WHY do we need all this grammar?! "The War Against Grammar" ...

[MIch elle]

Just as I'm questioning, "Why do we need all this grammar?" I read Andrew Kern's blog entry: "The War Against Grammar" and it jolts me back in line!

 

:auto:

[Kfamily]

Very interesting...thanks for sharing!:001_smile:

[motherdear]

Learning grammar w/ my kids has helped us all to speak more intelligently! : )

[GWOB]

Thanks for posting. This helps me in many ways. (See "I think CM lied to me" thread.) I've been having an internal debate on whether or not to up our grammar instruction. This sheds another light on the debate.

[thowell]

I agree with his opinion but the question remains, when is the best time in education to introduce and really teach Grammar?

[8filltheheart]

I agree with him. Understanding how our language works and is structured is foundational to effective communication and to determining logical rhetoric from "sounds wonderful" but completely hollow rhetoric.

 

I believe grammar should be introduced as soon as a child is reading on a late 2nd grade level.......whenever that is. I am an advocate of teaching grammar within the context of writing and writing taught from a grammar foundation.

 

I am at a loss on how one teaches writing/editing without discussing it in terms of grammar.

 

Basing decisions on "how it sounds" is an inappropriate approach considering how few people actually speak properly. Writing should also use more formal verbage and structure than conversational language.

[MIch elle]

Thanks for posting. This helps me in many ways. (See "I think CM lied to me" thread.) I've been having an internal debate on whether or not to up our grammar instruction. This sheds another light on the debate.

 

My internal debate has been to slow down or not in our grammar studies - drag out CLE LA 7 over 2 years OR keep plowing through and do CLE LA 7 as planned this year and continue with CLE LA 8 next year ... OR switch to Easy Grammar Plus for grade 8.

 

If my ds wasn't so dang slow to get his daily work done then the choice would be easy - continue with CLE LA 7 and 8. My hope is that this year with CLE LA 7 he'll finally have all that grammar memorized and CLE LA 8 will be easy. Well, I can hope can't I?? :banghead:

 

As of today, we'll keep plowing through CLE LA 7 and finish it this school year.

 

AHH the joy of homeschooling AND internal debates with oneself! :tongue_smilie:

[MIch elle]

I

 

Basing decisions on "how it sounds" is an inappropriate approach considering how few people actually speak properly. Writing should also use more formal verbage and structure than conversational language.

 

Growing up with hard of hearing/deaf parents, English NEVER sounded correct! :lol:

 

My dh, who grew up with two hearing parents, STILL uses the objective case pronoun "ME" as a nominative case pronoun, "Me and my son are going to workout." :001_huh: Did I tell you that's he's a very intelligent scientist? :D

[siloam]

Good article. For me it is really simple. I like to work towards mastery, on our hsing of three areas: LA, writing and math. You can't master something if you choose to ignore one whole piece of it. Mastery demands you also study grammar, so we do. :D

 

On a less logical and more emotional note, I have noticed that my writing has improved as I am more aware of agreement of quantity and tense. In addition my comma usage is based on logic now and not where it sounds right. While I think some people can do well with those methods, it doesn't work for me. I just am not that intuitive. I have a dd who is so I know what it looks like. I am a very concrete thinker. I don't have her gift and the rest of my children are like me.

 

Heather

 

[Laura Corin]

 

I am at a loss on how one teaches writing/editing without discussing it in terms of grammar.

 

 

I teach parts of speech and punctuation. These are the tools for discussing writing and learning foreign languages; this level of knowledge is not time consuming.

 

I would not choose, however, to spend hours each week over an entire school career on grammar.

 

Laura

[Momling]

My dh, who grew up with two hearing parents, STILL uses the objective case pronoun "ME" as a nominative case pronoun, "Me and my son are going to workout." :001_huh: Did I tell you that's he's a very intelligent scientist? :D

 

In his favor, English is said to be an accusative default language (other Germanic and Romance languages are not...). So, weirdly, our native English speaking brains are just naturally set up to default to accusative when it's not clear which pronoun to use. You can try to change it, but it's probably hopeless... He's in good company though, the phrase (with quotes) of "me and him are" has 211,000 google hits. :o

 

Poor me... *Poor I

Who, me??? *Who, I??

Dear me... *Dear I

Lucky us! *Lucky we!

Lucky them! *Lucky they!

[patchfire]

I would not choose, however, to spend hours each week over an entire school career on grammar.

 

:iagree:

 

I think it's important, but I don't give it the time or the priority that some do.

[brownie]

So which grammar curricula actually help the child apply it in their writing? If I remembered any of my grammar, I would just choose to point things out as they came out in their writing, but I don't. So I suppose I am stuck learning it with the boys so I can make sure they apply it in their writing. However, it would be great if the curriculum worked on application. I learned a lot of grammar but don't recall ever actually using it intentionally. Brownie

[siloam]

So which grammar curricula actually help the child apply it in their writing? If I remembered any of my grammar, I would just choose to point things out as they came out in their writing, but I don't. So I suppose I am stuck learning it with the boys so I can make sure they apply it in their writing. However, it would be great if the curriculum worked on application. I learned a lot of grammar but don't recall ever actually using it intentionally. Brownie

 

Brownie,

 

Classical Writing does. Right now in Homer my oldest has to do work on changing tense, changing between singular and plural, simplifying by removing modifiers, then expanding by adding modifiers, ect...

 

For younger kids Writing With Ease workbooks have the pointing out parts of speech in a sentence a couple times a week written into the program. It is scripted and very easy to use.

 

Heather

 

[gardening momma]

So what does everyone think about that huge sentence near the end? A couple people mentioned it in the comments, and the blog author says it's ok.

[brownie]

Is classical writing a writing curriculum? If so for what ages? I've never heard of it. We are using WWE but have only been using it for 6 weeks so perhaps I just haven't noticed too much incorporation of grammar yet.

Brownie

[8filltheheart]

So which grammar curricula actually help the child apply it in their writing? If I remembered any of my grammar, I would just choose to point things out as they came out in their writing, but I don't. So I suppose I am stuck learning it with the boys so I can make sure they apply it in their writing. However, it would be great if the curriculum worked on application. I learned a lot of grammar but don't recall ever actually using it intentionally. Brownie

 

For my younger kids, I do not use a writing program anymore. My older 2 kids were my guinea pigs and I learned that the only one that retained all the grammar from the grammar book was me!

 

I used Voyages in English back then and I would call it your typical "grammar in isolation" English book. That approach really is pointless.

 

Now I use copywork and teach grammar directly from it. I introduce one concept at a time and NEVER let that concept drop. So every day they are parsing sentences in greater complexity.

 

After the major grammar concepts are mastered, we move on to dissecting paragraphs in the same way. They learn how sentences and grammar work together and how sentences and paragraphs work together.

 

Since I started teaching this way, teaching writing is a much simpler and more enjoyable process.

 

For older kids, programs that attempt to do it are Put That in Writing and Grammar for Writing (http://www.sadlier-oxford.com/grammar/writing.cfm?sp=student). Without a solid understanding of grammar, it is next to impossible for students to edit their writing. I find it much easier to discuss stylistic points in terms of grammar.

 

Students without a solid grammar background typically have problems with verb tense shifts, changes in perspective and voice, etc.

[10Newtons]

Thanks so much for sharing!

 

I must admit that I get side-tracked in our day to day stuff...and need to refocus. :)

[siloam]

Is classical writing a writing curriculum? If so for what ages? I've never heard of it. We are using WWE but have only been using it for 6 weeks so perhaps I just haven't noticed too much incorporation of grammar yet.

Brownie

 

 

Brownie,

 

Classical Writing has grammar, light spelling, vocab, outlining, literature analysis and writing. It really is a full program, and I love it. The creators recommend you start Aesop A in 3rd grade, but if you use their pre-packaged student guide they have only set up 18 weeks for Aesop A and Aesop B. IMO that makes it logical to start the program in 4th grade.

 

My 2nd dd, who is 4th grade this year, is doing WWE and Aesop right now. Though because she is also doing WWE I have her doing Aesop at a slower pace. It is actually nice because it allows me to do everything with her. She is such a concrete learner that doesn't make logical leaps that this is helping her to know how to do it right. Given we hs year around it shouldn't be too difficult to "catch up" to the schedule later on.

 

Heather

[smrtmama]

I have a BA of English and a MA in Professional Writing, so obviously, I have a passion for this subject. I think the author of this article, however, fails to take into account that language is a living thing that changes over time. Acceptable grammar and usage changes over time. This isn't a corruption of the language or a "dumbing-down," but a normal part of linguistic evolution. Our English would be unrecognizable to Caedmon and the author(s) of Beowulf and would sound quite strange to Chaucer and his contemporaries, yet our English is not a lesser or more impure form of the language than theirs. American English uses grammar and punctuation differently from British English, but that does not make it incorrect.

 

I agree that teaching the mechanics of grammar is important. You'll find few people in this world who love diagramming sentences more than I. Despite this, I don't believe that the teaching of grammar is going to preserve the human race. The needs of the human race will change with environmental and economic changes, with greater interactions between cultures and nations, and grammar will change with it. Many of the rules you teach your child today may irrelevant by the time they teach their children, based on changes to the language. Grammar isn't some sort of educational panacea.

[siloam]

Just as I'm questioning, "Why do we need all this grammar?" I read Andrew Kern's blog entry: "The War Against Grammar" and it jolts me back in line!

 

:auto:

 

By the way if you want to read about the other side of the debate, Ruth Beechick has a book out called Language Wars. I started out very RB in philosophy, but over time came to the conclusion that it was only effective if the parent were a master of the material being presented so that they could take advantage of teachable moments. I personally has way too many times my oldest dd would ask me something and I had to answer, "I don't know" for it to work.

 

Heather

 

[plimsoll]

So which grammar curricula actually help the child apply it in their writing? If I remembered any of my grammar, I would just choose to point things out as they came out in their writing, but I don't. So I suppose I am stuck learning it with the boys so I can make sure they apply it in their writing. However, it would be great if the curriculum worked on application. I learned a lot of grammar but don't recall ever actually using it intentionally. Brownie

 

We are currently using IEW - many of the stylistic techniques presented there are practical applications of grammatical knowledge, e.g.., prepositionsal opener, adverbial phrase, appositives, etc., etc.

 

When my son's grammar is more advanced, we plan to try our hand at CW Homer, which as I understand it, relies heavily on an understanding of grammar to identify sentence patterns and rearrange them in various ways.

 

For an older student, I understand that IEW's Fix-It program teaches more advanced grammatical concepts through practical application: proofreading and correcting. We plan to use Fix-It in high school.

 

Growing up learning English as I did, much is absorbed through "immersion", so you learn a lot of correct (and sometimes incorrect) usage without a conscious study of the grammar. However, studying a foreign language, from Latin/Greek through French, will provide practical application of grammar, since if it hasn't been learned already, much of it will be learned in the course of learning the new language.

[Pippen]

Just as I'm questioning, "Why do we need all this grammar?" I read Andrew Kern's blog entry: "The War Against Grammar" and it jolts me back in line!

 

:auto:

 

Not me. I know we need grammar so we can celebrate National Grammar Day. ;)

 

http://nationalgrammarday.com/

[plimsoll]

I am adding National Grammar Day, along with International Talk Like a Pirate Day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/), to my list of holidays to celebrate.

Edited November 2, 2009 by plimsoll

[plimsoll]

At first grammar is like tools: hammer, nails, saw, plane, etc. Some ideas may require the use of wooden pegs, a plane and some finishing chemical like varnish stain, etc. If a carpenter only knows how to use a hammer and nails, knows nothing of sanding or finishing, then what can be expressed is limited.

 

Eventually grammar is more like architecture and design. The better you've understood and internalized it, the more varied and wondrous the ways you can express your thoughts and ideas.

 

Yes, grammar and usage change over time, as does architecture. Understanding older grammar allows us to appreciate ancient temples and cathedrals in ways we might otherwise not be able to; understanding current usage allows us to build skyscapers and other modern buildings. I don't see a contradiction in learning both.

[Andrew Kern]

When I was looking at my blog stats I noticed that you good folks here at WTM have done me the great honor of reading my blog over the past few days.

 

I'm here to say thank you. You've compelled me to register on this forum, which I've frequently visited over the years.

 

I hope to be able to contibute to this discussion from time to time too.

 

One point I'd like to make is that I agree with smartmama that grammar is no educational panacea. I don't want to overstate what it can achieve.

 

But I also think there can be no education renewal without it.

 

It's necessary, but it's not enough.

 

I think David's response was indicating that.

 

So thanks for your visits and your comments. I sincerely hope I can be some use to you all as you obviously are putting a lot of thought into educating your children, which is 9/10 of the battle.

 

Keep it up!

[angela in ohio]

So what does everyone think about that huge sentence near the end? A couple people mentioned it in the comments, and the blog author says it's ok.

 

I think it's a beautifully constructed sentence. Of course, I'm a bit of an Andrew Kern groupie. It is a common mistake to think that a long sentence is necessarily a run-on. I teach junior high writing; I know run-on sentences. ;)

[8filltheheart]

I think it's a beautifully constructed sentence. Of course, I'm a bit of an Andrew Kern groupie. It is a common mistake to think that a long sentence is necessarily a run-on. I teach junior high writing; I know run-on sentences. ;)

 

You should watch "Building Great Sentences: the Writer's Craft" by the Teaching Company. It inspires creative sentence structure......some extremely LONG!!:D

[Pippen]

I am adding National Grammar Day, along with International Talk Like a Pirate Day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/), to my list of holidays to celebrate.

 

We do Talk Like A Pirate Day too!

 

Last year my kids were all in public school and when they came home I surprised them with a cake with the frosted words "Happy National Grammar Day". You can just imagine the reaction from my kids, then ages 11, 13, and 15. ;)