s/o When homeschooling is not best...

[sahm99]

The earlier thread about deciding when to quit got me thinking:

What do YOU feel a homeschool should "provide" (academically!) in order to be a valid alternative to a brick-and-mortar-school?

When do YOU think pulling the plug is the responsible thing to do?

 

...while I am nowhere close to questioning our ability as parents to provide an adequate school-environment for our children, for the time being, I certainly have those moments, when I question whether this is a reasonable long-term plan...

To be honest, we are surrounded by really nice kids, going to some great schools (for all I know!), and receiving an education that seems rigorous, complete, and respectful of the child...

The teachers around us are some of the most caring, implicated, and motivated people I know...

 

I cannot shake the feeling, that I might be lying to myself about how good (read..."superior":blushing:) a job I am really doing...

I am not thinking about the advantages of homeschooling, as far as the quality of family-life is concerned. What I wonder is, whether some parents (maybe myself included...) don't lull themselves in a feeling of providing a superior education through their homeschooling, that really is detrimental academically...

 

I am looking forward to your thoughts!:001_smile:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would pull the plug if:

 

1. my child were to get below average scores on the SAT tests (our yearly test) two years in a row. (my child has no learning disabilities etc.) I say this because so far, my children have done well on the test with no teaching to the test, no pressure to conform etc. This is an outside verification for me that my kids are meeting grade level benchmarks.

 

Other than that, I am using this forum and TWTM book to choose appropriate curricula that are engaging and age appropriate for my children. I am consciously teaching my kids with a plan that takes them through high school (whether I teach all the way through or not) because I need to make sure that appropriate pre-requisites are taught at the right time. I am also giving them time to explore rabbit trails of information that interests them. Whether or not my children are ahead of the public school kids in any or all subjects, I don't know or really care. I do have confidence that they are learning what they need to know to get a good education. And I have confidence that they love to learn and are happy and healthy.

[Peela]

I think it is a really valid question and there have been discussions here before about how homeschoolers often "rest on their laurels" and are told so often that homeschooling is always suerior academically even if you do very little academic work...that many do very little work and are shocked when their kids DONT do well back in the system.

 

I do not think I do a particularly superior job to one of the local highschools which is a top state highschool. Its quite possible my dd15 would have done very well at school.

I am not sure about ds14. We cant know unless he does end up goign back to school (a possibility) but he has learning issues and I tihnk he would get lost. If not now...we took him out because school wasnt giving him the attention he needed.

 

If it were purely academics, dd might have been better in school. I am particularly feeling inadequate this year. She is really ready for having teachers who are passionate in their areas and bouncing off people- of course, school may not provide that either. Depends on the teachers. She kind of wilts here at home doign so much independent work. However the plan is to send her off to what you might call community college- its technical college here- next year, so we are just getting through this year.

 

Ds is probably best at home. Socially he is doing fine.

 

We homeschool for family closeness and other reasons such as protecting the kids from the jungle of school, and letting them thrive in an environment that caters to them specifically. Academically- I just dont know, and its hard since we cant really know- they have done well on testing but how woudl they do in school? Maybe dd15 woudl have done French - we flopped in that. Maybe ds14 would heve been inspired to be a scientist? Who knows?

 

I tell people hoemschooling is only if you have a nature that is quirky that way. I see kids i really admire- who are not pulled apart by peer pressure like we thought dd would be- who are given help for their learning issues- so I cant know that the kids are better off at home. We live in a good area too. But, its what we do and I dont think they have been disadvantaged as far as further education is concerned, so hopefully they will forgive and recover from homeschooling. I am joking...but my kids are social beings and whether they feel it was the right thing for them in the long run, remains to be seen.

[jld]

The academic part doesn't really bother me, as I taught in public schools that had students who surely were no better than some of the homeschooled students described occasionally here.

 

I am concerned, though, when I hear stories about how some homeschooling parents treat their children. I think children need a lot of kindness, empathy, and warmth from their parents, as well as patience and loving attention. I guess if the parents can't provide that, maybe teachers, librarians, or other school workers could fill in the gaps.

[sahm99]

Thank you for your posts, which are very helpful and enriching!

...I am happy I posted this thread!:)

[Laura Corin]

I am concerned, though, when I hear stories about how some homeschooling parents treat their children. I think children need a lot of kindness, empathy, and warmth from their parents, as well as patience and loving attention. I guess if the parents can't provide that, maybe teachers, librarians, or other school workers could fill in the gaps.

 

I have one friend who completely lacks empathy for her children and treats them with scorn. They are better off at school.

 

Laura

[NanceXToo]

Hm well I don't know, my daughter is only in fourth grade this year, and I've only been homeschooling her for a little over a year to begin with. She was in public school from Kindergarten through most of third grade (I pulled her out at the end of third grade).

 

I DO know that the schools where I live aren't very good if you want to go by those standardized tests they focus so strongly on- the results come out in the paper in July usually, providing the details of how all the area schools scored, and with the exception of one, every district around here across the board- every grade, every subject, "did not meet state average." The school I pulled my daughter out of was the third worst.

 

So something they are doing is just not very effective, and it probably has something to do with the whole standardized test/teaching to the test thing to begin with. It's too stressful, it's not well-rounded enough- and then there were a million other reasons I didn't like her experiences in public school.

 

We love homeschooling. Would I consider public school again years down the road if I felt like I was no longer capable of teaching her (and/or that she wasn't capable of learning on her own)...? I guess so! But for now homeschooling is going really well; and I did have her take a standardized test (for "fun" as far as she was concerned) just to get an idea of where things stood after over a year of my fairly relaxed homeschooling, and she scored just fine. So I have no worries for her or myself at the moment. If that ever changes and I can see that things aren't working or she suddenly starts scoring "below average" or something, then it would be time to reconsider our methods. I do think I'd reconsider our curriculum/method first, and then explore bringing in a tutor, before I'd reconsider sticking her back in those schools though. But as a last resort? If I felt I had to, I would.

[at the beach]

The academic part doesn't really bother me, as I taught in public schools that had students who surely were no better than some of the homeschooled students described occasionally here.

 

I am concerned, though, when I hear stories about how some homeschooling parents treat their children. I think children need a lot of kindness, empathy, and warmth from their parents, as well as patience and loving attention. I guess if the parents can't provide that, maybe teachers, librarians, or other school workers could fill in the gaps.

:iagree: Unfortunately, there may be situations where school is a safe haven for a child. Then, I think homeschooling is not best.

[Jenny in GA]

I guess it depends on what your personal goals are.

 

For example, I have one homeschooling friend who has no problem with her kids never going to college -- they can go if they want, but if they don't to, that's just great too. She could care less how her kids (who are teens) score on standardized tests; in fact, she tells the kids to just "decorate the bubbles like a Christmas tree" if it's a section that they don't know, or just don't feel like taking.

 

Her goal is to raise independent thinkers with good values who don't have to conform to an institutionalized setting.

 

I guess, then, the question could be: Is that cheating one's kids to their education be dictated by a paren't eavant gardeducational goals?

 

For example, will these kids someday be thirty and frustrated because, even though their parents didn't care about college, they, in hindsight, wish they had more of a college-prep education?

 

I guess by the same token, any parent is going to have a bias (empahasis on history, weakness in science, strong focus on memorization, etc), so does that mean it's good or bad for a kid's whole education to be driven by those one or two people's bias? I was recently speaking to a relative who is a public educator, and that was exactly his reason for being against homeschooling.

[Lolly]

My goals for homeschooling are not academic. That isn't why my family homeschools. I do believe not everyone should homeschool. If homeschooling makes the mother unhappy or fretful, if she is constantly truly worried about where her children are academically or frets and changes what books they are using (I mean in an almost obsessive way. A small amount just makes it healthy.) then I think they kids, in many cases, would be better served in ps.

[Renee in NC]

I guess it depends on what your personal goals are.

 

For example, I have one homeschooling friend who has no problem with her kids never going to college -- they can go if they want, but if they don't to, that's just great too. She could care less how her kids (who are teens) score on standardized tests; in fact, she tells the kids to just "decorate the bubbles like a Christmas tree" if it's a section that they don't know, or just don't feel like taking.

 

Her goal is to raise independent thinkers with good values who don't have to conform to an institutionalized setting.

 

I guess, then, the question could be: Is that cheating one's kids to their education be dictated by a paren't eavant gardeducational goals?

 

For example, will these kids someday be thirty and frustrated because, even though their parents didn't care about college, they, in hindsight, wish they had more of a college-prep education?

 

I guess by the same token, any parent is going to have a bias (empahasis on history, weakness in science, strong focus on memorization, etc), so does that mean it's good or bad for a kid's whole education to be driven by those one or two people's bias? I was recently speaking to a relative who is a public educator, and that was exactly his reason for being against homeschooling.

 

That isn't a homeschool issue, though. Plenty of ps kids are not aiming for a college prep education and their parents put no interest in test scores. Or, more importantly, the kid himself (or herself) doesn't aim for college and therefore don't get a college prep education.

 

I know that the push is that everyone needs a college prep education, but the reality of our society is that most jobs do *not* require a college education. If all kids go to college, who is going to ring up your groceries or gas, cut your grass (or the grass in public areas), or fix your toilet?

 

I think it is a disservice to many students that ps focus so much on "college prep" that those students who are not college material (whether it be a lack of aptitude or interest) get left behind.

 

I have an almost 20 year old cousin who got his college prep education (barely) but never had any interest in going to college! His school didn't have vocational classes and he couldn't do dual enrollment because he didn't drive. It would have made more sense for him to take aptitude tests and be counseled for a trade (and then offered training) rather than taking Chemistry and Psychology.

 

ETA: It is *very* easy to go back to college at 30 and get a degree if you want one in this day and age.

[Just Robyn]

Right now I know my kids really are getting a superior education at home. They are all still young (4, 6, 8) and when I compare their reading abilities to those of the public schooled children I know, my kids are way ahead. The other children are very intelligent and have no learning diabilities etc. and their parents confirm that most or all of Kindergarten is spent learning letters. These children started and finished Kindergarten with about the same reading ability.

 

I do have concerns for the future. I am not positive that I will be able to act as teacher in all levels of all subjects. I am hoping I won't hit anything that seems just beyond me until they are old enough to take classes at a community college, or possibly dual enroll at a high school for the purposes of taking a particular class there.

 

I also have socialization concerns. If I don't see my children building strong friendships by high school because they don't know enough people well enough, then I will probably put them in public school. My children currently have "playmates", but I wouldn't call any of them really close friends. At some point that needs to change.

[Stacy in NJ]

When folks don't get any meaningful academic work done, when their children are watching t.v. or playing on the computer for hours a day, when the home is in disorder, when the parent isn't emotionally or physically able to really engage with the child, they should look for outside help. When this type of situation persists for more than a few days or weeks, but is the daily situation for months and years, they should call it quits.

 

What meaningful academic work is is incredibly subjective, but most of us know it when we see it.

 

If an average 10 yo isn't able to read, write a complete sentence, and understand basic math, then they're not receiving an adequate education, imo.

[Gratia271]

I guess, then, the question could be: Is that cheating one's kids to their education be dictated by a paren't eavant gardeducational goals? For example, will these kids someday be thirty and frustrated because, even though their parents didn't care about college, they, in hindsight, wish they had more of a college-prep education?I guess by the same token, any parent is going to have a bias (empahasis on history, weakness in science, strong focus on memorization, etc), so does that mean it's good or bad for a kid's whole education to be driven by those one or two people's bias? I was recently speaking to a relative who is a public educator, and that was exactly his reason for being against homeschooling.

 

What about the experimental goals and approaches implemented in the traditional school classroom? When my brother attended school, they were "trying" the open classroom concept... long since abandoned, at least in our state. Numerous novel approaches have been attempted in the school classrooms, sometimes in the most elite schools. As per education being driven by one or two people's bias, what about the bias inherent in the educational system at large? Bias is everywhere. People who value someone's education are honest about bias, which is inherent in everything. It is the process of acknowledging the bias, analyzing it, and making one's own decision.

[Cinder]

When do YOU think pulling the plug is the responsible thing to do?

 

When hs negatively affects our relationship with our dc.

 

We pulled the plug this year for ds1--he's at a small private school for 9th and will probably continue there. Homeschooling him had become an adversarial affair. He felt like we were against him--we got a lot of resistance and bad attitude. Now that he's in school, he's more willing to do the work and more willing to ask us for help. His attitude has improved. Now we're on "his side." Our relationship has improved, too.

 

Dh and I struggled with this decision for a long time, but now we can see that the change has been good for all of us.

 

Cinder

[Tullia]

The earlier thread about deciding when to quit got me thinking:

What do YOU feel a homeschool should "provide" (academically!) in order to be a valid alternative to a brick-and-mortar-school?

When do YOU think pulling the plug is the responsible thing to do?

 

You may get different answers, but at a minimum I would want to be able to provide an education at home that would not hinder my son's chances at being accepted to and doing well in a competitive college/university. If they opt for a different path, then a sound academic program in high school won't have hurt them in any way. That said, my ds opted to begin at CC and we're delighted that he's being challenged. He did not chose CC because he had no other options, but because it was the best course for him (some non-academic issues were in play in his situation). If home schooling is hurting your relationship with your children and/or your spouse and the issues can't be resolved with fairly routine stuff like tweaking planning & implementation or improving time management then pulling the plug might be in order.

 

...while I am nowhere close to questioning our ability as parents to provide an adequate school-environment for our children, for the time being, I certainly have those moments, when I question whether this is a reasonable long-term plan...

 

It sounds to me as if you're being realistic. Homeschooling through high school is a viable, satisfying choice. It's also a lot of hard work with more urgency about record-keeping than we were used to. (NM is a low-regulation hs state.)

 

To be honest, we are surrounded by really nice kids, going to some great schools (for all I know!), and receiving an education that seems rigorous, complete, and respectful of the child...

The teachers around us are some of the most caring, implicated, and motivated people I know...

 

The fact that you understand that the above is true probably means that you're NOT deceiving yourself :D. There are no perfect choices in education. Any choice you make will have benefits, but there will be potential negatives that you'll need to be aware of. Sometimes it really annoys my son but I like to do a cost/benefit analysis any time I'm faced with an important decision.

 

I cannot shake the feeling, that I might be lying to myself about how good (read..."superior":blushing:) a job I am really doing...

I am not thinking about the advantages of homeschooling, as far as the quality of family-life is concerned. What I wonder is, whether some parents (maybe myself included...) don't lull themselves in a feeling of providing a superior education through their homeschooling, that really is detrimental academically...

 

I have known the sort of folks you describe and that would include a few home school, public school, and private school parents; people who are lying to self seldom admit to doubts either in person or by writing on a public forum. I used standardized testing results for my own accountabilty. For example, in the high school years ACT offers a score analysis that is really helpful in showing how your curriculum measures up.

 

I am looking forward to your thoughts!:001_smile:

 

Here are some of the things I learned to pay attention to over the years. BTW, my one and only student graduated last year and is finishing the last of his second semester finals this morning.

 

1. Is this about teaching the dc what they need, or about me dealing with my own issues or living through my children? (BTW, there's no harm in your enjoying giving your children something academically that you didn't have so long as it's more about them than you, if you kwim.)

 

2. Are we keeping a balance between checking off subjects for a transcript and true education.(definitions of true education will vary, of course;))

 

3. Am I willing/able to provide consistent face-to-face instruction and mentoring in basic skills for language arts (including a foreign language) and math at a college prep level? (assuming of course that this is a realistic goal for your dc) If that's not doable, then you need to consider outsourcing as part of your homeschool or another alternative. If you expect your dc to be competitive with regard to admissions and scholarships, you cannot let skills slide by. Older, highly motivated students can do quite a bit on their own in content areas, but even so there is a huge difference between reading, say The Prince, and answering a few study guide questions and doing the same plus discussion of the material in the context of other subjects and writing essays comparing or defining some aspect of the reading.

 

4. Can our family do all the above and still cultivate the outside activities which will provide opportunities to flesh out the academics on a transcript with things like community service, voluntary organizations, and other extra-curricular activities? The big S[ocialization] debate is largely rubbish for the vast majority of families during the elementary/early middle school years. However, I do think that the potential for social isolation IS a factor that you'll need to be aware of. High school students need to work hard on academics, but they need a "carrot" in the form of satisfying extracurricular work and opportunities to meet like minded peers.

 

5. How much of your life are you prepared to devote to this? If you continue long-term will you have employment obligations or younger children? Realistically speaking, doing this long-term for a high school student will be at least equivalent to a half-time job for you.

 

Now that I've typed all the above, consider this. I do know homeschool families who take a far different approach and succeed. There are highly motivated teens who are capable of taking the lead in their education. Yours might me among them. However, it's my observation that most high school students require a lot of mentoring because just as academics get more serious they are dealing with hormones and starting to develop a sense of self. My son wanted to be home schooled, and I think it was worth the effort.

 

One more note about educational philosophy. One of the reasons I was drawn to a classical education is that I agree with Charlotte Mason that a liberal education ought to be available to all; that it's for plumbers, carpenters, and mechanics as well as college professors, engineers, doctors, and lawyers. Also, I agree with those who say that it's not primarily about getting into a good college or making a lot of money. It's about having a satisfying, productive, useful life. It just so happens that pursuing these ideals provides as part of the package things such as good scores on the PSAT, SAT and ACT. IOW, I used test scores as a validation acceptable to folks who couldn't be expected to know anything about us personally. For us, the scores were never an end in themselves and test prep (except for math because ds was out of sequence) was mostly minor work on test-taking skills.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Martha in NM
added thought

[AuntPol]

When folks don't get any meaningful academic work done, when their children are watching t.v. or playing on the computer for hours a day, when the home is in disorder, when the parent isn't emotionally or physically able to really engage with the child, they should look for outside help. When this type of situation persists for more than a few days or weeks, but is the daily situation for months and years, they should call it quits.

 

What meaningful academic work is is incredibly subjective, but most of us know it when we see it.

 

If an average 10 yo isn't able to read, write a complete sentence, and understand basic math, then they're not receiving an adequate education, imo.

:iagree:

 

 

I had my kids in public school (K-4 for dd and K-2 for ds) so I do have something to compare with at least through this year. I have served on the middle school curriculum committees, have an aunt and SIL that are middle school teachers, and enough friends with kids in PS to compare there. I have researched the curriculums of the top elite prep schools in the country, aligned each curriculum with state and "national" standards to double check myself, and feel that I am doing a reasonable job.

 

My kids score well on their tests, have shown major improvement in all areas (even feel are active in the community, and even all my anti-homeschooling friends feel they are doing better socially. We are closer as a family unit than we were before homeschooling. Even the marital relationship apart from the kids has strengthened tremendously due to homeschooling.

 

On the otherhand, there are some families in my co-op that I worry about. There are very few that I think are doing better than the school academically but most are on par but some are just clueless academically. The social is worse for many of these kids too. However, the area that really gets me though is attitude. More than a few homeschoolers (in my religious co-op-only one unschooling family) have no self-discipline, no respect for anyone, no organizational abilities what so ever and a false sense of intellectual superiority. The latter seems to be worse in the families that I am most concerned about academically.

[Bee]

My long term goal in hsing my children is to prepare them for work they will be doing in college. I went to both a community college and a 4 year state college. I feel ps prepared me well for community college. I feel I was not prepared academically for the type of work required in the state college. I can tailor my hsed child's education to prepare her for college. I have absolutely no faith that ps will adequately prepare younger dd for college. I hope it will if she decides to stay in school for the next 9 years. Right now she chooses to go to school. If we ever decide that it isn't working we will have her come back to hsing.

 

However, if I were mentally or physically unable to hs my children I'd send them both to school. It's not ideal but it's...ok. I know older dd would be unhappy in school. She has no desire to go to ps.

[Stacy in NJ]

What a lovely post Martha. Thank you for sharing.

[Mrs Mungo]

One more note about educational philosophy. One of the reasons I was drawn to a classical education is that I agree with Charlotte Mason that a liberal education ought to be available to all; that it's for plumbers, carpenters, and mechanics as well as college professors, engineers, doctors, and lawyers. Also, I agree with those who say that it's not primarily about getting into a good college or making a lot of money. It's about having a satisfying, productive, useful life. It just so happens that pursuing these ideals provides as part of the package things such as good scores on the PSAT, SAT and ACT. IOW, I used test scores as a validation acceptable to folks who couldn't be expected to know anything about us personally. For us, the scores were never an end in themselves and test prep (except for math because ds was out of sequence) was mostly minor work on test-taking skills.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I know some highly educated people who work in trade. Their knowledge helps them be better citizens, better businesspeople, better leaders in their church and so forth.

[Sue G in PA]

After sending my 3 oldest back to ps this past year, my mind was set at ease re: hs vs. ps academics. My children are, by far, getting a better education academically at home. I don't mean to sound arrogant. It is just that I have now seen, first-hand, what is being taught (or not being taught) in the ps around here. All 3 of my children were advanced in ALL subjects, even writing which was the subject I feared we were not teaching well. I would rather my children be educated at home and take Comm. Clge. classes in high school if need be (say for lab sciences and such).

 

There is, however, more to it than academics. My health was not good for the past few years and I simply could not handle teaching all 6 children while keeping after a toddler and keeping a respectable home. I HAD to put the 3 oldest in ps at least for this year. It would have been detrimental to keep them at home...for all concerned. Now, I am in a different place mentally and able to bring them back home next year, praise God! To us, homeschooling is so much more than just academics. I want my children to grow in their faith, learn practical skills not taught in a ps (keeping a home for my dd13 and dd4, for example). I also want for my dh and I to be the primary influence in their young lives and give them a firm foundation before sending them out into the world.

[Hedgehogs4]

I personally cannot see me ever pulling the plug on hsing for us because as a pp said, my reasons are not merely academic. my primary reason for hsing is that my children be bonded to family rather than peers, and that they be trained in our faith. secondary to that i am careful to provide them with the best possible education, to the extent that i am able. if my children are not the smartest, that doesn't bother me. if my children love the Lord and walk in his ways, i don't care if they end up bus drivers or hairstylists or sweep the floor at a grocery store--my job was done well...though i really doubt that will be the outcome, but if it is, i have to be okay with that.

[Tullia]

What a lovely post Martha. Thank you for sharing.

 

Thank you for your kind words Stacy!

[Tullia]

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I know some highly educated people who work in trade. Their knowledge helps them be better citizens, better businesspeople, better leaders in their church and so forth.

 

Hello Mrs. Mungo,

 

In always enjoy reading your posts and think of you as an extremely thoughtful person so I'm flattered that you agree. BTW, I'm a not so great typist and sometimes insert an inappropriate apostrophe into "its"...when I catch it I always think of the tagline you use here and smile.

 

Regards,

Martha