Can a person be a Christian if they don't believe the Bible?

[Ginevra]

Just curious why you would even entertain the idea of being a christian without the bible as your base. Why the need for Christ at all? If it is a curiousity of whether or not he ever existed, and in what capacity then okay but to believe in the traditional sense that he is your savior....I don't understand and not take the whole package? Not trying to be snarky or rude. Just puzzled. Ruby

 

You're viewing my questions from the wrong end. I'm not shopping for religions and trying to decide if Christianity is feasible without the Bible. ;) I actually have no difficulties in believing the doctrine surrounding Jesus as THE Christ. I have been a Christian for a long time, but I fell pretty hard off the wagon a few years ago and I've been working at trying to salvage my beliefs...or sometimes, trying to figure out if there is anything worth salvaging.

 

And is Ruby really your given name? I love that name. It's my working name for my protagonist in a novel I'm working on.

[Veritaserum]

I don't read anything in the Bible that says I have to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis in order to be a Christian. :glare:

 

In my mind and heart I am a follower of Christ and a Christian, whether or not anybody else agrees. ;)

 

Seriously, these building up of requirements based on your own personal interpretation of scripture and the subsequent finger-pointing that results don't exactly strike me as Christ-like, kwim? :confused:

 

For me, Christian means someone who does all s/he can to follow Christ and accepts him as his/her Lord and Savior. Period. :)

 

I suppose both sides of the argument would agree with Inigo. :tongue_smilie:

 

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[justamouse]

 

HUH? She said old earth creation and this post says old earth evolution:confused:

 

He believes that God created the word with a big bang, and that from there we evolved. His book is about how evolution and Christianity fit together. So, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

[JennC]

I don't believe God needs me to believe Jonah survived inside a whale to know "obey God" is the lesson. :D

 

I just wanted to say, Joanne, that this is the most succinctly and clearly that I have "heard" you put your point of view. Sometimes I wonder 'what did she mean by that' but this is very clear, and although I am very literal in my understanding, I now see your point.:001_smile:

[justamouse]

 

I suppose both sides of the argument would agree with Inigo. :tongue_smilie:

 

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

You are MARVELOUS.

[JennC]

He believes that God created the word with a big bang, and that from there we evolved. His book is about how evolution and Christianity fit together. So, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

 

I would have to disagree. As a matter of fact my 3rd grader has learned/ can understand that evidence in our current earth/creation in many ways proves the Bible, specifically the events in Genesis.

I think that a man has his right to a belief system that goes against the Bible. However, he should not say "see, here, I can show you how the Bible is wrong" and call it compatible with Christianity.

[Ginevra]

OP: I agree with you that once you start saying, "This part isn't true, but this part is" you can run into trouble. How do you know which part is the true part and which isn't? To solve that, it would be best to view the bible as the literal truth, so you don't try to start picking which is truth and which isn't.

 

But, I'm also aware that at the same time, your own personal opinion might not match up with what the bible says.

 

So, as that quoted post says, believe as much as you can, put on hold the things you personally can't believe yet, and wait for God to show you.

 

It's not so much personal opinion as it is what I think is realistic, logical, scientific. Oddly enough, I started to most disbelieve young-earth creationism while I was researching it as my belief, the one I intended to teach to my kids. When I saw some of the "explanations" that rang with nonsense, I started to wonder. Then, as I sought out more resources that were in favor of young-earth creationism, I found they did not agree with one another. The book I was reading was pretty much called laughable and not in keeping with more current theories - it was called this by other YECs!

 

I find the "wait and see" thing very troubling because, so far in my life, those disbeliefs come back to bite - hard - when life hands out a bad deal. How do you just keep marchin' on when faced with evidence that your beliefs are not sensible?

[chaik76]

I would have to disagree. As a matter of fact my 3rd grader has learned/ can understand that evidence in our current earth/creation in many ways proves the Bible, specifically the events in Genesis.

I think that a man has his right to a belief system that goes against the Bible. However, he should not say "see, here, I can show you how the Bible is wrong" and call it compatible with Christianity.

That does not, however, mean that your viewpoint of what the Bible say is correct (or mine) ...and it's not about showing the Bible is "wrong". I don't believe the Bible is "wrong"...I believe that in ancient times people did not record history in the same way we do today, and that archetypal stories were used as teaching, which is in line with other ancient texts. That doesn't mean that I am not a Christian, or that I don't believe in what the Bible stands for and teaches.

[Ginevra]

He believes that God created the word with a big bang, and that from there we evolved. His book is about how evolution and Christianity fit together. So, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

 

See, I think that is trying to have your cake and eat it, too. I'm not a big fan of macro-evolution, although I do believe in an old earth/old universe.

[ma23peas]

but I fell pretty hard off the wagon a few years ago and I've been working at trying to salvage my beliefs...or sometimes, trying to figure out if there is anything worth salvaging.

 

 

Quill...is it that important that you debate the details of the Bible? If you are trying to salvage your beliefs...you need to start at the basics...

Let me give you an analogy...let's use your word salvage (and since you're a writer, visual imagery may help you)..let's say that you were lost at sea...you may have jumped ship but God always had a life float around you with a tether to your body...so something in the waters convinced you to stop running away from God and take the lifeline and make your way back to the boat. So are you now going to question what God's ship is made of? In the end, does it matter where the engine room is located or what types of bolts He used to hold it together? Is it not more important that you BELIEVE and TRUST that He made this ship to save you.

 

If we spend our time trying to understand our faith, are we then losing our ability/energies to live out our life in faith, let God lead us...it is wonderful to have that curiosity...but is it not also wonderful to step out believing with just that bit of faith we need? My life would not be what it is today had we not stepped out on faith and trusted...I would probably be in a career without end...children would be in private schools and much distanced from my husband and I...I wouldn't be asking HOW I can live my life for Him, but rather, how should I live for myself. If at some time, God wishes to enlighten me on predestination/reformation/specific details, then I will be there to listen, but I try to make my actions be specific and focused on honoring Him. If we're focused on figuring out what He's about, we miss serving Him...it's a simple step of faith...you're already taking it!

 

Tara

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I would have to disagree. As a matter of fact my 3rd grader has learned/ can understand that evidence in our current earth/creation in many ways proves the Bible, specifically the events in Genesis.

I think that a man has his right to a belief system that goes against the Bible. However, he should not say "see, here, I can show you how the Bible is wrong" and call it compatible with Christianity.

 

Yes but that is your take and particular beliefs on Christianity. There are millions of Christians who feel otherwise.

[Joanne]

I just wanted to say, Joanne, that this is the most succinctly and clearly that I have "heard" you put your point of view. Sometimes I wonder 'what did she mean by that' but this is very clear, and although I am very literal in my understanding, I now see your point.:001_smile:

 

Thank you for saying so. One reason you've probably been less than clear on my posts is that I never offer specifics on this topic. In other words, I never delineate which stories I believe as literal, which ones I don't. It's not that I don't have ideas or opinions but arguing over those specifics is less than helpful. :001_smile:

[Ginevra]

Tara, that was a really beautiful post. Here's the difficulty for me:

 

So are you now going to question what God's ship is made of? In the end, does it matter where the engine room is located or what types of bolts He used to hold it together? Is it not more important that you BELIEVE and TRUST that He made this ship to save you.

 

I do want to know what the bolts are made of because it looks like the ship won't hold. I don't know how to believe there really is ship there when it didn't hold me up before. Maybe I'm hallucinating that there is a ship because I've been half-drowned for too long.

[Guest janainaz]

I was not going to post a response to this because it's something that is such a perplexing thought to me right now - such a frustration, but I may as well.

 

I think that it's interesting how there are so many so-called Christians and yet there are different church denominations on every street corner. Yet, they all believe the Bible and yet interpret it differently. I don't think Jesus came to start a new religion, He came to show us the way. So, if the Bible is the living word of God, how then could it be interpreted in so many ways and what makes THIS generation believe that we are so different from the generation milleniums ago? All of these denominations believe they are interpreting it correctly!

 

I've been a Christian for a little over ten years and I'm not certain where I'm at right now with my belief in all of the Bible being literal, or from God. I'm not saying it's not, I'm just unsure.

 

My dh went to Bible college years ago and he raises great questions all the time - ones I certainly can't answer. I don't know the Bible nearly as well as he does, but recently he raised questions on God calling for mass genocide - the wiping out of an entire population - including children. What if someone, today, claimed to be a prophet of God and claimed that God had commanded the entire Muslim population to be wiped out? Recently, we've been having these discussions and it leaves me frustrated. My dh was saying that, just like today, we often believe we hear certain things from God and even hear people say, "God told me this, yada yada" - so what if some of what is in the Bible came from regular human beings - just like you and me? I have thought God did x, y, or z in my life and ended up being wrong. Then again, there are certain things I know for certain I have seen God's hand in. But, I often wonder when someone comes to me and says, "God told me to_______".

 

I know God is sovereign and I've responded with all the typical reasoning that a Christian would. But, when you really start digging, when you really take certain scriptures apart, translate them - there are so many questions to be asked. We were in a small group and my husband was bringing some of those questions up and it's really not ok to ask or to question the Bible in the Christian realm because if you do, you are cast out. I know that God knows my own heart and if He made the Bible so that I could understand it (it's a letter to me, right) then, it must be ok to question it - at least based on a lack of knowlege or understanding. I will continue to question certain things about it and I will keep my heart open to truth. Seeking truth can't be a bad thing. But, I do believe the response, "Because the Bible says so" is given because of fear. It seems that Christians cling to the Bible because they can't trust the relationship they claim to have.

 

It also seems to truly understand much of the Bible, you really DO need to understand what was going on culturally. I can't understand why God would allow it all to be so complicated that you need a degree in Theology or a few years at seminary to truly get what was going on (and MANY of the guys my dh went to Bible college with have the same questions that he does). They all thought they had it figured out, yet they are left scratching their heads.

 

Lately, I just read the words of Jesus and rely more on the fact that I have the spirit of God through Christ living in me. I do believe too many Christians place way too much emphasis on the Bible and fail to trust the truth within them. Maybe this is because they are taught that their heart is wicked and deceitful beyond repair. Yet, that same heart has Christ living in it? So, which is it? The truth is written on our hearts and so why is the church teaching Christians that they can't trust their own heart? Would I not know right from wrong without the book? Would God fail to communicate to me without the Bible? Aren't we talking about the Living God here? I know that some say you have to take it all to believe in any of it. I'm not so certain that's true. The book of Revelation talks about a curse on anyone who adds to "this book" - which would be referring to the book of Revelation itself (it was not like they found the Bible assembled). The Catholic church left out many books, it was assembled by humans. The Catholics had an agenda, too.

 

It is a scary thought to wonder and question what you thought you could believe and trust in. Especially these days. But, I have to trust in God, not a book. You have to ask yourself what called you? A book? Or, did God call you to Himself and how do you know you are in relationship with God? God speaks in many ways, not just through words on a page. Creation itself is a testimony of God's existence. I do often wonder if it is possible for some people to truly be son's of God based on knowing love. If someone knows forgiveness, if someone understands what makes love REAL - is it possible that God could consider him a son of God? I certainly don't know, but I would hope so.

[Lovedtodeath]

I do want to know what the bolts are made of because it looks like the ship won't hold. I don't know how to believe there really is ship there when it didn't hold me up before. Maybe I'm hallucinating that there is a ship because I've been half-drowned for too long.

 

You explained this beautifully! I can't tell you how many times I have had to have a similar conversation.

[ma23peas]

The plans of the heart belong to man,

but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,

but the Lord weighs the spirit.

Commit your work to the Lord,

and your plans will be established.

—Proverbs 16:1-3

 

31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?â€

 

Your failing is in trusting, not in belief. Peter KNEW Jesus, he was with Him through many miracles...but at that last second when the storms raged and the winds picked up and he started to sink..he DOUBTED! I believe that God knows how hard it is even for Peter to trust...He knows how hard it is even for you to trust...but throughout my 41 years...I have never been failed by Him....have things not worked out like I'd like? YES! (We've had 2 house payments for 27 months!! My daughter has suffered unimaginable pain from mistakes doctors made and continue to make) But, we WILL have times of Job...I have to come to a point where I praise Him and even thank Him for those trials...ultimately, He wants you to trust and believe in Him...

 

One of the ways that it really made sense to me was reading over and over (I believe we read it 3x through!) Catherine Vos' "A Child's Story Bible"...her narrative chronological approach (which I thought was just going to be a check on my "bible" curricula when my kids were K-4) helped me SEE how God loves and is ALWAYS with us....I became so angry at the Hebrews for abandoning their faith and trust when times became tough...I had a greater understanding for how God must have felt, having carried them through the desert for so long...and His mercy....oh HIS MERCY!! Sometimes the simplest approach to a story, helps us see things more clearly....if these concerns are weighing on you..ask God to help reveal them to you or ask God to help you trust in Him...but your answers are ultimately going to come through Him, not any of us...we can try and make you 'feel' better and help you see it from a different perspective but this is a conversation you need to rely on Him to resolve. Give Him that chance.

 

My prayers will be for a day of answers for you!!

Tara

[Lovedtodeath]

All of these denominations believe they are interpreting it correctly!

2 Corinthians 11:14; Matthew 13:25-

 

Recently, we've been having these discussions and it leaves me frustrated. My dh was saying that, just like today, we often believe we hear certain things from God and even hear people say, "God told me this, yada yada" - so what if some of what is in the Bible came from regular human beings - just like you and me? I have thought God did x, y, or z in my life and ended up being wrong. Then again, there are certain things I know for certain I have seen God's hand in. But, I often wonder when someone comes to me and says, "God told me to_______".

1 Corinthians 13:8

 

It also seems to truly understand much of the Bible, you really DO need to understand what was going on culturally. I can't understand why God would allow it all to be so complicated that you need a degree in Theology or a few years at seminary to truly get what was going on (and MANY of the guys my dh went to Bible college with have the same questions that he does). They all thought they had it figured out, yet they are left scratching their heads.

Many people are very educated in this area without attending college. Matthew 24:45; 1 Corinthians 1:27; Acts 4:13

 

Lately, I just read the words of Jesus and rely more on the fact that I have the spirit of God through Christ living in me. I do believe too many Christians place way too much emphasis on the Bible and fail to trust the truth within them. Maybe this is because they are taught that their heart is wicked and deceitful beyond repair. Yet, that same heart has Christ living in it? So, which is it? The truth is written on our hearts and so why is the church teaching Christians that they can't trust their own heart? Would I not know right from wrong without the book? Would God fail to communicate to me without the Bible? Aren't we talking about the Living God here?

Is there a scripture that says Christ lives in your heart? Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 7:23; Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:2; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:20,21 An article on this topic: Search for God With Your Heart and Mind

[Tree House Academy]

I haven't read all 7 pages of this post and I am not sure how others feel. For me, this is a very personal choice. I do consider myself a Christian. I believe that Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for our Sins. I do believe parts of the Bible. However, I also believe that the Bible was written by men - not God. It was also translated by men, not God. And we all know that only God himself (and Jesus as his son) is perfect.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I haven't read all 7 pages of this post and I am not sure how others feel. For me, this is a very personal choice. I do consider myself a Christian. I believe that Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for our Sins. I do believe parts of the Bible. However, I also believe that the Bible was written by men - not God. It was also translated by men, not God. And we all know that only God himself (and Jesus as his son) is perfect.

As his message to us, wouldn't God protect the Bible?

[Guest janainaz]

2 Corinthians 11:14; Matthew 13:25-

 

1 Corinthians 13:8

 

Many people are very educated in this area without attending college. Matthew 24:45; 1 Corinthians 1:27; Acts 4:13

 

Is there a scripture that says Christ lives in your heart? Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 7:23; Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:2; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:20,21 An article on this topic: Search for God With Your Heart and Mind

 

When I say Christ lives in my heart, I'm not meaning it literally. I believe in the Holy Spirit.

 

It is true the MANY are well educated in the Bible without attending college. However, there were followers of Christ at one point in history WITHOUT a Bible. What did they do? How did they know what to do? My question is, can God communicate with a believer, a child of God, without the Bible? Can someone be a follower of Christ, even if they never open the Bible.

[Guest janainaz]

2 Corinthians 11:14; Matthew 13:25-

 

1 Corinthians 13:8

 

Many people are very educated in this area without attending college. Matthew 24:45; 1 Corinthians 1:27; Acts 4:13

 

Is there a scripture that says Christ lives in your heart? Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 7:23; Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:2; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:20,21 An article on this topic: Search for God With Your Heart and Mind

 

I'm looking up some of your referenced scriptures and just wondering what points you are trying to make. If you reference something, could you also include what you are trying to communicate? It leaves me believing you are misunderstanding my words.

[Greta]

What would you say of someone who wants to/purposes to be a Christian, but just doesn't believe a lot of the Bible?

 

I could only say, since I am struggling with some of the same problems and have little wisdom of my own to offer, that I would humbly encourage you to listen to Father Stephen. His simple metaphor of a "One-Storey Universe" that he uses to talk about how we approach/view our faith, has really changed my thinking, and made more of a difference in my faith in a couple of short weeks, than many previous years of searching, seeking, rationalizing, and dissecting.

 

If you use iTunes, it's very simple to just search the iTunes store for "Glory to God" and then you can download, for free, any/all of his podcasts.

 

If you don't use iTunes, you can find them here: http://feeds.ancientfaith.com/GloryToGod

 

Either way, be sure to scroll all the way down to the bottom to listen to the oldest ones first -- that's where he sets up and explains the one-storey model of the universe.

 

I hope you find as much wisdom and comfort in them as I have.

 

Warmest Regards,

Greta

[Greta]

Is there a scripture that says Christ lives in your heart?

 

Perhaps not what you were asking, but this came to my mind:

 

Luke 17:20-21 (King James Version)

 

 

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

When I say Christ lives in my heart, I'm not meaning it literally. I believe in the Holy Spirit.

So what you are saying is that the Holy Spirit can/will direct you without the use of the scriptures?

[Lovedtodeath]

Perhaps not what you were asking, but this came to my mind:

 

Luke 17:20-21 (King James Version)

 

 

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

That is what I was asking, or at least what I was trying to think of. Thanks. (though this isn't translated like that in all versions) Are there any others like that?

[Lovedtodeath]

When I say Christ lives in my heart, I'm not meaning it literally. I believe in the Holy Spirit.

 

It is true the MANY are well educated in the Bible without attending college. However, there were followers of Christ at one point in history WITHOUT a Bible. What did they do? How did they know what to do? My question is, can God communicate with a believer, a child of God, without the Bible? Can someone be a follower of Christ, even if they never open the Bible.

That reminds me of something I was just reading. A man was expelling demons in the name of Christ, and the apostles tried to stop him, because he was not with them. Jesus said not to stop him and that by doing so they could stumble him, which was a serious offense.

[Guest janainaz]

So what you are saying is that the Holy Spirit can/will direct you without the use of the scriptures?

 

Most certainly, yes.

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm looking up some of your referenced scriptures and just wondering what points you are trying to make. If you reference something, could you also include what you are trying to communicate? It leaves me believing you are misunderstanding my words.

Sorry. I usually try not to interject my thoughts and let the scriptures stand. One of my favorite Bible study books does that. It puts scriptures together in categories. It is called "Make sure of all things"

 

Matthew 13:25-(end of parable) 2 Corinthians 11:14;

These scriptures are to demonstrate that different denominations are like wheat and weeds that are difficult to distinguish, but we need to be careful because the weeds will be thrown away. Satan is actually causing the divisions in order to confuse people.

 

1 Corinthians 13:8 God doesn't miraculously communicate with men anymore. In fact, he did not miraculously communicate with the older men in the book of Acts when they had to decide on the matter of circumcision.

 

Matthew 24:45; 1 Corinthians 1:27; Acts 4:13 The first scripture shows that God has a plan in place to provide his people with the information we need to understand the scriptures, including the cultural background. The last two show that He will help us in our understanding.

 

Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 7:23; Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:2; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:20,21 Various scriptures about the heart being treacherous, not to trust it, followed by scriptures espousing the benefit of God's Word.

[Dirtroad]

Apostle's Creed sums it all up very well, imho.....

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting"

 

OR perhaps the Nicene Creed is useful...

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

 

**catholic is with a little "c" b/c not the denomination Catholic... but general Christian church in today's English....

 

Some groups do not creeds b/c they view them as scripture replacements. I do not. I think they are simple summaries written by very knowledgable & thoughtful people which can be very helpful in discussions or conversations like this. They just bring it into a "nutshell" if you will.

 

I am a young earth creationish. However, my view of the flood will not be what "gets me into heaven"..... It will be my view and understanding of CHRIST. (better said in the above than by me)

Edited August 23, 2009 by Dirtroad

[milovany]

:bigear:Tell me more!

 

 

Carmen, I read this recently that addressed this: http://www.antiochian.org/assets/asset_manager/da42e6049df1d08bff1865c1ac19e759.pdf ... really good article.

[milovany]

I think that it's interesting how there are so many so-called Christians and yet there are different church denominations on every street corner. Yet, they all believe the Bible and yet interpret it differently. I don't think Jesus came to start a new religion, He came to show us the way. So, if the Bible is the living word of God, how then could it be interpreted in so many ways and what makes THIS generation believe that we are so different from the generation milleniums ago? All of these denominations believe they are interpreting it correctly!

 

...I know God is sovereign and I've responded with all the typical reasoning that a Christian would. But, when you really start digging, when you really take certain scriptures apart, translate them - there are so many questions to be asked. We were in a small group and my husband was bringing some of those questions up and it's really not ok to ask or to question the Bible in the Christian realm because if you do, you are cast out. I know that God knows my own heart and if He made the Bible so that I could understand it (it's a letter to me, right) then, it must be ok to question it - at least based on a lack of knowlege or understanding. I will continue to question certain things about it and I will keep my heart open to truth. Seeking truth can't be a bad thing. But, I do believe the response, "Because the Bible says so" is given because of fear. It seems that Christians cling to the Bible because they can't trust the relationship they claim to have.

 

...Maybe this is because they are taught that their heart is wicked and deceitful beyond repair. Yet, that same heart has Christ living in it? So, which is it?

 

...It is a scary thought to wonder and question what you thought you could believe and trust in. Especially these days. But, I have to trust in God, not a book. You have to ask yourself what called you? A book? Or, did God call you to Himself and how do you know you are in relationship with God? God speaks in many ways, not just through words on a page.

 

Jana, I totally get what you're saying here. I've been through (am going through) this struggle. :grouphug:

 

For many years (23+ as a Christian) I've just not gotten "denominations;" seeing God's body split into so many factions. There is such a wide variety of beliefs, some diametrically opposed, you know?? They *cannot* both be right. They just cannot, if truth is truth. Some say denominations show the variety of "God's personality" (or whatever they call it) but I don't buy it. I've realized that "sola scriptura" is not something I can believe in anymore because of the divisions in the church that it has caused. And (now looking at the bigger picture) because "sola scriptura" was not part of the church for most of its existence (it seems to have come around near the time of the reformation).

 

I also believe God had a greater plan for Church -- a plan for a greater one-ness in the church. You said, " It seems that Christians cling to the Bible because they can't trust the relationship they claim to have" and " But, I have to trust in God, not a book." This is where I think the Church should have a greater role than we're used to. I would insert "Church" for "relationship" above. The Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth" in the Bible; the Church as God designed it should be interpreting this Bible -- not having the Bible "interpreting" the Church. If we can trust that God used men in the Church to put the Bible together, can't we trust the Church that he worked through?

 

Anyway, just wanted to share that I completely hear your heart here. For us, we've decided to become part of the Orthodox church, believing this is the ancient church with the New Testament roots we were looking for (well, OT roots!!!). It's been such a breath of fresh air for us --even though it's very, very different than the protestant churches we've been a part of. Very. different. The book we read that lead us to consider this change is called Becoming Orthodox by Peter Gillquist. Gillquist and 7-8 other Campus Crusade leaders (they were national leaders) -- as well as 2000 others who were involved in their fellowships at the time -- converted to Orthodoxy after studying the Bible and church history in the 1970s and 1980s.

Edited August 23, 2009 by milovaný

[WishboneDawn]

What would you say of someone who wants to/purposes to be a Christian, but just doesn't believe a lot of the Bible?

 

Another thought: Where is the Christian core doctrine that says one must believe all or a certain percentage of the Bible? Neither the Nicean or Apostle's Creed say anything about that and those are two of the most fundamental statements about what it is to be Christian.

 

Some denominations may take a certain stand on scripture interpretation but that's a different matter altogether.

[WishboneDawn]

 

Too often I see people think that there are only 2 camps--you either think he's God or you think he's not the son of God and only a regular man. But that's incorrect because there are at least 3 camps on this.

 

At least is right! Reading about the councils and heresies and all the wrangling over what Jesus was and much much of each he was and how those parts manifested themselves...It's head-spinning.

[WishboneDawn]

Satan was an actual snake talking to Eve about an actual fruit on an actual tree...See what I mean?.

 

Literal readings are tricky too. For instance, read Genesis literally and tell me where it says the serpent is Satan. People often tend to think a literal reading is the most straightforward and common sense way to read scripture but sit down with it after realizing many ancients didn't take their stories literally or without knowing that the serpent was a common figure of mischeif (like Raven or Anansi) and the that Ancient Hebrews had no concept of Satan. Then the "literal" reading becomes awkward and highly interpretive.

 

It's a common mistake to think that people who don't have a literal interpretation of the Bible pick their interpretations out of the ether and some likely do but there's also a lot of criticism and scholarship behind much of it and it doesn't take a lot of exploring to realize non-literal readings have a solid foundation.

[Greta]

Are there any others like that?

 

Good question, and I wish I knew the answer! Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable about the Bible than I am can jump in here, because I know there are *many* such persons on these boards! If I run across anything, I will let you know.

[Greta]

Apostle's Creed sums it all up very well, imho.....

 

OR perhaps the Nicene Creed is useful...

 

I think they are simple summaries written by very knowledgable & thoughtful people which can be very helpful in discussions or conversations like this. They just bring it into a "nutshell" if you will.

 

Another thought: Where is the Christian core doctrine that says one must believe all or a certain percentage of the Bible? Neither the Nicean or Apostle's Creed say anything about that and those are two of the most fundamental statements about what it is to be Christian.

 

 

This is such a good point. Thank you both for bringing it up. My understanding is that, in certain times and places, many Christians did not even own or have access to a Bible. But that didn't make them any less Christian, imho.

Edited August 23, 2009 by GretaLynne

[Paisley Hedgehog]

I think the literal interpretation of the Bible is as much a cultural / geographical distinction as anything else. In my part of the country, it almost goes without saying that if you state that you are a Christian, you mean a born-again, Evangelical, 'we take the Bible as the literal Word of God' Christian.

 

IMHO, being a Christian means being a Christ-follower and accepting his divinity. All the other stuff is doctrinal difference.

[freeindeed]

I believe that a true Christian believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Jesus is The Word made flesh, so I don't see how someone who claims to be a believer in Christ could pick and choose what they believe from Scripture and what they don't believe. I believe in a literal 6-day creation, in a literal great flood, and that a big fish swallowed Jonah and spit him out 3 days later.

[Ester Maria]

If you read the epistles and put it together with what he taught, he did fulfill the law given to Moses. For example, he is the passover lamb, so Christians no longer need to do the passover. Same with sacrifices. The law was not given from the beginning. If you take the Bible chronology literally, or even just the part from Adam, you can see that thousands of years passed before that law was given. If you don't take the chronology literally, far more time passed before that law was given. But there was always a standard for men and women to live by if they were to follow God,

 

The epistles are very clear that we are not to live in sin, and that we are to still abide by many things such as not murdering, not committing adultery, not lying, stealing, etc. We are still to love God and our neighbour. Jesus summed the whole law into two main commandments, also. When he paid the price for sin, that changed many things, according to the Bible. The law couldn't do that, because no one but a perfect man could complete the whole law without sinning. But if someone fulfilled the entire law and never sinned and then gave his life to pay that price for others who have, then that law is now null and void for anyone who accepts this by making him Lord. This is based on the OT where someone could pay the debt of another and it would be completely wiped out.

 

Many Christans, but not all, are dispensationalists--ie they believe that not every part of the Bible is directly instructed to them even if it is for their learning (different dispensations or administrations.) The rules in Eden, for example, were different than the rules out of Eden, which were different than those after the flood, after the law of Moses, after Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, etc. (these are just a few examples).

Thank you a lot for this explanation! :)

I never thought of it that way, but it does make sense.

[Ester Maria]

I believe that a true Christian believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Jesus is The Word made flesh, so I don't see how someone who claims to be a believer in Christ could pick and choose what they believe from Scripture and what they don't believe. I believe in a literal 6-day creation, in a literal great flood, and that a big fish swallowed Jonah and spit him out 3 days later.

(Not directed only at you, but at all literalists.)

 

When you say you believe in six days of Creation, do you necessarily believe in six days as we know it, i.e. as six 24-hour days? If time is a created entity as well (before Creation there is no concept of time, right? as time starts with Creation; God existing for Himself before Creation is not a subject to time in any way, I mean time exists only for our world - at least that's how I always viewed it), do you think that it is possible that the "days" were of different nature, as compared to our view of them, when the world was being created, i.e. not measured by our 24-hour scale?

[Laura Corin]

I think the literal interpretation of the Bible is as much a cultural / geographical distinction as anything else. In my part of the country, it almost goes without saying that if you state that you are a Christian, you mean a born-again, Evangelical, 'we take the Bible as the literal Word of God' Christian.

 

IMHO, being a Christian means being a Christ-follower and accepting his divinity. All the other stuff is doctrinal difference.

 

In the UK, such an interpretation would you put you in the minority, I think.

 

Laura

[HRAAB]

This question has really hit home for me since I have been struggling with my own faith and Scripture, particularly. I've been trying to find words to describe where Scripture stands for me. While I believe man, with all his faults, wrote Scripture, I do believe it was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God is the author, but written through man with His guidance. So Scripture must be true. But then, how do we interpret some of those stories.

 

I also believe that faith should be reasonable. One should not have to stop their thinking, ratiocinating in order to believe. For me to believe that a man lived in the belly of a fish, that a donkey spoke, that a piece of fruit started this whole mess, would require me to stop reasoning. Because, to me, it's not reasonable. Now does that mean those stores are not true? Absolutely not. They hold the deepest, most profound human truth. The truth isn't that Jonah was in the belly of a fish, the truth is we need to obey God. I will never believe that God would expect me to stop reasoning, thinking, using all the faculties that He gave me, in order to believe. I do not believe God would expect us to believe in something that was unreasonable since he is the Creator of reason and order.

 

Also, I do not believe Christianity is faith in a book, or a religion of a book, but faith and belief in Christ. The Bible is book, words on a page, until we open our hearts and minds to Christ.

 

Janet

[Lovedtodeath]

(Not directed only at you, but at all literalists.)

 

do you think that it is possible that the "days" were of different nature, as compared to our view of them, when the world was being created, i.e. not measured by our 24-hour scale?

Yes

[Ginevra]

I was not going to post a response to this because it's something that is such a perplexing thought to me right now - such a frustration, but I may as well.

 

I think that it's interesting how there are so many so-called Christians and yet there are different church denominations on every street corner. Yet, they all believe the Bible and yet interpret it differently. I don't think Jesus came to start a new religion, He came to show us the way. So, if the Bible is the living word of God, how then could it be interpreted in so many ways and what makes THIS generation believe that we are so different from the generation milleniums ago? All of these denominations believe they are interpreting it correctly!

 

I've been a Christian for a little over ten years and I'm not certain where I'm at right now with my belief in all of the Bible being literal, or from God. I'm not saying it's not, I'm just unsure.

 

My dh went to Bible college years ago and he raises great questions all the time - ones I certainly can't answer. I don't know the Bible nearly as well as he does, but recently he raised questions on God calling for mass genocide - the wiping out of an entire population - including children. What if someone, today, claimed to be a prophet of God and claimed that God had commanded the entire Muslim population to be wiped out? Recently, we've been having these discussions and it leaves me frustrated. My dh was saying that, just like today, we often believe we hear certain things from God and even hear people say, "God told me this, yada yada" - so what if some of what is in the Bible came from regular human beings - just like you and me? I have thought God did x, y, or z in my life and ended up being wrong. Then again, there are certain things I know for certain I have seen God's hand in. But, I often wonder when someone comes to me and says, "God told me to_______".

 

I know God is sovereign and I've responded with all the typical reasoning that a Christian would. But, when you really start digging, when you really take certain scriptures apart, translate them - there are so many questions to be asked. We were in a small group and my husband was bringing some of those questions up and it's really not ok to ask or to question the Bible in the Christian realm because if you do, you are cast out. I know that God knows my own heart and if He made the Bible so that I could understand it (it's a letter to me, right) then, it must be ok to question it - at least based on a lack of knowlege or understanding. I will continue to question certain things about it and I will keep my heart open to truth. Seeking truth can't be a bad thing. But, I do believe the response, "Because the Bible says so" is given because of fear. It seems that Christians cling to the Bible because they can't trust the relationship they claim to have.

 

It also seems to truly understand much of the Bible, you really DO need to understand what was going on culturally. I can't understand why God would allow it all to be so complicated that you need a degree in Theology or a few years at seminary to truly get what was going on (and MANY of the guys my dh went to Bible college with have the same questions that he does). They all thought they had it figured out, yet they are left scratching their heads.

 

Lately, I just read the words of Jesus and rely more on the fact that I have the spirit of God through Christ living in me. I do believe too many Christians place way too much emphasis on the Bible and fail to trust the truth within them. Maybe this is because they are taught that their heart is wicked and deceitful beyond repair. Yet, that same heart has Christ living in it? So, which is it? The truth is written on our hearts and so why is the church teaching Christians that they can't trust their own heart? Would I not know right from wrong without the book? Would God fail to communicate to me without the Bible? Aren't we talking about the Living God here? I know that some say you have to take it all to believe in any of it. I'm not so certain that's true. The book of Revelation talks about a curse on anyone who adds to "this book" - which would be referring to the book of Revelation itself (it was not like they found the Bible assembled). The Catholic church left out many books, it was assembled by humans. The Catholics had an agenda, too.

 

It is a scary thought to wonder and question what you thought you could believe and trust in. Especially these days. But, I have to trust in God, not a book. You have to ask yourself what called you? A book? Or, did God call you to Himself and how do you know you are in relationship with God? God speaks in many ways, not just through words on a page. Creation itself is a testimony of God's existence. I do often wonder if it is possible for some people to truly be son's of God based on knowing love. If someone knows forgiveness, if someone understands what makes love REAL - is it possible that God could consider him a son of God? I certainly don't know, but I would hope so.

 

You bring up many points that I have considered repeatedly, and also made me think about a thing or two that I had never considered before, so I thank you for that. This: You have to ask yourself what called you? A book? Or, did God call you to Himself and how do you know you are in relationship with God? is quite profound. As a "church kid", I knew the Bible from since I could read or sing "Jesus Loves Me", but when I had the definiing experience, it had nothing to do with The Bible. Well said, and a lot of food for thought in that.

 

I can't understand why God would allow it all to be so complicated that you need a degree in Theology or a few years at seminary to truly get what was going on

I think that, too. Why would God "need" a book to be His Word? Books and language are so fallible. I'm not saying "Phth! The Bible! There's nothin' in it!"; I do think the Bible is unique among all books I've ever cracked...and that's a lot of books. But I'm not convinced God wanted The Bible to be what we see it as...for that matter, Jesus never wrote any part of the Bible himself.

 

it's really not ok to ask or to question the Bible in the Christian realm because if you do, you are cast out.

Yes, I've experienced this many, many times over in Christian circles. The church I attend now is more accepting in that respect than any other I've been in, but I have been rejected many times in my life for pursuing sense and asking Why. My parents are very devout Christians, but when, in an angry moment I asked my mom something like, "Well, what is the point of prayer when a hurricane comes and wipes a city off the map anyway!" She literally shut me down. She refused to speak about the "P-word" with me forever after.

 

but recently he raised questions on God calling for mass genocide - the wiping out of an entire population - including children. What if someone, today, claimed to be a prophet of God and claimed that God had commanded the entire Muslim population to be wiped out

 

Yes, that disturbs me as well. Also, in that same general area of the Bible, there is instruction to keep the virgins for yourself. Mmmmhmm. Can't you just see a male church leader saying "God told" him they must wipe out everyone, torture the animals, steal the goods, smash the babies, but save the virgins for themselves? :glare: That would go over like a hair in the macaroni salad.

[iwka]

Did not read any responses, but if you are a Christian, you believe that Bible is a revealed word of God. The problems occur whenever Christians start to interpret the Bible and form ideas, opinions, doctrines. The question is always: who is the authority?

[Ginevra]

I also believe that faith should be reasonable. One should not have to stop their thinking, ratiocinating in order to believe. For me to believe that a man lived in the belly of a fish, that a donkey spoke, that a piece of fruit started this whole mess, would require me to stop reasoning. Because, to me, it's not reasonable

 

Yeah, I think that, too. What drives me crazy is when I start to feel like the advice I get is, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" :glare: To say nothing of the fact that I could certainly not evangelize my faith if I can't form a sensible argument even for myself.

[Ginevra]

Literal readings are tricky too. For instance, read Genesis literally and tell me where it says the serpent is Satan. People often tend to think a literal reading is the most straightforward and common sense way to read scripture but sit down with it after realizing many ancients didn't take their stories literally or without knowing that the serpent was a common figure of mischeif (like Raven or Anansi) and the that Ancient Hebrews had no concept of Satan. Then the "literal" reading becomes awkward and highly interpretive.

 

It's a common mistake to think that people who don't have a literal interpretation of the Bible pick their interpretations out of the ether and some likely do but there's also a lot of criticism and scholarship behind much of it and it doesn't take a lot of exploring to realize non-literal readings have a solid foundation.

 

Well, sure, literal readings have their troubles, too. A lot of what is considered Doctrine in the faith (at least, any denomination to which I've belonged) is based on nothing or almost nothing in the scripture. They are based on church teaching and sometimes, from popular culture. The concept of Hell is based mostly on Dante's Inferno (not that I've read it, so I'm not affecting scholarship here that I don't own!). It's widely accepted that Satan was an Angel, a Big-Wig Angel, Head Honcho of Music Ministries and rebelled against God, taking a band of chumps with him. This is not in the Bible. There are a couple of symbolic scriptures that have been interpreted this way.

 

And for literal readings, how about the "daughters of man began to love the sons of God"? or however it's stated. This is a belief that humans had s*x with angels! Does anyone think *that's* true?

 

What I mean with "pick and choose" is that to understand a given story through interpretive means frees one up to understand any of it that way. Did God mean for us to view the Bible as His Word? If so, it's baffling why He would allow such silly stories to make the cut. If not, then how was the faith and what supports it ever supposed to make it out of the region and time-frame of Jesus? I think the Book was meant to keep heretical, competing ideas from circulation...just look at the Book and see if this is truth or heresy. But it obviously has not worked out that way. Even in a relatively small group of people who all call themselves Christians, there are many opposing views on practically every imaginable issue.

 

It bugs me a little when people say, "Whether or not Jonah actually camped out inside a fish for three actual days does not determine my salvation...it is non-salvific, so it doesn't matter." Both the "salvific" beliefs and these surrounding stories come to us from the same source - The Bible. So, if one believes the stuff that does matter, which came to them by way of the Bible, it begs that one has at least a modicum of regard for the surrounding stories in the Bible. If those are just moral stories, then how can you have faith in the doctrine that has to do with Jesus? How can you be confident that the disciples were not just "telling stories"? How can you say, "Well, these are interesting moral stories in keeping with cultures of the time." to one part of the Bible, but say, "But this stuff about Jesus and what He is and what He means...that is all the imperitive Word!" (I mean general you, BTW, not any particular poster.)

[WishboneDawn]

Jesus is The Word made flesh, so I don't see how someone who claims to be a believer in Christ could pick and choose what they believe from Scripture and what they don't believe.

 

I don't know how "Jesus is the Word made flesh," has anything to do with a literal interpretation of the Bible.

[PinkInTheBlue]

I don't see why it would be necessary to believe the Bible is the "word of God", created by Him and a personal message dictated by Him in order to be a Christian. The letters and stories chosen for the Bible are written by humans. Plain and simple. They were chosen from 100s of options to be bound in a book called "Bible" by humans. Plain and simple. Mankind sat down and decided which letters, stories and passed down narratives were "from God". Plain and simple. Man is fallible. Not to mention the Bible is contradicting, violent, selfish and confusing. That is not what I believe God is. If it's from God, it's going to make sense. It's going to be a clear message of love and peace. God didn't give us sense, logic, wisdom and discernment to just turn it all of when it comes to Him.

 

This is MY opinion and nothing in it is written in response to any previous posts. I haven't even read all the other posts. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

Quill said: Well, sure, literal readings have their troubles, too. A lot of what is considered Doctrine in the faith (at least, any denomination to which I've belonged) is based on nothing or almost nothing in the scripture. They are based on church teaching and sometimes, from popular culture. The concept of Hell is based mostly on Dante's Inferno (not that I've read it, so I'm not affecting scholarship here that I don't own!). Quite true. There are also scriptures about Fiery Gehenna that are attributed to Hades. It is my belief that Hades and Gehenna are two separate things.

And for literal readings, how about the "daughters of man began to love the sons of God"? or however it's stated. This is a belief that humans had s*x with angels! Does anyone think *that's* true?

Genesis 6:2 says that the sons of the true God began taking wives for themselves. It then goes on to say that they had relations producing sons and they were Nephilum, men of fame.

I think the Book was meant to keep heretical, competing ideas from circulation...just look at the Book and see if this is truth or heresy. But it obviously has not worked out that way. Even in a relatively small group of people who all call themselves Christians, there are many opposing views on practically every imaginable issue. Yes. When Jesus was on earth he spoke in illustrations that not everyone would get the sense of it. He also refused to show some a sign when it was asked for.

 

It bugs me a little when people say, "Whether or not Jonah actually camped out inside a fish for three actual days does not determine my salvation...it is non-salvific, so it doesn't matter." Both the "salvific" beliefs and these surrounding stories come to us from the same source - The Bible. So, if one believes the stuff that does matter, which came to them by way of the Bible, it begs that one has at least a modicum of regard for the surrounding stories in the Bible. If those are just moral stories, then how can you have faith in the doctrine that has to do with Jesus? How can you be confident that the disciples were not just "telling stories"? How can you say, "Well, these are interesting moral stories in keeping with cultures of the time." to one part of the Bible, but say, "But this stuff about Jesus and what He is and what He means...that is all the imperitive Word!" (I mean general you, BTW, not any particular poster.)

Yes, I see what you mean here.