Annoyed with copyright

[Corraleno]

I think some people are getting confused here. It is not illegal to sell used books. It is just illegal to sell consumables (i.e. workbooks/worktexts) that have been consumed.

 

This is incorrect. You are allowed to "use" a book and resell it, whether it is "consumable" or not. You can resell workbooks, even if they have been used or written in, just as you can sell textbooks, even if they have been used or written in. You just can't photocopy books (consumable or not), if that is prohibited by the publisher.

 

-if money's tight (and you want to take the time), save the workbook for the youngest and have the others write it on a separate sheet of paper. I do expect the original purchase to be used once, though. Otherwise you really are stealing, IMHO.

With all due respect, while that may be your opinion, it is certainly not the law. As long as buyers do not photocopy your work without permission they are definitely not "stealing" anything. They can resell the workbooks regardless of whether they have been used, written in or not.

 

Part of the copyright issue has to do with "mechanical means." Printing, on the part of a publisher, is a costly endeavor because you pay the printer to reproduce words on paper. If you have your child answer the questions on their own notebook paper and then sell the book, of course no one is going to come after you...it's like borrowing a book from the library and then copying out parts of it by hand. But using a photocopier to circumvent the purchase of another copy uses mechanical means to deprive the publisher of a sale.

SWB

 

Exactly. It's not "use" of the book that's at issue (e.g. writing answers on separate paper), it's the photocopying. It's perfectly legal to resell "used" books, CDs, DVDs, etc. under the "first sale doctrine."

 

I didn't realize the copyright laws were so different from book to book, or publisher to publisher; and will admit that it is confusing to me.

 

Copyright law does not vary from publisher to publisher; certain publishers may grant the purchaser specific additional rights (e.g. to make copies within the family, or for a single classroom), but the law itself does not change.

 

What about e-books? If I buy an e-book IG and print it out for my own use, can I sell the printed book (If I get rid of the file?) Can I send the file and/or the printed book to someone else as long as I don't keep a copy?

 

No, you cannot resell ebooks under US copyright law. The "First Sale Doctrine" establishes the right of a purchaser to resell the material object which contains the copyrighted content, without permission from the copyright holder. However, in the case of downloaded digital material such as an ebook, audiobook or mp3 file, there is no "material object" for you to resell. A digital file is basically just "content" and that is the copyrighted part. Now, if you buy the printed version of an ebook (printed by, or with permission from, the copyright holder for the purposes of sale) then you can resell that, just as you can resell a physical CD or DVD. But you can't print it yourself and sell the copy, just as you can't sell copies (or originals) of downloaded audio/music/video files.

 

Jackie

(who used to work in publishing)

[Corraleno]

Asta, thanks for this link. I actually bookmarked it. It is very concise and clear about what is allowed and not allowed - in very easy to understand language.

 

Just to be clear, the guidelines on that website are just that: guidelines. I assume they are based on case law and various legal interpretations of "fair use," and as such they are quite useful. But the actual law does not specify numbers of pages or chapters or anything like that. Here is the section of law regarding "fair use":

 

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

 

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#109

 

Jackie

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you Jackie.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

This is incorrect. You are allowed to "use" a book and resell it, whether it is "consumable" or not. You can resell workbooks, even if they have been used or written in, just as you can sell textbooks, even if they have been used or written in. You just can't photocopy books (consumable or not), if that is prohibited by the publisher.

 

 

 

Yes, this is correct. That is what I meant. I should have said: It is just illegal to sell consumables (i.e. workbooks/worktexts) that have been "consumed" in the form of copying them with the intent of selling them.

 

Thanks for pointing out my error. :D

[Corraleno]

I just read the copyright notices in the front of several consumable/reproducible materials that I have and wanted to clarify a few things, especially since the issue of reproducing & reselling Evan-Moore materials was specifically raised.

 

The copyright notice in the front of Evan-Moor History Pockets states:

Permission in hereby granted to the individual purchaser to reproduce student materials in this book for noncommercial individual or classroom use only. Permission is not granted for school-wide or system-wide reproduction of materials

Since the "first sale doctrine" does not give the copyright holder the right to control any subsequent sale beyond the first one, only the right to control reproduction of the material, I would interpret this to mean that EACH individual purchaser has the right to reproduce the materials for his or her classroom (whether that is a PS class, a homeschool coop class, or an individual family). Once the original "individual purchaser" has finished with the materials, there does not seem to be any prohibition against selling the materials to another "individual purchaser," who would then have the same rights of reproduction. (The copyright notice in the front of Teacher Created Materials is virtually identical, and I would apply the same interpretation.)

 

Therefore I do not believe there is anything illegal or unethical about reselling these materials AFTER you have finished with them. I do think that making copies, filing them away for future use, and then reselling the materials for someone else to copy, is not within the rights granted by the publisher (since you would have multiple "classes" using the material simultaneously) and would constitute copyright infringement.

 

By contrast, the notice in the front of my Singapore Math workbooks specifically prohibits all reproduction. Now, this is subject to the "fair use" doctrine, which means you have the right to copy a few pages for personal use if you want to, but not the whole book or big chunks of it. So if someone copied the whole workbook, used the copy, and resold the original, then the copying would be copyright infringement (although the sale would not). On the other hand, if you had your child write the answers separately, or use an overlay, or even write lightly in the book and then erase it, and then resold the workbook, there is nothing either illegal or unethical about that.

 

Homeschool publishers who grant the right for the purchaser to make copies for their individual family would *legally* (I believe) fall into the first category. That is, if they grant permission to make copies within a family, then any family who owns that material has the same rights, since the publisher does not have the right to prevent you from reselling the material. However, I think this is almost certainly not the intent of a small publisher, who is just trying to help out homeschooling families. So whether purchasers of curriculum materials with this particular arrangement choose to follow the strict letter of the law or the intent of the publisher would be a matter of individual conscience.

 

I would point out that publishers who want to allow families to make copies, but not allow resale of the material itself, can solve this problem (legally if not practically -- people will still "cheat") by providing the material in ebook form.

 

Jackie

[Lovedtodeath]

I would point out that publishers who want to allow families to make copies, but not allow resale of the material itself, can solve this problem (legally if not practically -- people will still "cheat") by providing the material in ebook form.

 

But doesn't that raises problems as well, because then it is about the same as telling someone that they can't resell it, like Winterpromise?:001_huh:

 

I am really trying to figure out how best to serve a customer base.

[melissel]

So, what is the conclusion about what we should do with materials that we did decide to photocopy for whatever reason? In my case, I'm thinking specifically of our spiral-bound RightStart worksheet book and my SOTW activity guide student pages. I photocopy the RS sheets because we revisit some of them periodically, so I don't want to take the originals out of commission. And my SOTW AG is an older version, yellowing and a bit beat up (yes, I'm a sucker for fresh white pages :rolleyes:). What should I do with those when I'm done? Recycle them? That just about breaks my heart, though I can see where it would be the only fair thing to do. I'd be happy to donate them, but I don't see how that's better for publishers.

 

What has everyone decided to do with their "unconsumed" consumables?

[Corraleno]

But doesn't that raises problems as well, because then it is about the same as telling someone that they can't resell it, like Winterpromise?:001_huh:

 

I am really trying to figure out how best to serve a customer base.

 

You can't prevent people from cheating, but at least the law is on your side in terms of prohibiting the sale of digital material. And it may be much more difficult for someone to list an ebook for sale, if everyone knows this is illegal, vs reselling printed material, where there is no way to know if the seller illegally copied the work or not -- and publishers cannot, by law, prevent someone from reselling a book they *bought* from the publisher.

 

Some publishers (like Calvert) and most software companies try to get around this by using "leasing" or "licensing" agreements, but recently some judges have ruled that if a company transfers material goods to a user (e.g. software on CDrom), for a single payment, with no intention of ever getting the item back, then that constitutes a sale and is subject to the "first sale doctrine." That's a really murky area of law right now.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

So, what is the conclusion about what we should do with materials that we did decide to photocopy for whatever reason? In my case, I'm thinking specifically of our spiral-bound RightStart worksheet book and my SOTW activity guide student pages. I photocopy the RS sheets because we revisit some of them periodically, so I don't want to take the originals out of commission. And my SOTW AG is an older version, yellowing and a bit beat up (yes, I'm a sucker for fresh white pages :rolleyes:). What should I do with those when I'm done? Recycle them? That just about breaks my heart, though I can see where it would be the only fair thing to do. I'd be happy to donate them, but I don't see how that's better for publishers.

 

What has everyone decided to do with their "unconsumed" consumables?

 

If your SOTW AG is old and yellow and you want "fresh white pages," maybe you should buy a new copy. :)

 

Giving away the old copies of your RS worksheets and SOTW AG would not be illegal, but photocopying entire books without permission certainly is. You don't need to destroy the originals but you should at least consider destroying the illegal copies.

 

Jackie

[melissel]

If your SOTW AG is old and yellow and you want "fresh white pages," maybe you should buy a new copy. :)

 

Giving away the old copies of your RS worksheets and SOTW AG would not be illegal, but photocopying entire books without permission certainly is. You don't need to destroy the originals but you should at least consider destroying the illegal copies.

 

Jackie

 

Huh? Who said I don't have permission? Both books state that the owner may make copies for use with one child and/or for use within one family. That's what I'm doing. And why on earth would I destroy copies of my child's work? I file those for my records.

[hsmom3tn]

Thanks, Jackie, for your clarifications :)

 

I recently found a vocabulary book/curriculum that I liked. I bought the teacher's guide and a student book for my son. I was thinking of going ahead and getting two more student books for my daughters to use in a few years, but the SB's were twice the price of the TG. I couldn't afford to get all of them at once.

 

My question is, will it be illegal/wrong for me to have him write on a separate sheet of paper in order to preserve the original student book so that my girls can use it later?

 

I think this particular issue has been addressed in this thread, but I'm still trying to sort through what is opinion and actual fact about the law. I understand that photocopying it would be illegal.

 

*** editing now to clarify ***

- I don't want to preserve the student book in order to sell it. The last child to use the book would write in it.

Edited June 20, 2009 by hsmom3tn

[Lovedtodeath]

If your SOTW AG is old and yellow and you want "fresh white pages," maybe you should buy a new copy. :)

 

Giving away the old copies of your RS worksheets and SOTW AG would not be illegal, but photocopying entire books without permission certainly is. You don't need to destroy the originals but you should at least consider destroying the illegal copies.

If you copied an entire book for your own use and then sell the original then it is illegal. I personally don't see a problem with giving away outdated materials, but each publisher has different feelings on the matter and if you copied it then it is still technically illegal.

[ekarl2]

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekarl2

-if money's tight (and you want to take the time), save the workbook for the youngest and have the others write it on a separate sheet of paper. I do expect the original purchase to be used once, though. Otherwise you really are stealing, IMHO.

 

 

With all due respect, while that may be your opinion, it is certainly not the law. As long as buyers do not photocopy your work without permission they are definitely not "stealing" anything. They can resell the workbooks regardless of whether they have been used, written in or not.

 

 

Just to be clear, I did say IMHO (in my humble opinion). I never said it was the law. My signature also shows that I am a vendor and I stated that what I was writing was from a vendor's point of view. That's why I said, "I do expect ..." To clarify, though, I should have said, " ... you really are being unethical" as opposed to " .. you really are stealing."

 

It really goes back to checking with a particular vendor if you have a question about your intended use of their materials. They are usually happy to give you any permissions or clarifications you may need. I always appreciate being asked.

 

blessings,

[Mom2boys]

I think that hand copying the materials should ethically count as consumption (with reference to consumables). I think that some are making a distinction between photocopying and hand copying or just answering on paper. Maybe there is a legal distinction between the two scenarios. It seems to me that if you are using and benefiting from the consumable text, whether you run photocopies or not, you should not resell it.

 

I think the ethical course of action, when in doubt, would be to simply contact the publisher and ask if they mind if you use the curriculum in this way. It feels like the right thing to do. What is legal and what is right, of course, are not always synonymous.

 

:iagree:

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

Jumping back in here after a long day, don't have a lot of time and will check the thread again tomorrow...

 

Part of the copyright issue has to do with "mechanical means." Printing, on the part of a publisher, is a costly endeavor because you pay the printer to reproduce words on paper. If you have your child answer the questions on their own notebook paper and then sell the book, of course no one is going to come after you...it's like borrowing a book from the library and then copying out parts of it by hand. But using a photocopier to circumvent the purchase of another copy uses mechanical means to deprive the publisher of a sale.

 

That's hasty. Will be back in the morning.

 

SWB

 

I would think this logic would make it okay to have your first children write out their answers on paper and save the workbook for your last child. Anyone else see it this way?

 

However, I'd still rather just have a workbook for each of them.

[Corraleno]

Huh? Who said I don't have permission? Both books state that the owner may make copies for use with one child and/or for use within one family. That's what I'm doing. And why on earth would I destroy copies of my child's work? I file those for my records.

 

I apologize, I misinterpreted your post. I thought you were saying that since you had made copies, you did not feel you could legally sell/donate the originals since you still had the copies. If the publisher grants permission for the owner to copy them, then you do have the right to sell or give away the books when you're finished with them.

 

If you feel that is somehow unfair to the publisher, then you can destroy them if you choose, or perhaps you could ask the publisher what their preference would be?

 

Jackie

[melissel]

I thought you were saying that since you had made copies, you did not feel you could legally sell/donate the originals since you still had the copies. If the publisher grants permission for the owner to copy them, then you do have the right to sell or give away the books when you're finished with them.

 

Well, technically, yes, that is what I was saying, but the issue is that, per their copyright statements in the books, I have the permission to make as many copies as I see fit for my own personal needs ONLY. For example, if my DD wanted to color a map of ancient Egypt repeatedly, I'm within my rights to copy that page over and over. Similarly, if she's struggling with her math facts, Al Abacus allows me to make several copies of the relevant worksheets just for her use (and I do need to *sigh*).

 

But once my personal use period ends, then what can I do with this perfectly good material that I consumed, but that is still fully usable? I guess I'm raging against the idea of recycling a perfectly good book, but I do value and will abide by copyright laws, so that leaves me with no other real option. I do consider a book that has been somehow worked through but not actually written in to have been consumed. It's a good idea to contact the publishers though, and see if they would object to the usable items going over to Book Samaritan or something. Thanks for that!

[Corraleno]

I would think this logic would make it okay to have your first children write out their answers on paper and save the workbook for your last child. Anyone else see it this way?

 

However, I'd still rather just have a workbook for each of them.

 

You can have your children write their answers on paper, you can have them use page protectors & dry erase markers, you can have them write in the workbook in pencil and then erase it, and you can still sell the workbook when you're done with it. Workbooks are books, and you can use them as you please (except for photocopying large sections of them) and then dispose of them as you please (sell, donate, use for kindling, make paper airplanes, whatever).

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

I guess I'm raging against the idea of recycling a perfectly good book, but I do value and will abide by copyright laws, so that leaves me with no other real option. I do consider a book that has been somehow worked through but not actually written in to have been consumed.

 

This is where I think some of the comments in this thread have misled people -- if you had permission to make copies, you did not violate any copyright laws, and selling the book when you're done with it does not violate copyright laws. If you are uncomfortable with the idea of reselling it after you've used it, then by all means donate it; there is no need (legal or otherwise) to destroy these books.

 

Many people in this thread have drawn a distinction between "consumables" and "nonconsumables" which has nothing to do with copyright law. It doesn't matter if, or how, or how much, you've used a book. If you obtained it legally, then you have the right to give, sell, or dispose of it however you want -- as long as you do not make illegal copies.

 

Jackie

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

Many people in this thread have drawn a distinction between "consumables" and "nonconsumables" which has nothing to do with copyright law. It doesn't matter if, or how, or how much, you've used a book. If you obtained it legally, then you have the right to give, sell, or dispose of it however you want -- as long as you do not make illegal copies.

 

Jackie

 

Provided, of course, the book does not state otherwise somewhere in the book. For example, SOTW AG allows me to make copies within my own family, but if I do that I cannot sell the originals. It specifically says, "You may make as many photocopies of the maps and other Student Pages as you need for use WITHIN YOUR OWN FAMILY ONLY... Photocopying the pages so that the book can then be resold is a violation of copyright." (There is some info in the middle about obtaining separate Student Pages from PHP.)

 

However, I suppose if I purchase the number of copies that I need from PHP and do not use or copy the ones in the back of the book, I could still sell the entire book. The other option would be to use the Student Pages and just sell the first half of the book.

 

This may not be what is said in the actual universal copyright law, but it DOES state it to be the case for this particular book, and in my book, that supercedes the "general" law of the land. If a book does not state otherwise, then I suppose you are right.

 

My best advice: If it says you can make copies within your family or with your own students, you're fine making those copies. If it says you cannot then sell it, don't sell it. If it doesn't specifically say that you are allowed to make copies for your own children, then you are probably in violation of copyright law if you do.

[melissel]

This is where I think some of the comments in this thread have misled people -- if you had permission to make copies, you did not violate any copyright laws, and selling the book when you're done with it does not violate copyright laws. If you are uncomfortable with the idea of reselling it after you've used it, then by all means donate it; there is no need (legal or otherwise) to destroy these books.

 

Many people in this thread have drawn a distinction between "consumables" and "nonconsumables" which has nothing to do with copyright law. It doesn't matter if, or how, or how much, you've used a book. If you obtained it legally, then you have the right to give, sell, or dispose of it however you want -- as long as you do not make illegal copies.

 

Jackie

 

Hmmm, food for thought. I was not looking at it that way, but I see what you're saying. I'll have to consider it some more. I guess I''m thinking that, since I'm essentially copying ALL the pages that one might consume, I'm considering the copy and the original as equivalent. So since I wouldn't copy the pages and sell/give them away to someone else so I could use the original, I also wouldn't copy the pages to use and sell/give away the original. I think you're right, but it's likely a letter of the law/spirit of the law thing for most of us.

 

Pondering...

[Barb_]

Great link. After reading this, it looks to me like it is perfectly fine to buy a workbook, answer the questions orally or on a seperate sheet of paper and then resell the workbook, having never made a copy of it of anykind. Do others see it that way?

 

I also take it to mean that you can make copies of a workbook, if you were inclined to do so, for your own family's use when the copyright specifically spells out that you may, then sell the original but not the copies. Also, it looks like Calvert's prohibitation of resell is also illegal under first sale docrine.

 

Barb

[Mom2boys]

But once my personal use period ends, then what can I do with this perfectly good material that I consumed, but that is still fully usable? I guess I'm raging against the idea of recycling a perfectly good book, but I do value and will abide by copyright laws, so that leaves me with no other real option.

 

I have a suggestion. If you have the space to keep the book/workbook, you could make it available to other homeschoolers who wanted to preview the curriculum, to see if it would be a good fit for their children. I periodically loan out my materials for other people to look over for a few days. And I have borrowed curricula from others for the same reason. (Ideally, I would be able to preview everything at my local homeschool convention, but not everything I want to see is available in the vendor hall.)

 

So, if you created a little lending library, you wouldn't be sending perfectly good books to the recycle bin. And, if a person liked what they saw and purchased a brand new copy of the curriculum that you allowed them to preview, you would be helping homeschool vendors increase their sales. :001_smile:

[Corraleno]

I think that some are making a distinction between photocopying and hand copying or just answering on paper. Maybe there is a legal distinction between the two scenarios. It seems to me that if you are using and benefiting from the consumable text, whether you run photocopies or not, you should not resell it.

 

Why should it matter if someone has "benefited" from the use of a workbook any more than it matters if they have "benefited" from the use of a car or a microwave or a textbook they want to sell? People are allowed to benefit from the things they buy -- that's pretty much the point of buying them. Some students write and highlight on every page of their textbooks, while other students write all their notes separately and keep their textbooks pristine so they can resell them. They're "using" and "benefitting" from the books just as much as the students who write all over them, so is it "unethical" that they're paid more money for their clean textbooks when they sell them?

 

I don't see any difference between that and keeping workbooks pristine by writing answers on a separate piece of paper. For example, about half the content of the Singapore MPH Science workbooks constitutes instructions for experiments and the other half is questions which can be just as easily answered on paper as in the box provided in the workbooks. Similarly, about half of a VFCR workbook is text, and most of the activities are fill-in-the-blank (with a word or a letter) that can easily be done on paper. If a parent with a limited budget chooses to have their child write the answers on paper and then resells the books, why is that any more "unethical" than reselling textbooks?

 

I think the ethical course of action, when in doubt, would be to simply contact the publisher and ask if they mind if you use the curriculum in this way. It feels like the right thing to do. What is legal and what is right, of course, are not always synonymous.

I'm sure the manufacturers of clothing, cars, housewares, electronics, and pretty much all consumer goods would prefer that no one ever buy or sell "used" goods -- but that doesn't make it unethical. If I wanted to sell my current car and buy another one, should I call Honda first and ask them if it's OK? If you want to buy a pair of jeans in Goodwill, do you call Levi-Strauss and ask how they feel about it? If my neighbor wants to sell a bunch of her kids' old DVDs at a yard sale, should she call Disney first and ask if they mind that she's selling DVDs her kids already "consumed" by watching them a million times? I don't understand why people think "workbooks" should be singled out for some special legal status that is not granted to any other consumer goods. :confused:

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Also, it looks like Calvert's prohibitation of resell is also illegal under first sale docrine.

Barb

Calvert gets around this by claiming they are "leasing" the TM not selling it. However, as I noted before, the distinction between a "lease" and a "sale" of material like this is a rather contentious area of law right now, and software companies have sometimes lost cases where material they claimed was "leased" or "licensed" was deemed by the court to have been a sale (and therefore eligible for resale).

 

Jackie

[Peek a Boo]

I don't understand why people think "workbooks" should be singled out for some special legal status that is not granted to any other consumer goods. :confused:

 

Jackie

 

Jackie --your posts have totally rocked :)

 

I would toss in here that many workbooks do NOT give ANY right to copy AT ALL. It's difficult to find a clean 'used' A Beka math workbook, for example. :)

 

I do agree that a big distinction that we keep missing is the difference between use and copyright. Continuing to clarify that this is a COPYright law and not a USE law is important.

As such, answering workbook questions on paper isn't copying anything.

[Barb_]

Calvert gets around this by claiming they are "leasing" the TM not selling it. However, as I noted before, the distinction between a "lease" and a "sale" of material like this is a rather contentious area of law right now, and software companies have sometimes lost cases where material they claimed was "leased" or "licensed" was deemed by the court to have been a sale (and therefore eligible for resale).

 

Jackie

 

I see where you clarified this above now that I've taken the time to read the entire thread. Thank you for sharing your expertise on this thread. Every time this comes up there are things about copyright law that don't ring true for me because intuitively they make no sense. This is the first time all of my questions have been answered logically and to my satisfaction.

 

And for the record, I would have no problem giving away or selling Calvert manuals when I was finished with them. They obviously have no intention of collecting the material when I am finished with it, so the transaction meets the definition of a sale. The fact that they decide to call it something else doesn't mean it meets the legal definition.

 

Barb

[Lovedtodeath]

I am wondering why Calvert and Winterpromise don't just use E-books. Problem solved.

[Whereneverever]

I asked this over on the K-8 forum and wanted more perspective. What about taking pictures of a schedule you've filled out? Someone else's schedule form, your personal plans? Is posting that on a blog copyright violation? What if you include a link to the website of where the form came from?

I'm thinking specifically of donna young's forms. She says it can't be electronically reproduced, but is that what it means?

[Corraleno]

I asked this over on the K-8 forum and wanted more perspective. What about taking pictures of a schedule you've filled out? Someone else's schedule form, your personal plans? Is posting that on a blog copyright violation? What if you include a link to the website of where the form came from?

I'm thinking specifically of donna young's forms. She says it can't be electronically reproduced, but is that what it means?

 

I would think that taking a picture of your own schedule, and posting it as a sample of your own personal plans, crediting the form to donnayoung.org, would not be a problem. No one else can "use" the form that you've filled out, right? I would consider it analogous to posting data in an Excel spreadsheet, or a copy of a graphic organizer filled in with one's own analysis of a novel or whatever.

 

I assume she just doesn't want people distributing and/or taking credit for her forms -- but you can always email and ask her!

 

Jackie

[Whereneverever]

I would think that taking a picture of your own schedule, and posting it as a sample of your own personal plans, crediting the form to donnayoung.org, would not be a problem. No one else can "use" the form that you've filled out, right? I would consider it analogous to posting data in an Excel spreadsheet, or a copy of a graphic organizer filled in with one's own analysis of a novel or whatever.

 

I assume she just doesn't want people distributing and/or taking credit for her forms -- but you can always email and ask her!

 

Jackie

 

 

I've been trying to email her- but her contact button has been down.

Thanks!

[Impish]

But I admit my head is spinning :blushing: Obviously I need more caffeine.

 

As someone who quite often tries to find 2nd hand materials to cut the cost of homeschooling as best I can, I'm finding this whole conversation very confusing. So, if I buy 2nd hand workbooks, I may or may not be violating copyright laws, but buying 2nd hand textbooks, I'm totally safe, right? What if some of the answers in the workbooks have been whited out? The family used the work book for a lesson or 3, discovered that the workbook wasn't for them, and put it aside...would that be ok for me to purchase?

 

Maybe I'll just stick to books 2nd hand...:001_unsure:

[Mom-ninja.]

But I admit my head is spinning :blushing: Obviously I need more caffeine.

 

As someone who quite often tries to find 2nd hand materials to cut the cost of homeschooling as best I can, I'm finding this whole conversation very confusing. So, if I buy 2nd hand workbooks, I may or may not be violating copyright laws, but buying 2nd hand textbooks, I'm totally safe, right? What if some of the answers in the workbooks have been whited out? The family used the work book for a lesson or 3, discovered that the workbook wasn't for them, and put it aside...would that be ok for me to purchase?

 

Maybe I'll just stick to books 2nd hand...:001_unsure:

 

 

Here's what I've decided. Books are fine to resell. Workbooks may not be copied, or resold if they have been used. By used I mean more than just a few lessons, or the work done but just written on paper or sheet protector. If a workbook has not been used because it was decided to not be what was wanted, or doesn't work for the family, I think it's fine to sell.

 

For example I bought the whole set of ETC workbooks. DS has completed to level 3. I have decided to not continue with ETC. I would not sell levels 1-3. I would sell levels 4-6 because I never even opened them.

[Corraleno]

But I admit my head is spinning :blushing: Obviously I need more caffeine.

 

As someone who quite often tries to find 2nd hand materials to cut the cost of homeschooling as best I can, I'm finding this whole conversation very confusing. So, if I buy 2nd hand workbooks, I may or may not be violating copyright laws, but buying 2nd hand textbooks, I'm totally safe, right? What if some of the answers in the workbooks have been whited out? The family used the work book for a lesson or 3, discovered that the workbook wasn't for them, and put it aside...would that be ok for me to purchase?

 

Maybe I'll just stick to books 2nd hand...:001_unsure:

 

The whole debate about "consumables" vs "nonconsumables" at the beginning of this thread is indeed confusing and misleading. The truth is that workbooks do not have any special legal status; they are like any other printed material, and they can be legally bought and sold 2nd hand.

 

Using workbooks by writing on a separate piece of paper, doing the answers orally, using page protectors & markers, or writing in the books and then erasing or whiting out, does not violate copyright in any way, nor does selling them after you've used them. If someone photocopies an entire workbook (or big chunks of it), keeps the copies, and then resells the workbook, then the SELLER has violated copyright law by making the copies. Unless you suspect that the person you're buying from violated the law by making illegal copies, there's no reason not to buy used workbooks.

 

You should not buy "used" ebooks though, as this IS a violation of copyright regardless of whether the seller ever read or "used" the ebook.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Here's what I've decided. Books are fine to resell. Workbooks may not be copied, or resold if they have been used. By used I mean more than just a few lessons, or the work done but just written on paper or sheet protector. If a workbook has not been used because it was decided to not be what was wanted, or doesn't work for the family, I think it's fine to sell.

 

I just wanted to clarify that this is your personal decision/choice about whether or not to resell your workbooks, unrelated to copyright law. It is perfectly legal to resell workbooks that have been used.

 

I just don't want other readers to be confused about what is and isn't legal.

 

Jackie

[Greta]

Thanks, Jackie, for your clarifications :)

 

I recently found a vocabulary book/curriculum that I liked. I bought the teacher's guide and a student book for my son. I was thinking of going ahead and getting two more student books for my daughters to use in a few years, but the SB's were twice the price of the TG. I couldn't afford to get all of them at once.

 

My question is, will it be illegal/wrong for me to have him write on a separate sheet of paper in order to preserve the original student book so that my girls can use it later?

 

I think this particular issue has been addressed in this thread, but I'm still trying to sort through what is opinion and actual fact about the law. I understand that photocopying it would be illegal.

 

*** editing now to clarify ***

- I don't want to preserve the student book in order to sell it. The last child to use the book would write in it.

 

I've read this entire thread with interest, and I *think* I know the answer to your question! :D Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As long as you are simply having him write on another piece of paper and you are not photocopying, I believe that is perfectly legal. A student book or workbook is no different from any other book in this regard. If I purchase a non-fiction history book, and write down some notes of things I want to remember, that's fine. I'm then free to loan the book to a friend, sell it to a used book store, etc. If I didn't photocopy it, I didn't break the law. Same thing for a "consumable" book. The law is no different.

 

Right?

[Lovedtodeath]

I've read this entire thread with interest, and I *think* I know the answer to your question! :D Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As long as you are simply having him write on another piece of paper and you are not photocopying, I believe that is perfectly legal. A student book or workbook is no different from any other book in this regard. If I purchase a non-fiction history book, and write down some notes of things I want to remember, that's fine. I'm then free to loan the book to a friend, sell it to a used book store, etc. If I didn't photocopy it, I didn't break the law. Same thing for a "consumable" book. The law is no different.

 

Right?

Right. A very good explanation. Kudos!

[Greta]

Right. A very good explanation. Kudos!

 

Woohoo! I got it! :D I'm glad for this thread, because I had misunderstood before and thought that consumables were legally different than non-consumables. Since I have only one child, I always have her write in workbooks with no intention of trying to re-use or sell/donate them. So it doesn't change the way I do things, but it's good to know what's legal and what's not. Just in case it ever comes up. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

But I admit my head is spinning :blushing: Obviously I need more caffeine.

 

As someone who quite often tries to find 2nd hand materials to cut the cost of homeschooling as best I can, I'm finding this whole conversation very confusing. So, if I buy 2nd hand workbooks, I may or may not be violating copyright laws, but buying 2nd hand textbooks, I'm totally safe, right? What if some of the answers in the workbooks have been whited out? The family used the work book for a lesson or 3, discovered that the workbook wasn't for them, and put it aside...would that be ok for me to purchase?

 

Maybe I'll just stick to books 2nd hand...:001_unsure:

 

COPYING books is illegal. BUYING them is not. :)

[The Governess]

I just wanted to clarify that this is your personal decision/choice about whether or not to resell your workbooks, unrelated to copyright law. It is perfectly legal to resell workbooks that have been used.

 

I just don't want other readers to be confused about what is and isn't legal.

 

Jackie

 

What if it specifically states in the workbook that copying pages from the workbook with the intent to later resell the workbook violates the copyright?

[Dobela]

What if it specifically states in the workbook that copying pages from the workbook with the intent to later resell the workbook violates the copyright?

They are right. It is the copying of the workbook pages that violates the copyright. Selling the workbook after you have done that is not illegal. It is IMO unethical to resell it after buying it solely for that reason however.

[The Governess]

They are right. It is the copying of the workbook pages that violates the copyright. Selling the workbook after you have done that is not illegal. It is IMO unethical to resell it after buying it solely for that reason however.

 

Got it.

 

I guess another way to look at it is this: most people would agree that it is illegal/unethical to buy a workbook (or ANY book), copy it, and then return it to the vendor you purchased it from. What is the difference between returning it or selling it later as a "used" item?

[Dobela]

Got it.

 

I guess another way to look at it is this: most people would agree that it is illegal/unethical to buy a workbook (or ANY book), copy it, and then return it to the vendor you purchased it from. What is the difference between returning it or selling it later as a "used" item?

 

I don't know how often you are in teacher supply stores, but apparently this is a problem not just with homeschool families. It seems that many teachers were buying books, making a single copy of the book for personal/classroom use, then returning the original for a full refund but keeping the copy. Every teacher supply store in our area now has a sign up stating that due to this problem, they are no longer accepting returns of reproducible workbooks and books.

 

I honestly don't see how someone can actually buy something with the intent copy it, and then return it or resell it. I guess if you return it you will make a bit of money but my paper and ink costs enough that I would make no money doing this. The copy could easily cost the same as the original. Not to mention the time involved in copying some things.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Dobela

[Lovedtodeath]

Got it.

 

I guess another way to look at it is this: most people would agree that it is illegal/unethical to buy a workbook (or ANY book), copy it, and then return it to the vendor you purchased it from. What is the difference between returning it or selling it later as a "used" item?

It is no different as far as I am concerned.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I don't know how often you are in teacher supply stores, but apparently this is a problem not just with homeschool families. It seems that many teachers were buying books, making a single copy of the book for personal/classroom use, then returning the original for a full refund but keeping the copy. Every teacher supply store in our area now has a sign up stating that due to this problem, they are no longer accepting returns of reproducible workbooks and books.

 

I honestly don't see how someone can actually buy something with the intent copy it, and then return it or resell it. I guess if you return it you will make a bit of money but my paper and ink costs enough that I would make no money doing this. The copy could easily cost the same as the original. Not to mention the time involved in copying some things.

 

Most teachers have unlimited, unsupervised access to copiers in the schools so the only thing they have invested in the copies is time.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

What if it specifically states in the workbook that copying pages from the workbook with the intent to later resell the workbook violates the copyright?

 

This is the case with SOTW AG that I brought up.

[asta]

I don't know how often you are in teacher supply stores, but apparently this is a problem not just with homeschool families. It seems that many teachers were buying books, making a single copy of the book for personal/classroom use, then returning the original for a full refund but keeping the copy. Every teacher supply store in our area now has a sign up stating that due to this problem, they are no longer accepting returns of reproducible workbooks and books.

 

I honestly don't see how someone can actually buy something with the intent copy it, and then return it or resell it. I guess if you return it you will make a bit of money but my paper and ink costs enough that I would make no money doing this. The copy could easily cost the same as the original. Not to mention the time involved in copying some things.

 

:iagree:

 

 

a

[Jen+4dc]

After reading through all 25 pages of this thread:), I'm still wondering.

 

I have a lot of respect for those who create HS materials and do NOT want to steal from them. I also greatly appreciate forums like this to get info and discuss ideas. I would never buy a book and then photocopy it with the intent to keep it in "new" condition so I could resell it. IMHO, that's blatantly dishonest. But, like a great number of hsing families, we live on 1 income and a tight budget.

 

So, I think nothing of pulling out the pages of a work book (like logic puzzles) and putting them in plastic sheet protectors so my dc can use and reuse them. Most workbooks (math, spelling, etc) they just write in. But, fun stuff like logic puzzles that they like to do together or separately or over and over I like to put in sheet protectors and use with dry erase pens. I always pull out History Pockets and put them in sheet protectors and then make copies as needed. Before reading this thread I had every intention of selling the original books as "used" when all the dc are done with them (not the logic puzzles that I've pulled out of books and put in sheet protectors, the youngest will probably get to just write on those at some point). Is this wrong? I don't mean illegal, I'm talking more the ethics side of it. I'm wondering what curriculum creators would think of this? If I had to purchase a second set for the kid to do it again because they enjoyed them, chances are it wouldn't happen! That's just not in the budget. But, a book like HP, I think making copies for each of my dc as they use the book is within their copyright standards (1 teacher, 1 class = my family). Should I destroy the book when I finish hsing? That seems like a waste. But, I'd rather recycle it than be dishonest.

 

SWB, if you happen to check back in on this thread, I purchased WWE the textbook plus WWE Level 1 workbook plus an extra set of student pages. I've been using the extra set of student pages right now with ds. My plan is to use the set that came in the workbook itself with my younger dd when she gets to that point. I guess I hadn't thought much about what I would do with the teacher portion when the youngest is done with it. As the creator, would you have a problem with me selling just the teacher portion (as just the teacher portion with not student pages)? When I ask if that would be a problem I don't mean legally, I mean ethically? Would you feel cheated out of a sale? Since you sell the student pages separately I assume that my original intent of using the book with 2 kids (when technically I have purchased two sets of student pages) is fine.

 

Alternatively, if dd gets old enough and we find that the student pages just don't work for us (lines are really big, works for ds but dd has much better fine muscle coordination than he does, even now at ages 7 and 4), so we use the teacher stuff but end up writing on smaller lined pages. That would then leave me with a used WWE Level 1 workbook that still has the student pages unused. How would you then feel about me selling it?

 

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, SWB, you don't have to answer;). I'm just still left wondering after reading the 25 pages of this thread. It seems that apparently the book itself is my property since I purchased it and my extra set of student pages. So, legally, I could probably sell it. But, ethically, I purchased it with no intent to resell. Before reading this thread, I would have thought nothing of just selling it when I'm done with it, if I ended up in a situation where it's fulfilled its usefulness to me. I didn't purchase it with the intent of being dishonest by reselling it, that's just how circumstances worked out. Technically would those consumable student pages (that younger dd did NOT use because they just didn't work for her) be considered used? I never thought this far ahead before reading this thread. We're just getting started on our hs journey and I haven't sold much because I'm saving it for youngers (unless I looked at it and wanted to run the other way, then it's not used, we didn't use it and I've resold it. That strikes me more as browsing at home instead of in the store and kicking myself and losing money for browsing at home instead of in the store:tongue_smilie:).

 

I guess I'm just thinking out loud. I consider myself an honest person, I never intentionally deceive or cheat someone. I have a TON of gratitude and respect for those who provide quality hs materials (as I know I could NEVER hs without them!) I would rather pinch my pennies elsewhere than cheat people or be dishonest. So, what's the solution? Do I just never buy anything used or never sell anything? That doesn't feel right either. Is donation the answer? I know I'm always thrilled to find something I need at the thrift store.

 

Still wondering......

[jplain]

s

In my case, I'm thinking specifically of our spiral-bound RightStart worksheet book and my SOTW activity guide student pages. I photocopy the RS sheets because we revisit some of them periodically, so I don't want to take the originals out of commission.

My opinion is that you've consumed the worksheet portions of the curricula, and should either destroy them or ask the publishers what they'd like you to do with them.

 

If you're talking about the older version of RightStart which has the scripted lessons and the worksheets in one larger spiral bound volume, you could take out the worksheets and sell the manual as-is. The buyer can purchase the worksheets separately.

 

My opinion is similar for the SOTW AG. The photocopying and distribution policy spells it out very clearly, just after the table of contents. It states that you cannot photocopy pages and then resell it. However, the pages can be purchased separately, so in my opinion it would be okay to remove the consumable pages from the book before resale. The buyer could then purchase a new set of the pages, and you will have avoided violating the copyright.

[jplain]

Is this wrong? I don't mean illegal, I'm talking more the ethics side of it.

Yep, this is where I'm getting caught up at the moment.

As a homeschooler, what is the right thing to do?

 

I'm starting to wonder whether there's a kind of Buy Local issue here. If I value these publishers and their products, maybe I should go out of my way to buy products new, even if it requires financial sacrifice. If I don't support them, they may go out of business or be forced to change their business model substantially.*

 

On the other hand, as long as the previous owner has not violated copyright, I'd prefer not to litter the world with more paper when perfectly good copies are available on the used market.

 

Hmmm. Perhaps if it is within my means, I could choose to make a donation to the publisher, to express my support of their work.

 

Or maybe I'm just talking crazy. :tongue_smilie:

 

A little off topic for this thread, but food for thought: last night I was reading about Melissa Wiley's reasons for not writing any more Little House books: link. I'm so bummed that I didn't know of these books in time for my purchasing voice to make a difference. It is making me think I need to be more active about giving product feedback, either with words or dollars.

 

 

 

*An example I can think of off the top of my head is how Five In A Row changed the way their books are distributed, in part because they not going to be able to stay in business if they didn't....