Financial Aid for Undocumented Minors?

[CalicoKat]

It is one thing for the child to bear criminal responsibility for their parents actions. However, it is quite another to give a child benefits that he or she does not rightfully deserve.

 

My piano teacher's daughter was almost deported from the Czech republic because of a technicality on her student visa. She has a couple more years in her school program, but the government didn't care. She was in out of country only 2 days short of the requirements for extending her student visa and she was about to be arrested. Her only recourse was to bump up her wedding to fiance who has a passport in the EU. The only reason why I mention this is to point out that the US is expected to extend more grace its illegal immigrants than any other country.

more grace, less taxes on imports, etc.

 

I'm the wife of a husband who's job is being "off shored" to India.

 

I'll have to hop down off my little box here.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

but I wonder if it's really worth the cost to citizens to have a college education available to almost everyone. Do we need that? Does the research show that it's the higher education that benefits society or is it having more people able to earn higher wages? It makes sense to me that having more people able to earn more benefits society - that's fewer people depending on the welfare state and more people paying taxes. But if we could manage to significantly raise wages for high school graduates and attract and build businesses that pay living wages to people without college degrees, would that be what really matters?

 

 

 

 

It sounds to me like you are saying that because college is very expensive, taxpayers should foot the bill for people who can't afford it, and that way people won't have so much debt. But it seems to me that what that does is it allows more people to go to college with a little less debt, and then they have to pay more taxes for life. Why not reduce the program and reduce taxes so that people will have more of what they earn to spend and save as they see fit, whether that is for college for their children or for starting a business or for something else?

 

Oh goodness, I am starting to sound like a conservative:)

 

I agree that college is not everything and not for everyone. I just think that it should be affordable since I believe soon it will only be the haves who will be able to attend college and not the have-nots. I also think that if someone does not pass their classes in college, then perhaps they should not be eligible for for more financial aid. OTOH, I think there should be an allowance for 1 failing class.I also think that there should be more vocational schools and I also disagree with many professions raising and raising the educational requirements even though I love education:)

 

As far as taxes, I think it is a good investment to pool our resources for education. IMO I think it will be less than the burden that many students end up with.

[tex-mex]

Thanks for your thoughts. Just to clarify, the guests on the program I was listening to cannot get any financial aid LOANS. It's not free money they were looking for, just the chance to take out a student loan and pay it back like other kids in their graduating classes. Without a Social Security number they are unable to do so.

 

astrid

 

Okay ladies -- hold the throwing of tomatoes... *grin*

Undocumented students do not qualify for financial aid.

 

Usually what happens in this situation is that the undocumented student -- in order to go on to college, they either use a false ID number or get a "grant" from some wealthy sponsor. The risk of using the false ID is great in college and students do get deported. Many cannot drive a car. Go back to their native land and visit family. Cannot vote. No welfare or medicaid benefits if they cannot prove they were born in the US. Whatever they do is paid "under the table" -- meaning menial labor like cleaning homes, day labor, etc. To work at a fast food place would be great if they had ID. Once the K-12 education ends... they have hit a brick wall. Now our country allows undocumented minors to attend public schools (Supreme Court ruling years ago vs the state of TX), but the irony is that once 12th grade ends, these children do not have the ability to further their education. What can they do? Our law allows them a free and equal education up til 12th grade -- then dumps them in the street to be in poverty as an adult. What if a small % of those dumped out of public school with no chance to succeed in life are brilliant young minds -- one of them with the future ability to find a cure for cancer? Forget it, let him/her go back to their own country. A country that is foreign to them since they grew up in the USA and this culture is all they know. That is the controversy. Do we dump all undocumented foreigners as "trash" depsite the potential our country can get from a few bright minds going on to college?

 

I just read a book about 2 girls in CO who did this with the help of a wealthy benefactor. One is going on to law school and the other is going to be a social worker. Both graduated with honors in college. However, both still are undocumented and did not want to use a fake ID/SSN. Great book written by the wife of the Mayor of the city of Denver, CO:

 

http://www.denverpost.com/books/ci_13171532

 

Really makes you think. There is NO EASY answer. Should the US pass the Dream Act -- these girls would be automatic US citizens by proxy of being college students. And these students would be the white collar workers of our country -- the cream of the "crop" so to speak -- giving us their talents and passion to make our country great. America is a country of immigrants. And their inventions have made this country powerful.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/opinion/20thur2.html

 

http://miller-mccune.com/politics/what-about-us-dream-act-1234?article_page=2

 

ETA:

The 2 girls who graduated from college originally applied as undocumented "non-citizens" and the private college in CO allowed them in as they held a very high gpa with honors from their high school. The tuition was counted as non-resident and the benefactor paid for the tuition yearly based on them holding a high gpa while in college.

Edited January 12, 2010 by tex-mex

[astrid]

Hey, aren't you proud of us so far? 54 posts and it's all civil and thoughtful and really interesting~!

 

BRAVO!

 

And thanks for your thoughts---- I'm really finding this thought-provoking.

 

astrid

[Parrothead]

Hey, aren't you proud of us so far? 54 posts and it's all civil and thoughtful and really interesting~!

 

BRAVO!

 

And thanks for your thoughts---- I'm really finding this thought-provoking.

 

astrid

I had to quit posting on topic. I didn't want to insult anyone, and didn't want to be insulted. :lol:

 

I am reading though. :tongue_smilie:

[Peek a Boo]

It is one thing for the child to bear criminal responsibility for their parents actions. However, it is quite another to give a child benefits that he or she does not rightfully deserve.

 

..... the US is expected to extend more grace its illegal immigrants than any other country.

 

:iagree:

 

Then we get to examine what is involved to become a criminal: can a child become a criminal? If they are aware that their status is illegal and do nothing to change it, are they now complicit?

 

and yeah: being deported is a consequence. One doesn't have to be a CRIMINAL to experience legal consequences. The US has some pretty lax policies about illegals compared to other countries [especially the anchor baby law]. There was a pretty extensive thread about that a while back.

 

in short, no, i do not agree with being an accomplice to an illegal person trying to stay in the US illegally. I would like to see our immigration policy streamlined, but I do think we need to be enforcing some basic laws. [says the gal who got 4 speeding tickets this past year....]

[Peek a Boo]

Just to clarify-- you feel that providing some financial aid would be rewarding the bad behavior of illegal immigration or overstaying visas, not working hard and finishing high school, right?

For an illegal immigrant? ayup.

 

 

Again, to clarify--- you mean that we should not allow young children who have illegal status to attend public school because it creates a drain on taxpayers, is that correct? As in preschool/kindergarten?

no. we should not allow it because it creates a false premise of acknowledging an illegal act as a permissible thing.

 

Do you feel that withholding education from an entire segment would create a GREATER drain on taxpayes as those individuals become illiterate adults, incapable of holding a job or paying taxes in their own right? Do you worry that this would lead to more widespread uneployment and all the social ills that are part and parcel of it?

 

that's only a problem when the illegal immigrants remain in the country. If they were deported in line w/ our laws then NO, it would not be an issue.

 

 

 

Disdain? Or desperation?

Both. the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

If you are a part of organized religion, do you feel that this belief is in opposition to the teachings of your religion? If so, how do you reconcile that?

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's: the laws of our land require obedience. This particular law happens to be one that our land [as well as others] takes pretty seriously and does not infringe on basic human rights [you are deported back to your original country, not executed] or religious commandments [Thou Shalt All Live in America??]. I thank the many churches and groups that send money, supplies, and people to the impoverished in other countries.

[Haiku]

I think that people who were brought here illegally as children should be able to seek citizenship when they turn 18. If they choose not to do so, then they should not receive federal student aid.

 

I am extremely liberal in most respects, but I have to say that I was intrigued by the idea of not allowing children of illegal immigrants to attend public schools. I haven't given it enough thought to know yet how I feel about it, but I will say that if people know their children will not be able to attend school, they will probably be less likely to come here illegally.

 

I'm all for immigration. Two of my kids are immigrants, and I have no problem with people who were not born here making their home here. But it should be done legally.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

Can someone who is better than I am at finding stuff online link to an explanation of the law pertaining to illegal immigrants and public schooling?

 

Tara

[Pixie]

Student loans aren't the only way to pay for higher education. Many people pay cash for one class at a time, or two classes, depending on what they can afford. May not be the fastest way, but it does get you to the finish line.

 

We have to live with the consequences of our parents decisions, whether they be positive or negative. A person of 18 can certainly apply for citizenship of their own decision, if they wish to become a full citizen. Does that put their family at risk? Possibly, I don't know. I don't know that it would necessarily be an easy decision, but many important decisions are not easy.

 

the problem is they can't, they don't have a path to citizenship, never mind the cost of it.

[tex-mex]

Can someone who is better than I am at finding stuff online link to an explanation of the law pertaining to illegal immigrants and public schooling?

 

Tara

 

 

Here are a few -- first one from the SAT/College Board:

 

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/guidance/financial-aid/undocumented-students

 

From the link above:

"Undocumented students may assume that they cannot legally attend college in the United States.This is not true. There is no federal or state law that prohibits the admission of undocumented immigrants to U.S. colleges and universities, public or private, nor does federal or state law require students to prove citizenship in order to enter U.S. institutions of higher education."

 

"Many state institutions charge undocumented students out-of-state tuition fees (even if the student is a longtime resident of the state), and this policy can put college out of their reach financially. In recent years, 10 states—Texas, California, New York, Utah, Illinois, Washington, Nebraska, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas—have passed laws that permit undocumented students to pay in-state tuition rates under certain conditions. For example, California's law requires the undocumented student to have attended a state high school for three or more years, to have graduated from a state high school, and to sign an affidavit promising to file an application to legalize his immigration status."

 

HOWEVER... read the link above to see that it is impossible for undocumented students to get financial aid, loans, or work study.

 

----------------------------------------------------

Before 1982, a Texas law prevented state funds from being used for the education of undocumented children. Under Texas law, Local Education Agencies (LEAs) could deny enrollment to such students.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyler_v._Doe

 

http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/scca_0001_0003_0/scca_0001_0003_0_00146.html

 

In Plyler v Doe, however, the United States Supreme Court held, in a five-to-four decision, that the Texas law was unconstitutional. The ruling was based on the equal protection provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Of particular concern to the Court was the fact that children--rather than their parents--were involved (Uerling, 1982). The Court believed that denying undocumented children access to education punished children for their parents' behavior. Such an action, the Court noted, did not square with basic ideas of justice (Uerling, 1982).

 

Following the Plyler ruling, many undocumented students began to attend public schools in the United States (Haney, 1987). Because of the protections imposed by Plyler, however, the exact size of this group of students is difficult to estimate.

Edited January 12, 2010 by tex-mex

[cathmom]

I believe that children who have graduated from a US public school should be considered residents of that state for tuition purposes and should be eligible for financial aid. I haven't read all the replies yet, so I don't know if I am the only one LOL.

[st_claire]

I haven't read any of the other replies, but here is my stance.

 

Firstly, what sort of financial aid are we talking about? Private money, well they can make whatever rules they want. Public money shouldn't be used for any educational financial aid for anyone IMO. So in this case their legal status in irrelevant for me.

 

But since a large part of this discussion is about legal status, I will give me thoughts on that also. I think private property rights should be respected. If someone wants to buy land, and someone who owns it wants to sell it to them, then they should be allowed to buy it and have the same rights as any landowner. The government ought to not have the ability to dictate who can live where.

 

Regarding the issue of breaking the law, no court would find these teens responsible for breaking any law, since they were too young at the time they moved. Additionally, breaking the law is not necisary nor sufficient to deserve punishment if that law is morally wrong. A law is not rightious simply because it is a law. I think the goverment establishing laws that basically render all persons and property to be property of the state is morally wrong.

 

Thoughts? Also feel free to PM me as any replies may get lost in the super long thread.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think that people who were brought here illegally as children should be able to seek citizenship when they turn 18. If they choose not to do so, then they should not receive federal student aid.

 

I am extremely liberal in most respects, but I have to say that I was intrigued by the idea of not allowing children of illegal immigrants to attend public schools. I haven't given it enough thought to know yet how I feel about it, but I will say that if people know their children will not be able to attend school, they will probably be less likely to come here illegally.

 

I'm all for immigration. Two of my kids are immigrants, and I have no problem with people who were not born here making their home here. But it should be done legally.

 

Tara

:iagree: I tend to agree:) I think that the countries south of the border need to step up to the plate and start helping their own. I think there is only so much that the US can do to help others and if we open the flood gates, then it will be disastrous for our country.

 

Clarification: I do think we should help others in need as much as possible. I also believe that other countries can do better as well:)

Edited January 12, 2010 by priscilla
clarify

[lovemyboys]

It is one thing for the child to bear criminal responsibility for their parents actions. However, it is quite another to give a child benefits that he or she does not rightfully deserve.

........

She has a couple more years in her school program, but the government didn't care. She was in out of country only 2 days short of the requirements for extending her student visa and she was about to be arrested.

......

The only reason why I mention this is to point out that the US is expected to extend more grace its illegal immigrants than any other country.

 

 

This is SO true. The US is expected to put up with all this while other countries have very stringent, xenophilic policies in place. In most countries, your child doesn't become a citizen just because you happened to give birth within their borders. Here in the US, we grant citizenship and then the parents are here, the siblings, the extended family .... ??? For the simple geography of giving birth.

 

 

The amnesty program back in the 80s didn't eliminate the problem. All the social programs in place haven't eliminated the problem.

 

And the problem, as I see it, is that without some sort of legitimate status (visa, going through legal steps) these folks are subject to victimization wrt housing, employment, finances, medical care, education, their very security of living -- largely because they are reluctant to be very visible in our society. In addition, they have access to resources that are already stretched thin for legal citizens. The old canard that illegal immigrants are taking the jobs that no one wants is not true, as has been shown time and again.

 

It's unsustainable. How do you justify this to the people who are abiding our laws, waiting in line and going the legal route? What does this say to these folks about how important it is to obey the law once they're living here. Most illegal immigrants are decent, hard-working people.

 

But how do we deal with those who aren't? More and more, we are seeing traffic deaths due to illegally obtained drivers' licenses. There are out-of-control gangs, like mara salvatruca. Their victims are not just fellow gang members, but innocent Americans. A good portion of the sex-trafficking is done by illegal organized crime members from various countries. Evil people prey on folks who are so desperate to come here that they will pay dearly to come illegally. Perhaps lax and ambiguous policies contribute to that, leaving a glimmer of hope for the possibility that it's worth whatever it takes. My heart breaks for those poor young girls and their families who believe that even though it's being done illegally, that it'll work out somehow.

 

And now there's a movement to put everyone on the voters' rolls if their names are on any lists, drivers' licenses, you name it.

 

But OP is talking about education. I agree with a couple folks here who've said that if the student is old enough and bright enough to attend college, then they should do it legally and honestly.

 

Otherwise, really, what does it all mean? Individual stories are heart-wrenching in their details of why they left, what they've overcome. But the aggregate on a national scale is unsustainable and will continue to be so if we don't do something. Another amnesty is not the answer. People coming in whether on tankers or makeshift boats or through tunnels or smuggled in, overstaying visas, getting day-passes to give birth in an American hospital, whatever, need to be sent home immediately, not detained and just released into the US.

 

What we need to realize is that there is no kindness in the current lax attitudes in illegal immigrant policies. The very people that are supposedly helped and the very ones who suffer the most.

[lovemyboys]

I am from Canada, so, yes, I spoke English when I came here. My dh is from France .......

 

In short, for those who missed my reply, I am in the "round 'em up and deport 'em" camp. If this country would just ENFORCE the laws already in place (and get rid of the terrible 'have a baby, and it's a citizen' law), we would avoid much of the debate on assistance, school eligibility and what to do if/when someone IS set to be deported, but has an anchor baby. Harsh, I know, but it's the fault of the parents, NOT this country. We do need to educate (through high school) and vaccinate, etc. those who are here, but if we deported them it wouldn't be an issue. I HATE that my taxes are paying for illegals' education and health care while many of us here legally 'get the shaft' because of programs in place to help 'them'.

 

My dh and I are both naturalized citizens and we 'did our time' waiting for paperwork to be completed.... 5 years of paperwork waiting for me and 9 for dh. This is a VERY hot topic for me and I am SO annoyed that our elected officials are not enforcing the laws as they stand. We did the right thing, and it p*isses us off that those who don't are getting a 'blind eye' from the gov. and being allowed to continue living here.

 

Where I am, we have mostly Mexican illegals with some from African nations thrown in (they come by the hundreds on a work visa to work at a local company then leave and the gov't has no clue where they are). The whole system needs to be revamped. The more this goes on, and the more I hear of 'special programs' funded by MY tax dollars, the more angry I get. Very angry.

 

This is a pet peeve for me too. How do we justify this lax attitude when many people are following our laws and waiting their turn? And what does it say about following our laws period when the reason "you're" here at all is because you came illegally?

 

The previous amnesty DID NOT work, there are more people breaking our immigration laws than ever before. With no consequences, there's no deterrence. Anyone who's been through the process or who lives in the southern and border states is more keenly aware of what a mess this ridiculous situation is.

 

And I would argue that the attitude isn't harsh, it's realistic. The lack of any real policy here opens these folks up to all kinds of injustice at the hands of opportunistic crooks -- employers, landlords, money lenders/ informal "neighborhood" banks, medical access, even simple everyday stuff, you name it.

 

When people come here as illegal aliens their lives are always insecure .... whether they live in fear of being found out and deported, whether they don't have access to the services and life that legal residents have, whether they never achieve the level of success that illegal status prevents them from attaining or even being aware of .... There's nothing compassionate or fair in consigning people to that kind of existence and amnesty is not the answer.

 

If for nothing else, the laws need to be enforced.

[tex-mex]

But how do we deal with those who aren't? More and more, we are seeing traffic deaths due to illegally obtained drivers' licenses. There are out-of-control gangs, like mara salvatruca. Their victims are not just fellow gang members, but innocent Americans. A good portion of the sex-trafficking is done by illegal organized crime members from various countries. Evil people prey on folks who are so desperate to come here that they will pay dearly to come illegally. Perhaps lax and ambiguous policies contribute to that, leaving a glimmer of hope for the possibility that it's worth whatever it takes. My heart breaks for those poor young girls and their families who believe that even though it's being done illegally, that it'll work out somehow.

 

And now there's a movement to put everyone on the voters' rolls if their names are on any lists, drivers' licenses, you name it.

 

But OP is talking about education. I agree with a couple folks here who've said that if the student is old enough and bright enough to attend college, then they should do it legally and honestly.

 

Otherwise, really, what does it all mean? Individual stories are heart-wrenching in their details of why they left, what they've overcome. But the aggregate on a national scale is unsustainable and will continue to be so if we don't do something. Another amnesty is not the answer. People coming in whether on tankers or makeshift boats or through tunnels or smuggled in, overstaying visas, getting day-passes to give birth in an American hospital, whatever, need to be sent home immediately, not detained and just released into the US.

 

What we need to realize is that there is no kindness in the current lax attitudes in illegal immigrant policies. The very people that are supposedly helped and the very ones who suffer the most.

 

The issue of illegal immigration is an age old question -- and not just our country deals with it. Personally, I feel it will not be solved. But will allow our govt to deal with it via enforcing a "national" ID card or better yet... the UN to issue out a "global" ID card. Pretty soon, borders will be dissolved and we'll be like the EU on one type of money system. But honestly, that could be like 30 years from now. A national or global ID would solve identity theft and security screenings. Egads!! :001_huh:

[BakersDozen]

but I will say that if people know their children will not be able to attend school, they will probably be less likely to come here illegally.

:iagree:

 

I attended college in AZ and had to fight to get any financial aid. Again and again I was denied in-state tution (I was from NM). Every year I was passed by on scholarships/financial aid for reasons that still make me see red (as one counselor told me, "If your last name was "Martinez" instead of "Martin" then you would get $."). I paid my own way, had not a dime of outside help from family, earned a 4.0, was voted highest ranked senior and outstanding senior, and was chosen to address the graduating class. I received nothing from the university as far as financial aid. The very thought of illegal students getting a penny of financial aid and being given in-state status is infuriating.

 

This topic comes on the very day I received yet another request from the university for a donation for scholarships. Yeah, right.

[Nestof3]

I find it very rude to expect taxpayers to not only pay for increasing problems with its own citizens (overcrowded prisons, education problems), economic crisis and for defending out nation, but now we are supposed to pay for those who are not even in this country legally?

 

No way. They should be rounded up and sent home.

[st_claire]

They should be rounded up and sent home.

 

Rounded up? They are people, not cattle. And the US is their home, the OP said she was talking about teens who have lived here for years. I'm sure this is the only home some of them even remember.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Rounded up? They are people, not cattle. And the US is their home, the OP said she was talking about teens who have lived here for years. I'm sure this is the only home some of them even remember.

 

This is a valid point as well. I am just hoping that we do something to curtail the flow of illegal immigration. It is a very difficult situation:(

[tdeveson]

Pretty soon, borders will be dissolved and we'll be like the EU on one type of money system. But honestly, that could be like 30 years from now. A national or global ID would solve identity theft and security screenings. Egads!! :001_huh:

 

That will never happen in this country in your lifetime or mine. IMO, the atmosphere in this country right now is as nationalistic as was Germany in the 1930's.

[Peek a Boo]

Rounded up? They are people, not cattle. And the US is their home, the OP said she was talking about teens who have lived here for years. I'm sure this is the only home some of them even remember.

 

Yes-- Rounded up if they can't turn themselves in and instead decide to continue breaking the law. When people start acting like criminals they lose the privilege of being treated as law-abiding citizens.

 

Whether this is the "only home" they remember is irrelevant. Once someone is aware that what they are doing is illegal they are expected to comply with the law or endure the consequences. In this case, it is deportation: the authorities will find you, arrest you, and deport you. If you [illegal immigrant] don't want to be "rounded up" then voluntarily turn yourself in and show just how much like cattle you are NOT.

[Peek a Boo]

That will never happen in this country in your lifetime or mine. IMO, the atmosphere in this country right now is as nationalistic as was Germany in the 1930's.

 

I actually agree quite a bit with this, but probably for different reasons. ;)

[Cera]

I don't think children/families with an illegal status should be given any government assistance - education, medical, social services, etc. If people in this country illegally are turned in, denied services, the draw to come here in the first place would be eliminated.

 

I really think that people found to be in any country illegally should at the least be deported back to their home country.

 

:iagree:

 

I also don't believe we should grant automatic citizenship to those born in the US whose parents are here illegally.

 

The one exception to the rules (sort of) that I could see is a waiver of the wait requirements for those were here involuntarily as children and willingly returned to their home country once they reached adulthood.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Cera

[cathmom]

This is a valid point as well. I am just hoping that we do something to curtail the flow of illegal immigration. It is a very difficult situation:(

 

We did. We crashed the economy.

[tex-mex]

That will never happen in this country in your lifetime or mine. IMO, the atmosphere in this country right now is as nationalistic as was Germany in the 1930's.

 

Hopefully history will not repeat itself with the forced rounding up and deportation of legal Mexican-Americans as they did in the 1930's. This happened to my father and his family.

 

The state of California passed the Apology Act for the 1930s Mexican Repatriation Program in 2005, officially recognizing the "unconstitutional removal and coerced emigration of United States citizens and legal residents of Mexican descent" and apologizing to residents of California "for the fundamental violations of their basic civil liberties and constitutional rights committed during the period of illegal deportation and coerced emigration"

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-04-1930s-deportees-cover_x.htm

 

I truly hope in the midst of our current recession we do not use our fear to scapegoat groups like both Germany and the USA did in the 1930's. My mother-in-law recalls being told as a child to stop speaking in her native German language outside the house -- this was during the late 30's. We rounded up legal residents who were of Japanese descent, took their money and possessions, and rounded them up in camps. Eugenics (Planned Parenthood) was being touted in the USA as the way to preserve the white race from being "mongrelized" by immigrants. Native American children were still being forced to attend govt run schools in the 1930's. Let's not make a repeat of nationalism from the 1930's, IMO. :glare:

[tex-mex]

We did. We crashed the economy.

 

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[asta]

I haven't read any of the other replies, but here is my stance.

 

Firstly, what sort of financial aid are we talking about? Private money, well they can make whatever rules they want. Public money shouldn't be used for any educational financial aid for anyone IMO. So in this case their legal status in irrelevant for me.

 

But since a large part of this discussion is about legal status, I will give me thoughts on that also. I think private property rights should be respected. If someone wants to buy land, and someone who owns it wants to sell it to them, then they should be allowed to buy it and have the same rights as any landowner. The government ought to not have the ability to dictate who can live where.

 

Regarding the issue of breaking the law, no court would find these teens responsible for breaking any law, since they were too young at the time they moved. Additionally, breaking the law is not necisary nor sufficient to deserve punishment if that law is morally wrong. A law is not rightious simply because it is a law. I think the goverment establishing laws that basically render all persons and property to be property of the state is morally wrong.

 

Thoughts? Also feel free to PM me as any replies may get lost in the super long thread.

 

I think a larger point is being missed in all of this. Public (and private) universities are funded, in large part, via tax dollars (or, in the case of private schools, publicly awarded grants for various things). The US is *already* paying the bill. It is irrelevant whether or not someone receives "student aid" - the full cost of education is not paid via tuition.

 

That will never happen in this country in your lifetime or mine. IMO, the atmosphere in this country right now is as nationalistic as was Germany in the 1930's.

 

Oh, PLEASE tell me this was sarcasm.

 

Or at least rent some Leni Reifenstahl movies and get a real look at what Nazi Germany really looked like. While you're protesting the mass burning of books in front of your local barnes and noble.

 

 

a

[st_claire]

Yes-- Rounded up if they can't turn themselves in and instead decide to continue breaking the law. When people start acting like criminals they lose the privilege of being treated as law-abiding citizens.

 

Whether this is the "only home" they remember is irrelevant. Once someone is aware that what they are doing is illegal they are expected to comply with the law or endure the consequences. In this case, it is deportation: the authorities will find you, arrest you, and deport you. If you [illegal immigrant] don't want to be "rounded up" then voluntarily turn yourself in and show just how much like cattle you are NOT.

 

 

Why should they turn themselves in? Breaking an unjust law is not wrong. I agree with the previous poster about how nationalistic the US is right now. Should Anne Frank have turned herself in? She was breaking the law. People certainly wanted Jews to be "rounded up". Be aware of whose political company you share.

[st_claire]

I think a larger point is being missed in all of this. Public (and private) universities are funded, in large part, via tax dollars (or, in the case of private schools, publicly awarded grants for various things). The US is *already* paying the bill. It is irrelevant whether or not someone receives "student aid" - the full cost of education is not paid via tuition.

 

 

 

Oh, PLEASE tell me this was sarcasm.

 

Or at least rent some Leni Reifenstahl movies and get a real look at what Nazi Germany really looked like. While you're protesting the mass burning of books in front of your local barnes and noble.

 

 

a

 

Right, and I think education should not be payed for by the gov in any way shape or form. As I said, it would render this whole debate moot.

 

 

Unfortunately, I do think that the poster was right about the shift in the political climate in the US right now. Fierce devotion to gov where people who disagree are labelled traitors. Fear of safety being grossly inflated by the media. Personal freedoms given up due to these things. I mean people can now be held indefinatly without a trial. "The land of the free" is about as accurate as "work will set you free". It is very sad, but very true. I hope people open their eyes before things progress further in a facist direction. But with talk of conscription and civilian disarmerment, I worry a great deal.

[Danestress]

Our law allows them a free and equal education up til 12th grade -- then dumps them in the street to be in poverty as an adult. What if a small % of those dumped out of public school with no chance to succeed in life are brilliant young minds -- one of them with the future ability to find a cure for cancer?

 

I'm confused by what you mean by this. Are you saying that everyone who doesn't go to college is bound for a life of poverty and no chance of success? I don't think that's true, and if it is even partly true, I think THAT is the problem America faces - that a high school education is without meaning and leaves one with no chance of success. As a society I think we need to be exploring why we think that without that additional four years, people have nothing to offer, and I think there should be other routes to the job market- apprenticeships, trade schools, and just plain getting a job and learning the ropes.

 

Or perhaps you mean that as undocumented residents without legal status, they are unable to find lucrative employment. But that would be true whether they get a college education or not - most students would graduate with the same legal status they began with. Either way, they still end up with an education that does not necessarily allow them to find appropriate employment.

[Pixie]

I'm confused by what you mean by this. Are you saying that everyone who doesn't go to college is bound for a life of poverty and no chance of success? I don't think that's true, and if it is even partly true, I think THAT is the problem America faces - that a high school education is without meaning and leaves one with no chance of success. As a society I think we need to be exploring why we think that without that additional four years, people have nothing to offer, and I think there should be other routes to the job market- apprenticeships, trade schools, and just plain getting a job and learning the ropes.

 

Or perhaps you mean that as undocumented residents without legal status, they are unable to find lucrative employment. But that would be true whether they get a college education or not - most students would graduate with the same legal status they began with. Either way, they still end up with an education that does not necessarily allow them to find appropriate employment.

 

The difference in their cases in that with a college eductaion, they will now fit in the categories that are able to apply for legal status, with only an high school education at this time they do not. So they are between a rock and a hard place. I don't think they should be a ble to stay here illegally, but I definitely think there needs to be a reform that takes into account the fact that those now grown kids didn't choose to come here (not like a 4yo for example has a say) and allow them a path to apply for legal status once they are of age.

[Lolly]

Well. I am afraid I am a hard liner. I do not believe that we should be providing services for illegal aliens. I do not believe that we should be paying for their elementary or high school educations. Therefore, the question of providing them with money for college is probably obvious.

[Haiku]

Breaking an unjust law is not wrong.

 

Is it unjust to say that people must be here legally?

 

I once resided overseas illegally for several months. I knew what I was doing was against the law, but since I planned to be there only a few months and wasn't seeking employment, I chose to bypass the visa requirement. Had I been found out and deported, I wouldn't have said they were being unjust.

 

I do believe that children brought here illegally should have means to seek citizenship when they come of age. But the idea that you need to be here legally is not unjust.

 

Tara

[st_claire]

Is it unjust to say that people must be here legally?

 

I once resided overseas illegally for several months. I knew what I was doing was against the law, but since I planned to be there only a few months and wasn't seeking employment, I chose to bypass the visa requirement. Had I been found out and deported, I wouldn't have said they were being unjust.

 

I do believe that children brought here illegally should have means to seek citizenship when they come of age. But the idea that you need to be here legally is not unjust.

 

Tara

 

Yes, I think it is unjust. Read my previous post. I believe that people belong to themselves, not the gov. And I believe in private property. If someone wants to live here and someone rents or sells them a place to live, what business is it of the gov? Does the gov own the private home they live in? I don't think so. Does the gov own the people? I don't think so. So the gov should have no say in it.

[StartingOver]

I"m going to be one of the harsh ones. These children and/or their parents broke the laws of the US. Some kind of consequence for criminal activity needs to be implemented.

 

People in any country illegally need to go back to their country of origin and fill out the paperwork, pay the fees, etc and come immigrate legally.

 

:iagree:

[Lolly]

We did. We crashed the economy.

 

Here, this is very true. We have FAR fewer illegal immigrants here than we did a few years ago. It is still a problem. Our school system is still about to crash from the economic weight of the non English speaking children. (Ds's K class was 50% non English speaking in the school we are zoned for.) It is still illegal at our mall for under 19 yo citizens to be without a parent after 6. Not even if you are attending the local community college and do not live with your parents. (Enacted because of the huge numbers of Hispanic gang members.) But, the numbers are drastically reducing.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Lolly

[Haiku]

I believe that people belong to themselves, not the gov. And I believe in private property. If someone wants to live here and someone rents or sells them a place to live, what business is it of the gov? Does the gov own the private home they live in? I don't think so. Does the gov own the people? I don't think so. So the gov should have no say in it.

 

So do you think the idea of citizenship is wrong?

 

Do you think the government has any jurisdiction in protecting citizens from dangerous people, or should anyone be allowed to live anywhere they choose? For example, should the government be able to deny known criminals the right to move to the US?

 

(Not trying to debate here, just interested in your opinion.)

 

Tara

[st_claire]

So do you think the idea of citizenship is wrong?

 

Do you think the government has any jurisdiction in protecting citizens from dangerous people, or should anyone be allowed to live anywhere they choose? For example, should the government be able to deny known criminals the right to move to the US?

 

(Not trying to debate here, just interested in your opinion.)

 

Tara

 

 

I think citizenship shouldn't exist, yes.

 

I think the gov should protect people, any people who live within it's boundaries. If someone is a dangerous criminal, they should be in jail. If someone has paid their debt to society, they should be able to live anywhere.

 

No problem, I like giving my opinions :lol:

[tex-mex]

I'm confused by what you mean by this.

 

Or perhaps you mean that as undocumented residents without legal status, they are unable to find lucrative employment. But that would be true whether they get a college education or not - most students would graduate with the same legal status they began with. Either way, they still end up with an education that does not necessarily allow them to find appropriate employment.

 

Sorry. I meant the second point... and yes, this is the sticky wicket. Supreme Court ruled it was injust to not allow a free and appropriate education to k-12 -- but did not consider what to do with those undocumented students past the 12th grade. They become "3rd class" people (non citizens) who have to get illegal ID to work and pay taxes. The book I read talks about this quandry for this group. Really makes one think.

[tex-mex]

The difference in their cases in that with a college eductaion, they will now fit in the categories that are able to apply for legal status, with only an high school education at this time they do not. So they are between a rock and a hard place. I don't think they should be a ble to stay here illegally, but I definitely think there needs to be a reform that takes into account the fact that those now grown kids didn't choose to come here (not like a 4yo for example has a say) and allow them a path to apply for legal status once they are of age.

 

Thanks Pixie -- you said it better than I could.

[tex-mex]

 

Oh, PLEASE tell me this was sarcasm.

 

Or at least rent some Leni Reifenstahl movies and get a real look at what Nazi Germany really looked like. While you're protesting the mass burning of books in front of your local barnes and noble.

 

 

a

 

I think she was being sarcastic... but on the other hand, the country's mindset is grouping themselves up for a repeat of what you and I have described. Hysteria/fear will cause folks to lash out in regrettable actions. History tends to repeat itself. :confused:

[Kristin in Hawaii]

I do not agree with free education or medical care for legal or illegal immigrants in our country. (yes, that is a period following that sentence.) We can not afford basic services for our own citizens at this point. We definitely cannot afford them for illegals. In emergency medical care, stabilize and ship them out... and send the bill to their home country.

 

We are facing a likely economical depression in this country which is worse than we have ever seen... taxes have to go up and drastic cuts to state and federal budgets. Citizens have to be willing to work picking fruit and working the jobs illegals are doing now. Times are tough.

[Kristin in Hawaii]

Most, if not all, schools benefit from being in the U.S. with subsidized infrastructure, financial aid, etcetera. No "in-state tuition" -- they should not even be allowed to attend any school if they are here illegally.

 

I'm actually compassionate -- but also aware of how screwed we are financially at this point.

[Haiku]

I do not agree with free education or medical care for legal or illegal immigrants in our country.

 

So if someone gets a visa to come to this country, their children should not be able to attend free public schools? One of my kids was not a citizen when we first adopted him. He should have been barred from schools, even though he had a green card?

 

Tara

[jujsky]

So if someone gets a visa to come to this country, their children should not be able to attend free public schools? One of my kids was not a citizen when we first adopted him. He should have been barred from schools, even though he had a green card?

 

Tara

 

There is a big difference between someone who is here legally (green card) verses someone who is here with no documentation. Someone here with a green card is here legally, can work legally, and pay taxes. They are entitled to free public schools. Someone with a green card did not break any laws by coming here. Someone without a green card did break the law.

[Mynyel]

I think it benefits our society to have educated citizens.

 

 

 

I have to say it.....our government has been and supposedly is highly educated, where has that gotten us? :tongue_smilie:

 

I also think that if someone does not pass their classes in college, then perhaps they should not be eligible for for more financial aid. OTOH, I think there should be an allowance for 1 failing class.

 

 

 

You have to maintain a 2.0 grade point average to keep your fin aid.

 

Rounded up? They are people, not cattle. And the US is their home, the OP said she was talking about teens who have lived here for years. I'm sure this is the only home some of them even remember.

 

It is easy to get lost in a sea of responses and lose sight of the original post...

If you have proper documentation you get to go, if you don't you don't get to go. Why does it have to be complicated?

 

 

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[Joker]

I think citizenship shouldn't exist, yes.

 

I think the gov should protect people, any people who live within it's boundaries. If someone is a dangerous criminal, they should be in jail. If someone has paid their debt to society, they should be able to live anywhere.

 

No problem, I like giving my opinions :lol:

 

If citizenship doesn't exist then who / what is the gov? If there are no citizens who determines who gov is and what they protect?

[Danestress]

college degree or not, undocumented aliens, in most cases, have to actually leave the country and apply for visa's from abroad? And then often wait for years? I don't think there is, under the current law, a real advantage for most undocumented aliens to having a college degree. If they want a visa (and someday a green card) don't they have to almost always return to their "home country" and apply for it?

 

I know there was a proposed law a couple of years ago that would have provided a way for children of illegal immigrant to apply for citizenship and that college was part of that plan, but it failed.

 

I'm not arguing against a reasonable path to citizenship for the children of undocumented aliens, though. I just was voicing a concern that perhaps it's not good policy to collect taxes on wage earners in this country so that it can be distributed to everyone who wants to go to college. I don't think that a college degree is a right the way that a primary education ought to be. For citizens or aliens, legal or not.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Danestress