PiCO Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 My dd is in 5th grade at a charter school (I afterschool.) She did 5th grade math last year, and started this year in pre-algebra. They gave a bunch of students a placement test to see if they were ready for algebra, and dd scored 100%. So they are moving her to algebra. My concerns are: 1. What will she do in high school if she's doing algebra in 5th grade? 2. She's 11. She is a really mathy kid, but will this math stick? 3. Her teacher does not really seem like a "mathy" person- teaches straight from the book, etc. I don't feel like dd will be getting a deep understanding of math. 4. I afterschool with Singapore Math. We finished 5th grade last year, and are starting 6th. Should I just keep using the Singapore series at home, or is there something better out there? Any opinions appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlifemom Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I have no advice. My oldest is the same age and definately not ready. However, I read once, probably here that [bear in mind this a generality] your child should not start algebra until they have hair under their arms. Makes sense to me. Of course I am sure there are some [read not that many] that can handle it, but I also know some who were these amazingly math smart kids pushed into algebra in 6th that are repeating it in 7th, b/c they.just.weren't.ready. I would much rather spend the year honing all their skills in preparation for algebra. Totally my $.02 and probably not even worth that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 My dd is in 5th grade at a charter school (I afterschool.) She did 5th grade math last year, and started this year in pre-algebra. They gave a bunch of students a placement test to see if they were ready for algebra, and dd scored 100%. So they are moving her to algebra. My concerns are: 1. What will she do in high school if she's doing algebra in 5th grade? 2. She's 11. She is a really mathy kid, but will this math stick? 3. Her teacher does not really seem like a "mathy" person- teaches straight from the book, etc. I don't feel like dd will be getting a deep understanding of math. 4. I afterschool with Singapore Math. We finished 5th grade last year, and are starting 6th. Should I just keep using the Singapore series at home, or is there something better out there? Any opinions appreciated! 1) Once you finish Algebra I, many options open up such as an introductory study of statistics or discrete math. After Algebra II or Precalc, there are even more. One needn't rush straight for Calculus. 2) It stuck for me in that grade. Kids are different. I did Alg I/II that year and both stuck pretty well. (I was also mathy) 3) This *is* a concern. Would the teacher be any better if you put it off a year? I would recommend enriching for deeper understanding or possibly redoing Alg I with a much deeper, more theretical program over the summer/over a later summer as review before Alg II 4) How would she do on the placement test for 6A/B off their website? Another option for supplementing, if you wish to match your supplementation to what she's doing at home, is the Art of Problem Solving algebra book. (I have no direct experience with actually using their program, but it was written for younger, mathier kids). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 It really depends on what they use for algebra. There are plenty of easy vs hard alg books. This could be an easy beginner one with the expectation of following up with two more full years of alg (intermediate & alg 2. . . or alg 2 and the precalc. . . etc) before it's all done. . . They probably know their curriculum reasonably well, so I'd trust their test and go with it. Take it year by year. There are many math topics to study. . . algebra, alg 2, trig, stats, geometry, calculus, etc. She'll likely end up with 2 or even 3 full years of algebra depending on their curricula. Better yet, aske the teacher about what classes would follow up for gr 6 & up. . . Surely she knows! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber in AUS Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 However, I read once, probably here that [bear in mind this a generality] your child should not start algebra until they have hair under their arms. Makes sense to me. :lol: I would have been 10. Certainly wasn't anywhere near ready for algebra at that point :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 You should ask on the Accelerated Learner board. I think a combination of approaches is good for a child like this-use good resources yourself. If the school/s math program or teacher is weak, ask if they would allow your daughter to use an online program like CTY or EPGY-and better yet, pay for it. Both of these have very good, rigorous pre algebra curricula. They can also test to place your daughter in the right level. For younger kids, many parents go into more depth, using challenging programs like Singapore, (have you considered NEM?), Russian math or Art of Problem Solving. AOPS website also has other books that kids can do just for interest's sake. I got one called Creative Problem Solving that my son loves-he is in seventh grade and I am "putting off" algebra with this, CWP 6, and review with Keys to books, and will start Foerster's in January. My plan is to do Algebra 1 in depth, for 18 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Well, I can't give a future perspective, but at the moment, this seems to be working for ds... He's a young 6th grader doing algebra 1 (Algebra 1: Structure and Method, Brown, Dolciani...). So far he's "getting" it and no problems. Previously we'd done Horizons 1-6, Singapore Primary (and most of the CWPs and some IPs), he's done Math Olympiad at the elementary level for the last couple of years (now doing the middle school level), and we've tried to pull in other supplements over time (Challenge Math, Number Devil, etc)... So on the one hand, yes, I've tried to take him deeper in various ways, but on the other hand, algebra 1 isn't magical or anything, and he's picking it up pretty easily (as easily as many bright kids a few years older than he), and having some basic algebra under his belt opens up many other opportunities to him in terms of math to study. (Interestingly, I wouldn't say he's science-oriented at all -- just mathy -- and I have no idea what direction he'll choose to take later on.) I haven't used any of the Art of Problem Solving materials yet, but I'm certainly interested. There's an interesting beginning-level course starting in March for kids who've done algebra 1 already. I'm curious about giving it a try (though it's expensive)... I guess I'm just posting to say, "Yeah, there are others with mathy kids trying to find our way through all this"... :) When I look at the AoPS resources, I'm reassured that there's plenty of math available for high schoolers who've had all of the typical hs math ahead of time. :) So that's nice. It's the one place where I don't feel like ds is "ahead" at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 My 13 yos did his first alg course in 5th grade. However, as another poster pointed out, all algebra courses are not created equal. He followed that alg course with a much more difficult alg course in 6th grade. He hasn't any problems with any of the math that courses that he has completed. If you aren't confident about the alg program they are using, I would recommend possibly enrolling her in AoPS's online alg course. That way you will know she is getting everything she needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 5th grade? The world is going insane! Well, since I got that off my chest... If it were me, I would just keep up with what I have been doing at home. That said, I've found that when schools put the kids in algebra really young (though not generally 5th!!!), they tend to have them repeat the sequence again later. She may be doing algebra again in 8th. Can't tell you how many ps kids of friends have been shocked when their little math genius (you should have heard them bragging) who was placed into algebra in 6th grade was placed in algebra 1 when they started high school. These are kids who made a's the whole way though. So, if it doesn't stick this go round, they did get another chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 5th grade? The world is going insane! Well, since I got that off my chest... If it were me, I would just keep up with what I have been doing at home. That said, I've found that when schools put the kids in algebra really young (though not generally 5th!!!), they tend to have them repeat the sequence again later. She may be doing algebra again in 8th. Can't tell you how many ps kids of friends have been shocked when their little math genius (you should have heard them bragging) who was placed into algebra in 6th grade was placed in algebra 1 when they started high school. These are kids who made a's the whole way though. So, if it doesn't stick this go round, they did get another chance. :iagree: with this as well. There are kids that ARE ready for alg at a very young age, but they are few and far between. My ds that is advanced in math actually "sees" the world mathematically and simply analyzes everything far differently than anyone else I know. His oldest brother is very math oriented and definitely was not ready at the same age. Doing well in elementary level math is not necessarily the equivalent of being mathematically gifted to the point of doing advanced math at a young age. Advancing quickly through the "concrete" steps of arithmetic does not equate equally with being able to apply the abstract concepts of alg and beyond at a young age. It depends on the child, their ability to analyze and interpret on an abstract level, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fractalgal Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 My dd is in 5th grade at a charter school (I afterschool.) She did 5th grade math last year, and started this year in pre-algebra. They gave a bunch of students a placement test to see if they were ready for algebra, and dd scored 100%. So they are moving her to algebra. My concerns are: 1. What will she do in high school if she's doing algebra in 5th grade? 2. She's 11. She is a really mathy kid, but will this math stick? 3. Her teacher does not really seem like a "mathy" person- teaches straight from the book, etc. I don't feel like dd will be getting a deep understanding of math. 4. I afterschool with Singapore Math. We finished 5th grade last year, and are starting 6th. Should I just keep using the Singapore series at home, or is there something better out there? Any opinions appreciated! You know her the best, so I'd say trust your gut. ;) If you do enroll her in Algebra, I suggest you continue afterschooling her in Pre-Algebra topics and carefully watch how or what topics may cause her problems throughout the year in Algebra and focus on those after school. If you don't enroll her, then I would have her focus on Pre-Algebra topics along with CWP or IP from Singapore Math or something similar which goes into more depth than the regular math programs. If you are afterschooling her, you would be able to help her deal with a non-mathy teacher by filling the gaps. In high school, she could focus on more in-depth Algebra like Gelfands or some other book that you think would fill this that would require a bit more mastery of Algebra. Congratulations on her scoring 100% on her placement test. Good Luck :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiCO Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 There are kids that ARE ready for alg at a very young age, but they are few and far between. This is another concern of mine. There are 8 5th graders and a bunch of 6th graders moving to Algebra. Doing well in elementary level math is not necessarily the equivalent of being mathematically gifted to the point of doing advanced math at a young age. Advancing quickly through the "concrete" steps of arithmetic does not equate equally with being able to apply the abstract concepts of alg and beyond at a young age. I totally agree with this. I will keep an eye on dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAR120C Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 My dd is in 5th grade at a charter school (I afterschool.) She did 5th grade math last year, and started this year in pre-algebra. They gave a bunch of students a placement test to see if they were ready for algebra, and dd scored 100%. So they are moving her to algebra. If she's doing Singapore Primary 6 at home, there's an excellent chance she's ready for some algebra, even at eleven. Now whether the school is going to do it the way I would is a different question... ;) What I would want out of an algebra class --at any age, but especially if they're going young -- is a heavy emphasis on problem solving. Singapore is good for that, especially in the word problems, but you can also supplement with some of the "pre algebra" competition materials... MathCounts, AMC 8, Math Olympiad. All of them lend themselves easily to beginning algebra work, but with more focus on setting up problems and understanding why numbers do what they do, and less on the "arithmetic with variables" end of things. If she's officially 5th grade this year she won't be allowed to compete in MathCounts, but you could use the practice problems anyway - they're very good, with or without the competition aspect. The other thing I'd want to know is that she's not being handed the algebra book and expected to self-teach. It sounds like she's been placed in a class, so that would be good.... but I've heard of too many kids being expected to absorb this stuff spontaneously. Even for the brightest kids, instruction and assistance and discussion is crucial. Not that they necessarily need to be sat down and lectured at, but that they need someone making sure they're getting all the connections, and someone who can discuss the further implications of what they're just starting out with, when it looks completely abstract. It is entirely possible to get through a mediocre book with excellent grades, having never discovered how all of it fits together, and having never understood the elegance behind it all. I was discussing this with a friend of mine and she and I came up with three broad and overlapping topics that sum up all of Algebra 1... but those three topics can be split into dozens of chapters or lessons that at first glance can appear to have little relationship to each other. I think the relationships are the most important thing to learn, and the hardest thing to pick up on your own. We did do Algebra at a ridiculously young age, and we haven't had to go back and re-work it at all. As someone else already mentioned, once you've hit that level the math world opens up tremendously, so our post-algebra "slowing down" has been from taking all kinds of rabbit trails, all of which rely on a thorough understanding of algebra and serve as a kind of review themselves. I like to alternate years between the traditional progression and off-the-beaten-path topics, so last year we did Statistics, this year we're doing Geometry, next year I think it will be either Combinatorics/Probability topics or Financial Math (or both)... There is an almost-infinite range of possibilities, but it does take some doing to have them in a school. Art of Problem Solving (which someone else already mentioned) is a good place to look for textbooks on the off-the-beaten-path topics. It would be worth asking the school what their plans are for future years.... Does the charter school go through 12th grade? or do you need to address it also with the high school she'll attend? If they don't have a plan, it might be time to start coming up with one... Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiCO Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Thanks for your help, everyone! I think I will enroll her in the algebra class and continue Singapore 6 at home. After Singapore, I will look into NEM and/or the Art of Problem Solving programs. The AoPS online classes look interesting- and don't really seem that expensive. I knew y'all would have some great ideas for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysparkler Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 My son is currently doing Algebra in 4th grade. We are going DEEP into everything so that he gets a good foundation, and it is slowing down the pace a bit. It looks like this method will take him about a year and a half to get through it. Then we plan on doing some deeper math studies using AoPS books before moving onto the Geometry/Trig/Calculus levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Has the school mapped out a sequence of future course options and discussed them with you? If not, that's something I'd want to discuss with the school. My son is in a similar boat (we did Singapore and NEM at home as well), but the school spelled out what future classes will be available. Other programs to look into: Awesome Math Year-round (AMY) Titu Andreescu teaches as well as a few others. "The AMY is broken into six independent segments, each investigating one circle of ideas in depth. Every two months, students receive a packet of materials organized around a set of notes which comprise a short course in the topic. The courses cover each topic from the very basics all the way to fascinating and difficult results; we believe that everyone has something to learn! The notes will be accompanied by scores of problems, running the gamut from simple to quite hard. Students are expected to write up solutions so that we may provide individual feedback and teach the invaluable skill of proof-writing." http://www.awesomemath.org Math Circles to follow what others are doing: National -- http://www.mathcircles.org/node/77 Berkeley -- http://mathcircle.berkeley.edu/ San Diego -- http://www.sdmathcircle.org/ Dallas -- http://metroplexmathcircle.wordpress.com/ Also, the AMC 8 test is coming up November 17. See if your school participates. You can order a book and previous tests on DVD for about $25. http://www.unl.edu/amc/e-exams/e4-amc08/amc8.shtml Your daughter might also like to participate in MathCounts and/or Math Olympiads. A fun way to learn more about math. (My husband coaches a team.) Then there are the summer camps that get into areas of math you wouldn't typically find at most schools. If you'd like more info about them, I'd be happy to post some links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Your daughter might also like to participate in MathCounts and/or Math Olympiads. A fun way to learn more about math. (My husband coaches a team.) Her dd wouldn't be eligible for Math Counts this yr. Eligibility is based on enrolled grade level (6th-8th), not math course work. I have heard good things about Math Path camps, but I have also been told it is better to be on the older side. http://www.mathpath.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Her dd wouldn't be eligible for Math Counts this yr. Eligibility is based on enrolled grade level (6th-8th), not math course work. I have heard good things about Math Path camps, but I have also been told it is better to be on the older side. http://www.mathpath.org/ That's too bad they don't allow the younger ones to compete. She could always study the older tests and be good and ready the next year, though. I know my youngest son wouldn't have handled an away camp like MathPath too well at such a young age, but the problems to get in are worth attempting. Next year's are available online. Texas State at San Marcos will take younger out-of-state students if the child has a place to stay. That program is shorter and less intense but would be a good intro for a young one. http://www.txstate.edu/mathworks/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiCO Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 It would be worth asking the school what their plans are for future years.... Does the charter school go through 12th grade? or do you need to address it also with the high school she'll attend? If they don't have a plan, it might be time to start coming up with one...Good luck! The charter school only goes through 8th. But- I was actually at the high school today talking to my other dd's counselor, and I asked him his opinion on dd11. He said make sure there's an ALP in place now and dd is listed as "gifted", and it will be a lot easier to get her the math she needs in 8th grade and high school. The high school does have a plan for kids that are advanced in math- they go to either the community college or the university for math. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I'd go ahead with it. I seem to recall some very dry arithemetical busywork being most of the math I was given in 5th and 6th grade, then pre-alg in 7th and I wound up doubling up math courses in high school. It would have been better to move on to algebra sooner! Let her advance at her own pace; if she slows down later, she slows down. That isn't a big deal when you're ahead to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 You guys are making me feel much better about considering letting my DD9 go ahead in math. :001_smile: According to the AoP website she would be ready for Algebra I, mom just doesn't seem to be ready... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I think I will enroll her in the algebra class and continue Singapore 6 at home. After Singapore, I will look into NEM and/or the Art of Problem Solving programs. The AoPS online classes look interesting- and don't really seem that expensive. :iagree: I think this is a good action plan. My son will be starting algebra either at the end of this year or beginning of next year. It depends on how quickly he works through prealgebra. I'll follow up MUS's algebra woth AOPS's intro to algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy in TN Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 My son will be starting algebra either at the end of this year or beginning of next year. It depends on how quickly he works through prealgebra. I'll follow up MUS's algebra woth AOPS's intro to algebra. I was considering Key to Algebra and following it with AoPS's Intro to Alg. I thought of Key to, because I like the simplicity and easy instructions right on the age. OTOH, I have MUS Alg on the shelf. Is there a special reason you are looking at using MUS Alg first? Mandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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