keptwoman Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I had a look at Exploring Creation with Botony last night. I was really impressed with the thoroughness and depth of the program. I had a good look through and God and creation is ALL through the book, but in many places I could either just leave out the paragraph when reading aloud, or substitute the phrase "evolution has..." instead of "gods design...." etc. I was wondering if anyone else has used this successfully in a secular home. Also whether anyone bought it, tried and gave up due to the christian content. TIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Not in the way that you are suggesting, but I do modify Protestant texts routinely to remove elements that conflict with my religious beliefs. I think that you might feel more comfortable with the "Real Science 4 Kids", however. The author is Christian, but her beliefs do not intrude into the science. (I know of a couple of board members who would trash my assertion.) I think there would be much less "modifying" for you to do. I agree with you about how appealing the elementary books are. (I care nothing for Dr. Wile's books, in contrast.) To my own surprise, this summer I bought DD the first zoology book, and we both are enjoying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 Yes I've looked at RS4K, and I would be comfortable with using them too. I was just particularly impressed with this Botany book as it's something I tried to pull together myself and failed miserably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayt ul-Hikmah Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I used Zoology: Flying Creatures and just took a Sharpie to it first. I left in references to God but took out young-earth references and Bible verses. I found it helpful to do that ahead of time rather than stumble along as I read aloud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I'm using both, actually. The Botany and Zoology books have such fine photographic illustrations. RS4K has only line drawings. Yes I've looked at RS4K, and I would be comfortable with using them too.I was just particularly impressed with this Botany book as it's something I tried to pull together myself and failed miserably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samiam Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 My DS10 used Swimming Creatures last year. The book is beautiful and just so well-done, I choose to over look the Christian content, as I normally choose to use secular curriculum. I did find that the religious content was pretty easy to skim over. It's usually a short paragraph, or couple of sentences in each chapter, but it's not throughout the whole chapter. Because DS was a bit older, we just had the conversation that we would focus on the "facts" of the book, and that we understand everyone has their opinion on creation/evolution, and that this was the author's opinion, not part of the facts of the book. Depending on your children's age, you can either skip it in the reading, mark it out, or have a pre-conversation about that portion. I would recommend the books, we are doing Astronomy this year, and drooling for the Anatomy book next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I've been wondering this too. We are Christian, but liberal/nonliteral, and the books look so good I've been thinking of getting some and modifying or discussing the ways in which accepted scientific thought differs from what is presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I have seen a lot of people describe Apologia as boring and cite examples of "ridiculous" young earth beliefs interspersed. Now you have me rethinking Apologia. What ages is it best for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tohru Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I used Zoology: Flying Creatures and just took a Sharpie to it first. I left in references to God but took out young-earth references and Bible verses. I found it helpful to do that ahead of time rather than stumble along as I read aloud. Yup. That is what we did to Astronomy and Flying Creatures... although I used a black Crayola marker. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemykids Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I have seen a lot of people describe Apologia as boring and cite examples of "ridiculous" young earth beliefs interspersed. Now you have me rethinking Apologia. What ages is it best for? All ages through high school I believe. As you know, I am Christian, and prefer secular materials. ;) But we are planning to use it eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 I have seen a lot of people describe Apologia as boring and cite examples of "ridiculous" young earth beliefs interspersed. Now you have me rethinking Apologia. What ages is it best for? Last night at a homeschool Mums meeting I saw two families examples of the work they produced during the Botany year, the kids work was amazing and the families both said the kids are retaining it really well (they did it in 2008) The kids certainly had taken pride in their work, and it didn't look at all boring to me. Apparantly you can use the Elementary series with any Elementary aged child, obviously the younger ones will do less and get less out of it, but the read aloud type style would mean they could certainly join in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Thanks a lot guys, now I have to look at all this.... :glare: I was going to totally wing it this year on science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangearrow Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 This would definitely be do-able. We're Christian, but sometimes I skip over the overtly God-created-this-for-this-special-purpose sections. It would be easily done if you went through it beforehand, as others have suggested, and just drew a line through the sentences you want to note read out loud. :) My kids still talk about astronomy things they learned about 2 years ago from Apologia. LOVE the illustrations and the way they explain things to the kids. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I looked over a unit in the astronomy book. It looked pretty good until I came to this: "We are rotating while we revolve around the sun, and God made it so that we don’t even get dizzy!" Ok, I understand this is a religious text, but is this how they explain scientific concepts? We don't get dizzy because God didn't want us to? Hmmm. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Surprise ! but I'm going to defend the text on this one. This book is written for young children, and uses a conversational style common to books for elementary ages. I don't at all "read" this as a silly explaination of a scientific concept; it is not even trying to explain any science with this sentence. The author is simply remarking to her reading audience [of children] that one does not feel the physical effects of the earth's rotation. I react to this excerpt in the same way as I react to remarks in children's history books (e.g. Hillyer's text) made directly to the reader, which do not directly "teach" anything, and which can be ignored without diminishing the text's usefulness. Moving right along. . . The continued use of conversational style in the Apologia series for 7th grade on up is one of the many irritants which drove our family away, permanently, from those textbooks. What "works" for young children can annoy at older ages ! I looked over a unit in the astronomy book. It looked pretty good until I came to this: "We are rotating while we revolve around the sun, and God made it so that we don’t even get dizzy!" Ok, I understand this is a religious text, but is this how they explain scientific concepts? We don't get dizzy because God didn't want us to? Hmmm. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Ok, that makes sense. I still have kind-of an icky feeling about it, though. Guess that style's not for me. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Ok, that makes sense. I still have kind-of an icky feeling about it, though. Guess that style's not for me. Tara an icky feeling. LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I'm going to "P.S." to my previous comments. Isn't the "direct address conversational style" characteristic of "old-fashioned" books? I know that when I pick up (or read on the 'net) public domain texts for children, I instinctively "squirm" slightly at all of the "Dear Little Child", "Of course, my Dear Young Reader", and so forth sentences which directly address the reader. I want to stereotype this style as "Victorian" -- but I don't want to insult the Victorians, either ! :) Ok, that makes sense. I still have kind-of an icky feeling about it, though. Guess that style's not for me. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Isn't the "direct address conversational style" characteristic of "old-fashioned" books? I don't know, but I kinda like the "Gentle Reader" tone, but I have only encountered it in fiction books. Perhaps it would irk me in non-fiction. I like narrative style, like SOTW, though. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 So I downloaded all the samples for each book/notebook and it looked like I *might* be able to work with it (although it would take a lot of self editing) but when I looked at the Rainbow Resource I am like ACK! :tongue_smilie: I will have to really think about this carefully, then peruse the used sites. IF I can get past a lot of it. I would probably just go with the zoology books. I am a bit leery of astronomy taught from this viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 So what put you off of the books on Rainbow? the price, or one of the comments? Any pros and cons of buying the notebooks or not? I suppose it just depends if we read the book, or plan to do all the activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 So I downloaded all the samples for each book/notebook and it looked like I *might* be able to work with it (although it would take a lot of self editing) but when I looked at the Rainbow Resource I am like ACK! :tongue_smilie: I will have to really think about this carefully, then peruse the used sites. IF I can get past a lot of it. I would probably just go with the zoology books. I am a bit leery of astronomy taught from this viewpoint. Yes I don't think I could do Astronomy either. Is there any way you can have a look at the books in person? Holding it in my hands and seeing the text for myself really helped me with that. Honestly before Thursday night I would not have considered it AT ALL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Does your town/city have any Protestant education stores, such as Mardel's? They stock these books. That is how I chose the Zoology I volume, by sitting down by the shelf and examining the book in order to decide. Yes I don't think I could do Astronomy either. Is there any way you can have a look at the books in person? Holding it in my hands and seeing the text for myself really helped me with that. Honestly before Thursday night I would not have considered it AT ALL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winoelle Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 My Zoology 2 - Swimming Creatures arrived yesterday and I had time to peruse the first couple of lessons with my sharpie. In the introductory portion at the beginning I edited an entire paragraph, after that, I really only had to edit a little. There are a couple of "facts" they say prove creation that I will have research and then decide how I want to present, but other than that I think this is going to be an excellent text for us. The information about the actual science is excellent and thorough and my dd7 is SO excited by this book. Noelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 What turned me off was the description of how it was just so great that there was finally a good elementary creation science series. It was just so over the top in regards to it's viewpoint. If I hadn't seen this thread I would NEVER have considered it, but my husband and I both liked the look of the samples. So here I am, actually considering purchasing a creation science textbook. I would never have thought that would happen! Anyway... I was wondering if any of you who have already marked up your books and made them not very sellable (especially to anyone who would want it as written) ...... would you consider selling me your copy? I am finding them in new condition for 20-25$ppd. PM me. THANKS!!! Korin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I was just reminded of something..... I am imagining you going through it with a sharpie... and I remember getting an art book out of the library and it having random post-it notes in it. I didn't really think about it until I realized it covered up "private parts". Also, a review of something in a catalog saying how great a science book was, even being from a non-christian viewpoint, and luckily the evolution page was only 2 pages long and they faced each other... therefore you could GLUE THEM TOGETHER. It goes both ways, doesn't it? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) I love your idea about post-its. Something in me has a hard time with sharpie -- but you reminded me -- what about white copy tape? I use it a lot at work, it comes in different widths, and then you can peel off to resell or give away. Edited July 11, 2009 by EmilyK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyDay Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I personally do not like the elementary series for any number of reasons. It is too chatty, too boring to study the same thing all year, and just too.....something. I do think there are better elementary science series out there. If you want a science text you could "sharpie" out references, personally, I think BJU would be easier. I am not a fan of BJU for several reasons and there was a thread going around earlier in the summer that would explain that better than I could at the moment. But, I do not think the religious materials are as integral in BJU as they are in Apologia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I have not seen the Apologia materials but in the past I have tried to use heavily religious materials secularly by doing what you describe and it drove me nuts. A few years ago I finally decided it wasn't worth it and have never bought anything that I've needed to modify since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Since you're considering the Elem. books, I'd say you could take out the Creation Confirmation sections (although I have to suggest you read them :) ) and there may be a spot or two, but generally, you could use it. It's a great program. We learned a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winoelle Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I can't say enough how much I like the other aspects of this book, and to me, editing out a sentence here and there is not a big deal. Plus, while the conversational style of the writing may not appeal to me, as an adult, I am really not the one that needs to like it, and my dd7 loves it. Studying one topic, in depth, means that there is more chance to really delve into what interests us and actually have some retention of information, rather then just here, there, everywhere. In the end I guess it is about what works for your child, this is a great fit for us and as an entirely secular homeschooler I don't see the "creation" aspect of this as a reason to bypass it. Noelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Anyway... I was wondering if any of you who have already marked up your books and made them not very sellable (especially to anyone who would want it as written) ...... would you consider selling me your copy? What a great idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheologyMom Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I had a look at Exploring Creation with Botony last night. I was really impressed with the thoroughness and depth of the program. I had a good look through and God and creation is ALL through the book, but in many places I could either just leave out the paragraph when reading aloud, or substitute the phrase "evolution has..." instead of "gods design...." etc. I was wondering if anyone else has used this successfully in a secular home. Also whether anyone bought it, tried and gave up due to the christian content. TIA. This approach will work alright with some of the subjects, particularly botany, but not so well with astronomy. Some of the scientific content itself is actually inaccurate, such as the astronomy text teaches that the big bang never happened. Another example is in the text on flying creatures, it teaches kids there were dinosaurs on the ark (about 5,000 years ago). In short, this is not just a religious issue, it's also a matter of scientific accuracy. If you want to use scientifically accurate texts, use Apologia with caution. You better have some in-depth knowledge about science so you can steer clear of the errors. Best. Theology Mom oldearthcreationism.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Wow, that is kind of discouraging. I guess I have been looking for some single subject, in depth but engaging, science texts and I thought these might be it. But I don't want to be editing on every page and paragraph. I have enough knowledge to navigate around the issues TheologyMom just raised, but I think it will seem strange to my kids to be reading a text with them that we systematically disregard. Sigh. Ok, any sense of which of the Apologia books is the most secular friendly? Maybe I can start from there. Botany? Are any of the animal ones more secular friendly than the others? By secular friendly, I mean in accordance with generally accepted scientific principles. I am fine with God references, or a discussion of the author's faith, or scripture quotes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 I agree that Astronomy would be hard to use without much editing and additions. But I thought Botony was great and the editing and deleting will be fairly minor. The creatures ones also I think could be used but in some areas I would want to do a bit of research and consider how to present it. Like the one mentioned by Theology Mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I haven't looked at the elementary apologia books, but I am using the high school texts, starting with biology,(year 9) we are having no problem with altering the text and skipping the odd paragraph. I will skip the whole chapter on evolution altogether. we are also using the physics text (year 11) and I really haven't noticed much christian content in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy in Ky Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 We just got Swimming Creatures and dd9 totes it around the house, takes it in the car, and reads aloud to us. (We haven't started our school year yet either.) She loves it. We are Christians, and we love all the references to God. I just thought some of you might like to know how appealing the book is to children. You can also print off notebooking pages from the Apologia website! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunty Social Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 We really love the Apologia Elem. series here. Of course, we are Christian, so don't have an issue with references to God - although Apologia is a little heavy handed for our taste. Even so, the conversational style, the flashes of humor, and the overall really good science content are perfect for us. We tried RS4K last year, and hated it. It was boring, and didn't go into enough depth. If you wanted to use it secularly....well, it depends on your beliefs and how strongly you feel about them. We disagree with some of the statements in the book, but use them as a jumping off point for a discussion about the bias you will find in any book, no matter how hard someone tries to be objective and a couple other of our beliefs. I personally wouldn't buy the new notebooks they have out. The free notebooking downloads from the website are excellent, and more than enough for elementary level needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunty Social Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 We just got Swimming Creatures and dd9 totes it around the house, takes it in the car, and reads aloud to us. (We haven't started our school year yet either.) She loves it. This made me laugh. I ordered the rest of the elementary books for my kids to use as summer reading, and when the box arrived they dived in, started pulling the books out and begging to read them. They took them to bed that night! I've actually started a couple of other subjects that I had reserved for Sept because they won't leave me alone about wanting to start! Looks like I'm not the only one to get excited by a new shipment of school books:lol: There go my plans to have everything typed up and organized before school starts.:glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Okay, since we tend to unschool history and science, these last few posts have me really thinking I should check these out. Is there one on insects? Chemistry? I don't even know where to buy them? CBD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplain Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I looked at Flying Creatures, and while the pictures are beautiful, the chatty style is attractive, and the activities looked fun, I just can't do it. The dinosaurs on the ark, at a time when I believe dinosaurs were long extinct, were a definite deal breaker. Although the dino example is obvious, the text doesn't always indicate which statements have a biblical basis. I can't fact check everything.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I don't know if this would help, but if you really like the series overall, you could use it in the same way that Christians use the better-quality secular materials. We just skip over (or reteach) that which we reject, and make good use of the book's majority worthwhile content. Same thing we do, just in reverse. To me, this makes sense. I don't always take the time to minutely critique everything, I just omit the obvious errors (errors from my worldview). After fourteen years of being forced to clean up materials (both secular and religious), I've pretty well caught the hang of it ! :) I looked at Flying Creatures, and while the pictures are beautiful, the chatty style is attractive, and the activities looked fun, I just can't do it. The dinosaurs on the ark, at a time when I believe dinosaurs were long extinct, were a definite deal breaker. Although the dino example is obvious, the text doesn't always indicate which statements have a biblical basis. I can't fact check everything.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winoelle Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 For me, since a lot of the stuff that is sort of debatable, or only a theory (for example the Big Bang Theory, or oceanic salt content as a means to age the earth) and not actually proven or provable, if only one side of it is included that is an opportunity for me to bring up all possibilities and explain that there are different theories and possibilities. I also explain what I believe and why. Noelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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