very highly of Our Island Story.

 

Our Island Story was used by the correspondence school founded by Charlotte Mason until 1961, when it was decided to replace it because, "this book has certain biases which today people sometimes find repellent". (The Parents' Review Vol. 75, no 10, 1964, p 249-254. Knowledge of Man by Jean C. Cochrane, M.A., Principal, the P.N.E.U. School http://amblesideonline.org/PR/PR75p249KnowledgeofMan.shtml)

 

Susan in TX

Edited June 9, 2010 by Susan in TX

[Shelly in the Country]

Something just occurred to me...

 

I have heard before that TOG purposefully does not schedule every chapter of some resources. I read on these boards once that, using History of US by Joy Hakim as an example, some chapters were skipped because they were deemed too problematic by TOG. Now, in the discussion at hand, has anyone actually looked to see whether the offending chapters in TCoO are even scheduled for reading in TOG? I quickly flipped through my copy of TCoO this morning (We haven't started Year 2 yet, but I have purchased all my books already for the coming year.). I could not find anything in my cursory flipping, but I have no idea what offensive chapters I'm looking for. So...

 

Could you provide us with a list of offensive chapters (TOG schedules TCoO by chapter) so we can all check our TMs to see if they are even scheduled?

 

I also want to echo a previous poster who indicated that many resources which are inoffensive on racial/ethnic questions are often extraordinarily offensive to Christians. I am a very conservative Christian and of mixed race so I am sensitive on both counts. Buying any history text is fraught with peril...

[M&M]

 

 

I think you ought to read it (not to your children) and then you will understand why I'm making an issue out of their use by a homeschool publisher in their program aimed at children.

 

 

I never said that I wouldn't.

 

 

 

 

Actually, I made it plain that I'm not an expert on TOG at all. I had not looked ate the program before the other night (which I stated plainly) but right away i saw they were using some of the most deeply bigoted history materials conceivable. This gives me pause.

 

 

 

Bill

 

You are correct, I a wrong about this. And for this I apologize. Your pov on TOG and mine are different and I will leave it at that.

 

I regret any discourse with you as you seem to enjoy being the antagonist good for you, I am done. If you had just stated your view of those books and left it at that I would have never entered into a discussion with you.

 

I hope that anyone interested in TOG will check it out for themsevles and make an INFORMED decision.

[Spy Car]

Now, in the discussion at hand, has anyone actually looked to see whether the offending chapters in TCoO are even scheduled for reading in TOG?

 

The problem, Shelly, is it isn't as if there are "offending" chapters and non-offending chapters. H E Marshall's attitudes flavor every bit of this book. I don't see how a person could possibly edit around the problems. I really don't.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

I think the question about history books offending Christians gets near to the question you have about the use by homeschoolers of books that are unacceptable by any measure.

 

Offering evidence-by-anecdote ... In my high school World History text, the Catholic Church was mentioned exactly twice (I checked the index). First for the Papal bull dividing South America between the Spanish and Portuguese, which was presented as a ridiculous old tyrant thinking he could parcel out the world and its inhabitants to whomever he wished. Second for the Reformation, which focused on Tetzel and his indulgence-selling, and was the most Whiggish approach to the whole period one could imagine. And that was it.

 

More recently, for my oldest daughter's U.S. history text, I selected America: A Narrative History, which was recommended by both high school AP teachers and university faculty members for its fairness and high quality. In the very first chapter, behold the old canard that the Catholic Church, as it always had, simply appropriated pagan feast days and dressed them up as Catholic holy days. No footnotes, no suggestion that this might no longer be conventional wisdom among medieval historians: just the raw declaration of What Everybody Knows.

 

I try not to be "offensensitive" (as Opus put it). But I think a lot of Christian hs'ers feel that the only way they can themselves be treated fairly, and not scorned, marginalized, or offered as history's villains, is to have recourse to these older books. I don't offer this as an excuse--I won't use these materials myself (though I'm chagrined to realize from this thread that I didn't pre-read Sarah Noble, and now I'm going to go do that)--but I understand the feelings that I suspect underlie their use. There are some really awful, triumphalistic history texts popular among Catholic hs'ers, which would make you spit to read (please don't read them :lol:), and yet sometimes I look at them and feel The Temptation: Who cares if others are being treated fairly, if at least we're being treated with respect for a change.

 

Edited to add:

I'm not at all trying to suggest that all, or most, or any hs'ers are using the controverted texts because they don't care how others are treated; only that (a) sometimes it appears that the better a text treats a marginalized group, the worse Christians are marginalized, and that using older, even racially offensive, texts seems like a tradeoff; and (b) sometimes I personally am tempted to place my own "tribe"'s interests above that of others, out of both impatience and exhaustion.

 

I'd just suggest that there are two responses to encountering history books one finds unpalatable:

 

1) Replace books that cause offense to ones own religious or ethnic identity with works that would cause offense to others.

 

2) Replace offensive materials with good-solid history books that attempt to be fair-minded and scholarly.

 

I prefer the latter course.

 

Bill

[Violet Crown]

A few days ago at a little secondhand bookshop in Edinburgh I saw what is apparently Marshall's sequel to Our Island Story, titled Our Empire Story. The sections on South Africa are everything you could imagine.

[Spy Car]

You are correct, I a wrong about this. And for this I apologize. Your pov on TOG and mine are different and I will leave it at that.

 

I regret any discourse with you as you seem to enjoy being the antagonist good for you, I am done. If you had just stated your view of those books and left it at that I would have never entered into a discussion with you.

 

I hope that anyone interested in TOG will check it out for themsevles and make an INFORMED decision.

 

And here I thought I was the "protagonist" :D

 

I also believe parents should make informed decisions. I've stated repeatedly that the text of This Country of Ours is available online (see Baldwin Project).

 

I've also offer alternative suggestion for parents to check out so they can make informed decisions about these works as well.

 

You have not read This Country of Ours or Van Loon, so you really can't have an informed opinion on these (yet you are insulted that I mention their deeply offensive content).

 

Why not read them yourself instead of taking insult? Maybe then you'd have a very different feeling about the matter.

 

Bill

[Violet Crown]

Replace offensive materials with good-solid history books that attempt to be fair-minded and scholarly.

 

 

In practice, however, I find that the best solution is (3) Find the best and most accurate materials for each subject, and where they fail to be fair-minded (assuming it's a small failing, and not the warp and woof of the material), discuss it. My oldest daughter used America: A Narrative History because it is a good, solid, history book that attempts to be fair-minded and scholarly. That it occasionally failed, and usually in an anti-Christian direction (e.g. the student is required on one chapter quiz to mark as true that the California Franciscans were engaging in religious imperialism), was something I was willing to accept in a textbook for an older child. I have a science book I like that has some obnoxious anti-theist propaganda in the beginning; I skip that part and use the rest.

 

At any rate, I think you missed my larger point.

[M&M]

And here I thought I was the "protagonist" :D

 

 

You have not read This Country of Ours or Van Loon, so you really can't have an informed opinion on these (yet you are insulted that I mention their deeply offensive content).

Bill

 

 

NO I am not. I have been clear about that. You choose to discuss what you want, and not address what I have said. Leave me out of this I have had ENOUGH OF THIS!

[Shelly in the Country]

The problem, Shelly, is it isn't as if there are "offending" chapters and non-offending chapters. H E Marshall's attitudes flavor every bit of this book. I don't see how a person could possibly edit around the problems. I really don't.

 

Bill

 

I read a few snippets from TCoO.

Well, I caught a few snatches of "redman", "savages" and "fire-water"....:001_huh:

 

Good news (for my scheduling anyway), apparently I didn't schedule most of that book even though I bought it. I looked through my lesson plans for the year and saw that I had replaced it with Genevieve Foster's books and Streams of Civilization from TOG's Alternate Resource page. (I'm a curriculum junkie, I know.) I'll have to read more to make up my mind entirely. I want to teach my children that attitudes do change over time, and that book could be a good tutorial in archaic racial attitudes. TCoO is a Dialectic level book, not a Grammar stage read-aloud. I don't agree that it pervades the whole book though. I read a chapter on Pirates that I did schedule for next year and I can't find anything wrong with it. A pirate might disagree with me :tongue_smilie:.

 

I want to reiterate I have not read or seen anything from the Somervilles that would indicate they harbor racial prejudices which they are trying to convey through their book selections. The teacher notes I've browsed through are very fair-minded. TOG is really NOT a book list. It would be an awfully expensive book list... When it comes to TOG's history, really ANYTHING that covers the topic that week will generally allow one to answer the discussion questions. The literature is more specific.

[Sophia]

A pirate might disagree with me :tongue_smilie:.

 

 

 

:rofl::rofl: Now that was funny.:rofl::rofl:

[Spy Car]

 

At any rate, I think you missed my larger point.

 

The larger point being that members of faith communities don't like to feel slandered, disparaged, or disrespected? If that is the point, I fully concur.

 

Let me offer up the short section on "Mormonism" from This Country of Ours:

 

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=marshall&book=country&story=mormons

 

I hope people will read this chapter and ask themselves if such characterizations are acceptable. To me they are not.

 

The section on "Mohammedism" in Van Loon (while more polite) is an equally objectionable portrayal of Islam. Neither a Jew, a Muslim or a Christian (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or other) should have to read this kind of filth.

 

So I understand your point, and agree.

 

Bill

Edited June 9, 2010 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

I read a few snippets from TCoO.

Well, I caught a few snatches of "redman", "savages" and "fire-water"....:001_huh:

 

It doesn't get better Shelly. I know there are probably some reading this thread who are probably thinking the criticisms I'm making are overblown. I'd invite them to read the linked chapter on the Mormons posted above if they want to get a flavor for This Country of Ours

 

I want to reiterate I have not read or seen anything from the Somervilles that would indicate they harbor racial prejudices which they are trying to convey through their book selections. The teacher notes I've browsed through are very fair-minded. TOG is really NOT a book list. It would be an awfully expensive book list... When it comes to TOG's history, really ANYTHING that covers the topic that week will generally allow one to answer the discussion questions. The literature is more specific.

 

I have never heard of the Sommervilles, and know very (very) little about TOG. I do question the use of works like This Country of Ours and Van Loon's The Story of Mankind as history spines due to their blatant racism and bigotry. And I would deeply suspect offerings from a publisher who included these works in their programs.

 

Bill

[Violet Crown]

The larger point being that members of faith communities don't like to feel slandered, disparaged, or disrespected?

Well, not really that much of a truism, no. I do agree beyond the obvious statement that everyone wants their group respected, and hope we agree that one must therefore avoid slandering, disparaging, etc.

 

My point is that many hs'ers--and I've met Catholic, Protestant, LDS, and Moslem hs'ers who fall into this category--feel, rightly or wrongly, that a society that has at least ceased to marginalize certain groups has now found it acceptable to marginalize their group. Some people therefore feel that, as long as there simply isn't an unbiased option for them, better a bias in their favor.

 

I'm not saying this is right, only that I've felt it and been tempted by it. But I have so far successfully found materials that at least fall within a, to me, acceptable level of bias; and often with no bias discernible to me at all.

 

I feel like I'm typing the same things all over again. At any rate, I think we mostly agree.

[nmoira]

 

It doesn't get better Shelly. I know there are probably some reading this thread who are probably thinking the criticisms I'm making are overblown. I'd invite them to read the linked chapter on the Mormons posted above if they want to get a flavor for This Country of Ours

Especially those who've only read Our Island Story. We use OIS through the Tudors, and I find it to be perfectly salvageable. I edit on the fly and occasionally stop and talk about some of the things we've just read. However, to this point in the book the content is largely mythologised (using the term as Bill would) and I'm using it and Scotland's Story for precisely this reason. For me, Marshall falls apart when using it as pure history, especially after about 1600; her works are also more difficult to "salvage" after this point. This Country of Ours and Our Empire Story are even worse in terms of blatant bigotry and racism. I would never argue that we shouldn't limit exposure to materials contemporary to the history we study because of the views people held at the time, but this doesn't apply to Marshall (OIS was published in 1905). And these books simply haven't sufficient literary merit to warrant reading them for their own sake. Edited June 10, 2010 by nmoira
grammar