Annoyed with copyright

[Lovedtodeath]

*An example I can think of off the top of my head is how Five In A Row changed the way their books are distributed, in part because they not going to be able to stay in business if they didn't....

Really? what did they do?

[jplain]

Five In A Row used to sell through various retailers including Amazon and several online stores catering to homeschoolers. Now they only sell through their own website, except maybe (?) one or two exceptions for Canadian customers. For quite a while, many of their products were out of print. Many were made available as digital units. However, that's changing, and they seem to be slowly but surely bringing their curriculum materials back into print.

 

(Of course this doesn't address the fact that many of the books they recommend are OOP. I personally believe their business growth will be limited until they start updating their curricula with in-print alternatives.)

 

Oops, I'm not sure I'm accurately representing their position above, so I'll add a link to a post that was authored in 2007 by one of the owners of FIAR: here. I do know that some books have come back into print (most recently the cookbook), so it doesn't appear that they've completely abandoned the print form of their products.

Edited June 22, 2009 by jplain

[ekarl2]

Five In A Row used to sell through various retailers including Amazon and several online stores catering to homeschoolers. Now they only sell through their own website, except maybe (?) one or two exceptions for Canadian customers.

 

It's interesting you bring this up; my mom and I were discussing this this weekend in WA (hello, all WHO convention attendees!).

 

Before the internet, books sellers had to use the wholesale system to get their books out there. There was really no other way to make the books available to the "masses." Nowadays, though, the internet has, IMHO, made it sort of silly to wholesale for many of us. We have a Canadian store we wholesale to so that Canadian customers don't have to pay the OUTRAGEOUS shipping charges between us and them. Other than that, we only have one homeschool store we wholesale with. They're in the same city and it allows us to not have the "can I order off your web site and come pick up the books to save on shipping?" calls. I see no benefit AT ALL to selling on Amazon or any other online retailer. If someone wants to buy our books online, I'd rather them buy from us! To you, the consumer, it doesn't make a lot of difference. You pay the same price (shipping may be a buck or two more), but it makes a huge difference in our bottom line. Not to mention that we don't have to bother with ISBN numbers (so expensive) and other pains-in-the-neck that come with wholesaling to big stores. I can totally see why FIAR did what they did and I wonder why more curriculum providers don't.

[mrssnow]

Wow! What a great and long thread. I got to page 14 and now my sight is too blurry to continue.

 

I can't say I agree with copyright laws as they are written. I think once I pay for something I should own it and be free to do with it what I please. That is not to say I am willing to break the laws to do that. I prefer to act ethically and legally but I think copyright laws should change.

 

I do think it is a waste of paper and financial resources to have to buy new consumables for each child or not be able to even gift a consumable. This wastefulness is to me a "sin" because I do think we are supposed to care for our earth as a matter of moral responsibility. To throw something out because of copyright issues is wrong imo and I cannot throw away like that but my house cannot become a landfill either. So what is a person with a moral environmental conscious to do? In this case I am referring to issues like the Calvert or Winter Promise curriculum. Obviously with consumables if you consumed them filling the pages out then reselling is not an option.

However could you gift a consumable (even written in) to say someone of limited financial resources (that would therefore not be a potential customer for the publisher) to use say on separate notebook paper etc. They are not copying it or paying for the used consumable but taking the questions and using them orally or writing the answers on separate paper would that still be "stealing and just as unethical? I guess I sympathize with the have nots of the world and can justify this in such a scenario. Of course it would be great if providers had a recycle and reuse program for materials that are not supposed to be resold. They could be returned and then gifted through the publisher/company to hs families with limited resources via applications so the company could determine if they really qualify. Someone else mentioned this option and I think it would be awesome.

Hsing is still viewed by many as an option for the elite only and the high cost of good curriculum is one of the reasons it is seen this way. For those of us who believe HS is a better option for many families and children then we should try and give a hand up to families who would love to HS but cannot afford to. Perhaps we should be more vocal and push these companies to start such programs. Yes there are free curriculum online but often they still require many literature and other books to implement and the sum of these can be costly as well.

 

I have been on both sides of the spectrum with regards to financial resources in this lifetime. There was a time when I had the resources to buy new books and consumables without monetary concern but in one of lifes turns things changed and we no longer have the financial comfort we used to (not meaning that we were affluent in any way just comfortable and not squeezed to near choking). Now things are so tight we cannot afford the curriculum plans we desire for our children and often have to set our sights lower which is painful because among the many reasons we hs is to give our children an education that fits their style and that can challenge them in ways that schools often don't. My girls are bright and love to learn and often want to learn things that are not standard core subjects. Currently we cannot afford to add those to our budget when we can't even afford the basic books. So I am going to buy used as much as I can and I am not going to worry whether it was copied or not by the seller etc because I need to save $ if I want to keep hsing. If something I have can be resold I am also going to sell it to try and get my dd's next books. I can completely understand the need to share, sell and maybe reproduce to resell in order to afford hsing (mostly share because that is the one that is really cost effective for those that are on truly tight budgets). Again I have not done it but cannot say the thought has not crossed my mind as I look at curriculum online and think about how I would love to use them but cannot afford it. That said if someone has to pay for photocopies then it hardly is a savings to do so for the purpose of reselling. The cost of copies alone is going to be more expensive than the consumable (at least by my calculations) unless you have your own copy machine or a huge family and the possible selling price for even a like new consumable is going to be much less than the new cost so really it makes little sense to do this and I cannot figure out then why one would.

 

This thread has also opened my eyes as to the possibility of what buyers are thinking when they look at For Sale posts. I am actually selling a couple workbooks I never used and have found it very difficult to sell them. Now I wonder if people think I copied them and am selling them "consumed" in that way and not actually like new. It had never occured to me that they might think that because I did not copy them but now I wonder if I should state that they are new never used or copied to make them less questionable for buyers. But then if they think a person possibly copied them to resell would they trust their word as to not having done so? I mean if they think a person might be unethical (stealing by copying to resell) in one respect why would they not be unethical (lying) in another.

 

My personal solution to all this would be to have more e-book consumables that have PHP type copyright allowing copies within families and with reasonable pricing since all the printing and overhead costs is taken out. I have not seen any of those though and most the hsing e-books I have seen do not give previews for me to know if it would be a good fit for us. Being on a tight budget I won't risk buying an e-book if I cannot get a good preview of it especially since e-books in my experience cannot be resold whether consumable or not.

 

This is just my personal opinion after reading the first 14 pages of this thread. I could not finish all 26 pages, my eyes could not take anymore.

[Mrs Mungo]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to comment anyway.

 

What about people who purchase a workbook and then do not use it in any way, because that particular book wasn't useful to them after all (for whatever reason)? Would it still be illegal to resell or give it away?

 

I think it still depends upon what the copyright notice says. For example, I have a Spelling Workout workbook for sale on the for sell board right now. I'm selling several Teacher's Editions, but only one workbook because I purchased an extra by mistake. The notice in the front says I can't reproduce it (and I haven't), but doesn't say I can't re-sell it.

 

Likewise, we've used Writing Strands, but I made my kids write the stuff out by hand. The book doesn't say you can't re-sell it and I don't think it's legally or morally wrong to sell it when we're done because I haven't reproduced it (because it says I can't). The SOTW AG says you cannot reproduce it and I haven't. I purchased the student pages from PHP, my AG is therefore whole and I wouldn't hesitate to re-sell it. I paid for extra pages so that I did not consume the originals. I don't think that is a moral dilemma.

 

On the other hand, I have a set of "Mastering Mathematics" that I never used (the WHOLE set). It actually *specifically* says that you can reproduce it for your family but you *may not* resell it.

 

Copyright is copyright, though. If Evan Moor, for example, says that the teacher may copy for his classroom only, reselling the book would be a violation of copyright. I'm saying it doesn't matter if one homeschooler buying it at a yard sale makes much of a difference or not, because the law is still being violated.

 

It says you may reproduce it for your classroom, it does not say you may not re-sell it (looking at the notice inside an Evan-Moor book right now). I actually think this is the one with the biggest question mark, for me.

[Mom in High Heels]

I read through a lot of this thread and I got to thinking about used workbooks on major sites like Amazon and went to look them up. Guess what? There are thousands of USED workbooks for sale. Look up any workbook and there is an option to buy used. Amazon is a HUGE corporation. If there's a real issue with this shouldn't they be stopping this too?

[RahRah]

 

What a brain-bender !

 

If I buy a workbook -- a workbook which specifies clearly that one or more copies may be made for my personal, home use ONLY -- maybe I end up copying the pages to have one "new" workbook. My child writes in this copy. Now I have the "unused" original. The question from you, I think, is whether I appropriately (legally?) may sell the originally-purchased workbook (the pages of which are clean and never written on).

 

 

Copyright law does not restrict the owner of a copy from reselling legitimately obtained copies of copyrighted works, provided that those copies were originally produced by or with the permission of the copyright holder. It is important to note that the first-sale doctrine permits the transfer of the particular legitimate copy involved. It does not permit making or distributing additional copies. So in your example above, yes, you had permission to copy the workbook and use the copies; yes, you own a legitimate unused workbook; so yes, you can sell the workbook without being in violation of the copyright.

[Wheres Toto]

Wow, this is quite the discussion. I never really thought about these issues but I'm also just starting out and have never sold any curriculum. I have made copies of workbooks (Evan Moor stuff mostly and I pull out the pages/remove the binding to do it so couldn't resell anyway) since its easier for my little guys not to work in an actual book. For the most part, I buy ebooks and just print out the pages I'm using as I need them. I guess whenever I buy a "workbook" I assume that I wouldn't be reselling it.

 

Here's a question - I bought the SOTW1 activity guide. I dislike copying out of a large book (too time consuming, too expensive) and I have two little children doing SOTW this year. My younger one obviously isn't going to do the maps, etc. "for real" but I will give them to her to color/scribble on as we go along. We will probably use SOTW1 again in 4 years with harder books, more supplementation, etc. (My younger one will only be 7 then). Since I don't want to copy out of the book and I anticipate using the pages a lot within my family - I also purchased the electronic student pages. Since I actually purchased both the hard copy activity guide and the separate student pages, when we are done using this (in 5-6 years :D) would it be okay to sell the hard copy activity guide?

 

I guess I'm not asking legally since that's been pretty well explained at this point. I'm asking more ethically since the two aren't always the same.

Edited June 11, 2010 by dottieanna29

[melissel]

Since I actually purchased both the hard copy activity guide and the separate student pages, when we are done using this (in 5-6 years :D) would it be okay to sell the hard copy activity guide?

 

I guess I'm not asking legally since that's been pretty well explained at this point. I'm asking more ethically since the two aren't always the same.

 

I would say yes, because you have permission to make as many copies of the student pages for use within your own family. If you bought an extra resource of student pages, you had no need of the versions in the activity guide, so you never "used" them. Instead, you paid for a separate set. I'd be comfortable with reselling the guide in your case.

[Cammie]

Ok, I have not read all 24 pages of this thread...but here is some interesting information if it wasn't already posted.

 

 

The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C.§ 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule."

Copyright, as the name suggests, is the right to copy a work of some form. If one resells or gives as a gift a book (or CD or DVD) that one has bought, a new copy has not been made, therefore it is legal under US copyright law.

With reference to trade in tangible merchandise, such as the retailing of goods bearing a trademark, the "first sale" rule serves to immunize a reseller from infringement liability. Such protection to the reseller extends to the point where said goods have not been altered so as to be materially different from those originating from the trademark owner.

[Capt_Uhura]

I spoke with a lawyer friend very quickly and need to converse more with him on this point but if I explained it correctly to him, he said that if you buy a workbook, make copies to use, you're free to sell the workbook. You can't buy a book, make copies of it, then sell the copies. Unless of course the author states otherwise. I looked at GWG, it states that you can't photocopy any part of the book, period. So I would assume from that, that I can not legally make copies for my next DC. Not that I would want to mind you....pain in the bohonkus and doesn't save any money. But I do have some $5 Wal-mart preK workbooks where we did it orally and I've used the same workbook w/ all 3 of my kids. I haven't checked the copyright on those to see if that was legal or not. Hhhhmmmm. THis might be an issue where copyright law has not caught up with the homeschool community.

 

I do appreciate Peace Hill Press and SWB allowing me to make copies of WWE for my own family's use. I will recycle the teacher book which I had bound separately from the student pages when I'm finished w/ my 3 kids. I would feel uncomfortable selling the teacher pages once the student pages have been consumed even though the purchaser then has to go buy the student pages separately. I have altered the book from it's original, saleable condition. What is Peace Hill Press's official policy on this? Folks do sell the teacher's manual for RS but it is sold separately from the student pages so I don't have any issue with that.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Capt_Uhura

[FairProspects]

I'm confused about this. I always thought that if a workbook is a consumable item (SOTW AGs, WWE) and I choose to purchase the PDFs to save myself the copying, that it is still illegal to sell the original under copyright terms. Technically, it is still a consumable item, and my family has consumed it (albeit in a different manner that saved me some work). Just because we didn't write in it, doesn't mean we didn't consume it. You can consume the information & booklists which are the author's work for which you paid, without using the activity sheets.

 

The author has graciously given permission to copy for immediate family only and has expressly stated that you may not copy to resell. So regardless of how I copy for my family (whether manually or by printing by PDF), I may not resell. Just my take on it, from an area with a lot of copyright lawyers (Microsoft land :)).

 

Now if I somehow ended up with 2 copies, or I bought one intending to use it but never did, I would have no qualms selling it. However, if I mined the info and printed out the activity sheets for our family, the item is "consumed" and not resellable.

Edited June 11, 2010 by FairProspects

[Lovedtodeath]

I spoke with a lawyer friend very quickly and need to converse more with him on this point but if I explained it correctly to him, he said that if you buy a workbook, make copies to use, you're free to sell the workbook. You can't buy a book, make copies of it, then sell the copies.

Okay, how about I buy a movie or video game, make myself a copy and then sell the original? I am pretty sure that is not legal, and it is the same thing.

[elegantlion]

Okay, how about I buy a movie or video game, make myself a copy and then sell the original? I am pretty sure that is not legal, and it is the same thing.

 

I think she may have been meaning a workbook which allows you to copy for individual use. Movies don't even allow that.

[simka2]

Ok, I have not read all 24 pages of this thread...but here is some interesting information if it wasn't already posted.

 

 

The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C.§ 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule."

Copyright, as the name suggests, is the right to copy a work of some form. If one resells or gives as a gift a book (or CD or DVD) that one has bought, a new copy has not been made, therefore it is legal under US copyright law.

With reference to trade in tangible merchandise, such as the retailing of goods bearing a trademark, the "first sale" rule serves to immunize a reseller from infringement liability. Such protection to the reseller extends to the point where said goods have not been altered so as to be materially different from those originating from the trademark owner.

 

 

Thanks for posting this! I get it now!!!

[Mrs Mungo]

Copyright law does not restrict the owner of a copy from reselling legitimately obtained copies of copyrighted works, provided that those copies were originally produced by or with the permission of the copyright holder. It is important to note that the first-sale doctrine permits the transfer of the particular legitimate copy involved. It does not permit making or distributing additional copies. So in your example above, yes, you had permission to copy the workbook and use the copies; yes, you own a legitimate unused workbook; so yes, you can sell the workbook without being in violation of the copyright.

 

Ok, I have not read all 24 pages of this thread...but here is some interesting information if it wasn't already posted.

 

 

The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C.§ 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule."

Copyright, as the name suggests, is the right to copy a work of some form. If one resells or gives as a gift a book (or CD or DVD) that one has bought, a new copy has not been made, therefore it is legal under US copyright law.

With reference to trade in tangible merchandise, such as the retailing of goods bearing a trademark, the "first sale" rule serves to immunize a reseller from infringement liability. Such protection to the reseller extends to the point where said goods have not been altered so as to be materially different from those originating from the trademark owner.

 

In other words, I can make copies of a book that allows me to make copies (recognizing the fact that not all of them do) and then sell it (assuming the author has not stated that it may not be resold), but, the person who buys the book may not make copies?

 

I'm confused about this. I always thought that if a workbook is a consumable item (SOTW AGs, WWE) and I choose to purchase the PDFs to save myself the copying, that it is still illegal to sell the original under copyright terms. Technically, it is still a consumable item, and my family has consumed it (albeit in a different manner that saved me some work). Just because we didn't write in it, doesn't mean we didn't consume it. You can consume the information & booklists which are the author's work for which you paid, without using the activity sheets.

 

The author has graciously given permission to copy for immediate family only and has expressly stated that you may not copy to resell. So regardless of how I copy for my family (whether manually or by printing by PDF), I may not resell. Just my take on it, from an area with a lot of copyright lawyers (Microsoft land :)).

 

Now if I somehow ended up with 2 copies, or I bought one intending to use it but never did, I would have no qualms selling it. However, if I mined the info and printed out the activity sheets for our family, the item is "consumed" and not resellable.

 

How are these two things different in your opinion: buying a workbook that you don't use and buying an extra set of student sheets so that you don't use the originals?

 

Okay, how about I buy a movie or video game, make myself a copy and then sell the original? I am pretty sure that is not legal, and it is the same thing.

 

I think the discussion is surrounding workbooks that allow for copying in the first place. It's only analogous to movies/games if they forbid any copying.

[jujsky]

Evan Moor makes things for PS teachers and sell massive amounts. Their profit & pricing already acknowledges that issue. Homeschool specific companies do not calculate resell factor into their cost because their volume is so low.

 

I'm specifically talking about small homeschool companies that make homeschool curricula... Peace Hill Press for example, another is Bluedorns, Eagle Wings... there are many other small businesses that make homeschool specific curricula.

 

These are the people being screwing and taken advantage of.

 

So by this logic, stealing from someone who is rich wouldn't matter because they have lots of money, but you should never steal from someone who is poor. That argument is flawed.

 

Personally, I agree with the poster who said once she buys it, it's hers to do with as she likes. My friends & I lend Evan Moor books to each other all the time, copy what we want, and pass them on. We're not making any money off of these books, but the company is losing money (there are books I would have bought if my friend didn't already have them).

[Mrs Mungo]

So by this logic, stealing from someone who is rich wouldn't matter because they have lots of money, but you should never steal from someone who is poor. That argument is flawed.

 

Personally, I agree with the poster who said once she buys it, it's hers to do with as she likes. My friends & I lend Evan Moor books to each other all the time, copy what we want, and pass them on. We're not making any money off of these books, but the company is losing money (there are books I would have bought if my friend didn't already have them).

 

The thing with companies like Evan-Moor is that they are designed to be used for classrooms of kids. If you pass it around to a few different kids, you probably still aren't copying the number of pages that a public school teacher would copy. I think *that* is the reason people are seeing it as being distinct from homeschool companies, where the consumables are intended to be used by one family.

[Care]

Okay, how about I buy a movie or video game, make myself a copy and then sell the original? I am pretty sure that is not legal, and it is the same thing.

 

As I understand it from the legislation (and via the still in business resale markets at Amazon, Electronics Boutique, and other such), if you buy a movie, you are within rights to sell the movie. Same with CDs and video games. You are completely within your rights to sell that movie, game, CD, whatever. The illegal act was the copying, not the reselling. The original is perfectly legal to sell. The violation is in the illegal copy, not the legal resale.

[Lovedtodeath]

Backup copies are not allowed? My son destroys a copy every month.:glare:

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I am not reading ALL THESE REPLIES, so maybe this has been said, but does it really save money? Copy ink is expensive! (atleast mine is!)

[StartingOver]

I see it as stealing. If I buy a workbook and use it, or copy it without writing in it for both of my children to use under the copyright permissions, I will not them give it away or sell it.

 

Example, I have SOTW, SOTW Activity Guide, and I bought the student pages. I will use the SOTW when I read it but it isn't consumable to me, it can be sold.

 

The Activity Guide to me is like my teachers guide, I consider it consumable because some of the pages in it are ment to be used. It expressly says on page v.

 

Families: You may make as many photocopies of the maps and other student pages as you need for use within your own family only.

 

Photocopying the pages so that the book can then be resold is a violation of the copyright.

 

I would say if you purchase the student pages and never copy any of the activity book, it could be sold. But I wouldn't do it. I appreciate the small previous homeschooling parents who take their time to make my life easier. Maybe years ago many of us bought public school text books for way more money ! I love the new options, I won't chance it.

 

I will save all of the curriculum I purchase for the use of my grandchildren. They will get the SOTW book, Only. It is just the right thing to do !

 

If I buy a set like HWWOT and never use it, just look through it. Then I would sell it, and did. But If I teach from it, I feel obligated to go by the copyright.

Edited June 11, 2010 by alatexan68

[Care]

Backup copies are not allowed? My son destroys a copy every month.:glare:

 

Depends. Legally speaking? No, the companies have things locked down tight. No additional copies may be made of their discs. I try not to go into my personal thoughts on the matter. :)