Since we've all been thinking about unschooling...

[Aubrey]

Dh & I have been having these conversations in the eve over <strike>tea</strike> the stove...sheesh...lemme start over.

 

Dh & I have been talking about the GMA piece & some of the ensuing conversations here. Poor guy--he's speechlessly against unschooling, but I *love* the look on his face when I bring it up as if I'm considering it, & so I keep starting the conversations like that. :biggrinjester: Mean, I know.

 

But as I've come to understand what unschooling is supposed to be, I've come to respect it, & I love dragging him along my philosophical journeys, too. (You can hear the bump-bump-bump...) I don't know what's wrong w/ me tonight. Sorry. I'll stop now.

 

Anyway. I can imagine unschooling being *brilliant* w/ the right family--I suddenly realized tonight, for ex, that that's what I wish my mom had done w/ me. She was a single parent when I was in hs, & that was the only reason I wasn't hs'd. I've been watching my kids, *wishing* I had the time they do to pursue MY interests now, lol. It's like unschooling is at least a flavor of what I was dreaming hs'ing was. Or...a way of describing that flavor. Because really, I think a lot of what's described in WTM for the later yrs *could* be called unschooling.

 

But to my point (at last--sorry)--when I imagine really successful unschooling, I imagine one kid. Maybe two. I can't for the life of me get it to work in my head for more than that. (Not that I *want* to for *my* family, you understand (dh?)) I'm just theoretically curious. I wonder if that's one of the necessary ingredients for success w/ that approach to hs'ing. :bigear:

Edited April 21, 2010 by Aubrey

[LibraryLover]

The only reason I kept coming back here all darn day is because I love a good discssion about educational theory. It's a great topic, and there is a lot of good stuff.

 

I have four children, and while I would not take away from radical unschoolers by identifying myself as a radical unschooler, I have known radical unschoolers with more than one or two children. Dodd, I believe has 3, and there is a woman who was on Dr Phil who has 4 or 5. She does YouTube vids about unschooling. Or she used to. I can't rememebr her name at the moment, but I will search and come back. My memory is that she is less 'cranky' about unschooling than Dodd.

[jld]

I'm not sure why unschooling gets people so emotional. I understand that it's not what everyone wants for their kids, but you don't have any control over what other families do. Even if all kids went to ps, different families are still going to live differently. Some are going to make the kids do the ps homework, and others are going to completely blow it off. You can't regulate everything.

 

Does it come down to control, and judgment? I understand we all judge; every single one of us. We all have different ideas about how to educate kids, how to feed them, clothe them, what time to put them to bed at night, etc. That's just part of the beauty of the spectrum of parenting styles.

 

Maybe part of the problem is that I didn't see the GMA segment (the link wouldn't work for me; I don't know why).

[Tangerine]

and there is a woman who was on Dr Phil who has 4 or 5. She does YouTube vids about unschooling. Or she used to. I can't rememebr her name at the moment, but I will search and come back. My memory is that she is less 'cranky' about unschooling than Dodd.

 

Dayna Martin

[LibraryLover]

Dayna Martin

 

 

Yes. I like her. I also like Dodd, although she is not overly 'likeable' online, i suppose. When I was starting out and reading her (before Dayna ever had kids lol) , I did respect her tenacity. If some RUs want a more 'gentle' spokesperson, they have one in Pat Farenga.

Edited April 21, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Tangerine]

I find her likable too. Dayna, that is. She seems to really enjoy what she does, and her husband makes awesome toys. I remember that her daughter wanted to change her name, so they all started calling her something else, which I thought was great. I enjoyed her blog back when I read it.

[TXMomof4]

I can see how it would work with the primary grades. You get to expose them to lots of things - if they find a rabbit trail they want to follow, everyone goes along for the ride. They may have strong likes and dislikes, but at that age it seems to me to be more about exposure.

 

I am in no way to be considered an unschooler. I am way too much of a control freak for that, but I"ve been astounded at the things my kids learn without me even knowing. Percy Jackson has sparked a Greek obsession with my middle dd. She's learning the Greek alphabet on her own, reading every myth she can get her hands on, making lists of the Greek and Roman gods and trying to find other cultures that have the same gods with different names - and this is just for fun. I downloaded some Euripedes on my kindle and she actually sat and tried to read it. She's 8 for heaven's sake! It wouldn't have crossed my mind to read an ancient Greek text when I was 8!

 

I think the personalities of the kids have a lot to do with it too. I could see unschooling dd2. DD1 - not so much. She isn't motivated to find out things on her own. She's been raised in the same environment as my other kids, but if it isn't laid out for her to do, she isn't doing it and sometimes it's questionable even then. She enjoys projects and such, but never wants to take the initiative to do any of it on her own or to take it further than is absolutely necessary. I'm sure she'll find something she loves (besides iCarly) but she isn't there yet and I'm not going to let her do nothing until she finds it.

 

I don't suppose it would be fair to unschool one child and not the other at this point. When they are older I can see them each going their own direction with me giving guidance rather than instruction.

[Carol in Cal.]

I just can't imagine ever deciding to learn the multiplication tables on my own. It would not have happened.

 

And when you're ignorant of what everyone else knows, you can feel pretty stupid and that can be discouraging.

 

The classic unschooler dilemma of a friend of mine was, her son was in 7th or 8th grade, and he didn't know cursive. He thought he might want to learn, but he was intimidated by it. So he wasn't doing it. And he had decided that he was pretty much incompetent because he couldn't even read it. So he felt bad about himself.

 

She and I were at a homeschooling mom's meeting about language arts, and she spent about 20 minutes agonizing over this. After about 5, I have to admit I was feeling pretty impatient. My view was, either force the issue with him for his own good, or let it go. Don't go all crazy because this is so hard for him, because it's not really that hard, and you know it isn't, so why not share that information with your son, who is clearly not seeing the small size of this problem realistically? I did not say any of that, but wow. 20 minutes in a 90 minute meeting was pretty much a lot, and we had not talked at all about reading acquisition, comprehension, spelling, vocabulary, composition, or editing.

 

So I concluded that I really, really don't think like an unschooler very much.

[joannqn]

In theory, I like the ideal of unschooling, but I think that it would be incredibly difficult to do well. We would be tempted to play on the computer all day. I try, instead, to incorporate as much unschoolish stuff into our day as I can...plenty of play, classes the kids enjoy, field trips, free reading time, crafts, etc.

[Peela]

 

But to my point (at last--sorry)--when I imagine really successful unschooling, I imagine one kid. Maybe two. I can't for the life of me get it to work in my head for more than that. (Not that I *want* to for *my* family, you understand (dh?)) I'm just theoretically curious. I wonder if that's one of the necessary ingredients for success w/ that approach to hs'ing. :bigear:

 

I dont see why it couldnt work for many kids? The older the kids...well, yes, the more taxi-ing, I am finding- but also, the more independent they are. I am starting some part time work and finding it a struggle to keep up with the homeschooling...all year really (since Feb), but now I actually have an excuse :) Dd15 is fine. She is bascally running her own program. I do not think that is the best thing- I would rather be more involved, and we do do daily together time- but at least she is getting an education. Ds14- he bluthers along doing what he thinks he cant get away with not doing, and basically gets a very mediocre education on his own.So- if I had several kids like dd15, I think unschooling might work ok :) And ds14 may have made a good unschooler if he had done it from the beginning and not burned out by 2nd grade.

I thin it depends on your environment and resources, but also very much on the personality of your kids. Some are goign to be go getters, and resource what they need themselves with a little help. Others may read all day and avoid interaction. I dont know. But I woudl have thought an unschooling mother would to some extent get on with her own life, too- as in, follow her own passions, as an example to her kids (and just because thats what unschooling is all about, too). I cant see how unschooling woudl work if one became a slave to one's kid's every whim.

I never saw it as following behind a child and if they mention elephant in a sentence, rushing to the library and borrowing 10 books on elephants.That would be way too hard. .

I too am too much of a control freak to unschool- and I felt that it way too much of an experiment to practice on my kids- the stakes were too high if it failed. But then, I havent been around a lot of unschoolers either, to get a good idea of how it might work. I am attracted to it. And I am handng over control to my kids more and more. But that just feels like parenting teens.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Aubrey,

 

I think you might be right, really. People are all individuals and though unschoolers (though not only them!) seem to believe that their style really is a one-size fits all, it isn't.

 

Okay, so what I'm saying is that the more kids you have, the more likely you'll have a kid who would do better with something else. That still doesn't mean you should change it. But there will be that small percentage who will really flounder with the chosen method (regardless of what we're talking about) and we REALLY should change it.

 

For example, I have coached parents of tough kids. Usually these parents are three things. They almost always are EXTREMELY permissive (at least to a point). They OFTEN are harsh with discipline they do administer (long time outs, spanking, yelling, long lectures, etc). They USUALLY are both (let something go 3 times then get frustrated their kid pushed so much so are harsh with him; counting/warnings/etc). For the average parent of the average kid, this happens a few times anyway. We're not perfect. And a handful of spankings or letting them get away with something isn't that big of a deal. But there are SOME kids who just need BETTER. Letting them get away with something REALLY hurts them. Spanking is a real detriment though this is often the kid that people think need it the most. When people continue with normal or permissive or harsh parenting with these kids, things don't work.

 

I would guess the same is true with schooling. If you have 6 kids, the chances you will have one or more that don't thrive (or is even harmed) with unschooling (or classical or ps or...) raises.

 

When you have kids, you REALLY can't be dogmatic over such things. There just is NOT one right answer for most things in this world (I can only think of one and the majority of the world would disagree with me about that!). I think I was SO blessed with kids so incredibly opposite it isn't funny. And then to have them, in comparison of other children, also be at extremes was probably helpful also. It REALLY helped me see how typical ways of doing things aren't automatically RIGHT just because they are what the average person does. It allowed me to change things up as necessary for my children and my family.

 

Anyway, yes, I think it can work out well for many families with one to three kids. I think the chances something will go off is much more likely when they have more if they are dogmatic in their beliefs and won't meet each child's individual needs.

[Pamela H in Texas]

The classic unschooler dilemma of a friend of mine was, her son was in 7th or 8th grade, and he didn't know cursive. He thought he might want to learn, but he was intimidated by it. So he wasn't doing it. And he had decided that he was pretty much incompetent because he couldn't even read it. So he felt bad about himself.

 

Schools here don't teach cursive so every 7th or 8th grader will be in the same boat soon enough (not sure when this trend started). Of course, that wasn't the point of your post. I think you're right. I would sit down with said kiddo and say, "well, it used to be that ever 2nd or 3rd grader learned it with just several weeks time. They have easy programs that are cheap." And then I would have handed him one.

 

Now I probably wouldn't fuss over whether he completed it or not because I don't think it's that important. The majority of people use a hybrid and schools aren't even teaching it anymore in many places. So I'm not worried about it. He can learn as much as he wishes. But I can't imagine not telling him it's easy and handing him a book he could finish in a week if he were so inclined.

 

Honestly, I thought we were unschoolers, but because of things like this others said we weren't. So I decided I was Kimyschooling and Tyschooling when they were very young. I don't care to fit someone's idea of a philosophy. I care only to meet the needs of MY children.

 

Just BTW, I would not unschool if I had it to do over. We would be relaxed in the early years, but I most certainly would encourage some "schoolishness." I believe in being very relaxed with children, but I also believe in some basics.

Edited April 21, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Carrie12345]

 

Anyway. I can imagine unschooling being *brilliant* w/ the right family--I suddenly realized tonight, for ex, that that's what I wish my mom had done w/ me. She was a single parent when I was in hs, & that was the only reason I wasn't hs'd. I've been watching my kids, *wishing* I had the time they do to pursue MY interests now, lol. It's like unschooling is at least a flavor of what I was dreaming hs'ing was. Or...a way of describing that flavor. Because really, I think a lot of what's described in WTM for the later yrs *could* be called unschooling.

 

But to my point (at last--sorry)--when I imagine really successful unschooling, I imagine one kid. Maybe two. I can't for the life of me get it to work in my head for more than that. (Not that I *want* to for *my* family, you understand (dh?)) I'm just theoretically curious. I wonder if that's one of the necessary ingredients for success w/ that approach to hs'ing. :bigear:

 

Oh, I disagree. We don't unschool here, but one of the things that fascinates me most about our homeschool experience is how much my kids wind up teaching each other and how many interests they... cross-explore, if that makes any sense.

 

Each of my kids has their own favorite topic and activity, and the others are happy to learn and try those things even when it isn't their personal cuppa. While they may not become... "fluent" in their siblings' interests, they definitely come away with a good base and an enjoyable (usually!) experience.

 

If we were to subscribe to the unschooling philosophy, I think the number of kids in my house would be quite beneficial.

[snickelfritz]

But to my point (at last--sorry)--when I imagine really successful unschooling, I imagine one kid. Maybe two. I can't for the life of me get it to work in my head for more than that. (Not that I *want* to for *my* family, you understand (dh?)) I'm just theoretically curious. I wonder if that's one of the necessary ingredients for success w/ that approach to hs'ing.

 

At least, if you concentrate on interests that can be fostered at home. I spend an awful lot of time driving around to outside interests. THOSE types of activities would decrease with the number of children. But, when my kids get to playing creatively TOGETHER---it's synergism, man.

 

With one kid, yes they would theoretically have more time/income completely devoted to their specific interests. But, in my experience, that means they usually (I'm sure there are exceptions, but USUALLY) rely more on parental involvement.

 

 

ETA: Did anyone else think that, if only.....they would limit tv and video games that those kids would have developed more outside interests(referring to the GMA segment?) I know that *my kids* really don't show any signs of self-limiting those items. And this comes from someone who does allow tv and computer games, but finds that they will actually do educational *stuff* on their own, if I just unplug for them.

Edited April 21, 2010 by snickelfritz

[duckens]

I have always thought that unschooling required a specific type of parent AND a specific type of child.

 

The child must be self-motivated and intrigued by a variety of things or a variety of aspects of something.

 

The parent must be "tuned into" the child to guide and mentor the child in their interests.

 

The parent must be conscientious of exposing the child to new ideas (through books, field trips, tv, discussions, etc) to develop these interests (whatever they may be). Kids sitting in a blank room with four walls and no windows are not going to know what the possibilities are!

 

Parents must also be willing to spend money/resources on their children's interests. This may mean gas and a zoo membership. This may mean money for an internet connection or foreign language software. This may mean library fines. And this also means time invested in the child.

 

I have a friend who confirmed this theory of mine through an "unschooling" private school. The kids at the school worked at their own pace throughout the year on whatever they wanted.

 

So you have a situation of the exact same opportunities being offered by the exact same adults and exact same resources to two children from the same family. The daughter of the family learned TONS all year long. The son spend all year on the playground building a fort. That's all he did all day, every day. No reading. No math. No science.

 

The parents decided to find a different education situation (with a little more structure) for their son the following year.

[HRAAB]

I have a dd who I say was radically unschooled from about age 10 on. Of course, some RU's might disagree. She has turned out amazingly well. She had an internal drive to get what she wanted.

 

A thought I've had about unschooling and is the opposite of what most people think about unschooling: I wouldn't unschool academics in the very early years. I want to make sure my child is reading well and has a basic understanding of arithmetic before I let them follow their own lead as these skills are so very foundational to further learning. I might still consider unschooling another child - depending on their motivation and personality.

 

There's so, so much I love about unschooling. Our parenting style is still very similar to unschoolers although we do have some limits or expectations - not many - but important ones to us.

 

I didn't see the segment on GMA and from what I've read, I'm glad I didn't. Unschooling can and does work and produces well rounded and educated adults. I know some.

[KrissiK]

I'm not sure why unschooling gets people so emotional. I understand that it's not what everyone wants for their kids, but you don't have any control over what other families do. Even if all kids went to ps, different families are still going to live differently. Some are going to make the kids do the ps homework, and others are going to completely blow it off. You can't regulate everything.

 

Does it come down to control, and judgment? I understand we all judge; every single one of us. We all have different ideas about how to educate kids, how to feed them, clothe them, what time to put them to bed at night, etc. That's just part of the beauty of the spectrum of parenting styles.

 

Part of what really bugs me about unschoolers and how they are portrayed in the media is that it does affect the rest of us homeschoolers. If they are portrayed as not getting the job done, then all homeschoolers look bad and it's just fodder for the anti-homeschoolers to bring down legislation that makes it more and more difficult for the rest of us.

[Aubrey]

I dont see why it couldnt work for many kids? The older the kids...well, yes, the more taxi-ing, I am finding- but also, the more independent they are. I am starting some part time work and finding it a struggle to keep up with the homeschooling...all year really (since Feb), but now I actually have an excuse :) Dd15 is fine. She is bascally running her own program. I do not think that is the best thing- I would rather be more involved, and we do do daily together time- but at least she is getting an education. Ds14- he bluthers along doing what he thinks he cant get away with not doing, and basically gets a very mediocre education on his own.So- if I had several kids like dd15, I think unschooling might work ok :) And ds14 may have made a good unschooler if he had done it from the beginning and not burned out by 2nd grade.

I thin it depends on your environment and resources, but also very much on the personality of your kids. Some are goign to be go getters, and resource what they need themselves with a little help. Others may read all day and avoid interaction. I dont know. But I woudl have thought an unschooling mother would to some extent get on with her own life, too- as in, follow her own passions, as an example to her kids (and just because thats what unschooling is all about, too). I cant see how unschooling woudl work if one became a slave to one's kid's every whim.

I never saw it as following behind a child and if they mention elephant in a sentence, rushing to the library and borrowing 10 books on elephants.That would be way too hard. .

I too am too much of a control freak to unschool- and I felt that it way too much of an experiment to practice on my kids- the stakes were too high if it failed. But then, I havent been around a lot of unschoolers either, to get a good idea of how it might work. I am attracted to it. And I am handng over control to my kids more and more. But that just feels like parenting teens.

 

That is kind-of how I've imagined it. And the energy & time it would take to *thoughtfully* scatter, etc for 4+ kids...really, I guess I'm thinking when they're little, esp, w/ toddlers in the mix...seems kind-of...impossible.

 

Everyone I've heard of who is *really* us'ing has 1-2 kids. Not that I know a lot of people like that. I guess I just think...part of the success of us'ing depends on in-tune, energetic parents who are curious themselves. Maybe they aren't pushing a child to study certain things, but they're creating a learning-rich environment that's conducive to their kids' exploring *as well as* the parent's own exploring. I imagine the kids' curiosity is piqued *partly* by seeing it in their parents, you know? Like kids who see their parents read are more likely to want to do it themselves.

 

Once they're independent & only need a ride, taht seems a lot easier to facilitate w/ more kids. I do see the "synergy" possibility, but at my house? Leave the 4 to play together on their own, & it's not a disaster or anything, but...it doesn't *sound* like they're learning much. Physics, maybe. :lol:

 

Interesting ideas, guys.

[Rosy]

During December I gave my 4 the choice between formal schooling with limited screen time and no school but no screens either. They chose no school or screens. They did a lot of creative play, but I can't say they really "learned" much. Granted, we only did it for 3 weeks, and it was a nice break, but the idea of "math on demand" doesn't work for me when no one ever demands it.

 

One thing I would like to do is have each kid take a day of the week (I have 4) and decide what we're doing for that day. Then we all do it. Sitting in front of the TV wouldn't be one of their choices. We'd probably have to decide on Sunday what we'd be doing for the week. We'd figure out money/time/logistical constraints. I think it would be super fun and give them a chance to pursue their interests in a way that we don't when we're working through our books. But it makes me tired just thinking about it. That is the closest I could get to unschooling. I would also need them to do their math every morning and know that they're reading something every day.

[snickelfritz]

A thought I've had about unschooling and is the opposite of what most people think about unschooling: I wouldn't unschool academics in the very early years. I want to make sure my child is reading well and has a basic understanding of arithmetic before I let them follow their own lead as these skills are so very foundational to further learning. I might still consider unschooling another child - depending on their motivation and personality.

 

 

Get them readin', writin', and arithmaticin'......and let them go crazy. And leave the tv and computer with certain limitations. And I say that as one who is probably considered to be liberal with electronics. But, 4-6 hours a day? Unless, of course, there is something specific they are actually DOING with it (writing computer code, making graphic art, using PhotoShop, etc....)

[Embassy]

I am an avid unschooler for the preschool years. For the elementary years I have been eclectic. I incorporate unschooling into our educational philosophy. I realize some unschoolers would cringe at that because we are mostly teacher-directed. But there are moments in our schooling where my boys take off on their own interests. During those times I try to sit back, let them explore, and put away our plan for schooling that day. Even though we do structured work, unschooling is still there throughout the rest of our day because education is so much more than the few hours set aside for structured work. I would have loved unschooling as a child. I would have thrived on it, but I had a high level of internal motivation towards learning.

[Mejane]

I love the idea of unschooling, but if I'm honest with myself I know it would never have worked with either of my kids. Daughter would have done nothing but read, which is wonderful, but would never, ever, in a million years have touched a math book. Son would never read. They would both have danced around the house, and put on lots of plays. Now, I can see them both ending up in dance or theater, but they will also have an academic background because of my controlling ways. :)

 

I guess I think it's perfect for some kids, but not so much others.