CLAA users... how's it going?

[Mama Lynx]

I am constantly surprised how people form their opinions based on the few "dislikes" than on hundreds of the "likes" (It seems that these are the same persons going around other forums and saying the same stuff, like it became their mission to discredit the CLAA). Someone asks for an opinion and then has to listen to 10 dissatisfied people, who did not even try this program long enough, or did not make changes to accommodate it, and then are upset and pretend to be experts on something they have no clue about. Wouldn't it help if they would hear those who are succeeding first? Well...these people are not here...they are on the CLAA forum or working hard. Therefore...if you are REALLY interested - go there first.

 

 

 

This argument does your case no good.

 

In the first place, you're implying that there is something wrong in the fact that a poster might have to listen to dissatisfied people when they ask an opinion. Er ... huh?

 

In the second place, the strident voices against CLAA in this discussion have been people who are *very* well versed in both Catholic education, and classical education. They have done their homework, and yes, they certainly do have some expertise. As well, Drew Campbell, who has distanced himself from CLAA, can certainly be considered an expert on the matter. Dismissing the dissenters out of hand as angry folks who are pretending to an expertise they don't have does your argument no good.

 

Certainly, everyone interested should to go the CLAA site itself and look around. I did, which is why we chose to not become involved.

 

I would think that anyone seeking to make an informed decision would both explore the site, and talk to people both satisfied ***and dissatisfied.*** It's important to listen to the basis of both the satisfaction and the dissatisfaction.

[dpfonten1976]

Dr. Drew Campbell and cwlain did at one time admire CLAA. Now they obviously don't. Why? Have they explained their reasons elsewhere? Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

[MariannNOVA]

Dr. Drew Campbell and cwlain did at one time admire CLAA. Now they obviously don't. Why? Have they explained their reasons elsewhere? Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Drew Campbell was explicit on the LCC Yahoo group some months ago.

[clwcain]

The Catechism course is word for word from the Baltimore Catechism.

 

Which is in no way appropriate for children under 4th grade.

 

BC1 was for 4th to 6th graders, BC2 for 6th to 9th graders, and BC3 was for 9th grade and over at which time the child would have been transitioned to a high school catechism program like that of Fr. Laux, available through TAN-St. Benedict.

 

The BC is widely available, free on the Internet, or inexpensively in reprint, including the "fourth book" that was a teacher's manual. Angelus Press, Baronius Press, and TAN-St. Benedict all sell reprints.

 

If a parent wants a solid, pre-Conciliar, catechism program for their grade school aged child (K-8), The Neumann Press reprints the Our Holy Faith series. It, too, is rooted in the BC framework but it is also structured to be age appropriate and cultivate the life of faith in the child in a way that mere rote memorization and recitation of the Q&A from the BC cannot.

 

If you want something post-Conciliar, but still Catholic, I can heartily recommend the Faith & Life series put out by Ignatius Press.

 

Kolbe Academy offers study guides to parents that use the Baltimore Catechism paired with Faith & Life.

 

Seton and others are also rooted in the Baltimore Catechism.

 

So, no, the CLAA is not the only program, nor even the best program, available today offering solid Catholic catechesis.

 

And, with the exception of Faith and Life, I'm pretty sure all the options I've listed will allow parents to catechize their children, regardless of how many they have, for less than whatever the current per-course, per-child, per-year price charged by the CLAA.

[8filltheheart]

 

My concern is with the content of the educational material. I want my children to be educated with a curriculum and method at least similar to the Ratio Studiorum and no other widely available program seems to come close. It's like it has been completely abandoned by these Catholic homeschool programs. Grammar, Dialectic, Rhetoric, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music, Astronomy...what other present-day school actually teaches these as subjects, not stages of development? (I'm not looking for "guidebooks" or "curriculum recommendations") If you know of one, or if know that CLAA's content is wrong, please let me know. I'm just a lowly pharmacist trying get a real education for my children (and myself).

 

In Christ,

 

Donnie

 

This will be last attempt at trying to explain my position b/c I feel like I am just stating the same thing in different ways.

 

I will concede that I know of no other homeschooling provider that offers courses set up per CLAA, though Latin Centered Curriculum most certainly advocates the same philosophy.

 

The question arises as to whether "content of the educational material" as offered by CLAA will lead to the same outcome as Catholic classical education of the past which is what CLAA promotes itself as being able to achieve.

 

CLAA in no real way resembles that former classical education with the exception of the list of books/content b/c the very heart of that education relied upon the interaction of the teacher and the student body. It was absolutely essential. Defending/debating positions is part of what helps students see fallacies in their arguments and builds rhetorical skills, etc.

 

Will CLAA's approach lead to properly formed minds and souls per the true goals of any Catholic classical education? It cannot be stated that it will w/o passage of time and students graduating from that methodology. It is missing the foundation upon which that educational approach is built. That weakness is no different than pointing out the weaknesses in programs such as Kolbe which uses a completely different academic framework trying to pursue the same end.

 

I do not know, nor do I profess to know, if it might not succeed. But, I also know that it is equally incorrect to profess that schools like Kolbe may not achieve the same end via a different path.

 

The only way to truly accomplish the goals of CLAA would be in a classroom setting with direct interaction of expert teachers and students. Anything else is a compromise. It is 2nd best at best.

 

FWIW......I believe homeschooling is an inferior form of education. If true educators existed that were trained not only in their fields but were equally committed to formation of faith, I would send my kids to school. Online classes and my teaching limit all outcomes.

Edited April 11, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[laylamcb]

Dr. Drew Campbell and cwlain did at one time admire CLAA. Now they obviously don't. Why? Have they explained their reasons elsewhere? Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Sigh. If you read this thread, you'll note that (a) Drew has not participated in the thread at all and should therefore not be held accountable for the fact that he hasn't laid out his objections to CLAA here (or anywhere else, so far as I know, beyond the corporal punishment issue, which came up quite some time ago on the LCC Yahoo Groups list) and (b) Chris has already said that he's happy to PM his 10-page treatise on CLAA to anyone who asks him for it. I assume that somewhere in those 10 pages, you'll uncover his objections.

[dpfonten1976]

I did notice Dr. Campbell has not laid out his case against CLAA here, but I was wondering if he had already somewhere else which is why I asked for guidance. I really don't think he should waste his time writing one if he has not, but if he has, I just want to read it.

 

"Chris has already said that he's happy to PM his 10-page treatise on CLAA to anyone who asks him for it." I did ask him to email it to me. He asked me "To whom should I address the email? You are new around here, aren't you?". I replied with my name and explained my relationship to CLAA and William Michael. I also told him "no hard feelings" if he doesn't want to send it to me. Of course, I don't know if he even received my reply or if he read it. He may have even sent it and I just haven't received it yet. Thanks for all your help.

Edited April 11, 2010 by dpfonten1976

[dpfonten1976]

If we assume that online instruction/interaction is inferior to classroom instruction/interaction (unless there are curriculae that are better taught over the internet) and realize that more and more schools/colleges/universities are teaching classes via this online interaction (probably because it's cheaper), then we are in for an even "dumber" society in the future.

Edited April 11, 2010 by dpfonten1976

[dpfonten1976]

Hmm I certainly do not want to equate charity with niceness so I will be frank. I am of the opinion that it is unsavory and ill mannered to come on to a message board paid for and maintained by an owner/author to promote, explain and permit readers of the texts she has written and debate endlessly the merits of a completely different program and its purveyor .

Insofar as the subjects being taught as such rather than mere labels of academic development had you read The Well Trained Mind it would be obvious to you that all these subjects are encouraged as part of the overall program but I digress.

And if spanking is illegal by state law, abortion is not, so I need a better reason not spank than simply "it's illegal" or "legal". The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC #2223) still allows wise use of physical discipline. This is simply what I believe.

So....let me understand that you are suggesting that the way to combat the violence and disregard for natural law with the problem of abortion is with more violence and ignoring your own conscience where the church has not spoken definitively on the issue of corporal punishment ?

 

I apologize to the owner of this forum for trying to find the faults others find in a school that I have my child enrolled in. I got carried away.

 

I am not looking for a book that describes the seven liberal arts as subjects. I was trying to find an actual school/curriculum led by an instructor that actively teaches them as subjects. Only time will tell if instructor-student and student-student interaction via the internet is any good for the development of dialectic and rhetoric. People seem to debate pretty intensely on blogs.

 

I do not base my opinion about what is right or wrong on local, state, federal, etc. laws alone. I believe the Church has spoken definitely about corporal punishment (again CCC# 2223). I guess "the rod" can be interpreted figuratively, but I think if the Church did not want parents to ever use corporal punishment it would have just left that quote from the Bible out of the Catechism.

 

Thank you for being charitable.

[8filltheheart]

If we assume that online instruction/interaction is inferior to classroom instruction/interaction (unless there are curriculae that are better taught over the internet) and realize that more and more schools/colleges/universities are teaching classes via this online interaction (probably because it's cheaper), then we are in for an even "dumber" society in the future.

 

I have used 4 different online schools and have not been satisfied with any of the experiences. Interaction via the internet is limited. Its limitations hinder the most crucial parts of higher levels of education: the ability to progress beyond the lowest levels of cognitive processes. Meaningful debate and Socratic discussions over the internet are not the equal of a classroom experience. Taking the same class with an excellent engaged teacher IRL will give a far superior outcome.

 

The only exception that I have found that works fairly successfully is in math. Because challenging math problems can be assigned and turned in with multiple correct paths to the same answer and be graded, posted, and viewed by all the different students, it works better other subjects. (Also, probably b/c the correct answer is the answer and only the solutions are variable.) Art of Problem Solving has met that challenge so far for our family.....though we also have an excellent math coach, so I'm probably not as easily able to separate the outcomes.

 

FWIW......my POV is not limited to just CLAA. I am a firm advocate of children needing teachers to progress through higher level critical thinking skills. Anyone that has read my posts over the yrs (which I realize you are not one of them) would know that I oppose handing children work to complete independently. Independent work is only appropriate to a certain point. Being challenged and learning to defend your position in a logical cohesive argument is something that can only be achieved through direct interaction.

 

If you have experienced excellent Socratic type discussion IRL and observed good teachers trying to accomplish a similar scenario via internet classes, the lack of equal effectiveness becomes immediately apparent.

 

I have been able to foster the best academic option for my children given the reality that we have. However, I can not help but wonder what my children would have been able to achieve if the Church had not let us down and that Catholic education were what it should be.

Edited April 11, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[forty-two]

I apologize to the owner of this forum for trying to find the faults others find in a school that I have my child enrolled in. I got carried away.

IMO, I don't think you need to apologize for discussing and defending CLAA. SWB (owner) has always been very gracious in allowing wide-ranging discussions, and this one (on another classical education program) is more on-topic than many. Anyway, if the PTB didn't think it was appropriate, they'd lock it or delete it.

[dpfonten1976]

.

Edited April 11, 2010 by dpfonten1976
(I don't know what I'm doing)

[dpfonten1976]

8FillTheHeart,

 

You have wisdom. I sincerely thank you for sharing it...even with someone like me :).

[AveMaria]

Which is in no way appropriate for children under 4th grade.

 

 

I was pointing out that the Catechism lessons were word for word from the Baltimore Catechism, and therefore not faulty. I was not commenting on whether the BC No. 4 used by the CLAA is an appropriate text for a specific age group.

 

As an aside to your recommendations for other options for Catechism, I would add the Living My Religion series.

[AveMaria]

I would agree with you, but let's make sure you are not including the above posters who are basing their statements on actual correspondence with Mr. Michael, actual experience with the classes, actually reading his own words on his own forums*, and actually witnessing the awful discussion on the Yahoo group.

 

* Just a shout out here to SWB who makes these forums a lovely place, even for her detractors.

 

EDITED to ADD: Ave Maria- I see that you joined today and all your posts are on this thread. I think perhaps you likely have more at stake with this discussion than I do so I do apologize if I came across as anti-you. I just bristled at the implication that my fellow posters were basing their statements on hearsay. I have experienced their personal correspondence as well as followed their many posts for years now and did not feel easy about standing by when they were so easily dismissed.

 

happygrrl, I did not take your post to be anti-me:001_smile: I understand and respect your stepping up to bat so to speak for your friends. Yes, I did just join the forum yesterday ( but, and I will date myself here, I was a poster on the old WTM board and actually had a few conversations with SWB and her mother many years ago right after the first edition on TWTM was published. They are both gracious, lovely ladies and provided me with valuable insight on the National Merit paperwork) , and only because of the CLAA discussion. I don't really have a lot at stake in this discussion. I have very recently enrolled children in the CLAA, and even did so after the LCC Yahoo group discussion. So far, I have been pleased. I have read the criticisms of CLAA from several of the posters on this thread before, and I truly appreciate their viewpoint. I think some issues raised are valid and I believe others are not. I originally posted because I believe it is misleading to imply that having canonical approval is required for a Catholic homeschool program. The majority of providers do not have it and one of the reasons many Catholics are homeschooling is because the canonically approved schools in their diocese do NOT teach the Faith.

 

I apologize if I slighted anyone by implying that their criticisms were based on hearsay. I should have clarified that many of those posting here do have direct experience. I was lumping them in with the many remarks I have heard recently from people who have formed an opinion on the CLAA from information that they "heard it from a friend , who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend ... ' OOPS - dating myself again:001_smile:

[clwcain]

The majority of providers do not have it

 

None of them claim to teach, or plan to teach, philosophy and theology both of which do require canonical approval.

 

Further all of the others have ecclesiastical oversight.

 

And none of them start the discussion by trashing the rigor and Catholicity of their competitors.

[clwcain]

I was lumping them in with the many remarks I have heard recently from people who have formed an opinion on the CLAA from information that they "heard it from a friend , who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend ... '

 

When many diverse people with no contact with each other have the same negative experiences of one program and its creator time and again over the course of a year, that isn't hearsay.

 

That they tell their friends about it should come as no surprise. Nor, outside of a courtroom, does such activity invalidate the observations and experiences as evidence for or against something.

 

Where there is smoke, there is fire.

[AveMaria]

None of them claim to teach, or plan to teach, philosophy and theology both of which do require canonical approval.

 

Further all of the others have ecclesiastical oversight.

 

And none of them start the discussion by trashing the rigor and Catholicity of their competitors.

 

Kolbe lists "theology" for all 4 high school years. Kolbe does not advertise canonical approval nor list any priest on its faculty. I am not picking on Kolbe - I use Kolbe for one of my children. I am just pointing out it is not a requirement for a Catholic homeschool provider to have canonical approval.

 

As I pointed out before, the CLAA has a very close working relationship with the Missionaries of the Poor. I am sure you are aware of that, but for some reason it is never mentioned in any critcism of the CLAA. Father Richard Ho Lung is well known in the orthodox, "EWTN Catholic" world for his work with the poor around the world . He has asked William Michael to be directly involved in the teaching of the brothers in formation. Surely Father Ho Lung, educated and formed by the Jesuits, has sense enough to provide some oversight to the formation of his order.

 

As I stated, I agree Mr. Michael's dismissal of other Catholic homeschool programs is not charitable. Even if he disagrees with their method, curriculum, people or programs, he could provide a more humble critique.

 

As far as the hearsay mentioned on the other post, the comments have been "Mr. Michael is mean" and the sample lessons shown for 5 and 7 year olds on the website are unachievable for their children. None of the issues discussed here have been mentioned. While the criticisms of those here have made the internet rounds in a few circles, they weren't what I was referring to in my post.

 

Obviously, William Michael and the CLAA are a divisive issue and while it is valuable and constructive discuss them, I believe the point has come for me to bow out of the conversation. It's becoming a tit for tat and I really should not be spending my time responding. I have too many other duties calling.

Edited April 12, 2010 by AveMaria
typos

[laylamcb]

Obviously, William Michael and the CLAA are a divisive issue and while it is valuable and constructive discuss them, I believe the point has come for me to bow out of the conversation. It's becoming a tit for tat and I really should not be spending my time responding.

 

:001_huh:

 

But...isn't this thread why you joined the board here yesterday?

[8filltheheart]

 

As far as the hearsay mentioned on the other post, the comments have been "Mr. Michael is mean" and the sample lessons shown for 5 and 7 year olds on the website are unachievable for their children.

 

Just to clarify, I am the one that posted about the material for 5 and 7 yr olds being inappropriate. The words "unachievable for [my] children" were never used.

 

I stated that they were not skill level appropriate for the ages and that the Ratio was never meant to be used with 5 yr olds but starting with students ~10 yrs old and older.

 

My comments were not personal. They were professional evaluations based on my own teaching experience and educational/psychology degrees and my knowledge of the Ratio.

[AveMaria]

Just to clarify, I am the one that posted about the material for 5 and 7 yr olds being inappropriate. The words "unachievable for [my] children" were never used.

 

I stated that they were not skill level appropriate for the ages and that the Ratio was never meant to be used with 5 yr olds but starting with students ~10 yrs old and older.

 

My comments were not personal. They were professional evaluations based on my own teaching experience and educational/psychology degrees and my knowledge of the Ratio.

 

I was not referring to your post. I did not even see it though I thought I read through the entire thread. I was referring to real life people I have either seen or talked to by phone. I was referring to no one on this thread when I said hearsay.

 

laylambcb, I joined yesterday because I have a pet peeve about the canon law issue. I find it misleading to the uninformed and I wanted to clarify. And now I'm really done. I'm obviously not communicating clearly here and I'm spending way too much time trying to figure out all the emoticoms.

Best wishes to all :001_smile:

[Elvenfoot]

FWIW...In response to Leila's post about Drew and Mr. Cain's objections--Drew did explain his objections to the program to me in a private email. I asked but was not given permission to pass his comments around, because he preferred to talk to people himself, rather than start a "telephone" type of chain that could muddy his actual words. In answering all my questions--basically, what is wrong here, and is this man qualified to teach my children?--he was very forthright in what he told me. It was not very positive, except for when it came to teaching Latin and Greek. I can say no more about my conversation with him, but anyone here could join the LatinClassicalEd Yahoo group to ask him a question. He is the moderator. And...if anyone here is thinking that he is trying to bring CLAA down to enable him to keep people loyal to LCC, you should know that this would not be a fair assumption. Most of what he told me was objective information.

 

Most of the information I received from Mr. Cain's document was objective, as well. Both men are clearly emotionally opposed to CLAA/Mr. Michael, too, but both gave primarily objective information.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Elvenfoot
clarification

[5kidsforME]

FWIW...In response to Leila's post about Drew and Mr. Cain's objections--Drew did explain his objections to the program to me in a private email. I asked but was not given permission to pass his comments around, because he preferred to talk to people himself, rather than start a "telephone" type of chain that could muddy his actual words. In answering all my questions--basically, what is wrong here, and is this man qualified to teach my children?--he was very forthright in what he told me. It was not very positive, except for when it came to teaching Latin and Greek. I can say no more about my conversation with him, but anyone here could join the LatinClassicalEd Yahoo group to ask him a question. He is the moderator. And...if anyone here is thinking that he is trying to bring CLAA down to enable him to keep people loyal to LCC, you should know that this would not be a fair assumption. Most of what he told me was objective information.

 

Most of the information I received from Mr. Cain's document was objective, as well. Both men are clearly emotionally opposed to CLAA/Mr. Michael, too, but both gave primarily objective information.

 

Very true, and if you knew Dr. Campbell and Mr. Cain you would know that they are neither vengeful nor spiteful men.

[dpfonten1976]

For anyone interested in hearing a response to Mr. Cain's 10-page criticism of CLAA (which I still have not received :001_huh:), William Michael has posted a response on the CLAA Family Forum, and he says will email it to anyone who requests it from him.

[clwcain]

Having read his response I can say it's about what I'd expect to read from him.

 

Yes, I did once say glowing things about CLAA. I recant them. I've spent the last 10 months recanting them in public and in private.

 

So he can threaten and bluster all he likes. I'm not alone in having the experiences I did.

[rookie]

I am afraid to ask but maybe someone who is neither for nor against the CLAA but is well educated can answer my question:

 

Are the lessons academically (factually) correct? I mean, if you know Latin, are the Latin lessons correct in what they teach about Latin and Grammar. If you understand deductive math, are the arithmetic lessons correct? Etc.

 

If the content of the lessons are correct and the method works for some families why is this a problem?

 

I have followed WTM for years and have never expected to share SWB's life or live by her opinions on mine. If she turned out to have very different view than myself, it would not change the value of her work and its influence in my life.

 

I just care about the content. If it is correct and works for my dc that's all I need to know.

 

So, I ask, is the content correct or not. If you share an opinion, please back it up with something so that I can do the research myself and know what I am looking for.

 

Thanks.

[plain jane]

I am afraid to ask but maybe someone who is neither for nor against the CLAA but is well educated can answer my question:

 

Are the lessons academically (factually) correct? I mean, if you know Latin, are the Latin lessons correct in what they teach about Latin and Grammar. If you understand deductive math, are the arithmetic lessons correct? Etc.

 

If the content of the lessons are correct and the method works for some families why is this a problem?

 

I have followed WTM for years and have never expected to share SWB's life or live by her opinions on mine. If she turned out to have very different view than myself, it would not change the value of her work and its influence in my life.

 

I just care about the content. If it is correct and works for my dc that's all I need to know.

 

So, I ask, is the content correct or not. If you share an opinion, please back it up with something so that I can do the research myself and know what I am looking for.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I'd like to know this as well. After doing quite a bit of reading, my head is now spinning :001_huh: and I'm not convinced one way or another as of yet. I think I'm leaning towards not a full enrolment, but perhaps in just their Grammar course for the time being. Maybe I'll start a new thread. :auto:

[happygrrl]

 

I have followed WTM for years and have never expected to share SWB's life or live by her opinions on mine. If she turned out to have very different view than myself, it would not change the value of her work and its influence in my life.

 

 

 

See, that's it! I was informed (in an e-mail from Mr. M) that to continue to any degree with the program one *must* enroll in the catechism class. So yes, Mr. M's opinions and values do come into play. Since I decided that we would not do the Catechism class (various personal reasons for this including not being able to see who was overseeing the classes and therefore interpreting the material) it mattered little the quality of the rest of the program as we would not be allowed to complete it.

 

It was fine with me... it is a private program and the director can do as he wishes. I was thankful he was clear with me before we sank $$ into it.

(hope that was clear- I am sleepy!)

Edited April 13, 2010 by happygrrl

[iwka]

When many diverse people with no contact with each other have the same negative experiences of one program and its creator time and again over the course of a year, that isn't hearsay.

 

 

How many? 15 out of 300?

[MariannNOVA]

I am afraid to ask but maybe someone who is neither for nor against the CLAA but is well educated can answer my question:

 

Are the lessons academically (factually) correct? I mean, if you know Latin, are the Latin lessons correct in what they teach about Latin and Grammar. If you understand deductive math, are the arithmetic lessons correct? Etc.

 

If the content of the lessons are correct and the method works for some families why is this a problem?

 

I have followed WTM for years and have never expected to share SWB's life or live by her opinions on mine. If she turned out to have very different view than myself, it would not change the value of her work and its influence in my life.

 

I just care about the content. If it is correct and works for my dc that's all I need to know.

 

So, I ask, is the content correct or not. If you share an opinion, please back it up with something so that I can do the research myself and know what I am looking for.

 

Thanks.

 

I'd like to know this as well. After doing quite a bit of reading, my head is now spinning :001_huh: and I'm not convinced one way or another as of yet. I think I'm leaning towards not a full enrolment, but perhaps in just their Grammar course for the time being. Maybe I'll start a new thread. :auto:

 

 

My three children are taking Grammar through CLAA. I've been aware of the 'other stuff' going on since right after we enrolled, but we have stayed with the course. The Grammar has been excellent, imo, and I have 15+ yrs experience as a classroom teacher prior to homeschooling. The children are learning scripture verses in Latin, they are memorizing, they are taking dictation in Latin, they are learning prepositions in Latin and that is helping them with their MCTLA. The content is correct, the level of work is fine for my three (who are G&T) - as a former classroom teacher, however, I would guess that there are children who have difficulty 'mastering' the material and scoring 100% on the quizzes and examinations as I see the instruction in Grammar through CLAA as being 'parent-led' or 'student-led.' In Grammar, (and I am unfamiliar with other CLAA courses) one prints out the material, and 'learns' it. It was not until we saw the first Quiz/Exam that we had any idea 'where' we were going with the material (and, I wasn't thrilled with that) but it has been a good learning experience for us. It requires discipline and accountability. We are having a rather 'topsy turvy' school year (many things going on) and I enrolled the kids in Grammar b/c I had already bailed on PL, LC, and wasn't willing to tackle something meatier (GP?) at that late date (December, I think). DD11 has alreaady had three years of Latin in private school, and even she finds Grammar pleasantly challenging. This is the first year of Latin for the twins, and it is an excellent fit for them (3rd grade).

 

It has provided structure where we have needed structure. I don't go to the forums, I don't do anything else with CLAA - I have to keep our passwords written down - that is how infrequently we use them, but for the grammar, I have no problem with it.

 

I was on the Yahoo group and did read the LCC communication when it was going on -- and my curric is more Latin-Centered than anything else as it keeps us focused and on track.

 

That being said, the content, the process, the assessment (quizzes and exams) of the Grammar course are proving to be a positive experience for my children and for me, so we will complete the course. Will I enroll them in another CLAA course? No -- that is not the path we are taking (we are not Catholic - although I was educated in Catholic schools) - but as for the Grammar course, I have no issue with it. HTH

[MSherman]

Jane,

 

I'd like to return to your original question about the experience that folks in the CLAA are having.

 

I am neither pro nor anti CLAA. So, my biases are known, I am pro Christ and pro my family! I have 4 children ages 11-2 at home. I am a lawyer on sabbatical from my law practice of 15 years while I pursue a seminary degree. While doing that I am homeschooling the kids, with the blessing of my dear wife.

 

I am a protestant. This is our first year homeschooling. When I first started down this road, I read WTM and LCC. I decided LCC was going to be easier for us to follow (I appreciated the "much, not many" approach and was worried that in our first year, I did not want to overwhelm my children or myself with various curriculum, courses, etc - though I still nearly did so at the start).

 

When I finally started to make curriculum choices, I was basically going to follow LCC with a couple of additions from WTM. At some point, I noticed Drew Campbell had mentioned the Praeceptor course at the CLAA. That was my first introduction to the CLAA. I checked out the site and the forum and was intrigued.

 

I contacted Drew directly about the Latin program and he recommended we enroll in the CLAA instead of following the recommendations he had made in the LCC. I took his advice, and I am so glad I did.

 

My oldest two daughters (6th grade and 3rd grade) are on Lesson 39 in Grammar I (which is to say they are almost through the course). I am no Latin scholar, but I did have 2 years of Latin in high school, and have reviewed several other Latin texts (including all of the standard recommendations). The CLAA Latin program is remarkably good. T osay we have been pleased would be a huge understatement. I marvel at what my kids are learning. It is very challenging, and Jane, to answer your question, accurate.

 

I like the fact that it uses John 1 in many of the lessons. If you are looking for a secular program, the CLAA is probably not your best choice.

 

But, here is the thing, I thought I had found a fabulous Latin program for my kids, but it turned out to be so much more. We have since enrolled in nearly every course they offer (we have made varying progress through them, as I am prioritizing our time around completing the Grammar 1 course and the other programs we started at the beginning of the year under the LCC and will re-evaluate during this summer).

 

The Chronology and Geography courses are favorites around here. I enjoy the Praepceptor course myself.

 

But, beyond the academic life, there is a community of some of the most loving, Christlike people I've ever come to "virtually" know. There is really an environment there that encourages one another to piety, including daily prayer, the value of simple living and hard work, as well as working along side one another in the mission field.

 

Granted, that is probably not for everyone, but there it is. It has really been a blessing to our protestant home!

 

Are there negatives? Of course. Mr. Michael, under much more demand than was anticipated, agreed to open the courses sooner rather than later so there are typographical errors in several of the lessons and we have come across a few mistakes on the tests. But, those are quickly corrected. I am glad he didn't wait until all of the courses were written and error free before making them publicly available. I view that the same way I view Drew Campbell having an errata section on his website for mistakes in the LCC - as inevitable and expected.

 

Then there is Mr. Michael's harsh tone. Seems like this is the most common objection from the handful of detractors of whom I am aware. Is it true? Yes, sometimes it is. Does it take away from the program? I don't think so. Christ had a harsh tone when he drove out the moneylenders! As someone that has come to appreciate his work, I sometimes wish he didn't come off that way, because I think some are turned off by it, who might otherwise come to appreciate him and his work, if given the chance. Often, it is my opinion, that he comes off that way because of his sometimes sarcastic humor which does not always come across in the online world.

 

That being said, I can tell you that in my personal interactions with him, despite our obvious theological disagreements, he has been EXTREMELY warm, caring, and charitable. In fact, he has been unbelievably generous in a number of ways.

 

I am on a lot of the mailing lists, forums, etc where the CLAA has come up before. It seems to me there are 2 people who are outspoken critics of Mr. Michael and the CLAA (Drew Campbell is not one of them - though he is a critic, he mostly keeps his concerns private, the best I can tell).

 

The funny thing to me is that these two purport to base their opinions on their experience with the CLAA, as insiders, as it were. BUT, neither of them were enrolled in the CLAA once it was officially launched in he fall! Nor, I suspect, did either of their children make any meaningful progress in the courses offered there (they weren't around long enough to do so). So, how can they be informed about the CLAA and what it does? The fact is that the website, the Student Forum, the Stadium, and much of the programs that are integral to the CLAA were not even in place in the form they are now when those two people were enrolled in the CLAA.

 

From my perspective (and I could be wrong), it appears they and Drew parted company with Mr. Michael only after he expressed his views about corporal punishment. Do I practice corporal punishment in the way Mr. Michael said he did? No. Do I think corporal punishment is anti-Biblical? Of course, not.

 

If you disagree with him about that issue and therefore do not want your children in the program, fine. But, at least be honest about your motivations.

 

I have read Mr. Cain's 10 page e-mail critique of the Mr. Michael. It is full of inaccuracies (if I were harsh like Mr. Michael, I might call them lies). But, honestly, I wonder where they come from. Is he talking about the same man that I've been dealing with all year?

 

I've gone on far too long. My point, Jane, is to answer your original question - our family feels blessed that Drew Campbell recommended we pursue our studies with the CLAA. We hope to visit his farm this summer (yes, he does have one) and serve on a missions trip beside him, his children, and many of the other "sheep" that have their children enrolled at the CLAA (for the uninformed that is what one of the critics above has called those of us parents who have our children enrolled in the CLAA - we are sheep that unthinkingly follow Mr. Michael).

 

The academic courses, though not typographically perfect, are rigorous and grammatically correct. But, we now love our study in the CLAA for much more than that.

[Mama Lynx]

How many? 15 out of 300?

 

I don't understand your point here. Is there a certain percentage of complaints that have to be met before the complaints can be valid, or worth listening to?

 

20% ought to be significant enough, if those numbers are accurate.

[cathmom]

This thread is fascinating! Most of the people that do not recommend CLAA are regular posters that I "know" and most of the people who are defending it seem to have joined for the sole purpose of defending it.

 

I read all I needed to know about CLAA when it was first mentioned on this board. I was not at all interested.

 

For those who think corporal punishment is Catholic, I would like to offer this food for thought: http://www.stophitting.com/pdf/10reasons.pdf

[Jennifer in NH]

Jane,

 

I'd like to return to your original question about the experience that folks in the CLAA are having.

 

I am neither pro nor anti CLAA. So, my biases are known, I am pro Christ and pro my family! I have 4 children ages 11-2 at home. I am a lawyer on sabbatical from my law practice of 15 years while I pursue a seminary degree. While doing that I am homeschooling the kids, with the blessing of my dear wife.

 

I am a protestant. This is our first year homeschooling. When I first started down this road, I read WTM and LCC. I decided LCC was going to be easier for us to follow (I appreciated the "much, not many" approach and was worried that in our first year, I did not want to overwhelm my children or myself with various curriculum, courses, etc - though I still nearly did so at the start).

 

When I finally started to make curriculum choices, I was basically going to follow LCC with a couple of additions from WTM. At some point, I noticed Drew Campbell had mentioned the Praeceptor course at the CLAA. That was my first introduction to the CLAA. I checked out the site and the forum and was intrigued.

 

I contacted Drew directly about the Latin program and he recommended we enroll in the CLAA instead of following the recommendations he had made in the LCC. I took his advice, and I am so glad I did.

 

My oldest two daughters (6th grade and 3rd grade) are on Lesson 39 in Grammar I (which is to say they are almost through the course). I am no Latin scholar, but I did have 2 years of Latin in high school, and have reviewed several other Latin texts (including all of the standard recommendations). The CLAA Latin program is remarkably good. T osay we have been pleased would be a huge understatement. I marvel at what my kids are learning. It is very challenging, and Jane, to answer your question, accurate.

 

I like the fact that it uses John 1 in many of the lessons. If you are looking for a secular program, the CLAA is probably not your best choice.

 

But, here is the thing, I thought I had found a fabulous Latin program for my kids, but it turned out to be so much more. We have since enrolled in nearly every course they offer (we have made varying progress through them, as I am prioritizing our time around completing the Grammar 1 course and the other programs we started at the beginning of the year under the LCC and will re-evaluate during this summer).

 

The Chronology and Geography courses are favorites around here. I enjoy the Praepceptor course myself.

 

But, beyond the academic life, there is a community of some of the most loving, Christlike people I've ever come to "virtually" know. There is really an environment there that encourages one another to piety, including daily prayer, the value of simple living and hard work, as well as working along side one another in the mission field.

 

Granted, that is probably not for everyone, but there it is. It has really been a blessing to our protestant home!

 

Are there negatives? Of course. Mr. Michael, under much more demand than was anticipated, agreed to open the courses sooner rather than later so there are typographical errors in several of the lessons and we have come across a few mistakes on the tests. But, those are quickly corrected. I am glad he didn't wait until all of the courses were written and error free before making them publicly available. I view that the same way I view Drew Campbell having an errata section on his website for mistakes in the LCC - as inevitable and expected.

 

Then there is Mr. Michael's harsh tone. Seems like this is the most common objection from the handful of detractors of whom I am aware. Is it true? Yes, sometimes it is. Does it take away from the program? I don't think so. Christ had a harsh tone when he drove out the moneylenders! As someone that has come to appreciate his work, I sometimes wish he didn't come off that way, because I think some are turned off by it, who might otherwise come to appreciate him and his work, if given the chance. Often, it is my opinion, that he comes off that way because of his sometimes sarcastic humor which does not always come across in the online world.

 

That being said, I can tell you that in my personal interactions with him, despite our obvious theological disagreements, he has been EXTREMELY warm, caring, and charitable. In fact, he has been unbelievably generous in a number of ways.

 

I am on a lot of the mailing lists, forums, etc where the CLAA has come up before. It seems to me there are 2 people who are outspoken critics of Mr. Michael and the CLAA (Drew Campbell is not one of them - though he is a critic, he mostly keeps his concerns private, the best I can tell).

 

The funny thing to me is that these two purport to base their opinions on their experience with the CLAA, as insiders, as it were. BUT, neither of them were enrolled in the CLAA once it was officially launched in he fall! Nor, I suspect, did either of their children make any meaningful progress in the courses offered there (they weren't around long enough to do so). So, how can they be informed about the CLAA and what it does? The fact is that the website, the Student Forum, the Stadium, and much of the programs that are integral to the CLAA were not even in place in the form they are now when those two people were enrolled in the CLAA.

 

From my perspective (and I could be wrong), it appears they and Drew parted company with Mr. Michael only after he expressed his views about corporal punishment. Do I practice corporal punishment in the way Mr. Michael said he did? No. Do I think corporal punishment is anti-Biblical? Of course, not.

 

If you disagree with him about that issue and therefore do not want your children in the program, fine. But, at least be honest about your motivations.

 

I have read Mr. Cain's 10 page e-mail critique of the Mr. Michael. It is full of inaccuracies (if I were harsh like Mr. Michael, I might call them lies). But, honestly, I wonder where they come from. Is he talking about the same man that I've been dealing with all year?

 

I've gone on far too long. My point, Jane, is to answer your original question - our family feels blessed that Drew Campbell recommended we pursue our studies with the CLAA. We hope to visit his farm this summer (yes, he does have one) and serve on a missions trip beside him, his children, and many of the other "sheep" that have their children enrolled at the CLAA (for the uninformed that is what one of the critics above has called those of us parents who have our children enrolled in the CLAA - we are sheep that unthinkingly follow Mr. Michael).

 

The academic courses, though not typographically perfect, are rigorous and grammatically correct. But, we now love our study in the CLAA for much more than that.

 

 

It sounds like you could write copy for CLAA. This reads just like a brochure. I would be careful about insinuating that Mr. Cain is a liar, though. I am positive that no one who has read his many posts here and elsewhere would ever conclude that he lies. Just the opposite is true.

I tend to agree with Cathmom that this thread has been interesting but I find the people who disagree with CLAA to be people who I have been communicating with on this board for a long time and about many subjects. I have never found any of them to be any less than extremely helpful. I do find some of the defense of CLAA to be a bit cultish. I love some of the programs I use, but I don't see the need to attack detractors. I too, when looking at new programs, like to hear from people who like it and those who don't.

[MSherman]

Hi Jennifer-

 

I didn't call Mr. Cain a liar. I didn't "attack" the CLAA's detractors. I said I have read his 10 page e-mail and found it to be thoroughly full of inaccuracies. I stand by that statement.

 

That is not to say he hasn't posted other helpful information here. It is to say I disagree with his critique of Mr. Michael based on my personal experience of having my children in the CLAA for this entire school year, which is what I understood the question that started this thread to be seeking (the experience of those parents with kids enrolled in the CLAA).

 

As far as "defending" the CLAA, that was not my intent. I assure you that I do not "write copy" for the CLAA or anyone else for that matter. Rather, as I said, my intent was to respond to the original question that asked about the experience that folks in the CLAA were having. Whether it sounds like a brochure, I don't know. I was simply relating my personal experience, pro and con about a program that I frankly had my own misgivings about initially (based on my not being a Catholic). Happily, as it turns out, my concerns were unfounded.

 

You stated that when you are looking at programs you like to read statements from those that like the program and those that don't. Mine is simply a statement from someone who does like the program.

[Jennifer in NH]

Hi Jennifer-

 

I didn't call Mr. Cain a liar. I didn't "attack" the CLAA's detractors. I said I have read his 10 page e-mail and found it to be thoroughly full of inaccuracies. I stand by that statement.

 

That is not to say he hasn't posted other helpful information here. It is to say I disagree with his critique of Mr. Michael based on my personal experience of having my children in the CLAA for this entire school year, which is what I understood the question that started this thread to be seeking (the experience of those parents with kids enrolled in the CLAA).

 

As far as "defending" the CLAA, that was not my intent. I assure you that I do not "write copy" for the CLAA or anyone else for that matter. Rather, as I said, my intent was to respond to the original question that asked about the experience that folks in the CLAA were having. Whether it sounds like a brochure, I don't know. I was simply relating my personal experience, pro and con about a program that I frankly had my own misgivings about initially (based on my not being a Catholic). Happily, as it turns out, my concerns were unfounded.

 

You stated that when you are looking at programs you like to read statements from those that like the program and those that don't. Mine is simply a statement from someone who does like the program.

 

I am glad you found a program that fits so well with your family. I think your positive experience with CLAA is wonderful, and I have no problem with that part of your post. You obviously really like it, and I am not involved with it. I looked it over last year after Drew and Chris mentioned it, but did not go any further than that. Personally, doing LCC on our own works well for us. The only part of your post I had a real problem was this one,

"The funny thing to me is that these two purport to base their opinions on their experience with the CLAA, as insiders, as it were. BUT, neither of them were enrolled in the CLAA once it was officially launched in he fall! Nor, I suspect, did either of their children make any meaningful progress in the courses offered there (they weren't around long enough to do so). So, how can they be informed about the CLAA and what it does? The fact is that the website, the Student Forum, the Stadium, and much of the programs that are integral to the CLAA were not even in place in the form they are now when those two people were enrolled in the CLAA...

...I have read Mr. Cain's 10 page e-mail critique of the Mr. Michael. It is full of inaccuracies (if I were harsh like Mr. Michael, I might call them lies). But, honestly, I wonder where they come from. Is he talking about the same man that I've been dealing with all year? "

 

I'm not sure how you see that as not calling Mr. Cain a liar. and if the other person you mention is 8filltheheart, she never purprted to have anything to do within CLAA, but I respect her opinion on matters of Catholicism and education in general.

 

again though, it is nice you have found a program that fits your family.

and now I will :auto:

[Mama Lynx]

Hi Jennifer-

 

I didn't call Mr. Cain a liar. I didn't "attack" the CLAA's detractors. I said I have read his 10 page e-mail and found it to be thoroughly full of inaccuracies. I stand by that statement.

 

That is not to say he hasn't posted other helpful information here. It is to say I disagree with his critique of Mr. Michael based on my personal experience of having my children in the CLAA for this entire school year, which is what I understood the question that started this thread to be seeking (the experience of those parents with kids enrolled in the CLAA).

 

As far as "defending" the CLAA, that was not my intent. I assure you that I do not "write copy" for the CLAA or anyone else for that matter. Rather, as I said, my intent was to respond to the original question that asked about the experience that folks in the CLAA were having. Whether it sounds like a brochure, I don't know. I was simply relating my personal experience, pro and con about a program that I frankly had my own misgivings about initially (based on my not being a Catholic). Happily, as it turns out, my concerns were unfounded.

 

You stated that when you are looking at programs you like to read statements from those that like the program and those that don't. Mine is simply a statement from someone who does like the program.

 

You were accused of insinuating that Mr. Cain is a liar. Here is what you said:

 

I have read Mr. Cain's 10 page e-mail critique of the Mr. Michael. It is full of inaccuracies (if I were harsh like Mr. Michael, I might call them lies).

 

That is most definitely insinuating that Mr. Cain lied in his critique. To call it otherwise is disingenuous.

 

You also stated that you are neither for nor against CLAA - again, disingenuous, as the rest of your piece is most definitely, unarguably, pro CLAA. You threw in a few minor cons to look balanced, but your bias, and your purpose, is plain.

 

I'm glad you are happy with your program. Please refrain from the rhetorical sleight of hand. I'm sure you don't need them to make your case?

 

I think that when Jennifer mentioned attacking the detractors, she did not mean you specifically, but this thread as a whole. As soon as negative reviews were posted ... well, one should absolutely defend a program one believes in. But there are certain lines that, once crossed, do start to look a little overdone and cultish. When taken as a whole, the defense of this program looks ... interesting. Especially as a program that is as good as all that will surely stand on its own merits and have nothing to fear from those who had negative experiences. Surely?

[AveMaria]

For anyone interested in hearing a response to Mr. Cain's 10-page criticism of CLAA (which I still have not received :001_huh:), William Michael has posted a response on the CLAA Family Forum, and he says will email it to anyone who requests it from him.

 

William Michael's response can be read on the public part of the CLAA forum; you do not need to register to read it or request it to be sent by email.

 

http://wmchmichael.site.aplus.net/cgi-bin/smf/index.php?topic=1125.0

[MSherman]

a program that is as good as all that will surely stand on its own merits and have nothing to fear from those who had negative experiences. Surely?

 

Agreed.

[forty-two]

But, beyond the academic life, there is a community of some of the most loving, Christlike people I've ever come to "virtually" know. There is really an environment there that encourages one another to piety, including daily prayer, the value of simple living and hard work, as well as working along side one another in the mission field.

 

Granted, that is probably not for everyone, but there it is. It has really been a blessing to our protestant home!

 

How does doing CLAA as a Protestant work out in practice? I mean, its selling point is how it integrates Catholicism into every aspect of education - how do you keep your kids from internalizing Catholic beliefs (since as a Protestant, I assume you disagree with them on some key points - otherwise you wouldn't *be* Protestant ;)). Do you go over all the course material with them, so as to point out differences in belief and explain what you believe? That would negate the independent work aspect, certainly.

 

I mean, I am intrigued by CLAA, and am often tempted to take a course or two myself, but I'd never turn my kids loose on it until they had a very firm grasp of what we believe (we're Lutherans). Otherwise it seems like a recipe for ending up with Catholic kids ;) (not that that would be the end of the world, but if I thought Catholic theology was closer to the truth than Lutheran theology, I wouldn't be Lutheran in the first place - I'd be Catholic).

 

So, I'm curious how you deal with your fairly young kids spending so much time immersed in a worldview that, as a Protestant, you by definition don't agree with (I suppose it is similar situation to that of Christian ps parents).

 

(I lurk on the CLAA forums, and I appreciate how it challenges my thinking, esp wrt to mission work and centering life around prayer. It has inspired me to actively work to incorporate the Liturgy of the Hours in our day, instead of just see it as a lovely dream that I couldn't possibly do in reality. Our denomination recently published a Treasury of Daily Prayer, which is ideal for the purpose; it even includes a discussion on the Liturgy of the Hours, with suggestions on how to incorporate it into your day.)

[MomOfOneFunOne]

Hmmm. It's the polarization that I find so fascinating. I wonder if anyone just likes it; likes it but doesn't really love it or hate it.

 

Oddly, one of my favorite cookbooks was thoroughly thrashed by critics. It was so roundly denegrated that I went to the book store to see for myself. I bought it and to this day it's one of my three favorites.

 

I don't know anything about CLAA at all. But as I said, the polarization is just fascinating!

[MSherman]

How does doing CLAA as a Protestant work out in practice? Do you go over all the course material with them, so as to point out differences in belief and explain what you believe?

 

Yes, precisely. I read each Lesson myself. This is something I enjoy doing, so it is no burden.

 

When (not if) an issue comes up upon which I have a different view, I explain that this is the Catholic view. I also explain what Baptists believe (that is our denomination). Sometimes, we also talk about what other denominations or even other religions believe. This, to me, is an integral part of education.

 

For example, we worked through much of TOG this year. There were lessons on Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. We talked about what people of those faiths professed, and how Christianity compared (not that I am comparing Catholicism to Buddhism :001_smile: but I hope you get my point).

 

I don't let them loose with this or any other curriculum. I believe that the Bible makes me primarily responsible for their education, and that I would be failing in that duty to simply turn them over to any school or text book without knowing what they are (or are not being taught). No text book, curriculum or school is worldview neutral, after all.

 

Even if I were sending them to a Christian school of my own denomination I would feel a duty to talk to their teachers and review the text books they were using.

[laylamcb]

Yes, precisely. I read each Lesson myself.

When (not if) an issue comes up upon which I have a different view, I explain that this is the Catholic view. I also explain what Baptists believe (that is our denomination). Sometimes, we also talk about what other denominations or even other religions believe. This, to me, is an integral part of education.

 

I agree.

 

By contrast, Mr. Michael does not: Though he does not forbid Protestants to study in the CLAA, he doesn't believe that an "anti-Catholic" will last long in any of CLAA's advanced courses. Further, he considers it a "waste of time" if a parent spends "half of their time explaining to their children why they don't believe half of the stuff taught in the courses." To sum up, he believes that "we [that is, Catholics and Protestants] can share hymns and holidays, but we really cannot share genuine classical education."

 

Edited April 13, 2010 by laylamcb
clarification

[Mama Lynx]

I agree.

 

By contrast, Mr. Michael does not: Though he does not forbid Protestants to study in the CLAA, he doesn't believe that an "anti-Catholic" will last long in any of CLAA's advanced courses. Further, he considers it a "waste of time" if a parent spends "half of their time explaining to their children why they don't believe half of the stuff taught in the courses." To sum up, he believes that "we [that is, Catholics and Protestants] can share hymns and holidays, but we really cannot share genuine classical education."

 

 

It was quotes just like that that ended my investigation of CLAA very early.

[happygrrl]

How does doing CLAA as a Protestant work out in practice? I mean, its selling point is how it integrates Catholicism into every aspect of education - how do you keep your kids from internalizing Catholic beliefs (since as a Protestant, I assume you disagree with them on some key points - otherwise you wouldn't *be* Protestant ;)).

 

My thinking: This is why one really can't complete the program unless one is Catholic. One *must* enroll in the Catechism classes to participate in upper level classes. In these classes where points of faith are to be argued the "correct" answer is the one that conforms to the Catechism. If you believed the Baltimore Catechism was the correct answer you would already be Catholic, right?

 

I really don't have a problem with all of this, as long as it is understood by non-Catholics before they join up. Thankfully Mr. M explained this to me via e-mail before I signed on. We aren't protestant and would possibly be closer to the views that Mr. M would grade "correct", but I just couldn't be sure. (I also am weary of people wanting to "convert" my kids, and that vibe was very present there IMO.) Since we were going through our own Catechism the thought of having to guide the kids through another that may or not be similar and that would be graded without discussion.... sigh.

[clwcain]

Given that the Baltimore Catechism is only applicable to Catholics of the Latin Rite, even Eastern Catholics would be excluded from the CLAA's full program.

 

There are four other Rites and 22 other Churches in communion with Rome; all of them are Catholic.

Edited April 14, 2010 by clwcain

[happygrrl]

Given that the Baltimore Catechism is only applicable to Catholics of the Latin Rite, even Eastern Catholics would be excluded from the CLAA's full program.

 

There are four other Rites and 22 other Churches in communion with Rome; all of them are Catholic.

 

Thank you, clwcain. I am trying to tread lightly.

 

 

EDITED TO ADD: You know, I just have to add this. I had some bad experiences with a protestant "rigorous ed. school" when I was growing up. There was a lot of discussion about who was "in" and who was "out", and there was a definite (though often unspoken) classification of just how "Christian" you were. Being an "in Christian" depended on answering questions in the way the powers that be felt was "the truth". It was a slippery slope that went from simply "defending the true faith against heresy" to "defending the true faith from everyone that thinks differently than we do". It was manipulation and spiritual abuse. I am not Catholic, so I can't play the "which Catholics are true Catholics" game. I just know that the format of CLAA was too reminiscent of that experience. I am sure many families can go through without feeling inappropriate exclusivity themselves (or even noticing it). I just couldn't do it.

 

Whew.

Edited April 14, 2010 by happygrrl

[iwka]

 

I mean, I am intrigued by CLAA, and am often tempted to take a course or two myself, but I'd never turn my kids loose on it until they had a very firm grasp of what we believe (we're Lutherans). Otherwise it seems like a recipe for ending up with Catholic kids ;) (not that that would be the end of the world, but if I thought Catholic theology was closer to the truth than Lutheran theology, I wouldn't be Lutheran in the first place - I'd be Catholic).

 

 

Well....I guess, if you think that Lutheran theology is closer to the truth, and you want to use the program...can't you explain to your kids (whenever needed) your points on the topics that are controversial to you? Wouldn't tjat work?

 

Blessings.

[MistyJ]

Ikwa,

 

In response to your first, innocuous question, we are in CLAA, and doing pretty well. We are in about our 3rd week, dd is in Catechism, Grammar and Geography, ds in Catechism, Arithmetic and Geography.

 

The requirement for 100% mastery can be very frustrating to them, but they are becoming accustomed to it, and I feel better, more analytical readers because of it. Neither of them is past lesson 4 in any subject, and dd has shed a lot of tears, but we're pushing on. 100% mastery in every subject is very hard to enforce for any teacher, hs or not, and I am grateful that dc are being exposed to this level of expectation.

 

Is Mr. Michael harsh? Good God, yes. I am fully loyal to the Magisterium, go to Confession every 2 weeks, and had already embraced a rigorous prayer life, so I am no lukewarm Catholic. He is heavy on the letter of the law, light on mercy.

 

My husband, whom I had tried to sheild from the CLAA forum, literally flipped out when I accidently left it on and he read some of it. My husband was regretably raised in the schismatic Pius X society, and spent a childhood being taught that the schimatics were "holier than the Pope, those others aren't really Catholic." Reading Mr. Michael's tone brought back very bad memories for dh, and he was about to start posting on the board (Heavens! In my name!) In Mr. Michael's defense, he does not tolerate any anti-Vatican II "nonsense" as he puts it.

 

Personally, I attribute Mr. Michael's tone to youth. I'm guessing here, but he seems to be in his early to mid-thirties. I think of Padre Pio, who began as a harsh taskmaster, an intolerant, exacting Confessor, but grew merciful in old age, proclaiming before his death that there must be very few souls in hell.

 

Mr. Michael does not view the school as a "money-maker", and does not see himself as a cheerful customer service provider. He is providing a Catholic education, one that includes a commitment to a simplified, Christ-centered life. He is not interested in making lukewarm Catholics or non-Catholics agree with him, and the forums are not a place to defend your overscheduled lifestyle or personal curriculum choices.

 

So far, I like it. I'm not sure I'll give every subject over to CLAA as prescribed. I am afraid to post just about anything on the forum, because WM comes after me like a Rottweiler when I ask the simplest question. He is a visionary, for sure, and I am praying and trusting in the sanctifying influence of the Grace of God, that he will grow more humble. He is earnest, and he loves God and the Church.

[MyFourSons]

I agree.

 

By contrast, Mr. Michael does not: Though he does not forbid Protestants to study in the CLAA, he doesn't believe that an "anti-Catholic" will last long in any of CLAA's advanced courses. Further, he considers it a "waste of time" if a parent spends "half of their time explaining to their children why they don't believe half of the stuff taught in the courses." To sum up, he believes that "we [that is, Catholics and Protestants] can share hymns and holidays, but we really cannot share genuine classical education."

 

 

I think you misunderstood him. He is trying to say that the program has Catholocism integrated into all the course material, he is up front about it. If you do not agree with Catholic teaching or philosophy, this may become to tedious to constantly be contridicting what is in the course material for your student, and you won't enjoy it as much. Probably why many non-Catholics choose not to continue. It sounds like he is speaking from experience, not prejudice. I agree whole heartedly that children should be exposed to different worldviews. But the point of this kind of education is not simply a classical education, but to fully immerse the child in Catholic culture. Full immersion is different from exposure, and so Protestant parents need to be thoughtful of this.

 

I am a Catholic, and I have been a little put off by the boards as well. It does not seem like a community that I would really belong in. But I have no problem with programs that espouse one philosophy over every other, so long as parents have the choice of whether or not their children participate. Whether it is BJU or CLAA, I'm glad parents can choose a program that fits into their own beliefs.