What's the best way to get a 5-year old to memorize math tables

[crazyforlatin]

My daughter has memorized the multiplication table after she learned the concept behind it. She knows how to add and subtract, but uses her fingers. How do I go about having her memorize the addition and subtraction tables? Practice? Math family flashcards? We started with Singapore Math 1, but then I realized after having her learn addition and subtraction, she should learn multiplication since it's related to addition, so we've stopped using Singapore. We used Kumon for practice. I'm planning to have her work on division since it's related to multiplication and will be using Kumon. However, the thought of having her memorize 3 more math tables is daunting. Also, what's a good book to use to teach division? I heard that Saxon Math provides math strategies. If someone has used Saxon, please let me know whether it's Saxon Math 1 or 2 that does this. Please share your experience or any advice.

[nmoira]

I'm not sure I understand. Your daughter has learned her multiplication tables, but not addition and subtraction facts within 20? And you're concerned about division because... ? I'd take a step back from memorizing math facts and follow a program more or less as written (Singapore is excellent, but there are others) to get a progression of concepts, and worry about mastery of facts when the time is appropriate within the program.

 

Singapore does provide strategies for learning math facts, but not much opportunity for drill/practice. This is by design, as some students will need more practice than others. Were you using the Home Instructor's Guide? I'd recommend playing board or card games that include addition and subtraction; if you want something structured, Right Start Card games are a good addition to any math program. Multiplication facts are not expected to be learned in Singapore until Years 2 and 3, although multiplication is introduced conceptually in Year 1. Division facts are introduced at the same time.

Edited April 23, 2010 by nmoira
clarification

[2smartones]

I know exactly what you're talking about. Multiplication is easier to learn, and it's not at all like learning add/subt tables. My oldest knew multiplication at 3 but didn't learn addition facts until 5. What worked for us was Rod & Staff. Yes, it's a very slow curriculum with tons and tons of practice/review, but it worked great getting over the hump. Actually, I think someone online was the one who suggested I try it in the first place. Don't remember who it was or which forum it was. I'd love to thank them!

[cillakat]

My daughter has memorized the multiplication table after she learned the concept behind it. She knows how to add and subtract, but uses her fingers. How do I go about having her memorize the addition and subtraction tables? Practice?

 

The math games set from right start math. *wow*. after four years, I can still say this is one of the best investments around.

 

It has a few fun activities for *really* getting the 5+(1 through 9) facts, the x+x=10 facts and the facts where you're starting with the number, then figuring what+5= that number (beginning of subtraction).

 

My dd is dyslexic and seriously struggled with learning math facts. This was incredibly effective and matches up with the kind of thinking taught in singapore math.

 

Later for multiplication - which was a struggle as well - we ended up using _Memorize in Minutes: The Times Tables_

 

K

[EKS]

I'd take a step back from memorizing math facts and follow a program more or less as written (Singapore is excellent, but there are others) to get a progression of concepts, and worry about mastery of facts when the time is appropriate within the program.

 

 

 

:iagree:

[babysparkler]

The math games set from right start math. *wow*. after four years, I can still say this is one of the best investments around.

K

 

:iagree:

[Tracy]

If your dd learned multiplication tables on her own, she will do the same with addition and subtraction as she uses them and sees the patterns. I would find ways to give her fun practice with basic math. But if you still really want to go for the memorization, WTM recommends a set of CDs that put the math facts to music. I haven't heard them, so I can't comment on their quality, but I have considered them for my dd5, who really learns well with music. I think I also saw another set of similar CDs in Rainbow Resource.

 

Tracy

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

Unless your child is extremely gifted there is no reason for all the math facts to be memorized at 5 years of age.

 

Math builds. Work on addition first, then subtraction, then multiplication, then divison. Memorizing the times tables does not mean she understands mulitplication. One needs to understand addition first.

 

If you work steady going over some facts daily, then all the facts will be memorized by the 4th grade..... what is that, 9 years old?

[fractalgal]

My daughter has memorized the multiplication table after she learned the concept behind it. She knows how to add and subtract, but uses her fingers. How do I go about having her memorize the addition and subtraction tables? Practice? Math family flashcards? We started with Singapore Math 1, but then I realized after having her learn addition and subtraction, she should learn multiplication since it's related to addition, so we've stopped using Singapore. We used Kumon for practice. I'm planning to have her work on division since it's related to multiplication and will be using Kumon. However, the thought of having her memorize 3 more math tables is daunting. Also, what's a good book to use to teach division? I heard that Saxon Math provides math strategies. If someone has used Saxon, please let me know whether it's Saxon Math 1 or 2 that does this. Please share your experience or any advice.

 

I think it is important to understand the concept before learning the addition, subtraction, multiplication, or division facts. That is how Saxon teaches it.

 

I've used the lower levels of Singapore as well, and Singapore introduces the concepts earlier but doesn't spend a lot of time on the teaching of the math facts. There are likely ideas for that in the HIG.

 

We've used Saxon 1-3. I'm not sure if this is what you mean by math strategies, but this is the order for teaching addition and subtraction facts in Saxon 2:

It starts with adding doubles, next is 0's, adding 2's, doubles+1, adding 10s, adding 9s, then subtracting half a double, subtracting a number from itself, subtracting 1, subtracting 0, subtracting 2s, subtracting 9, etc. It interweaves it all in the lessons so it seems like it takes less effort to learn them. Fortunately, my children have not had an aversion to math fact sheets as some children do. I have never used the flashcards from Saxon, but it does contain them if you want to use them to help reinforce the facts.

 

Be aware though that Saxon math - if followed exactly - will take a long time. What we did was chose which areas we needed to work on and left the rest. I am very happy with the program when used in that way.

 

We also have the Rightstart Math games, and I like the idea of playing games to learn math facts, but unfortunately my kids don't want to play the math games very often. They have other games they want to play when we have game time. So I'd rather not force them to.

 

I hope that helps some.

 

Good luck. :)

[wapiti]

I don't think I could have gotten my kids to memorize math facts if I tried :lol:. They simply picked them up as they went along, some faster than others. At 5 y.o., there really is no rush, no matter how much math acceleration awaits. (I too wonder how one can do multiplication without knowing addition facts.) Besides, there are some kids who are gifted at math who really struggle with anything resembling rote memorization.

 

I'd check out the games mentioned above. I say practice, not memorize.

[crazyforlatin]

I'm going to look into all of your suggestions. My daughter actually does understand addition, which naturally segues into multiplication. She prefers multiplication because she knows it's a faster way to add same numbers. Since we're supposed to memorize our multiplication tables, I put an emphasis on this, but I never even thought of memorizing the addition or subtraction tables; I just thought with practice, she would eventually remember them. However, I've read stories online where older kids and adults still use their fingers to add/subtract, but I prefer it if she would just know the facts. She does remember some math facts like 1s, 2s, 5s, 10s, and other random facts, but rather than arduously memorizing the others, I was hoping for something fun this time.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to offer advice.

[fractalgal]

 

I'd check out the games mentioned above. I say practice, not memorize.

 

But wouldn't playing RS math games to learn math facts simply be another form of memorizing - just in a more fun way?

Edited April 24, 2010 by fractalgal

[Guest]

My daughter also learned multiplication facts before she had her addition and subtraction memorized -- in fact, even before she could accurately count things out with her fingers, like coins or even the candles for her birthday cake (due to fine motor issues). And that's okay. There is nothing actually sacred about the order in which memorization of facts are usually presented in math books. It's logical; it's sequential; it's convenient for how the course of study is usually laid out. But it is not fixed in stone, nor will a child be forever behind or somehow messed up because she approached topics out of textbook order.

 

I would think gifted kids in general would go for higher level kinds of thought and activity over beginning, basic, concrete ones. My daughter was certainly like this. She was doing algebraic equations before she had gone through all the ins and outs of working with fractions; and this worked okay. She was interested in primes and squares and square roots before she could subtract accurately; and this, too, all came out in the wash in the end. I'd make sure to give your daughter opportunities to explore and learn what interests her, while practicing the less riveting basic facts through games: Peggy Kaye's Games For Math has some good ones. There are also plastic tile-like things with addition and subtraction problems written on them that you match to answers in a kind of concentration-type game; I got mine at Lakeshore Learning on-line years ago.

[Crimson Wife]

I second the suggestion for the Right Start math games.

 

Miquon might be a good curriculum for you to look into. It is supposed to be excellent for mathy kids. I keep thinking about it for my DS but frankly, I'm a bit intimidated since I'm not mathy myself.

[s0nicfreak]

But wouldn't playing math games to learn math facts simply be another form of memorizing - just in a more fun way?

No. Memorizing the facts and being able to recite them does not mean you understand WHY they are a fact. Like being able to say 5 + 5 = 10 does not mean the child understands that if he has 5 objects and gets another 5, he will have 10; and without that understanding, he's going to have trouble when he needs to do 55 + 55 or something.

[fractalgal]

No. Memorizing the facts and being able to recite them does not mean you understand WHY they are a fact. Like being able to say 5 + 5 = 10 does not mean the child understands that if he has 5 objects and gets another 5, he will have 10; and without that understanding, he's going to have trouble when he needs to do 55 + 55 or something.

 

But what you are describing sounds more like using manipulatives to teach the math facts. Which RS card game does what you are saying?

Edited April 24, 2010 by fractalgal

[wapiti]

I just thought with practice, she would eventually remember them. However, I've read stories online where older kids and adults still use their fingers to add/subtract, but I prefer it if she would just know the facts. She does remember some math facts like 1s, 2s, 5s, 10s, and other random facts, but rather than arduously memorizing the others, I was hoping for something fun this time.

 

With such an advanced child, it's easy to forget that adding on one's fingers is perfectly developmentally appropriate for a 5 y.o. It doesn't mean she'll be using her fingers as an older kid or adult. She simply needs more practice, and there's nothing wrong with that. My advice is to relax and take a deep breath - there is no rush here. Give her more practice. That doesn't mean you can't forge ahead with interesting stuff like division, but it does mean that some time would be well-spent concnetrating on addition if you can find a way to make it fun and not a chore.

 

My daughter has memorized the multiplication table after she learned the concept behind it. She knows how to add and subtract, but uses her fingers. How do I go about having her memorize the addition and subtraction tables? Practice? Math family flashcards?

The general thinking is that some kids (auditory-sequential learners) are good at rote memorization, e.g., flash cards, but others (visual-spatial learners) learn better through meaning and context, e.g., manipulatives and math games, adding the numbers over and over again. IMO, if your question is practice vs. flash cards, practice is the way to go (based on my experience with my kids who do not learn well by rote, if at all).

 

I'd pay particular attention to subtraction, to mix it up a bit. If she can subtract in her head, she can add in her head.

[wapiti]

But what you are describing sounds more like using manipulatives to teach the math facts. Which card game does what you are saying?

 

I don't know about the card game, but I am trying to distinguish between learning math facts by adding them over and over again (whether it's on fingers, using manipulatives, or a number line located in one's mind) versus rote memorization (e.g. flash cards, chanting, etc.).

 

ETA: if the child were a few years older and still couldn't remember addition facts despite loads of practice, then I'd say that at some point their advancement may be hindered by the slow speed of adding on ones' fingers. But that's not the case here. JMO.

Edited April 23, 2010 by wapiti

[s0nicfreak]

But what you are describing sounds more like using manipulatives to teach the math facts. Which card game does what you are saying?

I'm not familiar with many card games. But yes, children must first learn to use manipulatives in order to understand the facts; that's how children's brains work. Even The Well Trained Mind suggests children learn with manipulatives, and do well with that, before memorizing facts.

[fractalgal]

I don't know about the card game, but I am trying to distinguish between learning math facts by adding them over and over again (whether it's on fingers, using manipulatives, or a number line located in one's mind) versus rote memorization (e.g. flash cards, chanting, etc.).

 

:iagree: I do not advocate just randomly memorizing math facts without understanding what is actually happening, either.

 

I do think it is important to know addition, subtraction, division, and multiplication facts once you understand the concepts behind them. I think it is helpful for when you get to something like long division where you will not want to waste a lot time trying to figure out products.

[fractalgal]

Even The Well Trained Mind suggests children learn with manipulatives, and do well with that, before memorizing facts.

 

:iagree:

[nmoira]

I'm not familiar with many card games. But yes, children must first learn to use manipulatives in order to understand the facts; that's how children's brains work. Even The Well Trained Mind suggests children learn with manipulatives, and do well with that, before memorizing facts.

Not all children learn the same way, and some never go through a manipulatives stage outside of everyday life. There are a number of parents on this board with children who've gone through Singapore, but without using the manipulatives. So not all children "must first learn to use manipulatives," though I'll grant that they're perhaps helpful with most.

 

But back to the OP: I'm not seeing that her child is the one driving the learning of more advanced facts; the OP keeps saying "I thought," "I realized," "I never thought of." To me it sounds very much like it's the OP who is driving the facts learning. I think this is certainly appropriate for 10's bonds and addition/subtraction within 10, but needless (at the stage of math they appear to be) for the learning of multiplication and division facts to be emphasized. If the child is doing the driving, well, that's a different story.

[courtney.byrum]

Definitely just have her learn them through using them at this point. My DS (also 5) never learned his addition/subtraction facts before he moved on to other things. He has them memorized through use now (but does occasionally still 'forget' one here or there).

 

He did stop using his fingers once he started regularly adding things and slowly memorizing them on his own. I'd also say he doesn't have his multiplication facts memorized but given that he is only 5 I don't worry about that. Yes if he had them memorized he could do some of his stuff faster but it isn't worth drilling him at this point.

 

He enjoys Singapore Math and also EPGY and we just do a little bit each day (though lately it's more like a little bit every 2-3 days).

 

Simple games with 2 dice will actually help her learn her facts (up t0 6+6 anyways). Both my kids enjoy Sum Swamp and it's really helped my 4 yr old learn some add/sub facts just by playing.

[crazyforlatin]

 

He enjoys Singapore Math and also EPGY and we just do a little bit each day (though lately it's more like a little bit every 2-3 days).

 

 

 

Thank you for your sharing your experience. By EPGY, do you mean Stanford's program for gifted children? The one that charges about $500 per class per quarter? If it is, please let me know the reasons you went with the program or at least just the advantages which you saw to motivate you to enroll your son with EPGY. What do they teach to kids in grades k-2 to justify the tuition amount that could not be covered with books such as Saxon, Singapore, etc.?

[courtney.byrum]

Thank you for your sharing your experience. By EPGY, do you mean Stanford's program for gifted children? The one that charges about $500 per class per quarter? If it is, please let me know the reasons you went with the program or at least just the advantages which you saw to motivate you to enroll your son with EPGY. What do they teach to kids in grades k-2 to justify the tuition amount that could not be covered with books such as Saxon, Singapore, etc.?

 

We did Stanford's EPGY through their Open Enrollment which is $135 a YEAR (June 1-May 31). He started at K lvl and is now at 3rd grade lvl. While he does some stuff in workbooks, paper, his easel, etc, he really does get most of it out of EPGY.

 

He loves math and is in public school K this year so I wanted something that was fairly easy for him to do after school. It is set to 20 min sessions so it automatically logs him off at 20 mins. Early on when it was super easy he would frequently do a 2nd session as well. From Oct when he started until Dec he did maybe 4 times a week. Since then he does just a few here and there (4-5 times a month probably) since we've been busier and I wanted him to have more time to 'get' some of the new things - his attention is that of a 5 yr olds so it wanders when doing some of it :)

 

http://epgy.stanford.edu/district/ is the website to check it out. melmichigan (I believe that's correct) has a homeschool group for Open Enrollment, we are currently signed up through our school district - a parent gathered enough interest to get a group together.

 

ETA: EPGY also progresses at their pace. DS finished the K stuff in about 6 sessions and took about 16 more sessions to complete the 1st grade stuff. If they get questions wrong they will get more questions similar to that, so it all depends on how well they do how quickly they proceed through. DS makes lots of silly mistakes and it does give 2 chances most of the time, when I know he's having a hard time I'll work with him on paper how to solve similar problems and then he will do them on his own in EPGY.

Edited April 24, 2010 by CourtneyB

[Mothering7]

We use Singapore and one of our favorite ways to learn the facts to 10 is to play a made-up game called "Make 10."

 

It's Go Fish with numbers (we use Skipbo cards) and the goal is to find the pairs that make 10. You could play "Make 11, 12, 13," too.

[fractalgal]

We use Singapore and one of our favorite ways to learn the facts to 10 is to play a made-up game called "Make 10."

 

It's Go Fish with numbers (we use Skipbo cards) and the goal is to find the pairs that make 10. You could play "Make 11, 12, 13," too.

 

That looks like a fun game and also an helpful way to learn math facts.

 

I think both dice games and card games with regular decks of cards which show both the numbers and the amount of hearts, diamonds, spades or clubs would be effective, also. You would be limited with one deck of cards to four groups of a particular number, but you could get more decks of cards to make up for that.

 

Other interesting dice games include Yahtzee and Farkel.

 

I do think playing games to learn math would be useful, I was only concerned that what I have seen of the RS Math games seems more like games for memorizing the math facts verses teaching the concept of what is going on.

[nmoira]

I do think playing games to learn math would be useful, I was only concerned that what I have seen of the RS Math games seems more like games for memorizing the math facts verses teaching the concept of what is going on.

The assumption is that the math program is teaching the concepts and the games give practice until automaticity is reached. However, some of the strategies taught in Right Start are incorporated in the games.

[fractalgal]

The assumption is that the math program is teaching the concepts and the games give practice until automaticity is reached. However, some of the strategies taught in Right Start are incorporated in the games.

 

Thanks for the clarification, Nmoira. I understand what you are saying. I was only responding to a PP's comment about how using the RS Math Games would not be the same as memorizing.

 

I have met Dr. Cotter and have enjoyed discussing math with her. I even bought her RS Geometry set for my daughter last year. I think the RS Math Games are fine to use once a child gets the concept behind the idea. I do think they would be a fun way to automatize the math facts.

[homemomandnild]

Play lots of games with numbers! Roll two or three number cubes (dice) and add quickly. You can make a board that has all the answers on it and see how fast you can "cover up" all the answers that have been rolled or use spinners. Flip two numbered cards over and add. Play how many ways can we make a number? (6 is 1and 5, 2and 4, double 3, zero and 6, etc.)

 

Otherwise,I agree that she's young and facts will come with practice.

[crazyforlatin]

I know this is an old post, but I wanted to give an update in case anyone else out there is in the same situation. Based on the hive's response, I bought the Right Start Math Kit and it has been great! DD5 loves playing them and doesn't even really see it as homework. For example, we've had trouble with most of the addition math facts, but in order to play Memory, one of the games described in the book (part of the kit), she's been able to remember most of the math facts. She's motivated to remember because she wants to win.

 

Also, I have been reading Liping Ma's book (based on other threads in K-8 forum) and it has changed the way I've looked at math. I didn't even think about the importance of place value, but since working on it using Singapore math and Math Mammoth (I've skipped around the different levels to find place value problems), DD has had a much easier time working out large number problems. Also, switching from our teen numbers to the Asian system (e.g. ten-one, ten-nine) has been very helpful.

[Dmmetler]

You might want to see if she can use them. My DD is fully capable of keeping a mental running addition total of her tickets at the arcade, mentally adding 3 digit plus 2 digit numbers, but if you ask her what 7+3 is (it's a 10 number bond, for crying out loud! And we do Singapore!!! With C-rods!!!!) she'll stall and hem and haw over it.

 

I've decided to let it go a bit, provide lots of ways for her to use them, and not to worry about those single digit facts right now, since she IS 5.

 

My DD memorized her multiplication facts early, but I attribute that to Schoohouse Rock, since she loves the DVD. She's very excited now that we're starting "times" for real in 1B.

[Dinsfamily]

You might want to see if she can use them. My DD is fully capable of keeping a mental running addition total of her tickets at the arcade, mentally adding 3 digit plus 2 digit numbers, but if you ask her what 7+3 is (it's a 10 number bond, for crying out loud! And we do Singapore!!! With C-rods!!!!) she'll stall and hem and haw over it.

 

I've decided to let it go a bit, provide lots of ways for her to use them, and not to worry about those single digit facts right now, since she IS 5.

 

 

I've found that my ds does this too. I was worried about starting subtraction with renaming in 2A because he's so slow with his subtraction facts. It'll take him several seconds to tell me what 10-3 is (and he's known his 10 bonds for awhile). But when we started the unit, I found that he does the problems really quickly and doesn't have any trouble with the subtraction. I think the info is in there and comes out easier if he doesn't overthink it. Based on some posts by Spycar, I've decided to let formal memorization of his addition/subtraction facts for now especially since he can do the problems easily. Since we are into real multiplication(2s and 3s) in 2A, we're going to focus on multiplication tables. He already knows those two, but I'll start a routine of practicing them on his Flashmaster. He just became infatuated with division so he's been working on that lately.

[TracyP]

I know this is an old post, but I wanted to give an update in case anyone else out there is in the same situation. Based on the hive's response, I bought the Right Start Math Kit and it has been great! DD5 loves playing them and doesn't even really see it as homework. For example, we've had trouble with most of the addition math facts, but in order to play Memory, one of the games described in the book (part of the kit), she's been able to remember most of the math facts. She's motivated to remember because she wants to win.

 

Also, I have been reading Liping Ma's book (based on other threads in K-8 forum) and it has changed the way I've looked at math. I didn't even think about the importance of place value, but since working on it using Singapore math and Math Mammoth (I've skipped around the different levels to find place value problems), DD has had a much easier time working out large number problems. Also, switching from our teen numbers to the Asian system (e.g. ten-one, ten-nine) has been very helpful.

 

Congrats.:001_smile:

 

Did you buy just the RS games or the whole RS level? If you just bought the games, is it safe to say you think they are worth the steep (IMO) price?

[lisaj]

Hi! I'm brand new here, but I'm another big advocate of Rightstart. I think it is exceptional for highly gifted children because it teaches the logic behind mathematics and emphasizes mental math, vs. the "standard" programs that simply teach how to answer problems.

 

My (5 year old) son studied RS B and is now halfway through C. The teaching is very thorough, and by using different types of manipulatives (abacus, place value cards w/ numbers and pictures, etc), it is wonderful for visual learners. You can skip through the extra practice if your child has the concept down quicker, or spend time on games for reinforced learning.

 

At first I wasn't sure because it is a different way of learning that regular textbooks, and it requires one-on-one time with your child through every lesson. However, when we watched our son learn to quickly add 3 digit numbers (including carrying) in his head without paper, I was hooked.

 

The only caveat for some is that it teaches on a much different schedule than "standards" textbooks. B (1st grade, but MUCH better than other 1st grade materials) spends most of the level on multi-digit mental addition, plus there is a lot of higher-level geometry thrown in. C covers Roman Numerals and then really starts emphasizing subtraction and multiplication at the same time. I supplemented with California Math Gr 2 (what our public schools use) when we had a day where we couldn't do RS lessons, and it was much different. A few weeks ago, he took a standards placement test and scored in the top 1% amongst 2nd graders in ncp, but that was only because of the CalMath supplement, which teaches to standards. If he had only been doing RS, he wouldn't have done nearly so well because basic multip., subtraction-with-borrowing, etc aren't covered until C or higher. Our certified teacher told me that RS students do less well on standards for the first year or 2, then leapfrog over other students by 4th grade levels. If you're not standards driven, I think it's an amazing program.

 

To answer the "memorization" question that started this post, I think multiplication is best learned through skip-counting. I tried to introduce the cutesy tapes to my son, and he asked me why he couldn't just simply memorize the facts. (He's so boring! LOL) Practicing skip-counting really helped him get them down. I have to agree, though, that starting with addition memorization is really important, though. RS is great for that.

[crazyforlatin]

Did you buy just the RS games or the whole RS level? If you just bought the games, is it safe to say you think they are worth the steep (IMO) price?

 

I bought only the Right Start Game Kit that is listed on Rainbow Resource for $50. It is expensive, and I did have to put a lot of thought into it. After investing in other math programs (unfortunately, I like almost every math book I see, like Miquon, Singapore, Math Mammoth), I couldn't afford to buy the entire RS level. Reading through threads on the K-8 forum, my impression is that parents really love the RS Kit and they recommend it highly even as a supplement to other programs.

 

We just started to play as a family, so it's been fun and educational for DD. Maybe there are other math games out there that serve these purposes and that are less expensive, but I haven't had the time to do the research.

 

To me $50 is worth it in the long-run if DD can conceptually understand math through playing games (of course, she still has to do workbook math). I hope I got this point correct since that's the impression I got from other threads.

[TracyP]

I bought only the Right Start Game Kit that is listed on Rainbow Resource for $50. It is expensive, and I did have to put a lot of thought into it. After investing in other math programs (unfortunately, I like almost every math book I see, like Miquon, Singapore, Math Mammoth), I couldn't afford to buy the entire RS level. Reading through threads on the K-8 forum, my impression is that parents really love the RS Kit and they recommend it highly even as a supplement to other programs.

 

We just started to play as a family, so it's been fun and educational for DD. Maybe there are other math games out there that serve these purposes and that are less expensive, but I haven't had the time to do the research.

 

To me $50 is worth it in the long-run if DD can conceptually understand math through playing games (of course, she still has to do workbook math). I hope I got this point correct since that's the impression I got from other threads.

 

Yeah, I am starting to think I have a math addiction.:lol: There are just too many programs that look too good. How is a person to narrow it down? RS math games is one I keep coming back to so I may just have to give it a try. THANKS!

[crazyforlatin]

In my original post I also asked how to get my child to memorize the division table. Well, I quickly found out (I don't even know why I didn't see this when I posted my question), that there is no need to do this if she knows her multiplication thoroughly.

[amyinva]

I have a question for those if you who said to wait to memorize facts until the child understood the concept thoroughly. Doesn't the classical model of education encourage memorizing facts well before the child is ready to ask why?

 

I really am not playing devil's advocate, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the classical model.

[nmoira]

I have a question for those if you who said to wait to memorize facts until the child understood the concept thoroughly. Doesn't the classical model of education encourage memorizing facts well before the child is ready to ask why?

I think both can proceed simultaneously. However, merely knowing math facts does not give the kind of conceptual underpinnings necessary for most kids to succeed at higher maths, or even advanced arithmetic (e.g. ratio & proportion). The question then becomes, when can we start to teach this? Proponents of Asian and Montessori methods would argue, "Quite early." :) I once read a paper in an American education journal that argued most children are developmentally incapable of understanding place value before about fourth grade. That might be a surprise to Asian educators, or even parents of students who have completed Right Start A.

 

The "grammar" of arithmetic is not math facts, but rather an understanding of how (rational) numbers are manipulated using the basic operations and how these operations are interrelated. Math facts themselves are trivial, as they tell the student nothing about how or why numbers work. I do believe it's important to learn them, but without confusing the learning of them with developing an understanding of even arithmetic, and there's no need to rush into it. Now, a program like Right Start or Singapore which gives a student strategies for figuring out facts not yet mastered is something of a different animal, because to do this the numbers are manipulated and grouped in ways that require the student to have a basic understanding of how numbers work (e.g. 7+5=10+2=12).

 

In the case of a very bright student, I would recommend learning more math rather than concentrating on facts. If I were starting again with DD the Elder, I would use MEP through Y6, supplementing with other engaging and challenging materials. But there are a number of other excellent programs out there: Singapore, Miquon, Right Start, Math Mammoth, etc.

[crazyforlatin]

I think both can proceed simultaneously. However, merely knowing math facts does not give the kind of conceptual underpinnings necessary for most kids to succeed at higher maths, or even advanced arithmetic (e.g. ratio & proportion). The question then becomes, when can we start to teach this? Proponents of Asian and Montessori methods would argue, "Quite early." :) I once read a paper in an American education journal that argued most children are developmentally incapable of understanding place value before about fourth grade. That might be a surprise to Asian educators, or even parents of students who have completed Right Start A.

 

The "grammar" of arithmetic is not math facts, but rather an understanding of how (rational) numbers are manipulated using the basic operations and how these operations are interrelated. Math facts themselves are trivial, as they tell the student nothing about how or why numbers work. I do believe it's important to learn them, but without confusing the learning of them with developing an understanding of even arithmetic, and there's no need to rush into it. Now, a program like Right Start or Singapore which gives a student strategies for figuring out facts not yet mastered is something of a different animal, because to do this the numbers are manipulated and grouped in ways that require the student to have a basic understanding of how numbers work (e.g. 7+5=10+2=12).

 

In the case of a very bright student, I would recommend learning more math rather than concentrating on facts. If I were starting again with DD the Elder, I would use MEP through Y6, supplementing with other engaging and challenging materials. But there are a number of other excellent programs out there: Singapore, Miquon, Right Start, Math Mammoth, etc.

 

It's strange but when I went to a well-known parochial school, we were never taught to manipulate or regroup numbers (I was good at plugging in numbers but never gained true understanding), but I can now see (by reading Li Ping Ma's book and threads like yours and Spy Car's) how much better it is to learn this way - to conceptually understand math rather than just learning the facts. However, I still didn't even really understand the phrase "conceptual understanding" which is thrown around a lot in k-8 forum until I read Ma's book. Unfortunately, our math curricula now consists of Singapore, Miquon, Math Mammoth, and MEP (starting tomorrow) (does Right Start Math Games count?); fortunately, DD gets a choice on a daily basis over which one to use. I know, I'm crazy and taking this way overboard, but I honestly like each one and find that they are compatible and that they teach from different angles. I don't think DD and I could face one book every day. A tiny problem with the budget keeps me from trying Right Start Math.

[nmoira]

 

Unfortunately, our math curricula now consists of Singapore, Miquon, Math Mammoth, and MEP (starting tomorrow) (does Right Start Math Games count?); fortunately, DD gets a choice on a daily basis over which one to use. I know, I'm crazy and taking this way overboard, but I honestly like each one and find that they are compatible and that they teach from different angles. I don't think DD and I could face one book every day. A tiny problem with the budget keeps me from trying Right Start Math.

Sounds like the two of you are embarking on quite the adventure. :D

[H0MEFree]

Singing helps. So do colored flashcards.

Dianne Craft has some good materials on math. All incorporating the way a brain works. It's kinda cool!