Uneven development

[Quad Shot Academy]

I haven't had the time to read books on gifted kids yet, so I was hoping some of you could tell me what the theory on uneven development is. My rising 4th grader just placed in 7th grade in every subject on an achievement test, other than spelling and punctuation, which he is right at grade level with. The punctuation portion was mostly due to his lack of text editing practice. I already got a text editing workbook, that he is struggling with a little each day. His spelling is pretty bad, I was actually surprised that he tested at grade level, but he has bee making huge gains in the past year using AAS. I know his writing would not be above average either.

 

So, my question is: Should I slow down on all the other subjects and focus on trying to bring up his spelling and writing to the rest of his level or since he is at grade level in his weak areas, should I just let it be and continue on with what we have been doing?

 

Thanks!

[JenneinCA]

Teach him where he is in all his subjects. So teach at grade level for spelling and punctuation and maybe writing. And teach the rest of the subjects at whatever level they need to be at.

 

We are having similar issues. My ds8 is going to be doing All About Spelling Level 1, Easy Grammar 4 and IEW Level A. And Algebra 1 and a Mommy designed Introduction to Engineering course.

 

I can't imagine how unhappy my son would be if we spent all day at only the things he isn't good at and didn't do any of the things he is good at. YIKES!

[JeanM]

Teach him where he is in all his subjects. So teach at grade level for spelling and punctuation and maybe writing. And teach the rest of the subjects at whatever level they need to be at.

 

We are having similar issues. My ds8 is going to be doing All About Spelling Level 1, Easy Grammar 4 and IEW Level A. And Algebra 1 and a Mommy designed Introduction to Engineering course.

 

I can't imagine how unhappy my son would be if we spent all day at only the things he isn't good at and didn't do any of the things he is good at. YIKES!

 

:iagree: I'd just keep plugging away at the spelling. Don't slow down everything else because of it though. My ds10 is very similar. All About Spelling has been working well for him!

[Quad Shot Academy]

I can't imagine how unhappy my son would be if we spent all day at only the things he isn't good at and didn't do any of the things he is good at. YIKES!

 

That is a good point! :tongue_smilie: I was wondering if he would cry if I told him of my plan or if he would just say, "OK". I would of course still keep up some on those subjects since I wouldn't want him to forget a bunch, but right now we are doing three math curriculums, so two could be dropped. Considering he hasn't finished 5th grade math, I am a little befuddled as to how he scored 7th grade. :001_huh:

[MissKNG]

 

So, my question is: Should I slow down on all the other subjects and focus on trying to bring up his spelling and writing to the rest of his level or since he is at grade level in his weak areas, should I just let it be and continue on with what we have been doing?

 

Thanks!

 

I wouldn't slow down in the subjects in which he is advanced. Work each subject at his level. My dd is the same - we are doing K math and reading/phonics this coming September in homeschool and tracing/writing are still at a 3 year old level. I would never want to slow down her math and reading. Let them go at their own pace in everything!

[KristenS]

Considering he hasn't finished 5th grade math, I am a little befuddled as to how he scored 7th grade. :001_huh:

 

Is it possibly one of those achievement tests that says "Your son scored as well as a 7th grader taking the same test would", maybe? Rather than actually testing 7th grade material?

[Quad Shot Academy]

Is it possibly one of those achievement tests that says "Your son scored as well as a 7th grader taking the same test would", maybe? Rather than actually testing 7th grade material?

 

No, we took the CAT first and the overall score was that he took the 3rd grade test as a 9th grader, so I got an achievement test to find out the actual grade achievement level.

[melmichigan]

Which achievement test did you use if I'm not to nosey? It can make a difference. My DD has taken 5 different ones over time.

[JenneinCA]

It is probably because he can add, subtract, multiply and divide whole numbers, fractions and decimals. That is pretty much all that is taught up until Algebra.

[Quad Shot Academy]

Which achievement test did you use if I'm not to nosey? It can make a difference. My DD has taken 5 different ones over time.

 

The PASS test. Does it give artificially high grade levels? Is there a big difference between the different achievement tests?

[EKS]

Considering he hasn't finished 5th grade math, I am a little befuddled as to how he scored 7th grade. :001_huh:

 

My 1st grader, who had just finished a 2nd grade math book, scored at the 6th grade level for math on the WJ-III (individual achievement test). This says far more about average 6th graders than my son's math achievement.

[Quad Shot Academy]

My 1st grader, who had just finished a 2nd grade math book, scored at the 6th grade level for math on the WJ-III (individual achievement test). This says far more about average 6th graders than my son's math achievement.

 

I was thinking the same thing. I thought he bombed the math portion of the CAT because he got so many problems wrong that normally he would have gotten right, because of test stres. Somehow his score still came out very high. I guess they expect most kids to get A LOT wrong.

 

I do know he is gifted in math, whether he is 1, 2 or 3 grades ahead doesn't really matter, because I have tried to slow him down a tad by using several curriculums and he just blazes through all of them with at least 95% right. He typically does a couple MUS units each week, if we are doing MUS that week.

[Laura Corin]

I just keep going forward from where they are, advancing in each subject at a pace that is suitable for them. Calvin is easily reading at an adult level but his maths is about at grade level.

 

Laura

[EKS]

There are some issues with the PASS test.

 

First, the grade level equivalents that they include with the documentation are derived from their own pool of data on homeschoolers who have taken the PASS test. This group (as you can see from the percentiles) is very different from the (national) norming sample. To get a more accurate understanding of grade level equivalents I found a list of RIT scores and percentiles based on a large (national) norming study done in 2002. It's not perfect because the tests were different (though RIT scores are supposed to eliminate problems with using different tests). Anyway, the grade levels seemed to fairly closely align with what I would expect given my son's national percentile ranking so I figured it was good enough.

 

Anyway, this is my long winded way of saying that it's likely that your son's grade level equivalents are even higher that what was reported by Hewitt. For example, Hewitt says a RIT score in reading of 230 corresponds to a 7th grader at the end of the year. This same score when looking at the national norms is off the chart (the chart ends at grade 10.9). Similarly, with math: Hewitt's 7th grade RIT of 235 corresponds with grade 10.0. And with language: Hewitt's 7th grade RIT of 226 is off the chart on the national scale (>10.9).

 

The end of grade RIT scores reported to you this year might have been somewhat different as I'm looking at a report from 2007.

 

Now, as for comparing to other tests, I had my son take the PASS test *and* the ITBS two years ago. In comparing percentiles, reading was 2 points higher on the PASS, math was 18 points higher, and language was 12 points higher. I think this was due to the fact that the PASS was untimed and (especially in math) that my son could take a much higher level test and so the ceiling effect was lessened.

 

I'm sorry this is so long.

Edited July 29, 2009 by EKS

[melmichigan]

I have never heard of it. I did look into it and my only concern would be that they admit on the first screen that it isn't a nationally normed test, and is only recognized in three states for the purpose of school reporting. The most common nationally normed achievement tests often used by psychologists and schools and widely accepted are the Woodcock-Johnson (WJ III), the Kaufman, the WIAT, and the WRAT. Then you get into above grade testing with things like the EXPLORE.

 

As far as your son goes, I wouldn't change his other subjects. This sounds similar to my DD in the sense that she is age appropriate in writing but because everything else is so advanced it actually looks like an LD on some of her achievement tests if not looked at properly. We just keep plugging away at writing and give whatever suppport we need there while letting her spread her wings so to speak, in her other subjects. I would recommend the same with your son, pretty much what you are already doing. You don't want to stifle their love of learning.:001_smile:

[japhmi]

Uneven development is 100% normal and expected in gifted children.

[Quad Shot Academy]

I have never heard of it. I did look into it and my only concern would be that they admit on the first screen that it isn't a nationally normed test, and is only recognized in three states for the purpose of school reporting. The most common nationally normed achievement tests often used by psychologists and schools and widely accepted are the Woodcock-Johnson (WJ III), the Kaufman, the WIAT, and the WRAT. Then you get into above grade testing with things like the EXPLORE.

 

 

 

Yeah, I went back and forth about doing it or not. Just because only 3 states officially recommend the test does not mean 47 reject it. Lots of states don't list specific tests. I am going to send it in to my state, CO, this year to see if they question it. If so, I can send the CAT results in.

 

I just wanted an achievement test that I could do in my own home to get an idea of grade level. I keep feeling like all of the curriculum I am using is not hard enough, but I am not brave enough to just skip ahead. About 6 months ago, I noticed that he was not being challenged in anything but writing and spelling, so I started having him go through curriculum really fast by doing it orally or just doing 1 page of math per unit. He gained a year and I still feel like he is rarely being challenged, so I was looking for an objective viewpoint as to what is going on. I think I got my answer!

[Quad Shot Academy]

Anyway, this is my long winded way of saying that it's likely that your son's grade level equivalents are even higher that what was reported by Hewitt.

 

Thank you for the explanation!

[kpupg]

So, my question is: Should I slow down on all the other subjects ...

 

:eek: NOOOOooooooo!

 

Oh, sorry about shouting ... but no, that is exactly what kills the love of learning. It's what turns gifted kids into zombies in public schools.

 

The best thing about home schooling -- it's done for your child, personally. So you can feed the child at their level of competence and/or desire in each area. Typically, they'll be way ahead in a few things, average in something, maybe behind in something. So what, that is normal for gifted kids. As opposed to normal for ordinary kids, which is an entirely different animal.

 

I recommend the Hoagie's gifted website, where they have articles on asynchronous development that you might find interesting.

 

Oh, and enjoy the ride! :)

 

Karen

[Quad Shot Academy]

:eek: NOOOOooooooo!

 

Oh, sorry about shouting ... but no, that is exactly what kills the love of learning. It's what turns gifted kids into zombies in public schools.

 

 

 

:D It seems like most everyone is in agreement, which actually shocks me! :lol: I just have this nagging doubt in my mind about a 10 year old doing Algebra, that agonizes over writing 1 paragraph!

 

Thanks everyone!

[EKS]

I just have this nagging doubt in my mind about a 10 year old doing Algebra, that agonizes over writing 1 paragraph!

 

 

 

My 10yo who agonized over writing one paragraph did algebra.

 

We did half of the book that year and then the next year did that half over again and finished the book. We did the repeat because he was having issues writing out his work. So your doubts are well founded, because there is a significant writing element to algebra.

[nova147]

I just have this nagging doubt in my mind about a 10 year old doing Algebra, that agonizes over writing 1 paragraph!

 

 

 

That doubt seems a lot like the one I have about my 4 year old who can't figure out what foot his shoe goes on learning multiplication and reading chapter books. Guess it just goes with the territory!

[Mommy22alyns]

I'm late to the party, but I know alllll about uneven development! Becca is working at a 2nd-3rd grade level in everything but math, where she is right at grade level (1st). I just do what everyone else here does - teach her where she's at in every subject.

 

Think about it - everyone has areas in which they struggle and areas in which they excel. In gifted kids, those are just more pronounced. Becca's a LA girl, not a mathy kid. That's just how she is. She's not behind in math just because she's not as advanced in it as she is in everything else. And I have to keep telling myself that too. ;)

 

Again and again... that's the beauty of homeschooling. We get to meet these kids where they are and they can move forward at their pace in every subject - their best ones and their most challenging ones. :001_smile:

[Quad Shot Academy]

Think about it - everyone has areas in which they struggle and areas in which they excel. In gifted kids, those are just more pronounced.

 

Again and again... that's the beauty of homeschooling. We get to meet these kids where they are and they can move forward at their pace in every subject - their best ones and their most challenging ones. :001_smile:

 

I totally agree with that for elementary school; that is how I have always done it. I am a little more uneasy as we move into the higher level work. The subjects start to interplay more. Is it really doing high school science or history if you can't write grade level reports? Possibly. What if his writing/spelling is the only thing holding him back from getting into a program/college that he really wants to do? Will I always regret not spending less time on his favorite subjects and more time on his weak ones? I know a lot of people don't take spelling seriously, but I dropped out college because of it. I was 15 when I went to college and I could not pass history or a foreign language because I couldn't spell the words, even though I knew them. I gave up after two years of taking and dropping these classes. You all would kick me off the accelerated board if I didn't have spell check! :eek:

 

I think I will take everyone's advice anyhow and let him continue as he is in all subjects but writing and spelling. I think we will hit them a tad harder, about an extra 30 minutes a day. I will try to cut each of his other subjects back by a few minutes to get the extra time. Hopefully within the next couple of years, he will catch on. :001_smile:

Edited July 31, 2009 by Quad Shot Academy

[Quad Shot Academy]

My son just came to me while copying his latest writing assignment and asked why we had not been doing spelling (AAS) and language (R&S). I told him that we were taking a break because we just got back from vacation and were leaving again on another vacation, so we would start it up again when we got back. He said, "Hey, that's not fair! I mean that is the only thing holding me back from skipping a grade. We won't be back from our vacation for over a month. If we wait that long, I won't remember anything and will be even farther behind. Can we please start it next week, or if I get bored tomorrow can we do some of it?" :smilielol5: :auto:

[EKS]

Is it really doing high school science or history if you can't write grade level reports?

 

I would say no. At least not to go on the transcript.

 

This is where I struggled with officially bumping my son up to high school. He has been using high school level texts for some subjects for a few years now but the output wasn't there (except in math). Now, finally, this past year things started coming together. He was finally able to write coherent responses to questions about history, literature, and science. He can write a 2 page paper without much input from me. Also, he has dyslexia and ADHD so I incorporated the suggestions for accommodations and additional support into something like my own version of an IEP and, lo and behold, suddenly it became clear that he was doing high school level work all along last year (in 4 of 5 subjects). What I had been thinking was needing too much help was actually appropriate support for a high school student with dyslexia and ADHD.

 

(And, BTW, my son is doing AAS level 2 right now.)

[melmichigan]

I just wanted to add a little since this has been discussed a lot on another board I participate on. Many parents, I am told, suddenly see it come together with writing in GT kids, usually somewhere between 9-11 years of age. I am hoping that is the case with my DD as well and do see some improvement lately. Just thought I'd share.:)

[alexfam]

I think you have been doing a great job for him to test so well above his grade. Continue doing what you are doing now and then maybe during the Summer do some fun stuff on the subjects he is at grade level.

[Quad Shot Academy]

Thanks everybody! :)

[Guest popular123]

Considering he hasn't finished 5th grade math, I am a little befuddled as to how he scored 7th grade

[EKS]

Considering he hasn't finished 5th grade math, I am a little befuddled as to how he scored 7th grade

 

My son finished 2nd grade math and got a grade equivalent of 6th grade on the WJ-III. He was able to do this because the average 6th grader knows little more than 2nd grade math.

[AnitaMcC]

Considering he hasn't finished 5th grade math, I am a little befuddled as to how he scored 7th grade

 

Not really surprising to me.

 

Ds is 14 and he has never had more than algebra 1... but for the college placement test he took over the summer, placed him into accelerated precalculus/trig. For the SAT (took it as a 8th grader) he scored a 560 on the math portion which is better than 64% of the high school seniors taking the test nationwide. He also scored a 560 on the verbal (better than 69% of seniors).

 

So not having been officially taught the material doesn't mean they don't know it already.

 

So for this year as a 9th grader he is completing Algebra 2 and Geometry in one year at home and then next year he will likely take precalculus at the CC fall semester and then start calculus the spring semester as a high school sophmore.

 

For English... his writing is very poor so we decided to keep him out of college courses for this year. We want to strengthen his writing skills first. He is doing a AP chemistry course this year self teaching. He plans to take the AP exam in May.

[ElizabethB]

His spelling is pretty bad, I was actually surprised that he tested at grade level, but he has bee making huge gains in the past year using AAS.

 

I used to be a poor speller that tested above grade level! I could figure out the correct answer when given 4 choices, but would misspell things on my own. After teaching with phonics for a while and learning all the sound/spelling correspondences and the spelling rules, I finally learned how to spell, although I will still misspell an occasional word.

 

For me, even if I wrote down a word 100 times, I would not remember it unless it made sense, so it really helped me to know the rules behind things. You might want to have him make up a spelling notebook from his misspelled words and have him try to figure out if there is a rule behind the word, or pinpoint the reason he is misspelling the word if there is not a rule and group words by patterns of reasons and rules.

 

Here's some of my spelling thoughts that might be helpful:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Spelling/spellingforsucce.html

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Spelling/learningtospell.html

 

And, since he's mathematically inclined, here's the percentages of sound spelling correspondences for the most common 17,000 words, my mathematically inclined students have found them helpful. (Everyone else looks at me blankly and leaves the sheets in the room.)

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics%20Lsns/Resources/Letter%20sound%20read.pdf

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics%20Lsns/Resources/sound%20letter%20spell.pdf

 

These make more sense when used in conjunction with "The ABCs and All Their Tricks," which is also based on the same study of the most common 17K words in English.

[Nan in Mass]

Yup - or having to teach your child the alphabet so they can look up words they don't know in the French dictionary. Or sending your 13yo off to walk around Japan for 3 months with toggles on his shoes because he can't tie laces. Or getting a badly misspelled email from your successful, retired engineer of a father...

[silvermine]

Just think of it this way: Would you want to make Mozart stop violin lessons just because he wasn't good at grammar?

 

Of course not. :) Just teach him where he is in each subject. Don't neglect the ones he isn't as good at, but if you make the things he isn't good at the focus of his life... well, he's going to be less happy and won't develop his talents as well.

[zaichiki]

Just think of it this way: Would you want to make Mozart stop violin lessons just because he wasn't good at grammar?

 

Of course not. :) Just teach him where he is in each subject. Don't neglect the ones he isn't as good at, but if you make the things he isn't good at the focus of his life... well, he's going to be less happy and won't develop his talents as well.

 

Very good point. I'm going to file this away for future (if I need a reminder) use. :)

 

 

Thanks!

[frogpond1]

and struggled with spelling/handwriting. He's 8th grade age now and half way through Jacobs Geometry. The thing I'm most concerned about is not putting him into any high school level work that he cannot complete in the manner of a high school student. (In other words I don't want to push him ahead only to be his crutch.) So far he has been working at least a grade level ahead in all subjects except spelling, so he'd be a 9th grader this year, but I'm really going to see if he can do the work. For me, it isn't about pushing him, but really making sure he is in a place challenging enough to engage him, but also where he really can work. He did high school Latin1 last year and got a gold medal in the National Latin Exam, so I know he can do some high school work. It would be easy if he was just an 8th grader through and through and I didn't have to stew so much over where to put him. So, I guess I have an older version similar to your predicament- math, Latin, logic, science are all accelerated. Spelling is age level or a little below, and writing is something he doesn't really enjoy, but he does. What is so hard is we don't have groups of kids to compare too. I know I'm a tough grader... Anyway I'm just commiserating here.

[Quad Shot Academy]

Anyway I'm just commiserating here.

 

Thanks Christine. :)

 

I decided to pull out all the outlining and report writing exercises (10) that we haven't done in Rod and Staff 4 and 5 and have him concentrate on writing for a couple weeks. I told him he could spend all day on it, but it would be our focus for the first two weeks of school. He only moaned a little. :tongue_smilie: After that, I will leave his writing where it is and work at it a little each day. Maybe if he really applies himself, he will take off. I think he will be happy knowing that this is only for a short period of time, rather than hacking away at it all year.