From the Washington Post: More of the best and brightest to CCs

[Jane in NC]

Here is the link.

 

The CCs in my neck of the woods do not offer any honors courses, so I feel that the programs discussed in the article are not widely available. But they may be a cost saver for some.

[Miss Marple]

This is a timely article! I was just discussing this very thing with dh the other day with regard to ds#2. We have a local university that has an honors program that includes all expenses (room, board, books, fees, extra spending money). Ds is currently attending there as a concurrent high school student. Based on his scores, he already qualifies for the program and I would assume he would be accepted into it after graduation. So we were weighing the costs of 2 years of "free" college then transferring to a more rigorous university hopefully receiving transfer scholarships. Any way we looked at it, it would be a significant savings.

 

The savings issue, though, also needs to be weighed against the quality of the education, IMO. This university, while it meets a great need in our community, doesn't attract the top notch professors, and in fact, many are temporary teachers. The student population is very similar to a CC. The courses my dss have taken (ds#1 graduated with 36 concurrent hours from this university with a 4.0) are definitely not as rigorous as ds#1's courses at OU.

 

My quandry now is how to make the decision. While the savings would be fantastic, I'm worried that the foundation would not be firm enough to move into a more rigorous institution without some problems. Has anyone else gone through this decision making process?

[TravelingChris]

I think the things you need to consider are both the future plans of the student and their personality. As you could see in the article, the program that has students transferring to very good colleges and university is highly selective, only 25 accepted from over 300 applicants and I bet hardly anyone qualified to apply. These programs are not available at many cc's. But for a highly dedicated and tenacious worker, cc could work out well. That isn't the typical student at a cc thought. Also, it really depends on your future career. Going for science, engineering, competive professional careers- I wouldn't risk it. Going for a typical college major like communications, education, English, etc, maybe.

[creekland]

I know the one cc class I'm having my senior son take this year seems more like a high school course from my high school days. There's no way it compares at all to my 4 year college experience. It also is NOT an honors program - nor is there one like it offered here.

 

Having that experience is definitely making us head toward 4 year schools for all three of our boys. They will still take a cc course or two while homeschooling, but there's no way I consider it a good substitute for post high school education. Sometimes cost does equal quality (to an extent anyway).

 

And, of course, this is just my experience with our local cc. Others may vary.

[Miss Marple]

I've found that some of the classes the boys have taken are more like Honors high school courses while others have been very college credit worthy (meaning more like my university experience and my ds#1's experience at university right now).

 

I think Christina made a good point when mentioning that the CC route might be best for liberal arts while not so good for the sciences. Our experience has been that the math and science courses are less rigorous, but oftentimes more difficult. DS#1 has finally agreed with me that a good professor can make a difficult subject easy whereas a poor professor can make an easy subject difficult. And this is where I have the dilemma: the professors in the sciences here are not nearly as good as those at the more rigorous universities - probably because of funding and lack of research potential. Has anyone else noticed this or is this a local phenomena?

[CatInIL]

My son took physics at the local cc last year. His professor was a retired MIT physics PhD who had worked at Fermi Lab and Bell Labs. Also, he instilled a sense of wonderment about physics to my son, who now says he "feels" physics all around him all the time.

 

I can't say that that is the caliber of all the teachers at this cc, but I can't express how glad I was that my son was in his class.

[Sandra in NC]

My son took physics at the local cc last year. His professor was a retired MIT physics PhD who had worked at Fermi Lab and Bell Labs. Also, he instilled a sense of wonderment about physics to my son, who now says he "feels" physics all around him all the time.

 

I can't say that that is the caliber of all the teachers at this cc, but I can't express how glad I was that my son was in his class.

 

Our experience has been similar. Some of the classes at our CC are worthwhile, with knowledgeable, experienced teachers. Many of the instructors have outside jobs/practical experience that enhances their teaching. I am taking a class at CC myself and I've learned more in it than in any of my bachelors/masters degree courses.

 

At any school - even the finest - there will be good instructors and bad; worthwhile classes and waste-of-time ones.

 

For true savings, my advice is to use AP and CLEP for as many of the general education requirements as possible and take college courses for your major.

 

Sandra

http://www.freewebs.com/officesolutions/clepfaqs.htm

[Tullia]

Our experience with the local cc has been positive with regard to faculty. Many of ds' instructors are highly qualified, and although the majority of courses offered are technical/vocational there are several degree options designed for eventual transfer to four-year institutions. It may be that the proximity of two national labs and the AFRL make our situation somewhat different than the norm.

[TravelingChris]

I think you are right, Martha. I know that much of the science and math teaching at the local CC in space coast, FL was considered good too. That is because they had a lot of retired and part time teachers associated with NASA , the Air Force Space Program, and another highly technical AF agency (AFTAC) plus large concentrations of high tech firms firms.

[Halftime Hope]

1) Their idea of the best and brightest (<<The average Rouse scholar has a 3.7 grade-point average and a combined SAT score of 1596 out of a possible 2400 points. >>) isn't very best or bright compared with what many of the families here on the board are reporting. There are a fair number of kids here who are NMSQT C, SF, and F for goodness sake!

 

2) How would a kid above those scores fit in with a peer group that is made up of students at that level? Would they be limited in a way that they wouldn't at a more selective school? What about how few transfer student slots there are at the selective schools.

 

3) And finally, yeah, I'm right there with the girl and her family considering the pros and cons of debt. No matter how bright my student is, I don't think I will have served her well by allowing her to incur $$$ of debt.

 

It's a hard decision!

[Nan in Mass]

I think it depends on the major and the amount of debt. I think those super bright ones should not go to CC if there is a way for them to go someplace else unless they are going to major in music or art or save-the-world or something else notoriously low-paying and have to shoulder the whole four year burden themselves. Often, in addition to an education, those expensive schools also provide spouses and a pack of life-long friends. That is worth quite a lot of debt in my opinion. I don't know what happens to the super bright ones who have been homeschooled and then go to CC. Maybe they don't get discouraged. But we watched several of our friends and our children's friends go to CC, feel that it was just more of their super-boring high school years, and decide that now that it was optional, they would opt out. Now they are drifting. Because of all that, I would only go the CC transfer route if I had to, or if I did it as a means of finishing college early. The tricky bit, of course, is deciding how much debt is too much debt, and deciding if your child can endure going to CC for two years with possibly unchallenging classmates, classes, and teachers, or if they are going to decide not to do it.

-Nan

[K-FL]

But we watched several of our friends and our children's friends go to CC, feel that it was just more of their super-boring high school years, and decide that now that it was optional, they would opt out. Now they are drifting.

-Nan

 

I've seen this with average ps kids too. I had a ps dad tell me that his hs sophomore ds had "senioritis!" Why make this kid, who's bright enough & involved in school stuff, suffer though 4 more years of those pre-req. classes (2yrs-hs, 2yrs-college) when you can do them once & be done? It's just one of the reasons we've gone the dual-enrollment route to keep dc from having to repeat classes when they're ready to get on with life.

[Halftime Hope]

. Often, in addition to an education, those expensive schools also provide spouses and a pack of life-long friends. That is worth quite a lot of debt in my opinion.

 

Thanks for expressing this so nicely, Nan. I was trying to have this same convo w/ a dear friend yesterday, and it didn't come out nearly as nicely. She didn't think any worse of me b/c her dd is an exceptional young woman as well, so she understands my heart concerns on this, but you've put it much more graciously and positively than I could find words for.

 

Thanks!

[JWSJ]

The public 4 year uni system in NC has a formal transfer policy of accepting college credits from NC CCs. For example, they've standardized all 1st/2nd year level math courses no matter where you attend, so the transition to a 4 year uni is minimal academicly.

 

This is what has boosted NC CC attendence, imo.

 

I've attended both CC and uni in NC and this system works well.

[K-FL]

The public 4 year uni system in NC has a formal transfer policy of accepting college credits from NC CCs. For example, they've standardized all 1st/2nd year level math courses no matter where you attend, so the transition to a 4 year uni is minimal academically.

 

This is what has boosted NC CC attendance, imo.

 

I've attended both CC and uni in NC and this system works well.

 

Same in FL. With the $/hr difference between U & CC, I'm sure lots of folks on self-pay have chosen the cc.

[Jane in NC]

The public 4 year uni system in NC has a formal transfer policy of accepting college credits from NC CCs. For example, they've standardized all 1st/2nd year level math courses no matter where you attend, so the transition to a 4 year uni is minimal academicly.

 

This is what has boosted NC CC attendence, imo.

 

I've attended both CC and uni in NC and this system works well.

 

The articulation agreement makes the courses equivalent on paper. Individual instructors/professors are another kettle of fish, in my opinion.

 

One of the arguments that one hears in favor of CCs is the smaller class size and (hopefully) more individual attention. This has worked to my son's favor in the three science classes that he has taken at our local CC in the concurrent enrollment program. His history prof's lecture based courses would probably be the same whether there were twenty students in the class or two hundred.

 

I feel where the peer issue has entered the picture is in English. Last spring, my son was in an English 111 course with a very demanding instructor. On the one hand, it was a great experience because it forced my son to raise the bar on his writing. The one issue that was troublesome, however, was that of "peer reviews". Granted, my son wrote papers on some esoteric subjects, but it seems that his "peers" did not understand what he was writing about and hence could not offer much in the way of criticism, either good or bad. His peers in English 112 have been far worse this semester. The presentations in this class were sub-par, according to my son. Class discussions are difficult if not impossible in these circumstances when students fail to do their work.

 

My son has speculated that the science courses at the CC are better since they are not a specific requirement for an AA, whereas English 111 is required.

 

I also do not know if I can state unequivocally that my son's Chemistry courses are the same as those offered at UNC-CH or NCSU since we lack first hand experience with these university courses. I do feel that they were better than what I personally could have offered at home.

 

We have decided that my son will not participate in the concurrent enrollment program during the upcoming term, his last semester of his senior year. He will take two AP exams in May, so I would rather he focus on those, his senior project, and read more Great Books. We had discussed the possibility of registering him for a music theory course as well as literature. After being completely disappointed in this semester's English course, I cannot, in good conscience, have him potentially waste time again. In terms of transportation time, taking one course (music theory) would take too much out of the day's rhythm.

 

Do I regret that he participated in concurrent enrollment? No, for a number of reasons. But I would recommend that parents and students learn what they can about individual instructors before registering for courses. (And not from "Rate My Professor"!)

 

Jane

[Catherine]

I am an MD, and I came from a quite modest childhood, financially-my parents could not have afforded to spend a cent to send me to any college. I borrowed for both college and medical school, as did my dh, from a similar modest background.

 

We married during residency in the 1990's when our combined debt would have bought us a decent house. I have never worked full time,since finishing residency, and he is an academic. So for doctors, we are relatively lower onthe income scale than many, and we paid off our debt early by living reasonably, bought a house, and have savings for all the the things we need it for-retirement, kids college, etc.

 

I think discouraging kids from incurring any educational debt is not always a good approach. An education is an investment. Particularly for a child who is pursuing a career in a higher paid field, debt is fine. If my son goes to conservatory, which he might, I'd try much harder to find a cheaper option if we could not fund it from savings, because musicians are not as highly paid.

[Alice]

Virginia also has an agreement with Virginia state schools for community college grads. Considering that you could end up at some very good schools (UVA, William and Mary, Va Tech) if you go this route and for much less I can see how it's tempting. Just looking it up.....cost of community college per year would be about 3390 total vs. 21,000+ at UVA or William and Mary per year. They bill it as "guaranteed admission" if you have an associate's degree from a community college but just briefly glancing at the agreements there are quite a few other requirements (for example mininum GPAs required that differs per college but 3.4 at UVA or 3.6 at W&M). Also they mention that this is not guaranteed admission to a specific program, for example, engineering.

 

Still, it's interesting and I can see why many of the people in the Wash Post article (in VA) might be interested in this.

[Sandra in NC]

I've seen this with average ps kids too. I had a ps dad tell me that his hs sophomore ds had "senioritis!" Why make this kid, who's bright enough & involved in school stuff, suffer though 4 more years of those pre-req. classes (2yrs-hs, 2yrs-college) when you can do them once & be done? It's just one of the reasons we've gone the dual-enrollment route to keep dc from having to repeat classes when they're ready to get on with life.

 

It's the reason we're doing CLEP, too. My 19 yo is at the local community college. He earned 27 credits (non-core, not good for much!) at Virginia Commonwealth University last year and it cost us about $30,000 out-of-state.

 

He has earned 29 credits this semester alone by taking CLEP tests along with a full load at the community college. He'll get his AA this spring and transfer to a state school. We are making sure he takes only the CLEPs that are accepted by the 4 year school he plans to attend, so transferring those credits should not be an issue.

 

More about CLEP

 

Sandra

PS: Those 29 credits cost us less than $2000, including books!

Edited December 12, 2009 by Sandra in NC

[JWSJ]

I also do not know if I can state unequivocally that my son's Chemistry courses are the same as those offered at UNC-CH or NCSU since we lack first hand experience with these university courses. I do feel that they were better than what I personally could have offered at home.

 

 

I've taken Chemistry I at both the local CC and NCSU. The local CC had newer labs, better equipment, and the prof also taught at a local private college. He gave out his home phone for help. The tech for lab portion of the course was a full-time employee.

 

At NCSU, the classes were much larger, if you needed help you visited a TA, and the techs for the labs were higher level students that were barely organized. The class was much less enjoyable and I didn't get as much out of it.

 

This was just the first level Chem course. I felt at NCSU it was more of a weed out process rather than an educational experience. The profs at the uni had other responsibilites also (maybe research, etc.)

[Gwen in VA]

I think discouraging kids from incurring any educational debt is not always a good approach. An education is an investment.

 

I don't want to sidetrack this into a discussion of college debt, but I do think the decision to go HEAVILY into debt for college should not be taken lightly. There is a huge difference between someone who is planning on going into medicine or law or engineering graduating with $10K of debt and a student who is planning on going into teaching or music graduating with $75K of debt.

 

Before acquiring educational debt, many factors should be taken into account, among which are expected income post-graduation and expected level of debt.

 

I heard somewhere that the average college student is now graduating with educational debt of something in the mid-20K range. That is significant debt for many people, and that is only the average -- many students are graduating with $75K or more. That debt will have long-term consequences.

[LibraryLover]

I know a lovely young lady who transferred into Wellesley from a local MA community college.

[Kareni]

The articulation agreement makes the courses equivalent on paper. Individual instructors/professors are another kettle of fish, in my opinion.

 

This is very true.

 

One of the arguments that one hears in favor of CCs is the smaller class size and (hopefully) more individual attention. This has worked to my son's favor in the three science classes that he has taken at our local CC in the concurrent enrollment program. His history prof's lecture based courses would probably be the same whether there were twenty students in the class or two hundred.

 

My daughter took a number of community college classes before beginning her freshman year at a four year college. She was definitely well served by the smaller classes and more individual attention. She was well known by her instructors and more than one tried to sway her into their own field of study.

 

I feel where the peer issue has entered the picture is in English. Last spring, my son was in an English 111 course with a very demanding instructor. On the one hand, it was a great experience because it forced my son to raise the bar on his writing. The one issue that was troublesome, however, was that of "peer reviews". Granted, my son wrote papers on some esoteric subjects, but it seems that his "peers" did not understand what he was writing about and hence could not offer much in the way of criticism, either good or bad. His peers in English 112 have been far worse this semester. The presentations in this class were sub-par, according to my son. Class discussions are difficult if not impossible in these circumstances when students fail to do their work.

 

I'd have to agree that my daughter experienced much the same in her own writing courses, and that the peer reviews were only frequently helpful to her. After her first such experience, she tried to maneuver herself into situations where the peer was close to her own level so that it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement. This did not always happen.

 

My son has speculated that the science courses at the CC are better since they are not a specific requirement for an AA, whereas English 111 is required.

 

I also do not know if I can state unequivocally that my son's Chemistry courses are the same as those offered at UNC-CH or NCSU since we lack first hand experience with these university courses. I do feel that they were better than what I personally could have offered at home.

 

My daughter took College Algebra and Trig at the local community college and did well in both classes. My husband has tutored several students from the local state university who have taken these same courses. He was familiar with what my daughter had covered but found that the university classes were definitely more rigorous and at a higher level. This may just have been due to these particular instructors. It's hard to know.

 

... Do I regret that he participated in concurrent enrollment? No, for a number of reasons. But I would recommend that parents and students learn what they can about individual instructors before registering for courses. (And not from "Rate My Professor"!)

 

 

Yes, on the whole the experience was also positive for my daughter, and she learned a great deal from the experience beyond the purely academic. She learned about the fact that each instructor has different expectations (and quirks!); she learned about working in a group (with its pluses and minuses); she learned to navigate the college campus -- to register, to get ID, to find classrooms, to get books, to go to the health clinic; and she learned the importance of reading a syllabus.

 

I agree too about trying to learn about individual instructors; however, my daughter's experience was often such that only one section would fit into her schedule. Also, the community college here is large, so it was not always possible to find someone she knew with whom to discuss a given instructor. We did use Rate My Professor and also learned to take the reviews with a grain of salt.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Brilliant]

My 16yo dd qualifies for the honors program at our local CC. It has the "proven track" for 4yr college transfer mentioned in the article. However, I was not impressed when I looked at one course - honors English composition - and noticed their texts were graphic novels (comic books). And most of the honors sections are for GE requirements which are also offered online. We don't want her to spend more time on campus than necessary, so we have chosen the online option when available. She had a great experience with online math last semester, and is registered for online oceanography this semester.