Jewish faith question-Would someone be able to explain to me as simply as possible

[Erica in PA]

You cannot be a Jew and believe in Jesus it simply does not work that way.

 

 

 

Why?

[st_claire]

Well...that moves back over into ethnicity instead of religion. Judaism has always had converts, & from what I understand, that's ok.

 

As far as ethnicity goes, the Jewish-born *have* had the option to claim Judaism or not sometimes. I've read stories of blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jews "hiding" their ethnicity to avoid the Nazis.

 

I assumed you were asking whether or not a person would be faithful to his (proclaimed) faith when that faith was under some kind of scrutiny. And I think in all religions, there will be some who follow what they believe to the death, while others will falter.

 

I'd guess that it would be hard to predict who'd fall where.

 

To convert one must undergo a very complex program of study and boys must be cut. I don't think the Jews who believe in Jesus go through those requirements. But please correct me if that is wrong.

 

Very few jews are blonde haired blue eyes. Most could not hide their faith even if they wanted to (though very few would want to I suspect).

 

That is what I was asking, and it does apply to all religions I agree, but jews in particular have a rich history of suffering.

[Spy Car]

I think that the new Muslim is claiming precisely that.

 

Carol, there is a clear distinction between a person believing their new found faith on a theological level supercedes their old faith, and a situation where this person takes on the "name" of the old faith (and claiming it as their own) while practicing the new faith.

 

A Christian who converts to Islam is a Muslim. I've never heard of a Christian converting to Islam calling themselves by name "Completed Christians". And if they did, I believe it would provoke (understandable) upset among Christians who practice Christianity.

 

Bill

[Aubrey]

Please don't say that. I never said anyone was lying. I'm sure that Jews who embrace Jesus as their savior are entirely sincere in their faith.

 

This is where I got that idea:

No. I'm saying that if Muslims in a country where there was a tiny Christian population stated calling themselves "completed Christians" but practiced Islam while retaining some of the trappings and rituals of Christianity, and aimed their movement at converting Christians while declaring their faith was actually Christianity it might upset some people.

 

They just aren't practicing Judaism, they've converted to a form of Christianity. Why not be proud of that?

 

Sure. Whether it's a Jewish denomination of Christianity or a Christian denomination of Judaism or something else altogether, I think it's fair to want to denote the differences & similarities. If we call it a *form* of Christianity rather than a form of Judaism, does that make a difference? They're not Baptist or Presbyterian. What shall we call them?

 

But Aubrey, there are elements of these two faiths that are mutually exclusive, in the same way one can't be a practicing Christian and a Muslim at the same time.

 

*They* don't think so, & I think that's the point. Armenian & reformed Christians could make the same argument about ea other. (And sometimes they do, lol.)

 

I never said anyone was "wrong" nor have I suggested anyone is lying. Please don't hang these ideas on my head, because I said nothing of the kind. OK?

 

Well...you either think these people are wrong, lying, or don't exist. I understood you to think them "wrong" when you said that the 2 faiths that they proclaim are mutually exclusive. I understood you to think them "liars" when you described them as pretending to practice one faith while really trying to covertly trick followers of that faith into another, wholly different faith.

[Carol in Cal.]

Carol, there is a clear distinction between a person believing their new found faith on a theological level supercedes their old faith, and a situation where this person takes on the "name" of the old faith (and claiming it as their own) while practicing the new faith.

 

Bill

 

I don't believe there is a clear distinction in that case.

 

Here's an analogy to illustrate why:

 

Say someone is Buddist and becomes Christian. Or say someone is Christian and becomes Buddist. Either way, the sequence is between two completely distinct faiths. At one point you're one, and at another point you're another, and they have no real relationship to each other.

 

But if someone who has followed the Jewish faith becomes Christian, or if someone who follows the Christian faith becomes Muslim, they have joined a faith that regards their prior faith as being the roots of their new one. The prior faith was right for a while, the new one thinks, but became wrong precisely because and when it was superceded or completed by the new one. Same idea in either case. The cases are analogous. And if that is truly the teaching of the second faith, although the belief is offensive to the first one, the second one still needs to be able to state their own belief as well, obnoxious though it may feel to the first one. I, for one, would rather hear that that is what Muslims, for instance, believe, than to be ignorant about it, even though I strongly disagree and am frankly offended by the belief itself. I would still rather hear it truthfully. Your mileage may vary, certainly.

[Aubrey]

To convert one must undergo a very complex program of study and boys must be cut. I don't think the Jews who believe in Jesus go through those requirements. But please correct me if that is wrong.

 

Some do. I do not know about all.

 

Very few jews are blonde haired blue eyes. Most could not hide their faith even if they wanted to (though very few would want to I suspect).

 

That is what I was asking, and it does apply to all religions I agree, but jews in particular have a rich history of suffering.

 

Honestly, whether it is well-expressed or not, it is (ime) a deep respect & love for the Jewish people AND faith that motivates people claiming the title Messianic Jew.

 

You know how they say--mimicry is the highest form of compliment. Maybe that's not the best way to put it, but something like that begins to get at what I'm trying to say.

[tex-mex]

Maybe the real question is in times of suffering, would they still call themselves jews or would they claim to be christians?

 

Well, this may be off topic... but haven't in times of crisis Conversos (Sephardic Jews from Spain) "converted" to Catholicism to avoid persecution? In 1492 when King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain ordered all Jews to convert to Christianity or be banished from the kingdom. Up to 50,000 of Spain's 125,000 to 200,000 Jews were baptized, joining 225,000 descendants of the converts of previous generations. The others would not give up their religion. Some fled to North Africa, Italy, and Navarre (then a kingdom on the border between Spain and France). Many more went to Portugal, though Portugal itself would soon demand conversion, and thousands of Jews there also underwent baptism. In both Spain and Portugal many conversos sincerely embraced the Church and intermarried with so-called Old Christians. A smaller number, however, continued secretly in their old beliefs, under cover of Catholicism. These were the crypto-Jews.

 

The journeys to the New World allowed the Conversos to exit per the King's orders and flee for their lives. Most emigrated to outposts in the New World. Which is why Santa Fe, NM was one place of refuge for them to practice their Jewish faith in secret.

 

And, because the Inquisition in Mexico City kept a close watch on its flock for more than two centuries, there never was a time when they could safely 'return' to their true faith. So it is remarkable that some hispanic New Mexican families could know today that they are descendants of Spanish Jews. Cut off for centuries from the evolution of Jewish practice, nonetheless their families have passed on remnants of Jewish prayer, sabbath observances, burial and food preparation customs. Without knowing what they meant, they have preserved many small fragments of Sephardic tradition, disguised and hidden, for more than 400 years.

 

Ashkenzai Jews now outnumber Sephardic Jews. Centuries ago, it was the opposite. I realize this veers from the OP... but does bring up a point of what do you do when your faith is on trial? What would you do?

[Aubrey]

But if someone who has followed the Jewish faith becomes Christian, or if someone who follows the Christian faith becomes Muslim, they have joined a faith that regards their prior faith as being the roots of their new one. The prior faith was right for a while, the new one thinks, but became wrong precisely because and when it was superceded or completed by the new one. Same idea in either case. The cases are analogous.

 

But I don't think that *any* Messianic Jews (or Jewish Christians?) would say that the Jewish faith EVER became *wrong.* If they believed that, they *couldn't* be Jewish. They would be completely, *only* Christian. (Aside from cultural issues.)

[Carol in Cal.]

But I don't think that *any* Messianic Jews (or Jewish Christians?) would say that the Jewish faith EVER became *wrong.* If they believed that, they *couldn't* be Jewish. They would be completely, *only* Christian. (Aside from cultural issues.)

 

Not wrong, just not complete. Or perhaps not wrong, but insufficient.

[Aubrey]

Not wrong, just not complete. Or perhaps not wrong, but insufficient.

 

Those are both negative terms. I think I see what you're getting at, but I might describe it differently. I mean...was Abraham's faith insufficient? Or David's?

 

What if the Group in Question believes that the faith of Abraham & David *are* complete & always were because he/she believes that Jesus *was* there in their experiences, but invisible? So that the faith of Abraham & the faith of Peter are utterly indistinguishable? So that Jesus simply repeats what was said before but w/ an inflection that makes them say, "Aha!"

[st_claire]

Ashkenzai Jews now outnumber Sephardic Jews. Centuries ago, it was the opposite. I realize this veers from the OP... but does bring up a point of what do you do when your faith is on trial? What would you do?

 

The point I was trying to make is that Jews don't have a choice about it. Even if you say you love Jesus, Nazis would still kill you because your blood is jewish. It is the fact that Jews are an ethnicity aswell as a religion, unlike Christianity for example.

[Carol in Cal.]

Those are both negative terms. I think I see what you're getting at, but I might describe it differently. I mean...was Abraham's faith insufficient? Or David's?

 

What if the Group in Question believes that the faith of Abraham & David *are* complete & always were because he/she believes that Jesus *was* there in their experiences, but invisible? So that the faith of Abraham & the faith of Peter are utterly indistinguishable? So that Jesus simply repeats what was said before but w/ an inflection that makes them say, "Aha!"

 

Do you see what I mean?

 

BTW, I do see what you mean, but we are talking about two different things.

 

To follow on your comments--if the later group believes that the earlier group was complete because they are really one, in the sense that you are talking about, then if the members of the old group fail to move to the new at all, they are regarded by the new as incomplete at that point. Someone who looked forward to the new but failed to recognize it when it came would be in that category.

[tex-mex]

The point I was trying to make is that Jews don't have a choice about it. Even if you say you love Jesus, Nazis would still kill you because your blood is jewish. It is the fact that Jews are an ethnicity aswell as a religion, unlike Christianity for example.

 

I see where you are coming from. But along those lines, you can also state that the Nazis killed homosexuals -- I don't think anyone is arguing ethnicity. Persecution can be in any form. Human rights cases are worldwide for unfair treatment of fellow human beings.

[Spy Car]

This is where I got that idea:

 

Well that is quite a leap. As it happens Muslims do believe in Jesus. They believe he was a great prophet of God. In some ways the greatest prophet because among all the prophets (including all the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, who Muslims also embrace), Jesus alone performed miracles (or more accurately was the only prophet though whom God performed miracles).

 

I never said anyone was lying. Muslims revere Jesus.

 

Sure. Whether it's a Jewish denomination of Christianity or a Christian denomination of Judaism or something else altogether, I think it's fair to want to denote the differences & similarities. If we call it a *form* of Christianity rather than a form of Judaism, does that make a difference?

 

It certainly matters to Jews who practice Judaism.

 

They're not Baptist or Presbyterian. What shall we call them?

 

From the nineteenth century when this movement started, and through the 1960's and 70's when it began to grow beyond a very tiny group, they called themselves "Hebraic Christians." I doubt that term would upset Jews who practice Judiasm, where "Messianic Judaism" most definately makes people meshugenah.

 

 

*They* don't think so, & I think that's the point. Armenian & reformed Christians could make the same argument about ea other. (And sometimes they do, lol.)

 

Again, these are inter-faith disputes, and not germane to the discussion.

 

Well...you either think these people are wrong, lying, or don't exist.

 

Again, I plead with you to stop attributing ideas to me that are not my own. I speak (or write) clearly and with candor. And I never said anyone was lying, wrong or non-existent, please stop.

 

 

I understood you to think them "wrong" when you said that the 2 faiths that they proclaim are mutually exclusive.

 

I never said someone was right and someone is wrong. Christianity and Judaism are just different faiths. Same with Islam.

 

I understood you to think them "liars" when you described them as pretending to practice one faith while really trying to covertly trick followers of that faith into another, wholly different faith.

 

I never said anyone was "pretending" anything or suggested it was a covert trick. I don't understand why you insist on making things up that I never said (and don't believe).

 

I'm sure Jews who have embraced Christianity (that is to say they believe Jesus is their savior and divine) are nothing but sincere in wanting to share their new-found faith with others. Not a problem.

 

The point I've tried to make is that Jews who practice Judaism deeply dislike having these followers of Jesus calling their faith "Messianic Judaism". It causes grave offense.

 

Bill

[Carol in Cal.]

The point I was trying to make is that Jews don't have a choice about it. Even if you say you love Jesus, Nazis would still kill you because your blood is jewish. It is the fact that Jews are an ethnicity aswell as a religion, unlike Christianity for example.

 

It was horrible on every level. It was horrible that Jews were killed because they were Jews. It was horrible that Jews who followed Judaism were killed and that Jews who followed Christ were killed. It was all horrible, and there was no choice in the matter.

 

One of the other grotesque things about it was the way that prejudices were taught to everyone as well. It is really quite horrifying to hear someone who was taught to hate Jews as a child refer to them in her 70's in ways that she has had plenty of time and experience to learn to grow out of. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

 

I read so many fiction books set in Europe during WWII as a teenager, and they painted the Nazi's as so horrid that it gave me a sense of distance from the whole thing. The single most horrifying part of the Anne Frank exhibit for me was realizing that it is not unthinkable that something like that could happen again.

[tex-mex]

 

I read so many fiction books set in Europe during WWII as a teenager, and they painted the Nazi's as so horrid that it gave me a sense of distance from the whole thing. The single most horrifying part of the Anne Frank exhibit for me was realizing that it is not unthinkable that something like that could happen again.

 

One thing I highly recommend is for one to visit the Holocaust Museum in Israel --

 

http://www.yadvashem.org/

 

It simply is too much in words to express.

[specialmama]

Jesus may have fulfilled the prophecies Christianity made, but he certainly didn't fulfill any of the Jewish ones.

 

Really?

Yes, that is a link. The list is quite astonishing.

[sheryl]

Not in the old testament, which is the only one most jews believe in.

 

Ah, but that is not so. His "Name" was not mentioned in the OT, but there were prophecies about Him!! Do you know the verses I'm speaking of?

[OnTheBrink]

Jesus may have fulfilled the prophecies Christianity made, but he certainly didn't fulfill any of the Jewish ones.

 

I beg to differ, but there were no CHRISTIANS until CHRIST, therefore, there were no CHRISTIAN PROPHECIES before Christ that he didn't fulfill. All prophecy before Christ as Jewish prophecy. Jesus absolutely fulfilled OT prophecies. The only "Christian" prophecy is the book of Revelations, and that prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

[milovany]

Bill, I haven't posted in this thread before now -- I just saw it for the first time tonight when there were already 190+ posts -- but I wanted to say that I both "get" what you're saying (and I think you've said it pretty clearly, that if you've practiced Judaism in the past and you now believe that Jesus is the Messiah, you no longer practice the religion of Judaism, you practice Christianity) and that you have a gracious calm spirit about your posts and it amazes me you've been accused of being rude and of saying people are lying, etc. when truly I just see you as conveying information that you obviously have some knowledge of and experience with. THANK YOU for your gentleness and patience with writing about what you're describing.

 

I thought Garga summed it up pretty well waaaaaay back on page 1 -- even the Bible says that the disciples of Christ (all Jewish men) were called Christians, not Messianic Jews. If, as Christians believe, the Lord God through the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and the sending of the Holy Spirit to infill believers, started one holy, catholic and apostolic church (the "body of Christ" on the earth), then why all the dividing labels? Why the denominations? Ah, but that's a thread for another day. And I'm sure it would be a repeat. :001_smile:

Edited October 2, 2009 by milovaný

[Osmosis Mom]

Wow, this thread is becoming nasty! People are trying to exchange points of view and discuss theology, not proselytizing or slamming others.

 

Bill, thanks for neutrally clarifying Islam.

 

We do believe Islam is from the same Creator and Source as Christianity and Judaism as well as to all those unknown, ancient messengers and prophets who were sent to their peoples witht he Message of believing in their Creator. The main difference is that for us we believe Muhammad to be the Seal of the Prophetic line and only the Quran to be Divine.

 

All that said, then I am not even sure what we are discussing. Jews believe they are Jews by heritance aka ethinicity. They believe they are a Chosen People which is why it is usually tricky to convert to Judaism. I am confused as to why people here don't know that for a fact. Several are the Jews I have met who introduced themselves as "Hi, I am ..... I am an atheist Jew". It used to baffle me why they'd introduce their religious/ethnicity viewpoint, but they probably felt put on the spot due to my head scarf. It has happened a few times so I don't doubt that this is how Jews define themselves.

 

Someone mentioned that you can never escape your ethnicity, but to me that is bogus and as a Muslim it is not true. We are not allowed to hide or claim superiority due to our race. So, no, Arab Muslims are nothing over a non-Arab Muslim...I am only clarifying, not arguing here.

 

The holocaust was a human tragedy, but do know that Hitler did target others than Jews -that's not usually not being spoekn about. Also, genocide like that has taken place recently. I know the Bosnian slaughtering of men and boys and the en masse targeted rapes of girls and women are images I can never live down; and it is beyond me how that happened in front of the world. Same kind of stories in Rwanda and other places.

 

I am only contributing because I wanted to add some more diversity to the topic. Please, everyone and especially posters who are newer to this way of discussing, please know this is a cyberspace messageboard and that nobody is out to get you personally. The neat thing about this board here that we are *supposedly* able and allowed to exchange viewpoints and experiences in a safe, respectful manner. The name-calling and yelling belongs somewhere else.

[st_claire]

I see where you are coming from. But along those lines, you can also state that the Nazis killed homosexuals -- I don't think anyone is arguing ethnicity. Persecution can be in any form. Human rights cases are worldwide for unfair treatment of fellow human beings.

 

??? I don't follow your anology. I wouldn't want someone to say they were gay if they weren't either. Now being gay isn't an ethnicity however, so it is something one can easily hide (though not pleasently). Could you explain your point a bit more? I really don't get it.

[st_claire]

It was horrible on every level. It was horrible that Jews were killed because they were Jews. It was horrible that Jews who followed Judaism were killed and that Jews who followed Christ were killed. It was all horrible, and there was no choice in the matter.

 

One of the other grotesque things about it was the way that prejudices were taught to everyone as well. It is really quite horrifying to hear someone who was taught to hate Jews as a child refer to them in her 70's in ways that she has had plenty of time and experience to learn to grow out of. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

 

I read so many fiction books set in Europe during WWII as a teenager, and they painted the Nazi's as so horrid that it gave me a sense of distance from the whole thing. The single most horrifying part of the Anne Frank exhibit for me was realizing that it is not unthinkable that something like that could happen again.

 

 

Well said. And yes, you are right, it could very very easily happen again. In fact I would wager that it *will* happen again.

[st_claire]

Ah, but that is not so. His "Name" was not mentioned in the OT, but there were prophecies about Him!! Do you know the verses I'm speaking of?

 

Prophecies can easily be attributed to any number of people and/or events. Just watch any nostradamus show and see how every time, no matter what year it's from, the end of the world is only a few years away.

[stripe]

Someone mentioned that you can never escape your ethnicity, but to me that is bogus and as a Muslim it is not true. We are not allowed to hide or claim superiority due to our race. So, no, Arab Muslims are nothing over a non-Arab Muslim...I am only clarifying, not arguing here.

 

Not only that, but there are basically two philosophies of ethnicity. One is that it is from the blood. The other is more flexible. In the old days, at least, a group did basically switch "ethnicities" by acquiring a mother tongue. That is why there are "Arabs" in Sudan, who have very dark skin, and "Arabs" in Lebanon, who are blond and blue eyed. There are "Latinos" all over Latin America (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Mexico, Panama, Argentina, etc) with dark skin, and ones with very pale skin. Commonality? Shared tongue. That sort of openness may not be the attitude we are familiar with in the US, but it definitely exists in other parts of the world.

 

There are have been several genocides in the 20th century, including in Rwanda, Bosnia, Darfur, and Cambodia. No one should be too comfortable about "never again," because it's already happened again since WWII -- several times -- but, once again, to groups that no one really cares about.

 

I think it is possible for someone to co-opt a religious name for their own purposes that then causes confusion (e.g. the Nation of Islam's racial/racist theories are contradictory to the teachings of orthodox Islam), but I also think it's possible for Christians (i.e. those who follow the Christian interpretation of the teachings of Jesus) to follow the way of life of Jesus by doing things like, say, keeping kosher. For that matter, I saw on PBS a segment about a Nigerian group that is fusing aspects of Christianity and Islam under the banner of "Chrislam." And I believe it is possible for ethnic Jews, like everyone else, to change religions, and become, say, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and so forth, or atheists. But because of the fact that Judaism still considers some of these people, and their children, to be Jews, simply by virtue of birth (ignoring their change of religious viewpoint), the simple labels don't always apply.

 

However, I am curious about one thing about followers of the "Jews for Jesus" movement (that seems to be what they call themselves, so I hope it's not offensive for me to refer to them by that name). Are followers mostly composed of people of Jewish background (ethnic and/or religious) who embrace the Christian teachings about Jesus? Does it include people of Christian backgrounds who want to follow Jesus more by embracing his Jewish heritage by adding in observance of, say, high holy days and keeping kosher?

[TXMomof4]

Prophecies can easily be attributed to any number of people and/or events. Just watch any nostradamus show and see how every time, no matter what year it's from, the end of the world is only a few years away.

 

Biblical prophecies = Nostradamus? Really? :glare:

[st_claire]

However, I am curious about one thing about followers of the "Jews for Jesus" movement (that seems to be what they call themselves, so I hope it's not offensive for me to refer to them by that name). Are followers mostly composed of people of Jewish background (ethnic and/or religious) who embrace the Christian teachings about Jesus? Does it include people of Christian backgrounds who want to follow Jesus more by embracing his Jewish heritage by adding in observance of, say, high holy days and keeping kosher?

 

 

It is my understanding that it includes both groups. Usually chapters are started by Christians who want to follow Jewish customs and they bring in Jews by convincing them to believe in Jesus. That is part of the reason so many Jews are offended at the groups. Jews are very strict about not trying to convert others. You will never see Jews going door to door or preaching on the street. But Jews for Jesus do preach on the street. Many Jews see them as Christians trying to eliminate the Jewish people in subversive ways such as through conversion.

 

This is not my opinion by the way. I think anyone should have a right to their opinion and people should be strong enough in their faith to not be swayed by preaching. I'm just explaining why so many Jews dislike the groups.

[st_claire]

Biblical prophecies = Nostradamus? Really? :glare:

 

 

prophecies = prophecies

[OnTheBrink]

Prophecies can easily be attributed to any number of people and/or events. Just watch any nostradamus show and see how every time, no matter what year it's from, the end of the world is only a few years away.

 

Nostradamus is not a biblical prophet.

[KidsHappen]

Apparently not. :tongue_smilie:

[Jenny in Atl]

It is my understanding that it includes both groups. Usually chapters are started by Christians who want to follow Jewish customs and they bring in Jews by convincing them to believe in Jesus. That is part of the reason so many Jews are offended at the groups. Jews are very strict about not trying to convert others. You will never see Jews going door to door or preaching on the street. But Jews for Jesus do preach on the street. Many Jews see them as Christians trying to eliminate the Jewish people in subversive ways such as through conversion.

 

This is not my opinion by the way. I think anyone should have a right to their opinion and people should be strong enough in their faith to not be swayed by preaching. I'm just explaining why so many Jews dislike the groups.

 

Since many evangelicals believe that in the end times the Jews must convert or die in the coming Armageddon, I can see why some take offense.

[st_claire]

Nostradamus is not a biblical prophet.

 

Didn't say he was. Just said that any prophecy be it from the bible, from nostradamus, from a lady who owns 73 cats, can all be applied to a vast number of situations because by their vary nature they are vague and nonspecific. Here, let's play a game, give me one of your biblical prophecies, word for word, and we can see how many people it can apply to.

 

 

Apparently not. :tongue_smilie:

:lol:

[Ibbygirl]

There are "Latinos" all over Latin America (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Mexico, Panama, Argentina, etc) with dark skin, and ones with very pale skin. Commonality? Shared tongue. That sort of openness may not be the attitude we are familiar with in the US, but it definitely exists in other parts of the world.

I would also just add to your list nationality as in place of birth. In my family at any rate, we identify with blood and nationality ties ie. Spanish-Cuban. My blood line is Spanish, but culturally we are more Cuban because that is where my family moved to from Spain before coming to the U.S. Even though blood-wise some of my extended family have no "Cuban blood" they still identify themselves as Spanish-Cuban for blood line (Spain) and culture (music, language, food etc) of their birthplace Cuba. In my case, being born in America, I consider myself Spanish/Cuban/American.

 

However, I am curious about one thing about followers of the "Jews for Jesus" movement (that seems to be what they call themselves, so I hope it's not offensive for me to refer to them by that name). Are followers mostly composed of people of Jewish background (ethnic and/or religious) who embrace the Christian teachings about Jesus? Does it include people of Christian backgrounds who want to follow Jesus more by embracing his Jewish heritage by adding in observance of, say, high holy days and keeping kosher?

 

The only ones I have ever met were ethnic Jews who converted to Christianity.

[WishboneDawn]

I beg to differ, but there were no CHRISTIANS until CHRIST, therefore, there were no CHRISTIAN PROPHECIES before Christ that he didn't fulfill. All prophecy before Christ as Jewish prophecy. Jesus absolutely fulfilled OT prophecies. The only "Christian" prophecy is the book of Revelations, and that prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

 

No, what Jesus fulfilled were Christian interpretations of Jewish prophecies. It's fine to say that from a Christian prespective Jesus fulfills the prophecy but I think it's questionable to say the least to insist that Jewish people are wrong in interpretting a Jewish text and that's the essence of what saying the OT predicts Jesus means.

[WishboneDawn]

 

All that said, then I am not even sure what we are discussing. Jews believe they are Jews by heritance aka ethinicity. They believe they are a Chosen People which is why it is usually tricky to convert to Judaism. I am confused as to why people here don't know that for a fact. Several are the Jews I have met who introduced themselves as "Hi, I am ..... I am an atheist Jew". It used to baffle me why they'd introduce their religious/ethnicity viewpoint, but they probably felt put on the spot due to my head scarf. It has happened a few times so I don't doubt that this is how Jews define themselves.

 

The ethnicity matter is a tricky one but I think Messianic Jews themselves make it clear it's not simply a heritage issue just by virtue of their name. The name is a religious one. It makes a religious statement.

 

I won't argue with what individual Jewish people do but when it comes to naming a religious view then, in my POV, it's a different matter.

[Ibbygirl]

Didn't say he was. Just said that any prophecy be it from the bible, from nostradamus, from a lady who owns 73 cats, can all be applied to a vast number of situations because by their vary nature they are vague and nonspecific. Here, let's play a game, give me one of your biblical prophecies, word for word, and we can see how many people it can apply to.

:lol:

 

Isaiah 44:28-45:7 (New International Version)

 

 

28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd

and will accomplish all that I please;

he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"

and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." '

Isaiah 45

 

1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,

to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of

to subdue nations before him

and to strip kings of their armor,

to open doors before him

so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you

and will level the mountains [a] ;

I will break down gates of bronze

and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,

riches stored in secret places,

so that you may know that I am the LORD,

the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,

of Israel my chosen,

I summon you by name

and bestow on you a title of honor,

though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;

apart from me there is no God.

I will strengthen you,

though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun

to the place of its setting

men may know there is none besides me.

I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster;

I, the LORD, do all these things.

 

 

Prophesied by Isaiah before Cyrus the Great of Persia was even born and at least 150 years before he came to power uniting the kingdoms of the Medes and Persians. Cyrus did fulfill this prophesy of Isaiah. It is written in 2Chronicles 36:22,23 and Ezra 1:1-4,7,8; 3:7; 4:3.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Ibbygirl

[st_claire]

Isaiah 44:28-45:7 (New International Version)

 

 

28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd

and will accomplish all that I please;

he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"

and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." '

Isaiah 45

 

1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,

to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of

to subdue nations before him

and to strip kings of their armor,

to open doors before him

so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you

and will level the mountains [a] ;

I will break down gates of bronze

and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,

riches stored in secret places,

so that you may know that I am the LORD,

the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,

of Israel my chosen,

I summon you by name

and bestow on you a title of honor,

though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;

apart from me there is no God.

I will strengthen you,

though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun

to the place of its setting

men may know there is none besides me.

I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster;

I, the LORD, do all these things.

 

 

Prophesied by Isaiah before Cyrus the Great of Persia was even born and at least 150 years before he came to power uniting the kingdoms of the Medes and Persians. Cyrus did fulfill this prophesy of Isaiah. It is written in 2Chronicles 36:22,23 and Ezra 1:1-4,7,8; 3:7; 4:3.

 

Since Cyrus was the given name of a number of persian kings, I think they just meant a persian king. It says nothing about that specific Cyrus.

 

How about David Ben-Gurion, Isarel's first prime minister? He oversaw many projects of building, cutting iron, etc... He certainly has a title of honor. I'd say the prophecy could easily apply to him.

 

Wanna play again?

[Ibbygirl]

Since Cyrus was the given name of a number of persian kings, I think they just meant a persian king. It says nothing about that specific Cyrus.

 

 

I think that the fact that Cyrus the kind of the Medes and Persians did indeed rebuild the temple during the times of Jeremiah speaks pretty clearly as to which Cyrus was being named.

 

I would love to stay here all day long and talk about prophecy with you, it truly is fascinating, but I have responsibilities that I have to get to like, oh I don't know.. homeschooling. ;) :D hehe

 

Have a nice day. :)

 

Jennifer

[st_claire]

I think that the fact that Cyrus the kind of the Medes and Persians did indeed rebuild the temple during the times of Jeremiah speaks pretty clearly as to which Cyrus was being named.

 

I would love to stay here all day long and talk about prophecy with you, it truly is fascinating, but I have responsibilities that I have to get to like, oh I don't know.. homeschooling. ;) :D hehe

 

Have a nice day. :)

 

Jennifer

 

But all your are saying here is "Oh, the Cyrus they mean is the one who did some of the stuff." Again, that's hindsight. There was no way before he did it to say "Oh, it will be such and such king who will do it."

 

lol ok, have a good school day.

[sleepymommy]

See...this is why I like Hinduism! I can be a Hindu and believe that Jesus was the son of god and believe that Mohammud was a prophet of god and believe that the trinity is actually Shiva-Bhrama-Vishnu! Ahh the joy of inclusivity - makes like much easier - no need to choose between anything! (Just trying to keep things light folks!)

 

:iagree::001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:

[stripe]

How does converting to Hinduism work, anyway? Would one, say, be able to decide one is a Brahmin or would one be inspired to try life as, say, a dalit? Or do converts decide they are "beyond"/"above" that fray?

 

Just curious.

[Spy Car]

Bill, thanks for neutrally clarifying Islam.

 

Thank you Nadia.

 

To be honest I dreaded mentioning Islam in the first place because I understand how many misconceptions surround the faith, but once Islam was raised, I felt duty-bound to clarify things to the best of my ability.

 

Someone mentioned that you can never escape your ethnicity, but to me that is bogus and as a Muslim it is not true. We are not allowed to hide or claim superiority due to our race. So, no, Arab Muslims are nothing over a non-Arab Muslim...I am only clarifying, not arguing here.

 

Nadia, I say this respectfully, it appears you are inferring Jews claim "superiority" as a race, as a "Chosen People". This is a very distorted view.

 

Jews do believe they have a special role. That, according to the tradition, after all other nations passed on the obligation, they (the last group asked) took on the burden of living under the 613 Mitzvot or Commandments.

 

If you know any religiously observant Jews who follow the commandments diligently you will realize what a burden they assume. It is not an "easy" life, as they are quick to tell you (assuming some intimacy). This is not to say the observant don't find fulfillment in their faith and obligations, but they assume burdens they would not wish on another.

 

And that is why they discourage converts, not some idea of racial exclusion or racial superiority. A non-Jew can fulfill their duty to God (according to Judaism) by keeping the 7 Noahide laws.

 

But anyone who is determined to convert to Judaism may. It is not as simple as saying Shahada and it's done. That's true. It is a process that only becomes more demanding when completed. But Jews have taken converts from the time of Ruth, and the convert is as much a Jew as anyone else.

 

The impression that Jews see themselves as a "master-race" is wrong.

 

And one doesn't have to look hard to see that Jews (while seeing themselves as "one people") come in lots of colors. From "white" Ashkenazim, to "black" Flashas (Ethiopians) to middle-eastern Sephardim and Yemenites. Jews are diverse, and not "racist." No more (or less) than any other group.

 

And sometime Jews leave the faith of their ancestors and take on a new one, including Islam. Look at Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss). Born Jewish and from a long line of rabbis. He became one of the great scholars of Islam. His faith became Islam, but in his ethnic identity remained a Jew.

 

There is nothing insidious about this "ethnic" (for lack of a better word) identity. One can be an "Arab" and a Christian (I know many). One can be an Arab and a Muslim. Or a Persian Muslim, or a Pakistani Muslim, or an Indonesian Muslim...on infinitum.

 

While you are fully correct, there is to be no differentiation or inequality based on ethnicity in Islam, people retain their ethnic and national identities. That's a pretty natural part of the human condition.

 

Jews are no different. A Russian Jew identifies to some degree as part of their community in a way that's different from say a Jew from Morocco. Normal.

 

And even in Islam, where non-discrimination is an "ideal" and important part of the faith and where acting against this is haram, we could admit that people are not always perfect.

 

No one is perfect. We just have to do our best to stay the straight path.

 

The holocaust was a human tragedy, but do know that Hitler did target others than Jews -that's not usually not being spoekn about.

 

This is really dangerous ground.

 

It's true the Nazis targeted communists, the "mentally defective", the disabled, Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics and other Christians, homosexuals, and many (many) others. Had Hitler (may his name be erased) prevailed no doubt Muslims would have perished in great numbers.

 

Every one of those deaths was a tragedy. It doesn't mitigate Nazi crimes one iota that they killed others in addition to Jews.

 

We have a holocaust museum here in Los Angeles. It is run by a Jewish organization. But if you go in you see the evidence of Nazi crimes against all his victims, not just Jews.

 

Things can sound "wrong" in internet discussions, and be misconstrued. I don't want to make that error. But, I'd ask you to examine your thoughts.

 

Also, genocide like that has taken place recently. I know the Bosnian slaughtering of men and boys and the en masse targeted rapes of girls and women are images I can never live down; and it is beyond me how that happened in front of the world. Same kind of stories in Rwanda and other places.

 

Stalin killed millions. Mao killed millions. A third of the population of Cambodia (at least) were exterminated in death camps. There were rapes and murders of Bosnians, a genocide in Darfur, another in Rwanda. Horrible crimes all. And the list (to my regret) isn't exhaustive.

 

But, forgive me, but it seems as if you are using these horrible crimes against humanity as a propaganda point. And it is distasteful. Every time a person dies as a victim of a hateful ideology it is a tragedy. Each death compounds the tragedy. The enormity of the Jewish deaths in the Shoah is not lessened because Muslims were massacred at Srebrenica, these deaths are just more horror and more human tragedy.

 

The lesson to be drawn is to oppose all such hateful movements before they seize power, and before the hateful seeds take root in peoples minds. We need to beware of poisonous ideas about others entering our minds. For there are those determined to sow hatred. Including "holocaust deniers".

 

I wish you peace,

 

Bill

Edited October 2, 2009 by Spy Car

[sleepymommy]

How does converting to Hinduism work, anyway? Would one, say, be able to decide one is a Brahmin or would one be inspired to try life as, say, a dalit? Or do converts decide they are "beyond"/"above" that fray?

 

Just curious.

 

 

The origins of the caste system and the caste system that is referred as it is now (albeit illegal) are very different. I'm no expert on this topic as a matter of converting.

 

As far as my knowledge on the subject, Hinduism or Santaana Dharma is flexible enough, if one really wants a formal conversion ceremony of sorts I'm sure there are temples/priests that would do so for them. However, there is no need for a formal conversion of sorts. It is a way of life and if you believe in its basic tenets, than it can be as easy as doing nothing else fancy.

[stripe]

(I'm not Nadia, and this isn't meant to be an answer on her behalf, just my musings.)

 

The lesson to be drawn is to oppose all such hateful movements before they seize power, and before the hateful seeds take root in peoples minds. We need to beware of poisonous ideas about others entering our minds. For there are those determined to sow hatred. Including "holocaust deniers".

Surely it is dangerous to fixate on the Holocaust to the exclusion of acknowledging other horrific genocides and evil acts. I find it troubling to see that after someone has visited a Holocaust museum, they then smugly think that this is something in the past, because I see museums about the murder by Hitler of Jews (and others) during WWII as acknowledging a very dark chapter of a long-running and unfortunate thread in the story of humanity.

 

It does a great disservice to humanity and to the memory of those who were killed so vilely in the Nazi death camps, to continue to deny the capacity for evil and the need to stop it, even to this day. They are not being perpetrated against Jews in Europe; other groups, who are not especially beloved to the international community, are the targets. This is the commonality, not the particular target. To look ONLY at the past and see the problem as solved, is a huge mistake.

[unsinkable]

Slowly raising my hand and asking timidly:

 

I am I the only one who is more confused now than I was before I started reading this thread?

 

I can't even articulate a question, I'm so confused. :confused:

[Spy Car]

Surely it is dangerous to fixate on the Holocaust to the exclusion of acknowledging other horrific genocides and evil acts.

 

Sure. But who does that?

 

The lesson of the holocaust is to oppose evil where ever its found, and to rally to those who are facing oppression and worse.

 

I find it troubling to see that after someone has visited a Holocaust museum, they then smugly think that this is something in the past, because I see museums about the murder by Hitler of Jews (and others) during WWII as acknowledging a very dark chapter of a long-running and unfortunate thread in the story of humanity.

 

I don't know where your coming from with this, but I've never known a person to visit a holocaust museum and emerge feeling "smug."

 

It does a great disservice to humanity and to the memory of those who were killed so vilely in the Nazi death camps, to continue to deny the capacity for evil and the need to stop it, even to this day.

 

I don't know what you mean by "continue to deny"?

 

Other than being perplexed at what point you may be trying to make, I agree that on-going evils need to be confronted and stopped.

 

They are not being perpetrated against Jews in Europe; other groups, who are not especially beloved to the international community, are the targets. This is the commonality, not the particular target. To look ONLY at the past and see the problem as solved, is a huge mistake.

 

I feel like you are saying something, but not saying something. It disturbs me.

 

Bill

Edited October 2, 2009 by Spy Car

[stripe]

I don't know where your coming from with this, but I've never known a person to visit a holocaust museum and emerge feeling "smug."

Well, I have known a lot of people who treat it as a completely unique and isolated historical event that bears no resemblance to anything else whatsoever. I have perceived smugness in discussions with others, that we (humanity) are past that. Personally, I fainted in 8th grade in front of a human skin lamp, so I don't relate to the smugness factor. I am not sure what my perceived origins or destination are, but...

 

I feel like you are saying something, but not saying something. It disturbs me.

Then I'll stop saying anything. It disturbs me that I am being interpreted as having some strange ulterior motive when I ... don't and am utterly mystified by the implication.

 

I don't really understand what this has to do with Jews for Jesus, though. But I'll leave this thread alone for others to hash out.

[Spy Car]

Then I'll stop saying anything. It disturbs me that I am being interpreted as having some strange ulterior motive when I ... don't and am utterly mystified by the implication.

 

If I misunderstood anything you had to say, my apologies. I just failed to get (or understand) some of the points you seemed to be making.

 

Bill

[Ibbygirl]

But all your are saying here is "Oh, the Cyrus they mean is the one who did some of the stuff." Again, that's hindsight. There was no way before he did it to say "Oh, it will be such and such king who will do it."

 

I'm not sure I'm following you here. To me that looks exactly like what Isaiah did. :confused: He called him by name. You can say, "Well there are a lot of people named Cyrus in Persia." but how many of them are going around re-building Jewish temples?? At what point do you see Isaiah calling him by name 150 years ahead of time and then see the man Cyrus come on the scene and do what Isaiah said he would do and and not say "This is the guy."?? :confused: How many Cyruses do you know of that fulfilled this prophecy?

 

lol ok, have a good school day.

 

Thank you. :) I realize it's too late in the day to say, "you too" hehe So I'll just wish you a good weekend. :)

 

We need to beware of poisonous ideas about others entering our minds. For there are those determined to sow hatred.

 

:iagree: :iagree: Beautifully expressed, Bill. :)

Edited October 3, 2009 by Ibbygirl

[Osmosis Mom]

But, forgive me, but it seems as if you are using these horrible crimes against humanity as a propaganda point. And it is distasteful. Every time a person dies as a victim of a hateful ideology it is a tragedy. Each death compounds the tragedy. The enormity of the Jewish deaths in the Shoah is not lessened because Muslims were massacred at Srebrenica, these deaths are just more horror and more human tragedy.

 

The lesson to be drawn is to oppose all such hateful movements before they seize power, and before the hateful seeds take root in peoples minds. We need to beware of poisonous ideas about others entering our minds. For there are those determined to sow hatred. Including "holocaust deniers".

 

 

Bill

 

We are in agreement here. This is what I meant, but apparently did not sound clear about. Every agression against one targeted human is as if it were against all humanity. There is no doubt about it. It just sounded from some posts that one tragedy was worse than another. To me, targeting anyone is obviously wrong and that it can happen in our times -with the last century's history-is even worse.

 

I can see where you might mis-construe what I said.

 

There are a few other things I do not agree with, but this is not a point I wanted to be silent about.