National Curriculum Pros and Cons

[oceandaughter]

I don't know much about this issue. Please educate me.

[Annabel Lee]

What? Where and when was this brought up? Is this being proposed (as in, a bill being written)? Yikes!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What? Where and when was this brought up? Is this being proposed (as in, a bill being written)? Yikes!

 

I've seen it discussed in general terms since I was getting my MS Ed back 10+ years ago.

 

The general arguement is that given strong national standards, that schools would know what they need to teach and would do so.

 

My personal arguement against is that the problem isn't so much a lack of information on what to teach. There are plenty of state standards out there. But you have mixed results on meeting both general standards (ex. the large number of students who perform poorly on math and reading assessments, even though math and reading are on state standards) or specific standards controlled by an outside entity (ex. the disparity between high grades in AP classes and passing scores on the AP exams. In other words, students are getting As and Bs even though they are not getting 3s or higher on the exams.) A national curriculum is only as strong as the test that rewards or punishes those who meet or fail to meet the requirements. So either teachers are rewarded or punished (ex. incentive pay or firing) or students are (ex. intensive exam to secure a state university slot).

 

I am also pretty confident that a national standard would have little to do with what I want my kids to learn and experience in their education time. There isn't likely to be a standard for German or Latin in the elementary years (but there might well be a requirement for Spanish). The classical model, especially with its emphasis on studying the ancients and middle ages would probably be dismissed in favor of standards describing global learning without quantifying what this means.

 

I think that it would be a challenge to homeschool under a national curriculum. Most of the countries that have one are far smaller and far more homogenous in population than the US. And I'm just not a fan of standards that are written by a large politicized committee. I would almost always prefer a syllubus written by a smaller group with a vision and a passion for learning (I would offer up the learning plan from the school associated with Hillsdale College as a curriculum guide that I find inspiring).

 

If you're curioius what the national curriculum might look like, there are national organizations for several teacher groups. You can see some of their proposed national standards. (Education World has a number of links, although many of the proposed standards are not fully available online.)

[Laura Corin]

It doesn't apply to home educators. In a school setting I have heard that the pros are to do with accountability, the cons are that good teachers lose flexibility to spend time as it is needed.

 

Laura

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

So how do Scotland's educational results seem to measure up to the rest of Europe?

[WishboneDawn]

Watching from the outside it seems you guys DO sort of have a default national curriculum - Texas standards. The state is so large it generally dictates what textbook publishers include in their texts and what all other states have to choose from. The upside of a national curriculum would be that it would create a forum for all states to be in on the discussion of what the national standards should be rather then being held to one state's standards.

 

Of course that would require a willingness to discuss and compromise, some things I tend the to the US is very short on these days. *shrug*

[Perry]

So how do Scotland's educational results seem to measure up to the rest of Europe?

I think lots of European countries have a national curriculum. It would be interesting to see a comparison of countries with and without.

[Beach Mom]

48 states and DC are working through the National Governor's Association to define standards for math and language arts. The proposed standards were posted earlier this month for public comment.

 

Here is a link

http://www.corestandards.org/Standards/K12/

[Julie in Austin]

I am not sure how I feel about this issue, but one argument I have seen in favor of it is this:

 

Families move frequently. And if a kid does 3rd grade in state X, where multiplication isn't introduced until 4th grade, and then moves to state Y for 4th grade, where multiplication was introduced in 3rd grade, she's toast.

[usetoschool]

It is my understanding, at least what I have heard over the years without actually researching it that Washington is not supposed to have a role in education. It is a 10th amendment issue. Is that incorrect?

 

I think central control and planning have a negative affect on change and innovation and individualizing anything. I don't like the way things went after NCLB and the focus on teaching to the test and don't see how this could be better.

 

I also am concerned about who sets and enforces the standards and who they apply to. I read that there was input from all different groups but I think in the end groups like teacher's unions and curriculum standards councils will end up having the strongest say and I don't think they have proven themselves so far.

[MeaganS]

Families move frequently. And if a kid does 3rd grade in state X, where multiplication isn't introduced until 4th grade, and then moves to state Y for 4th grade, where multiplication was introduced in 3rd grade, she's toast.

 

That exact thing happened to me! I never learned multiplication. I mean, I eventually picked it up, but I never formally learned it and still have the occassional trouble with 6s, 7s, and 8s. Sorry, unrelated but I thought it was funny that you mentioned it.

[hornblower]

Those of you interested in core standards, might want to pop over to Alliance for Childhood www.allianceforchildhood.org

& check out some of their position statements etc. They're concerned about too much emphasis on academics to the detriment of social development and physical development.

 

Whichever way you fall on this issue, apparently there is a window until April 2 to submit comments to TPTB on the topic of Core Standards.

 

From an Alliance for Childhood email, instructions on how to submit feedback:

 

The NGA and CCSSO have set up an online survey to collect comments. The survey is rather confusing. Here are the steps you need to take to ask that the early childhood standards be withdrawn and reconsidered:

1. Go to www.corestandards.org.

2. Scroll to the bottom of the home page and click on the link to the questionnaire.

3. At the “Section 2—Feedback†page, choose the third option, “English Language Arts and Mathematics Standards.â€

4. The next page asks you to “select the level of feedback you would like to give.†Choose the second option, “General Feedback and Feedback on Specific Sections.â€

5. On the “Specific Feedback—English Language Arts†page, check the four boxes for K-5 (Reading, Writing, Speaking and Listening, and Language). This will enable you to select “Remove or entirely rewrite†as your preference if you agree with our position.

 

 

[Lara in Colo]

My biggest gripe with PS right now is the testing standards and what that does to teaching. I'm finding that the teachers teach to the test and there are lots of holes in education. We just recently got ready for the CSAP in Colo and I was force feeding new concepts to my child for the test, that we are now learning in a controlled way. I finally jumped off of the fence and will HS on my own this next year. I think this can only get worse with national standards.

 

Lara

[Tap]

I moved 4 times in high school and lost credits each time. I graduated with more credits than needed but still had to go to college between Jr/Sr year to get enough Oregon approved credits to graduate. One state had World History, another had World Social Studies the other had another class. Each state called the same class something different so I lost the credits.

 

I moved almost once a year for 6 years. Each school district was soooo different. Going from 5th grade in Oregon to 5th grade in Colorado was ridiculously easy and way behind were Oregon was. My parents took me out for the last few months because I wasn't doing anything. Colorado said that if I returned for 6th grade they were going to have to put me up 2 grade levels. I was already slated to start my senior year at 16, that would have me starting my public high school sr. year at 14! We moved instead. My mom didn't want to do that to me.

 

I see National standards as a good thing.

[Laura Corin]

So how do Scotland's educational results seem to measure up to the rest of Europe?

 

The whole of the UK uses a set curriculum, but there's a variation between Scotland and England/Wales/Northern Ireland.

 

I seem to remember that France has (or had when I taught high school there in the dark ages) a national curriculum. I don't know about other European countries.

 

I'm not a bit proponent of national the national curriculum here. A lot of the leeway that has been squeezed out is reported to be 'extras' (essentials) like art and music.

 

Laura

[TXMary2]

I am fine with setting national curriculum standards as long as it doesn't include private schools or homeschoolers. Also, the curriculum needs to be "bipartisan" and all inclusive so as not to indoctrinate to one line of thought or life philosophy.

[Annabel Lee]

I am fine with setting national curriculum standards as long as it doesn't include private schools or homeschoolers. Also, the curriculum needs to be "bipartisan" and all inclusive so as not to indoctrinate to one line of thought or life philosophy.

 

:lol: Sorry, the probability of that made me laugh. If things are how they are now in public education, I don't see it suddenly becoming something that presents all sides of issues or theories.

 

When I read the OP, I thought of a literal National Curriculum - not just national standards to be met. Meaning, the exact same books, worksheets, lectures, etc. would be used in every school. What I imagined was a country in which on a certain day if you popped your head into a classroom in VT, GA, AK, etc. they would all be on the same page in the same math book, reading book, etc. and they'd be learning the same things out of the same teachers manuals. That's why I said "yikes".

 

Then again, that would certainly take the guesswork out of curriculum shopping! :tongue_smilie:

[TXMary2]

:lol: Sorry, the probability of that made me laugh. If things are how they are now in public education, I don't see it suddenly becoming something that presents all sides of issues or theories.

 

:tongue_smilie:

 

LOL- oh, I am certainly under no delusions that it would happen that way......I was just saying.....:tongue_smilie:

[mom31257]

My husband teaches public school, and he is fine with it. He already has to teach to a set of standards, so it would simplify things for everyone. I think it was a very good point about kids moving in from other states.

 

I do hope that it will not apply to homeschoolers or private schools. State standards have never applied before, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Slartibartfast]

I think a national curriculum in the US would be a mistake.

 

Everything is becoming about politics and I don't want politics (at least not that sort) in schools.

 

I shudder with horror to think of presidential debates containing anything to do with curriculum. I don't want schools becoming like the hysteria one sees in the elections anymore. Sheesh! One would practically have to print different books depending on who is in office.

[Jean in Newcastle]

In Japan where they have a national curriculum, they do indeed teach the exact same concept in every third grade on exactly the same day. But there are a choice of textbooks which the school board chooses from. The texbooks vary in approach and examples but not in content.

 

But: 1. Japan is a homogenous country with only one language and culture (unless you are a foreigner).

 

2. The language is phonetic or I should say syllabic.

 

3. learning disabilities and other difficulties are not recognized there. If you are not able to fit the public school you go to a special school.

 

4. families will enroll their kids in cram schools to be able to keep up with the curriculum

 

5. education is tracked. There is an exam at the end of 6th grade to get into Jr. High. Obviously not everyone has learned the skills to the same degree because only the top kids are tracked to the top Jr. Highs. There is another exam at the end of 8th grade before high school. And there is another exam at the end of 12th grade before college/university.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think lots of European countries have a national curriculum. It would be interesting to see a comparison of countries with and without.

 

I think that Germany has standards on a state by state level. I remember that coming up with our German military friends. Some states were seen as better academically (ie. providing a better education) and others were seen as tougher than others (ie. harder to score well on Abitur, the college entrance exam).

 

I wonder how long it would take before college entrance was tied to passing exams tied to the national standards. It's fine to say that non-public schools don't have to follow it. But if continuing on in ones education is tied to mastery of that material, then that is what you will do.

[JillZ]

I think a national curriculum in the US would be a mistake.

 

Everything is becoming about politics and I don't want politics (at least not that sort) in schools.

 

I shudder with horror to think of presidential debates containing anything to do with curriculum. I don't want schools becoming like the hysteria one sees in the elections anymore. Sheesh! One would practically have to print different books depending on who is in office.

 

Looking over the Core Standards site the PP posted, it appears the curriculum would be general guidelines covering skills students should master, not the content. I agree that it would be a mistake to mandate content, but the skills are so basic that it seems like they SHOULD be required.

[Mergath]

I support it. I switched schools in eighth grade, and because of curriculum differences, I managed to graduate high school without ever having taken world geography. (I was great at civics, however, which I had twice.) And I think that a national skill set that all ps kids learn would be valuable.

[lovemyboys]

It is my understanding, at least what I have heard over the years without actually researching it that Washington is not supposed to have a role in education. It is a 10th amendment issue. Is that incorrect?

 

I think central control and planning have a negative affect on change and innovation and individualizing anything. I don't like the way things went after NCLB and the focus on teaching to the test and don't see how this could be better.

 

I also am concerned about who sets and enforces the standards and who they apply to. I read that there was input from all different groups but I think in the end groups like teacher's unions and curriculum standards councils will end up having the strongest say and I don't think they have proven themselves so far.

 

That's a good point. Hard to remember but the DOE is just 31 years old.

 

Others have weighed in on the fact that politics and various ideologies would be hard to balance. Who would be the final arbiter?

 

I say, No Way. It would be one more bureaucracy and somehow they would want to quantify it, so more teaching to the test, more straitened circumstances for the schools to comply with, less flexibility and creativity in kids' school days.

 

If they get their foot in the door with national standards/curriculum, it wouldn't be much of a leap to try to standardize homeschooling. Thinking about the variety of kids/families that we know who homeschool that would be horrendous.