How Do You Know When Children Are Gifted?

[Jumping In Puddles]

It was pretty obvious in the case of our DS1. He knew all his upper and lower case letters by 18 months, could read and do simple addition/subtraction by about age 2, etc.

 

Your DS1 is exactly what I think of when I think of gifted and how I realize that my ds and dd are not gifted. :)

Edited October 9, 2009 by Jumping In Puddles

[TravelingChris]

If we go with the multiple gifted-ness theory (what are there, 8 types?),

 

Actually, that theory has been tested and found to be not true. It was a nice theory and lots of educators believed it but it hadn't been tested. The tests of the theory came out this year and is was discredited. I had read about these types years ago and just thought that my family was strange since we didn't have types but sort of overlapping. Turns out that while people have areas they are better at, the intelligence level is universal.

 

To some other posters, plenty of adults who people judged as highly intelligent did not start reading at a very early age or doing other great things at 1 or 2.

 

I think it is easier to see when you see your child with other children. The difference is clear. And no, it does not have to do with acceleration since the clearest difference is when they encounter a brand new idea.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

And no, it does not have to do with acceleration since the clearest difference is when they encounter a brand new idea.

So what is that difference?

[gingersmom]

 

Just beware that when you call her 'not gifted' as in your first post, you are also labeling her...

 

 

 

To keep with the tone of the discussion I called her "not gifted". No matter what word I chose it would be a label (regular, normal, not gifted). Maybe I should have just put a symbol.

[angela in ohio]

To keep with the tone of the discussion I called her "not gifted". No matter what word I chose it would be a label (regular, normal, not gifted). Maybe I should have just put a symbol.

 

The current educational-ese term is 'typical.' (My dc volunteer at a school for special needs kids, and they are labeled 'typical peers.') It is supposed to be nicer than saying 'normal.' :001_smile:

[Blueridge]

Everyone's replies are so interesting! Here is today's example of *why* I wonder about giftedness. I took my younger girls to Goodwill yesterday to sift through goodies. My 11dd literally ran for the section that has sheets, pillow cases, etc. She came back carrying 2 like-new sheets and said she just had to have them. Later last night my older dd came down, saying she saw 11dd cutting out homemade pattern pieces for a new jumper! She has no book, no pattern to go by, just an idea. This morning I came in my room to find her ironing (she had asked permission earlier) and she had already sewn the skirt and bodice pieces of the jumper and was ironing them before sewing them together. I have never given her a sewing lesson...she just seems to *know*. Now this ability would not be measured in a testing situation, but I feel as though she is gifted in her knowingness, kwim? I'll send a pic when she finishes! :)

[creekland]

If we go with the multiple gifted-ness theory (what are there, 8 types?),

 

Actually, that theory has been tested and found to be not true. It was a nice theory and lots of educators believed it but it hadn't been tested. The tests of the theory came out this year and is was discredited. I had read about these types years ago and just thought that my family was strange since we didn't have types but sort of overlapping. Turns out that while people have areas they are better at, the intelligence level is universal.

 

 

I was never 100% sure that I agreed with the theory in totality, but I definitely know there are different areas 'gifted' people excel in. I suppose that's the same with 'normal' people too and their talents. My naturalist son knows far more about nature than my gifted son - where it comes from, who knows? It's very similar to the gal making her own clothes with no lessons...

 

So, I guess I'm not throwing out the whole idea either - just perhaps it needs to be modified. Now I'm wondering how my naturalist son would do if I had him tested. Would his IQ be up there in the gifted range too? I'm not rushing right out to see, but I do wonder.

 

And as far as 'normal' goes, my favorite saying is "Everyone is normal until you get to know them!"

[Lovedtodeath]

 

And as far as 'normal' goes, my favorite saying is "Everyone is normal until you get to know them!"

:iagree: I think that so many homeschoolers have gifted and/or LD kids because we get to know their educational needs so individually. I think that the majority (not all!) of these same kids would never be called gifted or LD if they were in the PS setting. They would learn to cope, as this (me) 2x kid did (somewhat).

[Reya]

Silly question, out of curiosity, but how do you know? Do you take them to be professionally evaluated by someone? Take online personality/intelligence tests? Are all gifted and highly gifted children amazing in all their school subjects and a joy to teach...or the class clowns that are always disruptive? How do you know? Thanks for your thoughts~

 

When your "slower" kid talks at seven months and argues with you at 10 and when you "faster" kid talks at 4 and says sentences by 5 or 6 months, you have a pretty good idea.

 

Some people, though, who come from very "slow" families think that their not-quite-as-slow kid is gifted. Others, who come from smart families, might think that their slowest kid is really behind when he's still solidly gifted. So for lots of people, testing can help.

 

My 6-y-o son is smart but has CAPD/ADD/dyslexia issues. That means great strengths and great weaknesses together. I was nearly in tears yesterday trying to get the kid to do 25-10. Every time I said "25," he heard "105." Why????? No clue, and even writing it down, it took him forever to see it. Today, he's adding, subtracting, and multiplying fractions, as well as converting denominators, simplifying, and producing either mixed numbers or improper fractions on command, all in his head and very fast.

 

Go figure.

 

He is at times a complete joy. At others...well..my friend's asked me how I can do it without my head blowing off. :-P Being smart doesn't mean being easy to teach or being hard working. My son read all his science yesterday standing on his head. It took three times as long, but I left him alone. School took eight hours yesterday. It usually takes four. He just had the slows in everything.

 

As far as babies go, smarter babies are usually a lot more exhausting. By several orders of magnitude. Many don't sleep, and some cry if they get bored. And they get bored a LOT, without constant stimulation. My DD could bat the swinging toys on her bouncer chair the day after she was born. It took her longer to figure out how to get the center one, but once she hit the side ones reliably, which was within a week, they were no longer fun. Now, take that same level of precocity and boredom and apply it to everything.....

[Reya]

Most siblings have IQs within 15 points of each other. Most have IQs within 10 points of each other, in fact. So if one is gifted, they probably all are, barring special circumstances.

[Reya]

One clue that a child is gifted and not just extremely smart ...

 

Giftedness is a euphemism for high intelligence.

[Reya]

[quote name=gingersmom;1243726}

 

My niece is not gifted. She got 100% on her math SAT and 99.9% correct on the others (I don't know scores' date=' etc).

 

The SAT has been WAY watered down...but sorry, your niece is gifted.

[Reya]

Your DS1 is exactly what I think of when I think of gifted and how I realize that my ds and dd are not gifted. :)

 

There is more difference among gifted in IQ than there is in the whole rest of the IQ range put together. Compared to some kids, my 6-y-o son doesn't seem "gifted." He's only doing late elementary/middle school work, after all, and only one of our textbooks is high school level! He can do Algebra I okay, but he isn't exactly setting the world on fire, and it'll be next year before I let him do algebra fulltime. But there are others who are so far ahead of him that he his positively normal.

[Reya]

When it is only a positive thing, they are just accelerated or advanced. When there are negatives, too, they are gifted. :001_smile:

 

 

Nope. IQ, plain and simple.

[Lovedtodeath]

As far as babies go, smarter babies are usually a lot more exhausting. By several orders of magnitude. Many don't sleep, and some cry if they get bored. And they get bored a LOT, without constant stimulation. My DD could bat the swinging toys on her bouncer chair the day after she was born. It took her longer to figure out how to get the center one, but once she hit the side ones reliably, which was within a week, they were no longer fun. Now, take that same level of precocity and boredom and apply it to everything.....

LOL that was my daughter!

 

Not all gifted children show any signs at an early age. That has been established.

[Jumping In Puddles]

 

As far as babies go, smarter babies are usually a lot more exhausting. By several orders of magnitude. Many don't sleep, and some cry if they get bored. And they get bored a LOT, without constant stimulation. My DD could bat the swinging toys on her bouncer chair the day after she was born. It took her longer to figure out how to get the center one, but once she hit the side ones reliably, which was within a week, they were no longer fun. Now, take that same level of precocity and boredom and apply it to everything.....

 

OK, my kids are definitely NOT gifted then! My kids were and are great sleepers and were such good easy babies.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Jumping In Puddles

[Mandy in TN]

OK, my kids are definitely NOT gifted then! My kids were and are great sleepers and were such good easy babies. I think they were just bright, and chatty!

They may be gifted. All gifted children are unique.

 

To some other posters, plenty of adults who people judged as highly intelligent did not start reading at a very early age or doing other great things at 1 or 2.

 

I think it is easier to see when you see your child with other children. The difference is clear. And no, it does not have to do with acceleration since the clearest difference is when they encounter a brand new idea.

As this post states, not all gifted children read early.

 

Also, not all gifted children speak early. Not all gifted children have wonderful fine motor skills at an early age. Not all gifted children are mathematically accelerated at an early age. Not all gifted children sleep less than other children. Gifted children may display some of these characteristics, all of these characteristics, or a completely different set of characteristics.

 

I do think that it is often easier to see giftedness when a child is in a group of children.:)

 

There is more difference among gifted in IQ than there is in the whole rest of the IQ range put together.

As this post states, there is huge range for giftedness. Some children may be on the lower end of gifted and simply connect the dots faster so to speak. OTOH, some gifted children graduate from college before their peers are in high school.

 

HTH-

Mandy

Edited October 7, 2009 by Mandy in TN

[zaichiki]

OK, my kids are definitely NOT gifted then! My kids were and are great sleepers and were such good easy babies. I think they were just bright, and chatty!

 

Okay -- to people who are deciding whether or not their child is gifted based on what *some* other gifted kids do --

 

All gifted (identified by testing) kids do NOT behave the same way. I have two (identified) gifted kids and one who I am certain is also gifted, but not identified (and I have no plans to test him). All three have very different personalities. I have one who could sleep til 10am every morning and two earlybirds. The earlybirds were *excellent* sleepers as babies. The one who likes to sleep and seems to never get enough was a *much* fussier baby until she found her thumb. Then she LOVED to sleep. Go figure. And, honestly, all 3 of mine were easy babies. None of mine were reading by 2.

 

Giftedness is a continuum. A child who is profoundly gifted will make a moderately gifted child look slow. Just keep that in mind people, please.

 

Cheers!

[Aggie]

There is not an all-inclusive definition for giftedness. Although some intelligent people are gifted, not all are. And not all gifted people are intelligent, as measured by tests.

 

Giftedness often refers to how one thinks. A gifted child will solve a problem differently than a non-gifted/average/normal/non-labeled child. I taught a gifted student who almost missed out on our program because his teachers didn't refer him. He couldn't/wouldn't follow simple directions. Instead, he would come up with his own, very intricate, directions, and follow those. He drove all his other teachers crazy because of this, but he was a joy in my class! The classroom teachers thought the child who had perfect grades, was academically advanced and well-behaved was the model gifted student. Not always true. Rote memorization does not equal giftedness.

 

Boredom usually isn't an issue for a gifted child. He will finish the assigned easy task then move on to something else. Even with *nothing* to do, the gifted child's brain doesn't shut off quickly. They can have behavior issues, but generally the misbehavior doesn't stem from being bored. (More from the teacher's idea of what the student should be doing and how he should be doing it. ;))

 

There is so much that giftedness includes. I think testing is a good tool so you can adjust how you teach and what tools you use to teach.

 

 

HTH :)

[lisabees]

My gifted kids just see the world differently. I know by the questions they ask, the observations they make and the obsessive and unusual interests they have. My boys did not talk or read early. They have, though, been identified and tested by the ps. I was not surprised.

 

Dd is only 6 and not tested yet. By the connections she makes and the way she sees the world, she'll be right there with her brothers.

 

I have one son who has an average IQ and is dyslexic. His life is no less wonderful and fulfilling than the others. Around here, it makes no different whether they are gifted or not. :)

[Reya]

OK, my kids are definitely NOT gifted then! My kids were and are great sleepers and were such good easy babies. I think they were just bright, and chatty!

 

Nonono!

 

First, it's just a statistical likelihood. Even if 99.9% of gifted babies are like this (and it's not that many), .1% wouldn't be.

 

Second, there are many levels of giftedness, and this is a lot more common among the extremely gifted, which are a small minority of the gifted!

 

:-)

[Reya]

There is not an all-inclusive definition for giftedness. Although some intelligent people are gifted, not all are. And not all gifted people are intelligent, as measured by tests.

 

"Gifted" is a term like "mentally retarded" used to replace other, less acceptable words once used for the same end of the IQ spectrum. Mentally retarded became pejorative, so now there are new euphemisms for that, and gifted offended people, so they're tried to co-opt it for other meanings. But those are tacked-on and incoherent meanings created to try to make everybody feel all warm and fuzzy.

[Reya]

Boredom usually isn't an issue for a gifted child. He will finish the assigned easy task then move on to something else. Even with *nothing* to do, the gifted child's brain doesn't shut off quickly. They can have behavior issues, but generally the misbehavior doesn't stem from being bored.

 

And this is one of the most harmful, infuriating lies about gifted children in education today.

[Reya]

I don't think there was any reason to think she was gifted. She was just who she was. My family is not big on "labels".

 

It would not have made any difference to them to have her labeled "gifted".

 

Which is exactly why achievement falls off among the highly gifted, and exactly the source of deep bitterness and continuing anger of the very gifted against their childhood educations.

 

If a child's ability does not matter--which is what you are saying when you say "giftedness" doesn't matter--then it is perfectly adequate for every child to have the same education, regardless of its appropriateness to the individual.

 

C.S. Lewis wrote this on the subject:

 

What I want to fix your attention on is the vast overall movement towards the discrediting, and finally the elimination, of every kind of human excellence -- moral, cultural, social or intellectual. And is it not pretty to notice how 'democracy' (in the incantatory sense) is now doing for us the work that was once done by the most ancient dictatorships, and by the same methods? The basic proposal of the new education is to be that dunces and idlers must not be made to feel inferior to intelligent and industrious pupils. That would be 'undemocratic.' Children who are fit to proceed may be artifically kept back, because the others would get a trauma by being left behind. The bright pupil thus remains democratically fettered to his own age group throughout his school career, and a boy who would be capable of tackling Aeschylus or Dante sits listening to his coeval's attempts to spell out A CAT SAT ON A MAT. We may reasonably hope for the virtual abolition of education when 'I'm as good as you' has fully had its way. All incentives to learn and all penalties for not learning will vanish. The few who might want to learn will be prevented; who are they to overtop their fellows? And anyway, the teachers -- or should I say nurses? -- will be far too busy reassuring the dunces and patting them on the back to waste any time on real teaching. We shall no longer have to plan and toil to spread imperturbable conceit and incurable ignorance among men.

 

And this is EXACLYwhat has happened in our schools, and exactly what attitudes like this one espouse.

 

"You know, that sort of thing--labels--don't really matter to us. It's all just elitism and bragging. Children who are really gifted come out okay no matter what, anyway."

 

"You know, I don't care what my child's ability really is, nor do I have any desire in making sure I'm nurturing the virtues of hard work and perseverance in him. I want my child to be challenged to the lowest common denominator. Children who are really gifted deserve to be punished by boredom and should be taught to be lazy to keep them from doing too well and upsetting other people--"okay" is as good as any child deserves."

[Aggie]

And this is one of the most harmful, infuriating lies about gifted children in education today.

 

I disagree with many of your statements, but I am interested in your education and experience with gifted children, besides your own.

 

In my pp, I'm not referring to 1 week old gifted children who are bored in their bouncy seats, btw. ;)

[Ritsumei]

His self esteem is super fragile and he only does something if he's sure he can succeed. Trying is very, very hard for him.

HTH

 

I spent a huge amount of time looking for an article that I read a while back about the way that people praise kids and the effect it has on their school work. Sadly, I can't find it, so all I can do is tell you about it.

 

They've done some studies on praising kids for their smarts as opposed to praising them for their work. Turns out that it makes a huge difference. They found that praising kids for being smart makes them reluctant to take risks and makes them perceive needing to work to get it right as something that dumb people have to do. But when they took low achieving kids out and taught them that the brain grows when it's worked then there was a marked improvement in their efforts and grades. I've seen stuff on that sort of thing a couple of times, and in the one article they had a flunking 5th grader quoted as saying, "You mean I don't have to be dumb anymore?" They talked about how it's particularly something that you see among the "gifted" kids: they think that if they work it means they're not smart as they thought they were, so they only try things they're sure they will succeed at.

 

The "prescription" they offered was to teach ourselves to praise our children for their work and their effort. And to keep the mouth shut about how smart the kids are. I, personally, find that extremely hard to do!

 

 

:lurk5: <--My 3 year old insists that I need popcorn. Enjoy!

[Mandy in TN]

Which is exactly why achievement falls off among the highly gifted, and exactly the source of deep bitterness and continuing anger of the very gifted against their childhood educations.

 

If a child's ability does not matter--which is what you are saying when you say "giftedness" doesn't matter--then it is perfectly adequate for every child to have the same education, regardless of its appropriateness to the individual.

 

C.S. Lewis wrote this on the subject:

 

What I want to fix your attention on is the vast overall movement towards the discrediting, and finally the elimination, of every kind of human excellence -- moral, cultural, social or intellectual. And is it not pretty to notice how 'democracy' (in the incantatory sense) is now doing for us the work that was once done by the most ancient dictatorships, and by the same methods? The basic proposal of the new education is to be that dunces and idlers must not be made to feel inferior to intelligent and industrious pupils. That would be 'undemocratic.' Children who are fit to proceed may be artifically kept back, because the others would get a trauma by being left behind. The bright pupil thus remains democratically fettered to his own age group throughout his school career, and a boy who would be capable of tackling Aeschylus or Dante sits listening to his coeval's attempts to spell out A CAT SAT ON A MAT. We may reasonably hope for the virtual abolition of education when 'I'm as good as you' has fully had its way. All incentives to learn and all penalties for not learning will vanish. The few who might want to learn will be prevented; who are they to overtop their fellows? And anyway, the teachers -- or should I say nurses? -- will be far too busy reassuring the dunces and patting them on the back to waste any time on real teaching. We shall no longer have to plan and toil to spread imperturbable conceit and incurable ignorance among men.

 

And this is EXACLYwhat has happened in our schools, and exactly what attitudes like this one espouse.

 

"You know, that sort of thing--labels--don't really matter to us. It's all just elitism and bragging. Children who are really gifted come out okay no matter what, anyway."

 

"You know, I don't care what my child's ability really is, nor do I have any desire in making sure I'm nurturing the virtues of hard work and perseverance in him. I want my child to be challenged to the lowest common denominator. Children who are really gifted deserve to be punished by boredom and should be taught to be lazy to keep them from doing too well and upsetting other people--"okay" is as good as any child deserves."

:iagree:

 

Reya and I haven't always seen eye-to-eye one how we are choosing to approach the education of our boys, but she is dead spot on with this one. There is just no other way to see it.

 

Wasn't this the theme of the Disney movie The Incredibles? Didn't the father and the son both say something just like this? Didn't we see how bored and frustrated the father was when he was unable to use his gifts? Didn't we see how the little boy was disruptive and found inappropriate ways to use his gift? Didn't we see how by denying her gift the little girl was unable to develop a positive self-image?

 

Being intelligent is a gift and just like a parent proudly cheering on the star soccer player, the parent of an intellectually exceptional child should be cheering him to further his gift instead of dancing around trying to downplay his talents!

 

Mandy

Edited October 8, 2009 by Mandy in TN

[Sputterduck]

Nope. IQ, plain and simple.

 

 

Thank you. I hate the idea that children must be behaviorally difficult to be gifted. It is incorrect and rather insulting.

 

You had to go and quote C.S Lewis? :001_wub: I adore his writings.

[Reya]

I disagree with many of your statements, but I am interested in your education and experience with gifted children, besides your own.

 

In my pp, I'm not referring to 1 week old gifted children who are bored in their bouncy seats, btw. ;)

 

How about my SOURCES? Try any valid study about gifted children. Try, especially, studies about high-gifted-plus children.

 

I rarely get angry on the boards, but the promotion of the educational and emotional abuse of children because of how they are born--frankly, it infuriates me. People use excuses like that one to ask children to endure situations no adult would countenance.

 

You're talking about BRIGHT kids, not gifted kids. You're talking about kids who finish their work a little early, not, at the other extreme, Kindergarteners who are ready for Algebra and who read at an 8th grade level.

 

Start here:

 

http://perspectives.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=153099&forum_id=96

 

Then read this:

 

Genius Denied: How to Stop Wasting Our Brightest Young Minds by Bob and Jan Davidson

 

5 Levels of Gifted by Deborah Ruf

 

Exceptionally Gifted Children by Miraca Gross

 

Misdiagnoses and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults by the Eides

 

 

Here are a few of Hollingsworth's quotes that I've seen not just int he article above but any number of times. They are extraordinarily insightful:

 

"Children with IQs up to 150 get along in the ordinary course of school life quite well, achieving excellent marks without serious effort. But children above this mental status become almost intolerably bored with school work if kept in lockstep with unselected pupils of their own age. Children who rise above 170 IQ are liable to regard school with indifference or with positive dislike, for they find nothing in the work to absorb their interest. This condition of affairs, coupled with the supervision of unseeing and unsympathetic teachers, has sometimes led even to truancy on the part of gifted children...."

 

Let me state clearly that the fate of high-IQ children is NOT that of misanthropy, bitterness, and underachievement...IF THEY ARE PROPERLY EDUCATED and if their intellectual needs are met by other people FROM YOUTH, when they haven't the power to seek out others like themselves.

 

Some people, however, against all reason and all research, seek systematically to punish the very gifted and to try stifle, as much as possible, their abilities through inappropriate education.

 

You are advocating the equivalent of placing a dead-average child in the lowest self-contained special education class and confining him to no more than the activities done in that class because "he'll turn out okay" and "if he's really normal, he can entertain himself...while being required to sit still, look straight ahead, and not disturb the class."

 

Of all the people I know with likely IQs above 160 (and I know a number), I can't name three who do not have extensive wounds from this kind of "education." Children recognize when they're being punished, no matter what pretty name it's given.

 

And if you still believe that the oppression is "accidental":

 

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/ridiculous_things.htm

Edited October 8, 2009 by Reya

[Mandy in TN]

I disagree with many of your statements, but I am interested in your education and experience with gifted children, besides your own.

 

In my pp, I'm not referring to 1 week old gifted children who are bored in their bouncy seats, btw. ;)

 

They talked about how it's particularly something that you see among the "gifted" kids: they think that if they work it means they're not smart as they thought they were, so they only try things they're sure they will succeed at.

 

The "prescription" they offered was to teach ourselves to praise our children for their work and their effort. And to keep the mouth shut about how smart the kids are. I, personally, find that extremely hard to do!

 

Our Kumon Center currently has nearly 30 students in pre-K through 5 grade working at least two grades ahead of their grade level in math. Many of these gifted/ accelerated kids are perfectionists. Not because they have been told that they are smart, but because gifted children place this sort of pressure on themselves. Kumon is designed to instill work ethic. These children understand that they receive no hand outs: that every level they advance they must complete the work with speed and accuracy. OTOH- they also understand that they do not have to wait until the teacher moves to the next topic or until the child next to them understands before they can advance. These children love their annual awards ceremony. They love the recognition they receive for the levels they have completed. Granted these are awards for work completed, but these children completed the work at the speed they were able not at the speed a school dictated. They are excited to be told that they are smart and capable.

 

Most of these accelerated Kumon students attend traditional classrooms. Their parents bring them to Kumon so they can be challenged and acknowledged for doing as much as they are able. The primary complaint of these parents, "My child is bored."

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Reya]

Thank you. I hate the idea that children must be behaviorally difficult to be gifted. It is incorrect and rather insulting.

 

You had to go and quote C.S Lewis? :001_wub: I adore his writings.

 

One of the unfortunate things is that those who do misbehave get modifications, while those who don't just suffer!

 

My kids are exhausting, and DS is distractable, but they're very well behaved.

 

With any luck, they won't grow up with the truckload of bitterness and bad habits my education gave me.

[Reya]

On the "keep your mouth shut on how smart they are"--well, *I* could, but strangers would still say it. Far easier is to redefine intelligence.

 

Being stupid is not using your brain as well as it can be used--whatever that brain may be. Being smart is using it well.

 

The next door neighbor's kid with Down syndrome is smart when he learns a new word. My DS is smart when he does his above-level work quickly and with attention to detail.

 

Problem solved! :-P

[Mandy in TN]

Of all the people I know with likely IQs above 160 (and I know a number), I can't name three who do not have extensive wounds from this kind of "education." Children recognize when they're being punished, no matter what pretty name it's given.

:iagree:

bolding mine

 

And I would even lower the IQ figures mentioned. Trust me. A child capable of doing algebra in 5th grade (yes I have a student in mind) who is told that he must wait until 8th because that is how the school is run knows he is being punished.

Mandy

Edited October 8, 2009 by Mandy in TN

[zaichiki]

I spent a huge amount of time looking for an article that I read a while back about the way that people praise kids and the effect it has on their school work. Sadly, I can't find it, so all I can do is tell you about it.

 

They've done some studies on praising kids for their smarts as opposed to praising them for their work. Turns out that it makes a huge difference. They found that praising kids for being smart makes them reluctant to take risks and makes them perceive needing to work to get it right as something that dumb people have to do. But when they took low achieving kids out and taught them that the brain grows when it's worked then there was a marked improvement in their efforts and grades. I've seen stuff on that sort of thing a couple of times, and in the one article they had a flunking 5th grader quoted as saying, "You mean I don't have to be dumb anymore?" They talked about how it's particularly something that you see among the "gifted" kids: they think that if they work it means they're not smart as they thought they were, so they only try things they're sure they will succeed at.

 

The "prescription" they offered was to teach ourselves to praise our children for their work and their effort. And to keep the mouth shut about how smart the kids are. I, personally, find that extremely hard to do!

 

 

:lurk5: <--My 3 year old insists that I need popcorn. Enjoy!

 

But kids can be perfectionists WITHOUT being "trained" into it by praise. We've *always* praised our kids for working hard and we *don't* tell them they're "smart." My oldest has *always* been a perfectionist. This is the way I see it: things always seem to come easily to him. He gets success and sees results without having to work. He doesn't need ME to tell him that. His brain connects the dots. When something *doesn't* seem to happen magically, or come easily, he thinks something's wrong. When it comes to gifted kids who are perfectionists, it's not necessarily praise-related.

 

Here's an example of what I mean -- when ds was 5 he began cello lessons. He desperately wanted to play the last song on the Suzuki Cello Book 1 CD. He asked his teacher to teach him that song (at the first lesson). Of course, she smiled and encouraged him and explained about starting at the beginning and learning the important things first. She was really patient with him. BUT the first time he played a little song he was devastated: he sounded NOTHING like his 32-year-old, studied-Suzuki-since-she-was 2.5, professional (plays for the Boston Pops) teacher! He decided he was *awful* at the cello and it took several weeks for him to recover.

Edited October 8, 2009 by zaichiki

[Mandy in TN]

strangers would still say it. Far easier is to redefine intelligence.

Although little ds has never been tested, here is an example from yesterday.

 

6yo ds spent 30min with middle ds's high school math tutor. (It was a special present from me and something he has wanted to do for a long time.) I left it very open ended and just suggested to the tutor (he teaches Geometry and Alg2 at a local public school) that they discuss fractions.

I sat across the hall and listened. They were discussing LCDs and how if the sum of the digits of a number is divisible by three then the original number is also divisible by three. Well, of course, ds already knew that. It's what he said next that had me grinning. As the tutor is explaining that both the denominators are divisible by three, the little guy says that yes they are both divisible by three but they are also both even numbers therefore they are both divisible by six so why don't we use six so we don't have to do two steps. Well, he was never taught that. He just figured it out. When he works with someone, he pushes them further instead of them pushing him further.

When the little guy finished, the tutor was grinning ear to ear telling me how much fun he had and that the little man had a greater command of numbers than a lot of his high schoolers. He gushed on and on about how quick he was.

 

I certainly have no need to tell ds how smart he is. Other people do it all the time.

Mandy

[Aggie]

How about my SOURCES? Try any valid study about gifted children. Try, especially, studies about high-gifted-plus children.

 

I rarely get angry on the boards, but the promotion of the educational and emotional abuse of children because of how they are born--frankly, it infuriates me. People use excuses like that one to ask children to endure situations no adult would countenance.

 

You're talking about BRIGHT kids, not gifted kids. You're talking about kids who finish their work a little early, not, at the other extreme, Kindergarteners who are ready for Algebra and who read at an 8th grade level.

 

Start here:

 

http://perspectives.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=153099&forum_id=96

 

Then read this:

 

Genius Denied: How to Stop Wasting Our Brightest Young Minds by Bob and Jan Davidson

 

5 Levels of Gifted by Deborah Ruf

 

Exceptionally Gifted Children by Miraca Gross

 

Misdiagnoses and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults by the Eides

 

 

Here are a few of Hollingsworth's quotes that I've seen not just int he article above but any number of times. They are extraordinarily insightful:

 

"Children with IQs up to 150 get along in the ordinary course of school life quite well, achieving excellent marks without serious effort. But children above this mental status become almost intolerably bored with school work if kept in lockstep with unselected pupils of their own age. Children who rise above 170 IQ are liable to regard school with indifference or with positive dislike, for they find nothing in the work to absorb their interest. This condition of affairs, coupled with the supervision of unseeing and unsympathetic teachers, has sometimes led even to truancy on the part of gifted children...."

 

Let me state clearly that the fate of high-IQ children is NOT that of misanthropy, bitterness, and underachievement...IF THEY ARE PROPERLY EDUCATED and if their intellectual needs are met by other people FROM YOUTH, when they haven't the power to seek out others like themselves.

 

Some people, however, against all reason and all research, seek systematically to punish the very gifted and to try stifle, as much as possible, their abilities through inappropriate education.

 

You are advocating the equivalent of placing a dead-average child in the lowest self-contained special education class and confining him to no more than the activities done in that class because "he'll turn out okay" and "if he's really normal, he can entertain himself...while being required to sit still, look straight ahead, and not disturb the class."

 

Of all the people I know with likely IQs above 160 (and I know a number), I can't name three who do not have extensive wounds from this kind of "education." Children recognize when they're being punished, no matter what pretty name it's given.

 

And if you still believe that the oppression is "accidental":

 

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/ridiculous_things.htm

 

I've not communicated well, obviously. The op wants to know how to tell if her dc is gifted. I was giving her some things to look for. I'm *not* advocating keeping any students in the wrong class for any reason. I taught the gifted and was (still am) an advocate for them and classes to enhance their education.

 

I don't think people "seek to systematically punish the gifted". I believe it is a very specialized field and there aren't many people who are qualified and willing to take on gifted education. It's tough work and in the ps it doesn't pay well.

 

Apologies for not being clear in my first post.

[zaichiki]

I certainly have no need to tell ds how smart he is. Other people do it all the time.

Mandy

 

This is true, too... and how do you stop it? You can't. So, if the books/authors/professionals who suggest that telling kids they are smart will ultimately be limiting to them are correct, it is a lost cause.

[elizabeth]

And this is one of the most harmful, infuriating lies about gifted children in education today.

 

Thanks for saying so well what I am too frustrated to say again. And again. I really wish the govt would stop funding teachers colleges that promote ideas that have absolutely no scientific or evidentiary basis whatsoever. Apparently the report from the Belin Blank Center is simply preaching to the choir as it sure has not changed any theoretical or practical applications otherwise. http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/ I have decided that the information in the study is best used to hit my head against every time I have to hear the same old carp I heard 35 years ago.

[Mandy in TN]

I have decided that the information in the study is best used to hit my head against

 

:lol::lol::lol:

Mandy

[angela in ohio]

Thank you. I hate the idea that children must be behaviorally difficult to be gifted. It is incorrect and rather insulting.

 

I didn't say behaviorally difficult.

[Sputterduck]

I didn't say behaviorally difficult.

 

 

Fine. You said, "When it is only a positive thing, they are just accelerated or advanced. When there are negatives, too, they are gifted. :001_smile:"

 

That is not true. It is based solely off of IQ. I do not like the idea that giftedness necessarily comes with problems. It's insulting.

[zaichiki]

And not all gifted people are intelligent, as measured by tests.

 

Aggie,

Can you explain this please? I'm not sure I understand. (I thought gifted, by definition, meant high intelligence -- on IQ tests.)

 

 

Thanks.

:)

[zaichiki]

Fine. You said, "When it is only a positive thing, they are just accelerated or advanced. When there are negatives, too, they are gifted. :001_smile:"

 

That is not true. It is based solely off of IQ. I do not like the idea that giftedness necessarily comes with problems. It's insulting.

 

Perhaps people see overexcitabilities as negatives? Many gifted people have some sort of overexcitability (what are they again? emotional, sensory,...). I think it's possible to be gifted and NOT have overexcitabilities, though. But maybe they're just so common, that they become part of some people's definition? Don't know.

[angela in ohio]

Fine. You said, "When it is only a positive thing, they are just accelerated or advanced. When there are negatives, too, they are gifted. :001_smile:"

 

That is not true. It is based solely off of IQ. I do not like the idea that giftedness necessarily comes with problems. It's insulting.

 

Trying to meet the needs of a gifted child is like being dragged behind a galloping horse. When it's all hunky-dory and they are just happily doing their school work well, that's great, but when you get a dc with an inner drive and thirst, that's giftedness and it makes life interesting. As Reya said, " As far as babies go, smarter babies are usually a lot more exhausting." Having a gifted child is exhausting and can be downright anxiety-producing.

 

OP was looking for thoughts on how we know our dc are gifted. I shared my (tongue in cheek) opinion, and then followed that with saying that I only use the gifted label because we have had IQ testing.

[KidsHappen]

Most siblings have IQs within 15 points of each other. Most have IQs within 10 points of each other, in fact. So if one is gifted, they probably all are, barring special circumstances.

 

IQ is also a heritable attribute so if the parents are gifted then it is likely the children will be also. I was considered gifted and my hubby is smarter than I am so I assume that my children are gifted as well epsecially since they all seem to be much smarter than I am. As a homeschool parent, I have really had no need to know so I haven't bothered with testing most of them. Finally giftedness has no real bearing on success. My oldest has an IQ of 162 and unfortunately he is not successful by any standard of measurement. Hard work and determination are very important. A child can be gifted across the board or in one particular attribute. Other variables that contribute to a high IQ is socioeconomic status, high birth weights and the nutritional state of the mother during pregnancy as well as the child's nutrional state during early development. There are more but I can't remember them right now. I wrote them down some where but the likelyhood of me finding them anytime in the near future is remote. :D

[Ritsumei]

But kids can be perfectionists WITHOUT being "trained" into it by praise. We've *always* praised our kids for working hard and we *don't* tell them they're "smart." My oldest has *always* been a perfectionist. This is the way I see it: things always seem to come easily to him. He gets success and sees results without having to work. He doesn't need ME to tell him that. His brain connects the dots. When something *doesn't* seem to happen magically, or come easily, he thinks something's wrong. When it comes to gifted kids who are perfectionists, it's not necessarily praise-related.

 

This is entirely true. Kids are generally smarter than they're given credit for, and it's often downright HARD to keep up with what gifted kids will throw at you! I've seen that same thing with my piano students, and it can be difficult to deal with. I guess that my point (Which was not well spoken at all, as I go back and look at what I said.) was that perhaps we can help them out with how we praise. Work ethic is, to a large degree, taught, and when things come easily it's something that will probably need additional attention. Which is, of course, only a piece of the puzzle.

 

It's too bad that I can't find the actual article, which is what I was really trying to share in the first place.

[Reya]

My oldest has *always* been a perfectionist. This is the way I see it: things always seem to come easily to him. He gets success and sees results without having to work. He doesn't need ME to tell him that. His brain connects the dots. When something *doesn't* seem to happen magically, or come easily, he thinks something's wrong. When it comes to gifted kids who are perfectionists, it's not necessarily praise-related.

 

This is why I constantly challenge DS. I make sure that ONE thing a day is a stretch for him. He can phone in the rest for all I care--don't want to stress him out. But I do want to stretch him!

 

Inability to handle challenge is a MAJOR risk of bright/gifted kids, and it can cause serious problems down the line.

 

Some kids, though, are like that no matter what you do. I watched a friend of mine's daughter spend 20 minutes agonizing over what pumpkin in the pumpkin patch to pick out because it had to be PERFECT. :-)

[Reya]

Finally giftedness has no real bearing on success. My oldest has an IQ of 162 and unfortunately he is not successful by any standard of measurement. Hard work and determination are very important. A child can be gifted across the board or in one particular attribute. Other variables that contribute to a high IQ is socioeconomic status, high birth weights and the nutritional state of the mother during pregnancy as well as the child's nutrional state during early development. There are more but I can't remember them right now. I wrote them down some where but the likelyhood of me finding them anytime in the near future is remote. :D

 

Well, yes and no.

 

IQ is strongly correlated with success up to a point--and then the smarter you are, on average, you grow LESS successful. When things are hard enough to be a challenge but manageable, hard work is encouraged. When they're too easy, laziness and indifference are the results.

 

If the very highest IQ kids were appropriately challenged, we'd see the troubling trend reverse.

[zaichiki]

Other variables that contribute to a high IQ is socioeconomic status, high birth weights and the nutritional state of the mother during pregnancy as well as the child's nutrional state during early development. There are more but I can't remember them right now. I wrote them down some where but the likelyhood of me finding them anytime in the near future is remote. :D

 

Something I've always wondered...

 

Do these variables *cause* higher IQ or do they stem, generally, from the higher IQ of the parents? Perhaps the genetic link is really the key and the environmental influence is a factor of that? Generally.

 

(Could people with higher IQs TEND to end up with higher socioeconomic status and better education -- which leads to better prenatal care?)

 

I *know* there are exceptions on both sides... just wondering about generalities and the chicken and the egg thing.

[Hockey Mom]

Well, when I was little I was sent to a college in our city on Tuesday nights where the graduate students played games with me. They also tested my IQ, gave me puzzles to solve, and did other random stuff with me. This was all done because my teachers thought I was some sort of genius and set it up with the college. I guess I assumed that some students are labeled gifted through this process, but I'm not really sure.

 

 

I went through this as a child as well. From PreK (age 4) until first grade (when we moved away). I never knew why I was sent there until I was an adult.

 

I have toyed with the idea of having my children tested. But then, I don't like labels, so I probably won't. Seems like too much pressure for a kid.