What's the purpose of Latin?

[spradlin02]

I apologize for the tone, but I wanted to catch attention.

 

But seriously, I'm wondering if I want my children to take the time to learn Latin. What value does it bring to their education. Is it something that should be taught early, or should we wait to see if the children have interest in a field where a Latin background would be helpful?

[stripe]

Those whose kids learn it think it helps understand English and other languages, especially grammar and vocabulary, and logical thinking, not necessarily for being ready to use Latin in the future.

[Ester Maria]

But seriously, I'm wondering if I want my children to take the time to learn Latin. What value does it bring to their education. Is it something that should be taught early, or should we wait to see if the children have interest in a field where a Latin background would be helpful?

If you cannot read Latin and are not familiar with the works and the civilization of classical antiquity, and if you are not overly willing to learn it as an adult either, and are even wondering about the purpose of the whole thing, just opt not to do it and spare yourself and your children a lot of time, effort and trouble related to the studies of Latin (and/or Greek).

 

I could write you essays about the transmission of cultural heritage, about the fundamental values of "western civilization", about being heirs of an incredible tradition, about the need to study those languages and their texts for and because of themselves, not because of their potential utility in something else (e.g. learning English grammar / vocabulary via a "proxy", or learning a handful of sayings related to law... both of which completely miss the point)... but I don't think there's a point in doing it. If you don't know the "why" of Latin, just don't do it, and if your children figure out the "why" of Latin on their own one day, they will still have time to do it.

[Heather in WI]

{gasp} What's the purpose of Latin? You ask this on a Classical homeschooling board?!?!!?

 

 

Hee-hee. Just kidding.

 

Here are a few starter articles:

 

Why Study Latin?

 

Why Latin Again?

 

An Apology for Latin and Math

 

HTH! :-)

[Saille]

Also, if you use the search function here on the boards to search why+study+latin, you should come up with an enormous amount of information. This topic comes up very regularly.

[mjbucks1]

I just want to say that I have my kids start learning Latin in 4th grade. It greatly assists with grammar and vocabulary. MANY English words have Latin roots so knowing the Latin root greatly helps when decoding words.....just my two cents worth.

[Cammie]

I think it was The Well Trained Mind (but it might have been another book) that referred to studies that correlated which language a child took to the performance on SATs. The children who had studied Latin had outperformed the other children by an astonishing level! It helps with understanding word meanings in a way that other languages don't.

[Wheres Toto]

I agree with the others - Latin can be very helpful in understanding English. It can also give a jump on learning any of the other Romance Languages since the roots are the same. Anyone interested in Science or Medical fields will also find Latin very helpful and, of course, its useful for the SAT's if your kids will be going to college.

 

My oldest is taking Latin 2 right now in the public schools. They learn about the culture in addition to the vocabulary. She loves learning the myths and cultural aspects but she's already noticed that the vocabulary aspect is helping her in her Biology classes and studying for the SAT's.

[KrissiK]

On a really basic level - when I was a jr. in high school our spelling that year was all the latin prefixes, suffixes and roots. I'm telling you, that was the best part of my education. If you have even that knowledge, you can figure out most of the words in the English language.

[MariannNOVA]

Jumping in quickly - I was reading through LATIN CENTERED CURRICULUM (again) yesterday as I plan for our next selections - Drew Campbell addresses that issue in a few places --

 

Of course, though, if you are asking, then you don't have the book -- but here is some of what he writes:

 

'The simple answer is that if you want to give your children a classical education, you have to teach them classical languages - that's what makes it a classical education in the first place. Without classical languages, you may have an excellent modern liberal arts program, but you won't have a classical education in any hirtorically meaningful sense of the word.' (Page 43 of Latin-Centered Curriculum; Note to see Tracy Lee Sommons' CLIMBING PARNUSSUS and Richard Gamble's THE GREAT TRADITION for a clearer picture of what that "historically meaningful sense" is).

 

Further, he writes: (paraphrasing) that Latin and Greek are valuable b/c students need to have their minds stretched and enlightened. They need to memorize and then apply, systematically, what they have learned. They need to develop self-discipline, attention to detail, and delayed gratification. They need positive models of nobility of spirit and negative examples of cowardice and cruelty in order to recognize these virtues and vices in their world and in themselves. They need the self-esteem that comes not from empty adult plaudits, but from accomplishing something challenging by their own effort - and we must admit that reading Latin and Greek literature in the original tongues is supremely effortful.

 

And, finally (for me anyway - I have a ton of stuff to do) he gives ten reasons -- I will merely provide the main idea for each of the ten - the others are in his book:

 

1. Latin builds English vocabulary like no other language.

2. Latin prepares students for the study of modern foreign languages.

3. Latin teaches grammar far more effectively than any English curriculum (I will attest to this - we are doing CLAA Grammar I along with MCT - the results are amazing).

4. Latin trains students in valuable habits of mind: memory, order, attention to detail.

5. Latin translation provides admirable training in English composition.

6. Classical language study increases our language of the past and of our own history.

7. Classical studies increase cultural literacy.

8. Latin literature and history provide outstanding models of moral insight and virtue and their opposites.

9. The classics provide us with a lifetime's worth of reading.

10. The classical languages are, quite simply, beautiful.

 

HTH -- This was all taken from the 2nd edition of his book.

[pryde55]

If you do decide to introduce at least basic vocabulary, I ran across this beginner "option" at the Canon Press website for a FREE downloadable pdf version of both the Latin and English flashcards (option to print them double-sided at home on cardstock). These are for Latin Primer I Flashcards only. It doesn't look like Canon Press has this for the more advanced flashcards, but it's free & it's a start! I plan to pursue Spanish for my kids & will incorporate the flashcards as supplemental info. Here's the website: http://www.canonpress.org/shop/item.asp?itemid=1426&catid=

[nmoira]

 

I think it was The Well Trained Mind (but it might have been another book) that referred to studies that correlated which language a child took to the performance on SATs. The children who had studied Latin had outperformed the other children by an astonishing level! It helps with understanding word meanings in a way that other languages don't.

I've often read this, but the studies I've seen aren't of the "all other things being equal" variety; it's quite possible that there's something different about the children who either choose to take Latin or who attend schools at which it is compulsory. I'm not yet convinced that the study of Latin is more beneficial to the development of English vocabulary than would be a modern Romance language, though if there's a study I've missed, I'd love to be proven wrong. :001_smile:

[Ester Maria]

I've often read this, but the studies I've seen aren't of the "all other things being equal" variety; it's quite possible that there's something different about the children who either choose to take Latin or who attend schools at which it is compulsory. I'm not yet convinced that the study of Latin is more beneficial to the development of English vocabulary than would be a modern Romance language, though if there's a study I've missed, I'd love to be proven wrong. :001_smile:

Agreed 100%.

And I studied classics throughout the entire middle and high school period (+ some university Latin and historical linguistics later). And my kids study classics. From kindergarten. And now they're on syntax. In other words, we're serious about classics over here, Latin at least.

 

Yet, your objection with regards to the goal of helping with the English vocabulary, is completely correct in my opinion. I actually discourage people from studying Latin for that specific goal (to help with English), even though I recognize it as a legitimate way of getting there.

 

I also disagree with nearly all of the Drew Campbell's points brought up in MariannNOVA's post, and here's why:

1. Latin builds English vocabulary like no other language.

2. Latin prepares students for the study of modern foreign languages.

3. Latin teaches grammar far more effectively than any English curriculum (I will attest to this - we are doing CLAA Grammar I along with MCT - the results are amazing).

4. Latin trains students in valuable habits of mind: memory, order, attention to detail.

5. Latin translation provides admirable training in English composition.

6. Classical language study increases our language of the past and of our own history.

7. Classical studies increase cultural literacy.

8. Latin literature and history provide outstanding models of moral insight and virtue and their opposites.

9. The classics provide us with a lifetime's worth of reading.

10. The classical languages are, quite simply, beautiful.

 

• 1. Wrong. A serious study of a modern Romance language will have approximately the same effect AND give you some concrete useful knowledge (as opposed to just reading ability). Most of the "Latin" in English actually got there via French anyway, and let's not forget that the fundamental grammatical structure of English as a language, as well as fundamental vocabulary, are of Germanic origin.
  
• 2. True, but in a sense in which the study of any language prepares for the study of a similar language. Nothing is proven for Latin's "superiority", just like Latin will prepare you for French, French will prepare you for Latin.
  
• 3. I don't see any striking similarities between the English and the Latin grammar on the fundamental level that would exceed the similarities with many modern languages' grammars.
  Also, it's not unheard of to study the English grammar for itself, not via a proxy.
  
• 4. So does a serious grammatical study of any language, even outside of the sphere of natural human languages (e.g. mathematics is a language as well, a semiotic system that is; you can seriously study music theory and harmony the same way you could study Latin and learn about "memory, order and detail", and lots of other things).
  
• 5. So does a translation of any other language. Imagine the effects on your composition by translating Divina Commedia, or Faust. ;)
  
• 6. While this is definitely correct for the Italian cultural context, and many other countries to various extents, the sole studying of classics won't do it. Also note that you can achieve the same kind of diachronic communication with texts and contexts using other languages as well.
  
• 7. Sure. So do the Germanic studies. Or Italian studies. Or French philology. Get the point? It's not that what Campbell is saying is incorrect, it's the underlying assumption that the study of other languages won't produce the same effect.
  
• 8. Ever read Catullus, Petronius, vulgar Latin poetry such as Carmina Burana, and alike?
  Just because a specific remaining canon is promoted, it doesn't mean that there are no other remaining texts which might change your mind about Latin being predominately "the language of the virtue", through the study of which you will clearly see good and bad. It's just incorrect to generalize ANY language that way. As any language, it's applicable to way more contexts than the ones promoted by the canon, and even amongst remaining works, there are some written from the other perspective. Just like in ANY literature.
  Also, even if that's not the point - other national languages and literatures are also full of positive role models and moral insights, as well as their opposites.
  
• 9. So does German. And French. And Italian. And Spanish. And...
  
• 10. That's rather subjective, I'd say.
  

I'm big on classics, really. But I disagree with all of those arguments which favor Latin among the languages based on claims which can be applied for most languages and their literary opuses.

I think the only good reason to study Latin is to want to study Latin and its texts, not trying to help something else through those studies (even if it's a legitimate perspective). A serious study of a modern foreign language, with its literature, can do all of the above Campbell claims.

 

Learn Latin if you want to learn Latin, and not something else. (I've no idea why I'm in the mood of writing so much today. :D)

[MariannNOVA]

Agreed 100%.

And I studied classics throughout the entire middle and high school period (+ some university Latin and historical linguistics later). And my kids study classics. From kindergarten. And now they're on syntax. In other words, we're serious about classics over here, Latin at least.

 

Yet, your objection with regards to the goal of helping with the English vocabulary, is completely correct in my opinion. I actually discourage people from studying Latin for that specific goal (to help with English), even though I recognize it as a legitimate way of getting there.

 

I also disagree with nearly all of the Drew Campbell's points brought up in MariannNOVA's post, and here's why:

 

 

 

• 1. Wrong. A serious study of a modern Romance language will have approximately the same effect AND give you some concrete useful knowledge (as opposed to just reading ability). Most of the "Latin" in English actually got there via French anyway, and let's not forget that the fundamental grammatical structure of English as a language, as well as fundamental vocabulary, are of Germanic origin.

• 2. True, but in a sense in which the study of any language prepares for the study of a similar language. Nothing is proven for Latin's "superiority", just like Latin will prepare you for French, French will prepare you for Latin.

• 3. I don't see any striking similarities between the English and the Latin grammar on the fundamental level that would exceed the similarities with many modern languages' grammars.

  Also, it's not unheard of to study the English grammar for itself, not via a proxy.

• 4. So does a serious grammatical study of any language, even outside of the sphere of natural human languages (e.g. mathematics is a language as well, a semiotic system that is; you can seriously study music theory and harmony the same way you could study Latin and learn about "memory, order and detail", and lots of other things).

• 5. So does a translation of any other language. Imagine the effects on your composition by translating Divina Commedia, or Faust. ;)

• 6. While this is definitely correct for the Italian cultural context, and many other countries to various extents, the sole studying of classics won't do it. Also note that you can achieve the same kind of diachronic communication with texts and contexts using other languages as well.

• 7. Sure. So do the Germanic studies. Or Italian studies. Or French philology. Get the point? It's not that what Campbell is saying is incorrect, it's the underlying assumption that the study of other languages won't produce the same effect.

• 8. Ever read Catullus, Petronius, vulgar Latin poetry such as Carmina Burana, and alike?

  Just because a specific remaining canon is promoted, it doesn't mean that there are no other remaining texts which might change your mind about Latin being predominately "the language of the virtue", through the study of which you will clearly see good and bad. It's just incorrect to generalize ANY language that way. As any language, it's applicable to way more contexts than the ones promoted by the canon, and even amongst remaining works, there are some written from the other perspective. Just like in ANY literature.

  Also, even if that's not the point - other national languages and literatures are also full of positive role models and moral insights, as well as their opposites.

• 9. So does German. And French. And Italian. And Spanish. And...

• 10. That's rather subjective, I'd say.

I'm big on classics, really. But I disagree with all of those arguments which favor Latin among the languages based on claims which can be applied for most languages and their literary opuses.

I think the only good reason to study Latin is to want to study Latin and its texts, not trying to help something else through those studies (even if it's a legitimate perspective). A serious study of a modern foreign language, with its literature, can do all of the above Campbell claims.

 

Learn Latin if you want to learn Latin, and not something else. (I've no idea why I'm in the mood of writing so much today. :D)

 

Thank you for crediting Drew with those points and not me -- I'm not being snarky :) -- I appreciate that you acknowledged that I was merely the messenger...I'm covered in pollen and dirt and cleaning up the disaster that the contractor left on our screened porch (really a rather nice room) from our water disaster and I think if you had flamed me, I'd be in tears! so, truly, thank you.:)

 

I HAD to take Latin in high school -- I would have to say that it forced me to be disciplined......at least about Latin. The nuns said that we had to take it b/c it built character :confused:. Perhaps if I had studied it as a child and not as a teen, I would have loved it the way my three children do.

 

I have to go back out to that disgusting mess now --:leaving:

[Laura Corin]

I think that starting a modern foreign language early is more valuable, when a small child is likely to become more fluent. You can wait until later to study Latin. FWIW Calvin started Mandarin at 7, Latin at 8 and French at 12; Hobbes started Mandarin at 4, Ancient Greek (his choice) at 7, French at 8 and Latin at 9.

 

I think that Latin is a great entry into Romance languages, it is great brain training, and it allows access to a great civilisation. It's not the only useful language, but it's a very important one.

 

Laura

Edited March 20, 2010 by Laura Corin

[MariannNOVA]

I think that starting a modern foreign language early is more valuable, when a small child is likely to become more fluent. You can wait until later to study Latin. FWIW Calvin started Mandarin at 7, Latin at 8 and French at 12; Hobbes started Mandarin at 4, Ancient Greek (his choice) at 7, French at 8 and Latin at 9.

 

I think that Latin is a great entry into Romance languages, it is great brain training, and it allows entry into a great civilisation. It's not the only useful language, but it's a very important one.

 

Laura

 

Laura: What curric did you use for Ancient Greek? -- two of my three are clamoring for that to be added to our school...the almost 11 yr old and the 9 yr old.

[Laura Corin]

Laura: What curric did you use for Ancient Greek? -- two of my three are clamoring for that to be added to our school...the almost 11 yr old and the 9 yr old.

 

It's not wonderful, but it's a good introduction for late elementary/early middle school. There hasn't been an answer book up to now, but I think Galore Park has recently produced one.

 

Laura

[MariannNOVA]

It's not wonderful, but it's a good introduction for late elementary/early middle school. There hasn't been an answer book up to now, but I think Galore Park has recently produced one.

 

Laura

 

Thank you!:001_smile:

[Ester Maria]

Thank you for crediting Drew with those points and not me -- I'm not being snarky :) -- I appreciate that you acknowledged that I was merely the messenger...I'm covered in pollen and dirt and cleaning up the disaster that the contractor left on our screened porch (really a rather nice room) from our water disaster and I think if you had flamed me, I'd be in tears! so, truly, thank you.:)

I'm honestly sorry if I upset you somehow; I'm your typical hot-tempered Italian woman who always sounds more ardent about something than she actually is, so even if I'm completely calmly and politely disagreeing, and simply in a mood to write a lot, like now, the text itself might not "capture" it that well so it might seem like I'm flaming somebody.

 

I'm really not trying to flame anyone, Drew Campbell included; I'm just bringing up what I think is also a legitimate viewpoint that needs to be heard and that's often lacking in discussions like these, because of people's romanticized views about Latin or sentimental attachment to the language. In some other context, and with some other people, I might as well have used the similar type of argumentation that Campbell uses if speaking more vaguely about classical education and the value of Latin. I also fully realize that Campbell, by the virtue of writing for the larger audience which includes all sorts of people with all sorts of cultural backgrounds, might be purposely simplifying things and might even be aware of the potential objections I just brought up. And after all, let's not forget about having a clear agenda, and not hiding it - it's in his interest to talk people into doing that, and I understand the type of persuasive speech.

 

So really, nothing against Campbell, or you for bringing up Campbell, I'm just discussing the arguments themselves. :) After all from what I've seen most of the people on these boards include some form of Latin at some stage of education, and we may do it for different reasons and to different extents, I'm not interested in seriously talking anyone out of doing Latin, or into doing more Latin or different Latin, just bringing the other side of the coin too.

 

I HAD to take Latin in high school -- I would have to say that it forced me to be disciplined......at least about Latin. The nuns said that we had to take it b/c it built character :confused:.

You see, your last sentence, what you were told in high school, is basically what I talk about.

People often make all kinds of absurd claims to back up the study of Latin (like your nuns), or make claims which are applicable to other languages too (like Campbell). The latter is fine, after all, these boards are not anyone's doctoral dissertation and of course that the tone of the discussions will be more colloquial than seriously academic, and of course that normally we won't nitpick things - unless the topic is about those reasons themselves, which this topic wants to be.

 

Which is why I say, "fine, it's a legitimate perspective, but here's my response - even though I also do Latin, I disagree with your whys".

My only point is that what most people on these boards seem to want - "help with English grammar and vocabulary" - can be done in other, more "economic" ways. And it's completely fine if they still pick the Latin way, even if they do it completely differently than me.

[MariannNOVA]

I'm your typical hot-tempered Italian woman who always sounds more ardent about something than she actually is,

 

Oh, no -- you didn't upset me -- you were perfectly appropriate and polite and I was SO appreciative of that -- I totally understood that you were just quoting Drew and you didn't make me culpapble in any way and I so appreciated that -- I was so glad that you were nice - and I just wanted to tell you that. :)

 

 

And, what I've highlighted in red -- ME TOO! ME TOO!

[Ester Maria]

And, what I've highlighted in red -- ME TOO! ME TOO!

:cheers2: Very glad to find that out!

 

In that case you can also elegantly disregard my previous posts... since for our cultural context, Latin is somewhat a different issue, i.e. by default we cannot have the same relationship to it as some other nations and cultures do (linguistically as well). :D

[mcconnellboys]

Well, in addition to being helpful to the thinking process, in general, it is accepted as a second language by many colleges now. If you have a child who is interested in studying either history or science in school, it will be helpful for them to already have somewhat of a background in it.

 

Here's info about studying Latin in middle school:

 

http://www.promotelatin.org/latinmiddle.htm

 

Here are numerous links about studying Latin:

 

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/whystudyclassics/a/whystudylatin.htm

 

And here's a You Tube video by the folks at Lively Latin about why we should study Latin:

 

 

[lauracolumbus]

The MP article cited above by Leigh Lowe with the comparison between studying Latin and math was especially helpful in providing an explanation for the way Latin strengthens critical thinking skills more so than practically any other part of classical education.

 

And I'd like to add to Ester Maria's rebuttal of Drew's arguments that in the name of efficiency, I believe Latin is the way to go. Yes, there might be other ways to achieve these goals, but Latin accomplishes it in one fell swoop. And from personal experience, I believe it is easier to go from Latin to French or Italian than the other way. I find that Latin forces my son to focus more than any other lesson other than math b/c it is HARD--and thus character building. Yet, while math is not fun for him, he does enjoy Latin.

 

Laura

[MariannNOVA]

:cheers2: Very glad to find that out!

 

In that case you can also elegantly disregard my previous posts... since for our cultural context, Latin is somewhat a different issue, i.e. by default we cannot have the same relationship to it as some other nations and cultures do (linguistically as well). :D

 

Precisely! And, very well put! :D Please notice the Red and Green!

[Ester Maria]

And I'd like to add to Ester Maria's rebuttal of Drew's arguments that in the name of efficiency, I believe Latin is the way to go. Yes, there might be other ways to achieve these goals, but Latin accomplishes it in one fell swoop. And from personal experience, I believe it is easier to go from Latin to French or Italian than the other way. I find that Latin forces my son to focus more than any other lesson other than math b/c it is HARD--and thus character building.

Yes, I see your point. Especially about it being mentally challenging, harder to do than the immersion-style study of a modern foreign language.

 

I still think that in order to really profit out of Latin the way you describe it, i.e. to really have use of it on all of Drew's points, you need to learn it thoroughly. Which again comes down to my "learn it only if you want to learn it for its own sake". I don't know anyone who managed to do a thorough study of Latin (post-syntax level) while primarily considering it an aid for grammar or a proxy to achieving some other skills, rather than studied it principally for its own sake. But I do know many who started and gave up along the way while still on the level of morphology (which is, frankly, rather easy and has more to do with memorization and knowing the parts of speech than actual thinking the Latin syntax requires, especially if you practice it on syntactically complex chunks of text).

 

Btw I also noticed my daughters practice their concentration and attention span precisely on Latin (and patience on Greek :lol:). But that's because they're on syntax, in my opinion. I'm not sure where your son is with Latin, but if he's on syntax and texts, no wonder you notice what you notice, syntax is really rather "mathematical" in nature, the kind of concentration it requires. But again, that's a pretty high level, and if you got there in the first place, it probably means that other than using Latin for something else (vocab, grammar, mind exercise) you wanted to learn it for its own sake. :)

[lauracolumbus]

Ds is just starting Henle and just the early exercises have him focusing even more so than he does with his Saxon text. My goal for him is fluency sometime in high school--he's in 6th grade now. My two dds will be further along than he is at this stage. So we're really not very far into our study, but it still takes a lot of concentration on both of our parts. Honestly, I did have the reasons we've been discussing here when we started. It was more for the high SAT scores, use in medical/legal professions, etc. But now I see the mental discipline advantages so clearly. Plus, my son is a "Romaphile." And reading Caesar in Latin will be the epitome of cool for both of us.

 

Now I just need to keep up w/him.

Laura

[DarlaS]

I've often read this, but the studies I've seen aren't of the "all other things being equal" variety; it's quite possible that there's something different about the children who either choose to take Latin or who attend schools at which it is compulsory. I'm not yet convinced that the study of Latin is more beneficial to the development of English vocabulary than would be a modern Romance language, though if there's a study I've missed, I'd love to be proven wrong. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

 

I would seriously doubt that a student taking Latin says "Gee, I'll take Latin and just kick back and relax on my other studies".

 

Also, the article I read (years ago--not even going to try and find it now) had other languages coming in pretty close to Latin.

[Merry]

you're right, your point of view is not often heard on this board. But I understand now that if we are to get the benefits so often touted by the Latin teachers, we need to really get into the language and not try to cherry pick the learning of the language for the vocabulary, mental training, high SAT scores and so forth. Thanks.

[iwka]

http://www.classicalliberalarts.com/library/whylatin.htm

 

I. BECAUSE LOGIC IS DEVELOPED THROUGH CLASSICAL LANGUAGE STUDY

II. BECAUSE HISTORY SPEAKS TO US IN GREEK AND LATIN

III. BECAUSE CLASSICAL LITERATURE IS THE SOURCE OF CULTURE AND TASTE

IV. BECAUSE THE CLASSICS, IN TRANSLATION, ARE NOT THE CLASSICS

V. BECAUSE CLASSICAL LITERATURE IS MORALLY SUPERIOR TO MATHEMATICS

VI. BECAUSE THE CLASSICAL LANGUAGES ENABLE MASTERY OF MODERN LANGUAGES

[Rosie_0801]

V. BECAUSE CLASSICAL LITERATURE IS MORALLY SUPERIOR TO MATHEMATICS

 

 

:lol: I'm going to send this idea to my mathphobic relatives. I wonder what they'll have to say about it.

 

Rosie

[iwka]

:lol: I'm going to send this idea to my mathphobic relatives. I wonder what they'll have to say about it.

 

Rosie

 

I know I can count on You, Rosie!!!

:)