CLAA users... how's it going?

[MyFourSons]

Well....I guess, if you think that Lutheran theology is closer to the truth, and you want to use the program...can't you explain to your kids (whenever needed) your points on the topics that are controversial to you? Wouldn't tjat work?

 

Blessings.

 

As I mentioned earlier, the entire program is so steeped in Catholic theology that it simply might be too much for those who don't agree with it to be constantly explaining the differences or why they don't believe in this or that. The point of the program is to fully immerse the student in Catholic culture, and if you are not Catholic that may be a problem for you.

 

Mr. Michael is not the most diplomatic person from what I've seen on the boards, but I think that this is what he is trying to say. If you are not open to Catholic theology and culture, than this program may be a waste of your time.

[halfdozen]

Before signing up for CLAA, please spend some time reading through the parent forums. Then note these four signs of cult behaviour: 1) compliance with the group, 2) dependence on a leader, 3) avoidance of dissent, and 4) devaluation of outsiders.

As to the claims of never having advertised, I think it should read "never having paid for advertising." If you go to multiple classical Catholic homeschooling websites, you will see the same group of parents (especially Iwona, a.k.a. Iwka), as well as a couple of the instructors posting referrals to CLAA as the answer to any query.

Then read the director's response on the forums called "Problem #11 - The CLAA is a Cult." Note the hostility, lack of humility, and his attitude toward what he terms the "homeschool subculture".

[elizabeth]

Absolutely correct. Particularly the cult behaviours and likely narcissism of the leader. AUTHORITY:

degree by which the group and.or leader(s) claim ultimate knowledge about the nature of reality.

POWER:

degree by which group and/or leader(s) offer power and status as a result of joining the group as a member.

MONEY:

degree by which your finances are involved to support your membership in this group and its leader(s).

POLITICS:

degree of internal hierarchy or distance between new members and leader(s) ..... pressures for attaining position.

INDOCTRINATION:

degree by which members must follow the group's morality and ethical code over their own; also the degree of dogma and philosophical rigidity.

CENSORSHIP:

degree of control leaders exercise over members' style of communicating; degree of inhibition towards outside ideas about the group, its dogmas and leaders.

FEAR:

degree of concern over real or imagined enemies; also degree by which humor is forbidden in relation to group dogmas

[iwka]

Yep. I'm in a cult. Beware.

[Elvenfoot]

I know CLAA very well and know it is not a cult. However, I have heard several people--who do not know each other--mention to me that things about the forum feel cult-like to them. I didn't come up with the idea, but I see exactly what they mean. I've also heard that it is a standing joke amongst members and think it is telling that such observations do not make them stop and think. Perhaps there is something about the way things are run there that needs another look.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, there is no perhaps about it.

[iwka]

Juat check the teachers at the CLAA and their credentials and experience. Then think.

[Elvenfoot]

The teachers aren't the problem, the forum is. It is the most un-Christlike Christian group I've ever encountered. With a few cult-like characteristics added into the mix, it is more than a little disturbing.

[iwka]

Oh. So, the CLAA itself isn't forming the cult, but the parents on the forum are coming from all over the world to form an internet homeschooling cult?

[Elvenfoot]

No, nobody is forming a cult. You are twisting my words. I am saying that some people who peruse the forum are finding it to be very disturbing because of the way posts remind them of cult behavior. Someone posted the signals a few posts ago. People are seeing some of those signals in the forum, as well as conversations that are unChristlike in the way they treat others. It turns some people off very much, and I concur.

[halfdozen]

Thank you Elvenfoot. That was my point exactly. While I could have chosen to stay with CLAA and ignore the many differences I have with the director pertaining to educational theory and the variety of ways in which the Catholic faith can validly be expressed, it was the cult-like behavior on the forums that made leaving the academy a moral imperative. I will not give money to further that mentality. New parents who ask questions which somehow run contrary to the party line are treated quite poorly by the director. A small group of the parents also try to convince the person that they must get in step with the complete plan and that any other efforts are futile. Then other parents join in and tell the new parent that they will just have to get used to Mr. Michael's rudeness, as he is only doing it to lead them to greater wisdom. To be clear: Mr. Michael was a high school Latin and debate teacher. He began teaching in 2000 while he was still an undergraduate student in college and founded the CLAA in 2008. He has successfully tapped into a niche market. He has some very old textbooks that he has converted for internet use. This does not mean he is necessarily qualified to determine what is or isn't Catholic, classical, or educational.

Other curriculum providers, some of whom have been serving the Catholic homeschool community almost as long as the director of CLAA has been alive, and their educational value are belittled by the director. I wonder why anyone who so completely buys into his belief that he is offering the ONLY truly classical education would be on the Well-Trained Mind forum, as Mr. Michael states the following on the CLAA website

"Do you really believe that books that never existed in history are the way to forming a "well-trained mind"? Be honest. The disorder and inefficiency of these "programs" forewarns its users that the student will end up with a disordered and inefficient mind. Ultimately, these book collections are lazy and careless attempts to improve education driven by easy sales rather than true concern for student formation." You can find the full text of his self-serving critique of other curriculum providers at "Why Choose the CLAA?" on his website.

[Elvenfoot]

Excellent. Very well said. I had to run the other direction as fast as I could go, too. I paid a price for my experience that is still affecting me today. For example, even now, I find myself making decisions and wondering if they are "okay" according to CLAA. Then I kick myself, because I can see how it's all affected my mind. I could sort of see it before I left, but not until I left did I realize what a bad influence it was on me.

 

Now, if I could have done the program and ignored the forum, I might have been just fine and still be there today. I've heard there are positive changes happening and lots of growth. On the other hand, CLAA promotes a lifestyle more than just a curriculum. I'm not sure anybody can make it very far with it without adopting that mindset, even without being on the forum, but maybe I'm wrong. It's just that my efforts with CLAA naturally began to slide toward changing my whole family's lifestyle, which would have been partly healthy and partly not.

[iwka]

I find it interesting that both of you accuse me of participating in a WTM forum, and using the CLAA, while one of you signed up just to bash the school, and another one wrote half of her posts about it.

[Elvenfoot]

Well, I find it interesting that instead of really looking at the issues that have concerned and hurt people in regards to CLAA, you chose to make personal criticisms instead. CLAA conversations never go well--never. Maybe it is because members have invested so much of their trust in Mr. Michael and the program, as well as so much of themselves. It is difficult to think something might be really wrong in the way CLAA operates. And maybe it is because those who are disturbed and hurt by it are unwilling to back down from the problems they see. The latter would describe me, but I know better to get any deeper with conversation about it. Blessings and have a wonderful school year in CLAA.

[halfdozen]

Actually, I did not sign up on these forums to bash CLAA. I have been on the forums since they first started. I can't remember when that was, but I bought my first copy of The Well Trained Mind in 1999 when I began homeschooling. (My original copy of SOTW is falling apart from many years of use, and I have read everything ever published by JW and SWB.) I hadn't posted anything in a very long time, because I tend to just read through the latest threads and then get on with my day. When I was researching CLAA reviews online, this thread popped up, and I realized that others had had similar experiences with it. In order to post a reply I created a new username to go with my new email address.

But that's a very interesting straw man you're building to avoid focusing on the problems that others have with CLAA. Unlike Mr. Michael's claim on his website, all families that leave CLAA do not do so because they can't cut it academically.

[elizabeth]

I do not give a **** what other posters say about it being cultlike. It is by definition, when the members on the family boards are letting Mr Michael dictate their prayer schedules, toys, suggesting that nearly all their free time be allocated to pursuits he deems valid and he derides home schoolers who do not use his program as money wasters and infidels. I am waiting for the other shoe to fall on this dog and pony show.

[iwka]

As far as I know, people have free will and mind - tools to think and choose reasonably and freely how to educate their kids, and if this or that program is suitable for their children and family. As far as I know, no one was/is forcing those who decided to use and then to leave the Academy. 95% stay.

[halfdozen]

95% stay = another Logical Fallacy - Appeal to Popularity

If the director actually has posted on his website a response to "What's WRONG with the CLAA? Problem #9: William Michael is a Jerk," does this say anything about his people skills? Has SWB had to post a response to "Susan Wise Bauer is a Jerk"?

Of course families can choose to leave. They can even get a refund minus 3% within 60 days of requesting it. But many homeschoolers will sign up for the classes and only then visit the forums. The online lessons were okay. Not earth-shattering, just okay. It was the opinions of the director and his followers expressed in the forums that caused me to leave. Before they enroll, parents might like to know what he thinks about the "homeschool subculture" and the supposedly inferior education being taught by anyone who is not following the CLAA program. My initial post on this thread advised any parents considering the CLAA to read through the forums FIRST.

[elizabeth]

http://www.classicalliberalarts.net/index.php?topic=3204.0 The whole lot mock and deride, Mennonites, Protestants(who are not biblical), TWTM, classical education, witches as being particularly hilarious and mothers who use anything but the CLAA. Drink the kool aid if you wish but I can think of a word that rhymes with witch that describes well the lovely ladies who are oh so" Catholic" and superior. Truly what a mean spirited and self laudatory group of sycophants. Shameful hypocrisy and by the way, many witches/pagans including this lady are well read and educated far beyond the limits of the instructors online at the CLAA . I would never, ever mock and deride other human beings with abandon while at the same time espousing christian belief and practice.

[iwka]

Americans get offended easily, don't they? :-)

[amyable]

Maybe I'm just being oversensitive today (being American and all, lol) - but I hope that the people who don't like the CLAA aren't lumping *everyone* who stays as someone who *drinks the Koolaid* or likes the way WM and a few others act on the forums. There are hundreds of families taking classes and a small vocal minority on the forums. Heck, if I left every place where I didn't agree or like the leader, I wouldn't be part of my church (which has since turned around) , I wouldn't be part of my marriage :lol: (ditto), or this country.

 

I know through correspondence that some of the vocal people *don't even use the CLAA*. Many more of us like the *program* or parts of it, try not to visit the forums much except to glean some necessary or good information, and PRAY that the personalities will mellow in time.

 

I'm not saying any particular poster here (or there) is thinking this way, just wanted to stand up for some of us who are like everyone here, just trying to make our way in the world of homeschooling, parenting, etc.

 

Hope I made some sense, the natives are getting restless here. :)

[halfdozen]

While one can certainly use the CLAA program and stay off of the forums, they should be aware that Mr. Michael views the fact that people are staying as affirmation of his rightness. Following the link that Elizabeth posted will take you to a forum post of his in which he says:

"The WTM crowd is as insane a bunch as you'll find anywhere--you have Catholics, Protestants and atheists sharing ideas...sounds helpful."

This would seem to contrast with John Paul II: "The unity of all divided humanity is the will of God."

In a free market economy you vote with your dollars. And no, Iwona, I don't think I offend easily. I think he is easily offensive.

[Faithr]

Well. to be fair, it wasn't a public forum, was it? It is a forum for CLAA members? However, that doesn't belie the fact that they certainly are very smug in their having found the truth in homeschooling (as they see it).

 

But as a devout Catholic myself, it just makes me sick when I see someone tooting Catholicism and being so awful a representative. Pride is the greatest sin and this little snippet of conversation shows how it seems to have all those posters and especially Mr. Michael in its terrible grip. Mr. Michael comes off as especially sophomoric and petty. How embarrassing. And my goodness, his groupies couldn't brown nose enough! Ick.

 

I argued with Mr. Michael on the LCC board. Not pleasant! But there do seem to be very respectable people who can look past his faults and just deal with his product. And please, please do not be deceived into thinking that Mr. Michael represents the Catholic faith. I assure you we have lots and lots of classier folks than that!

[halfdozen]

@Faithr: I also worry that others will believe he is a representative of Catholicism. It is because I am Catholic that I could not continue with CLAA. The Church has never said that families must chant the Liturgy of the Hours or raise children in a monastic lifestyle. (But because his family does not attend daily Mass, he thinks that it might make children become too comfortable at church and not realize it is sacred. Find me a priest who will back him up on this. Daily Mass is so worthwhile, imho, even if you can't go every day.) We can embrace detachment and still expose our children to much that is beautiful. I don't remember the Magisterium telling us that any literature not written by canonized saints is a waste of time. When someone begins to tout their success as proof of their rightness, I get suspicious. The MEEK inherit the earth.

[iwka]

Magisterium, not any homeschooling author, is representative for Catholicism. The Church says that everyone needs to fulfill his/her vocation and LOTH is the most advised prayer. Daily Mass is not practically reachable for many. There is better and worse literature choices. If you tell me that your Catholic kid is reading more of anything that Bible+Church fathers+saints - I say - it is a waste of time.

[Guest cholt356]

I am new here (to the forums, not to WTM). The CLAA is something that I keep coming back to time and time again. I have read the forums and definitely have issues with some of the posts as well as the tone of some posts....that is, in fact, what keeps me at arms length and not enrolled with the CLAA. What keeps me going back to the CLAA is the education and the way that things appear to be laid out in the curriculum itself. I long for my children to be able to read Latin and think for themselves. Thus far, they know little Latin but can think. :)

 

So, my questions for those of you that are not polarized on the CLAA and that may take the classes but not participate in the forums are these:

 

Is the curriculum worth the trade off of either not posting on the forums or being leary of doing so?

 

Is it necessary to be a part of the forums in any way or to adopt fully the Michael's lifestyle/schedule or can one just get the curriculum and move on (as I have with any other curriculum I've purchased)?

 

Is the curriculum itself correct? I've seen posts regarding Latin & Grammar I - how about other courses? I'm wondering if the actual information being taught is...well, factual.

 

We are Catholic so we have no issues with raising our children in the Catholic faith as we are doing that anyway. However, I am curious if the tone of the actual lessons comes across - rude??? I don't know the word exactly I'm looking for - but are the lessons teaching the facts and beliefs of the Catholic faith or does the tone that runs through the forums show up in the lessons as well? Yes, we are Catholic, but I do want my children to be charitable in explaining why. :)

 

This seems to be a very heated topic and I do not want to be an antagonist. I am just looking for the best way to educate my children and appreciate any advice. I have read through all of the threads, but 'middle of the road' information seems difficult to locate on the CLAA. FWIW, I've also tried to find Mr. Campbell's response on the Yahoo! Group but I've been unable to locate that group.

 

TIA,

Cara

[ElizaG]

Hi Cara,

 

I don't have anything to contribute re. the curriculum, and it's probably been modified since we were there anyway. But I suspect that the reason you'll find such polarized opinion is that many families have witnessed treatment of other people that troubled them so much (as described, in small part, on this thread) that they feel they have a moral obligation to stay away from the whole organization.

 

Others have witnessed the same things and either think it's no big deal, or have decided to stay for their own families' benefit.

 

I have no doubt that my 7 year old would know more Latin grammar right now if we'd stayed with Mr. Michael's educational project. But, almost two years down the road, I'm convinced that we made the right choice in leaving. While I'm not going into our reasons publicly (and much has already been said), they were so significant to us that the existence of specific errors in the catechism course, or whatever, became sort of a moot point.

 

God bless,

E.

Edited June 13, 2021 by ElizaG

[quiz1]

So, my questions for those of you that are not polarized on the CLAA and that may take the classes but not participate in the forums are these:

 

Is the curriculum worth the trade off of either not posting on the forums or being leary of doing so?

 

Yes, this is my experience. I don't frequent the forums unless it's to keep up with CLAA news. I rarely post but I do read Mr. Michael's postings every once in a while and find myself if not agreeing, then seeing the wisdom and benefit in what he is saying.

Read what he says about education, especially for the Catholic. Think about the state of the world and what is most important. That sustains me through the difficulties of homeschooling even in general, of fighting the inertia that is my upbringing (very little religious instruction) and implementation of CLAA in the home. I also try not to take myself too seriously so I won't get offended. :001_smile:

 

 

 

 

Is it necessary to be a part of the forums in any way or to adopt fully the Michael's lifestyle/schedule or can one just get the curriculum and move on (as I have with any other curriculum I've purchased)?

 

 

I suppose you could get the curriculum and move on - it's very inexpensive (as compared to other curriculum and packages), I just don't think one can be successful. Just my opinion there. :) I do believe one needs the grace of the Holy Spirit to get through such a challenging curriculum, and I can't say I'll be successful yet. I guess I have tried doing it my own way but I am seeing the wisdom and the fruit of following Mr. Michael's recommendations of scheduling and ordering the home around the LOTH. It's taken three years, it has taken me that long to do the things needed to really be able to focus on the studies, clear out the clutter, re-orient my thinking, etc. and I'm still a work in process. We don't yet do the LOTH proper by the Breviary. I thought I'd be further along by now. But we do say morning and evening prayer, we do say the Angelus, we are scheduled around the approximate time when we'd be doing the LOTH. I'm actually going to be doing the morning prayer portion of the LOTH on Fridays at my parish, so that is incentive to learn how to do it here at home. But we are always going the right direction, little by little. I think I let myself get wrapped up in thinking I had to be a Michaels clone within a few months of joining CLAA, and that put a lot of stress on me and my family. I've let that go, not going to the forums has helped, and taking a measured, balanced approach to the changes that needed to be made has been a benefit. It will take time! And honestly, I really don't think William Michaels is or was expecting what I placed on myself, he has posted on the forums that these changes will take time for most of the people who enroll. We've collectively, as Catholics, just lost the meaning and knowledge of the Catholic culture and restoring it will take time. I'm just the type that wants things done perfectly and want it done now. :D

 

 

 

Is the curriculum itself correct? I've seen posts regarding Latin & Grammar I - how about other courses? I'm wondering if the actual information being taught is...well, factual.

 

 

I'm not smart enough to know with certainty if anything is absolutely correct in any curriculum :). I'm taking the word of those much smarter than me who do post on the CLAA forums, and so far I personally haven't had a problem. We're very new into the program though (halfway through Catechism 1 and beginning Arithmetic and Grammar). I've heard there are problems with the Catechism courses but seriously he takes all the material, word by word, from the Baltimore Catechism. :confused: So not sure where that criticism is coming from? Maybe I should read up but I'm comfortable so far with what we're learning.

 

I'm pretty sure that if you posted your thoughts on the CLAA forums, or maybe did a search, you would have your questions answered in a reasonable way. Maybe not the exact way you would prefer (I know I'd prefer some handholding, friendly emoticons, and loving words that's how I am) but I think you would be satisfied one way or another. :)

 

 

 

We are Catholic so we have no issues with raising our children in the Catholic faith as we are doing that anyway. However, I am curious if the tone of the actual lessons comes across - rude??? I don't know the word exactly I'm looking for - but are the lessons teaching the facts and beliefs of the Catholic faith or does the tone that runs through the forums show up in the lessons as well? Yes, we are Catholic, but I do want my children to be charitable in explaining why. :)

 

No the tone of the lessons are not the same as the tone on the forums. The information is just put across factually, sometimes the questions in the tests will drive us crazy, you really have to know the material very well, inside and out, but you will get used to it. It's not about simply reading and regurgitating the material as presented back on the test. You will have to study and be able to think about the material in different ways than presented in the material. It's hard to get used to but you will get used to it. I think (at least in my case) I've gotten used to not thinking critically so at first it was a little difficult to think the material has been sufficiently studied only to find out at test-time we've only scratched the surface! But you will get used to it. The kids will get used to it. There are tears and frustration for everyone, and in those times we try to remember the scriptures that deal with gaining strength from Christ, the proverbs that deal with hard work. It makes passing those difficult tests such a celebration!

 

 

This seems to be a very heated topic and I do not want to be an antagonist. I am just looking for the best way to educate my children and appreciate any advice. I have read through all of the threads, but 'middle of the road' information seems difficult to locate on the CLAA. FWIW, I've also tried to find Mr. Campbell's response on the Yahoo! Group but I've been unable to locate that group.

 

TIA,

Cara

 

 

I hope I've been of help. I usually don't spend this much time on the internet or inserting myself into "discussions" about CLAA but you seem like a seeker with a charitable heart so I wanted to try to help. Of all the years we've done CLAA so far this is shaping up to be the best, and I feel we're just getting started. I've listened, even when it's been painful, to Mr. Michael's recommendations and am putting them upon my heart and in practice, even though it's slower than I was hoping, maybe slower than other families, and maybe even than what Mr. Michaels would prefer, but I just keep pressing on. I'm hopeful about the future! It's been wonderful and I'm more at peace now than ever. Even with homeschooling. I'm not rushed, I'm not frantic, the house is clean and orderly, (well there's always loads of laundry on the furniture) okay, it's not perfect but I'm okay with where I'm at, it's more than I can say for my mental health a year or two ago, and more than I can say for many other homeschool moms who are overscheduled to the hilt. :001_huh:

 

Good luck and God Bless.

[ScoutTN]

Zombie thread! 

[8filltheheart]

Definitely a zombie thread meant to promote a business.  There is a reason CLAA doesn't get discussed.