Annoyed with copyright

[Tohru]

I haven't been in here in a long time and was just visiting the For Sale board. I was shocked to find listings for workbooks & consumables that people admitted that they copied and used and were then reselling. I mean, it is one thing to resell a workbook one never used, but to make copies to use just to resell...

 

I am so annoyed that people would copy workbooks and resell them. How does copying to use and then reselling the books honor the small businesses that work hard to offer us homeschool curricula?

 

I thought most homeschool curricula had copyrights giving permission for a single family to make copies for use within their family, but not for multiple families. Is copying to use and then reselling going against the copyright? I see this practice as stealing, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

Any one else have an opinion?

[Nestof3]

I guess the alternative would be to put the workbooks in the recycling bin since giving them away would also violate the copyright?

 

I just always figured I pay for it, I use it, when I am done, I sell it/give it away.

 

I just always imagined a teacher could buy a workbook and use it on 300 students....

[Laurie4b]

I guess the alternative would be to put the workbooks in the recycling bin since giving them away would also violate the copyright?

 

I just always figured I pay for it, I use it, when I am done, I sell it/give it away.

 

I just always imagined a teacher could buy a workbook and use it on 300 students....

 

Yes, that's correct. Recycling bin. If a company gives permission to copy to a family, they cannot then turn around and resell the item--this deprives the company of a legitimate sale. If they didn't give permission for families to make multiple copies for family use, then the workbook would have been consumed, so by allowing copies within a family (a generous thing to do), they shouldn't be penalized. Likewise, if a workbook has a normal copyright in the front , you can't copy even within the family.

 

The prices of consumable materials takes into account the specific nature of the copyright. It is stealing to copy and sell.

[Nestof3]

Yes, that's correct. Recycling bin. If a company gives permission to copy to a family, they cannot then turn around and resell the item--this deprives the company of a legitimate sale. If they didn't give permission for families to make multiple copies for family use, then the workbook would have been consumed, so by allowing copies within a family (a generous thing to do), they shouldn't be penalized. Likewise, if a workbook has a normal copyright in the front , you can't copy even within the family.

 

The prices of consumable materials takes into account the specific nature of the copyright. It is stealing to copy and sell.

 

Wow - I never really thought it through that far.

 

So, I guess one would never buy an Evan Moor workbook from a teacher yardsale either.

[Tohru]

Wow - I never really thought it through that far.

 

So, I guess one would never buy an Evan Moor workbook from a teacher yardsale either.

 

Evan Moor makes things for PS teachers and sell massive amounts. Their profit & pricing already acknowledges that issue. Homeschool specific companies do not calculate resell factor into their cost because their volume is so low.

 

I'm specifically talking about small homeschool companies that make homeschool curricula... Peace Hill Press for example, another is Bluedorns, Eagle Wings... there are many other small businesses that make homeschool specific curricula.

 

These are the people being screwing and taken advantage of.

[flyingmommy]

Ok, what do you think of this scenario? If I bought a workbook, say Rod & Staff, and had my child answer the questions on paper instead of in the workbook. If I then sold the unused (and also uncopied) workbook, do you think that would be a copyright violation?

 

This is a very interesting thread. I think copyright violation is something people don't take seriously at all. On the one hand, if I buy something, it really ought to be mine to do with as I please. On the flip side, companies-large and small-lose a great deal of money from copyright violation.

 

Jeannie

[Orthodox6]

At first I thought you referred to copying a workbook -- and selling the copy. Then I decided that you mean copying a workbook, keeping the copy -- and selling the original workbook. Is that what you mean?

 

What a brain-bender !

 

If I buy a workbook -- a workbook which specifies clearly that one or more copies may be made for my personal, home use ONLY -- maybe I end up copying the pages to have one "new" workbook. My child writes in this copy. Now I have the "unused" original. The question from you, I think, is whether I appropriately (legally?) may sell the originally-purchased workbook (the pages of which are clean and never written on).

 

You include a side-winder that some people do this, knowing from the beginning that they intend to resell the original volume after "slicing off" a personal copy. Perhaps people do act in this manner. If true, I readily admit surprise and disappointment. I would not do this as a "planned" act. I tend toward the "stricter" interpretation of some issues, and this practice, for me, would be "morally suspect."

 

Whether this is legal or not, I cannot say. In the case of software, publishers often have protection built in. A single copy of software, for example, can be installed on only one computer (sometimes two). Subsequent installations will fail. Why? because the publisher expects a new user to acquire his own copy and his own license for personal use.

 

I don't remember what product(s) have this "rule"; however, I have seen some printed curricular items which stipulate that the purchaser may make "up to X number of copies for personal/home use". (So no, the teacher may not reproduce the workbook for 300 students !) Bundle pricing for classroom use is the option offered for larger groups of students.

 

Calvert Homeschool articulates the most absurd point of view I ever have encountered. The teacher manuals "are leased" from Calvert, and legally belong to the company ! :blink:

 

Selling used books does not seem -- in universal practice -- to violate copyright. When a family sells a bag of no longer wanted books to, say, "Half-Price Books", the sale is a straightforward transaction which breaks no law. Family A selling used curricula to Family B seems equally to break no law. This, however, refers to books (including textbooks), rather than workbooks.

 

If an individual does what I think you are discussing as a deliberate plan to resell an original workbook at the original price, I can't think well of that perspective.

 

P.S. Several posts went on-board while I was drafting this one. As I think about the "recycle bin" and "yardsale" observations, it occurs to me that the very act of photocopying a workbook could be construed as "an act of consumption" of a "consumable" workbook. Therefore, the original workbook should not be resold. . . . But -- ?!?!?!

 

(I need to go back to library school for a refresher course in intellectual property law !)

Edited June 17, 2009 by Orthodox6
to clarify previously ambiguous phrases

[Melinda in VT]

Ok, what do you think of this scenario? If I bought a workbook, say Rod & Staff, and had my child answer the questions on paper instead of in the workbook. If I then sold the unused (and also uncopied) workbook, do you think that would be a copyright violation?

 

Yes. Your child *did* use the workbook, he just didn't write in it. But he used the questions.

[Laurie4b]

At first I thought you referred to copying a workbook -- and selling the copy. Then I decided that you mean copying a workbook, keeping the copy -- and selling the original workbook. Is that what you mean?

 

What a brain-bender !

 

If I buy a workbook -- a workbook which specifies clearly that one or more copies may be made for my personal, home use ONLY -- maybe I end up copying the pages to have one "new" workbook. My child writes in this copy. Now I have the "unused" original. The question from you, I think, is whether I appropriately (legally?) may sell the originally-purchased workbook (the pages of which are clean and never written on).

 

You include a side-winder that some people do this, knowing from the beginning that they intend to resell the original volume after "slicing off" a personal copy. Perhaps people do act in this manner. If true, I readily admit surprise and disappointment. I would not do this as a "planned" act. I tend toward the "stricter" interpretation of some issues, and this practice, for me, would be "morally suspect."

 

Whether this is legal or not, I cannot say. In the case of software, publishers often have protection built in. A single copy of software, for example, can be installed on only one computer (sometimes two). Subsequent installations will fail. Why? because the publisher expects a new user to acquire his own copy and his own license for personal use.

 

I don't remember what product(s) have this "rule"; however, I have seen some printed curricular items which stipulate that the purchaser may make "up to X number of copies for personal/home use". (So no, the teacher may not reproduce the workbook for 300 students !) Bundle pricing for classroom use is the option offered for larger groups of students.

 

Calvert Homeschool articulates the most absurd point of view I ever have encountered. The teacher manuals "are leased" from Calvert, and legally belong to the company ! :blink:

 

Selling used books does not seem -- in universal practice -- to violate copyright. When a family sells a bag of no longer wanted books to, say, "Half-Price Books", the sale is a straightforward transaction which breaks no law. Family A selling used curricula to Family B seems equally to break no law.

 

If an individual does what I think you are discussing as a deliberate plan to resell an original book at the original price, I can't think well of that perspective.

 

I think it's illegal, not just unethical--whether that was your original intent or not.

 

 

The difference between books and workbooks is that the workbooks are manufactured with the agreement that they are consumable (or consumable within a family, or only for one teacher's class,etc.) Books are not consumable and so may be sold legally second-hand. It's similar to software.

[secular_mom]

What about people who purchase a workbook and then do not use it in any way, because that particular book wasn't useful to them after all (for whatever reason)? Would it still be illegal to resell or give it away?

[flyingmommy]

Yes. Your child *did* use the workbook, he just didn't write in it. But he used the questions.

 

 

Good answer. That's why I asked. That's kinda what I thought, too. I guess "used" and "consumed" aren't really the same thing.

 

Another thing I don't get....why would anyone copy an entire workbook? The copy fees and/or ink and paper costs would far outweigh the cost of buying a new workbook! Not to mention the time factor.

 

Jeannie

[TravelingChris]

I honor people's copyright and this is a big issue in our family. My dh, and both dd and I are very strong on the copyright thing. I think that stealing is stealing. I was very disappointed a number of years ago when I received a photocopied Lyrical Life Sciences. How dishonest. I do have the Calvert manuals and will not give them away or resell them. I will throw them away when I don't want them. It was my agreement with the company and I will honor that. I give away or sell items that I am allowed to. I certainly never copy workbooks and sell those copies or sell the original. That is plain dishonesty and stealing.

[secular_mom]

Another thing I don't get....why would anyone copy an entire workbook? The copy fees and/or ink and paper costs would far outweigh the cost of buying a new workbook! Not to mention the time factor.

 

Jeannie

 

I agree. It's much easier for me, to just have a new workbook for each child.

I've considered having the oldest answer the questions in a notebook, so that the youngers could re-use the workbook, but that really seems unnecessary. I guess I would do that, if we were REALLY strapped for cash.

[ChristusG]

I have honestly never even begun to fathom any of that stuff. So if I purchase a curriculum and use it for the school year, I'm just supposed to throw away a perfectly good curriculum when I am finished?

 

Or is it just workbook type things? I copy workbooks at times because they are easier to use than trying to get the book to lie open flat to work in. So then technically, I'm supposed to toss a great book after I'm finished with it. Seems like such a waste to me.

 

But it has seriously never even crossed my mind.

[Orthodox6]

I've concluded that we are focusing on workbooks because they are "consumable", and are not concerned about books (which are not).

 

I genuinely do not perceive any problem, legally or morally, with selling books (as defined above), or with giving them away gratis.

 

(. . . and I persist in considering Calvert's requirement ludicrous. Anybody who has purchased their course materials for pre-K and for K, has received the flimsiest, most Mickey-Mouse ever, bleed-though-the-cheap-paper xeroxes of copyright materials ! )

[JudoMom]

Evan Moor makes things for PS teachers and sell massive amounts. Their profit & pricing already acknowledges that issue. Homeschool specific companies do not calculate resell factor into their cost because their volume is so low.

 

I'm specifically talking about small homeschool companies that make homeschool curricula... Peace Hill Press for example, another is Bluedorns, Eagle Wings... there are many other small businesses that make homeschool specific curricula.

 

These are the people being screwing and taken advantage of.

 

I think if you're going to be annoyed with one, you should be annoyed with both big and small businesses getting "screwed". Either the copyright issue bothers you or it doesn't.

[Renee in NC]

I agree. It's much easier for me, to just have a new workbook for each child.

I've considered having the oldest answer the questions in a notebook, so that the youngers could re-use the workbook, but that really seems unnecessary. I guess I would do that, if we were REALLY strapped for cash.

 

I actually calculated it and I can make a one page copy for .03, which is generally much less then the cost of buying 3 of the same workbook. Many workbooks allow for copying within the family.

[Stacie]

Wow - I never really thought it through that far.

 

So, I guess one would never buy an Evan Moor workbook from a teacher yardsale either.

 

Most of the EM and similar books I've used have a copyright statement that allows teachers to copy for classroom use. Depending on how it is worded, you are most likely within your legal rights to photocopy the worksheets and resell the book. Most also allow you to buy a used copy, photocopy, and resell if you'd like. Again though, check the copyright statement found in the book.

 

I checked most of my consumables and nearly all of them state copying is illegal. Some give permission to copy within a family. Keeping the workbook intact and having children use a photocopied page or using a separate piece of paper for writing is "consuming" the book. It violates copyright laws to resell it, even as a used but not written in copy.

 

I can't imagine wasting the time it takes to copy each page of a 160 lesson workbook. Not to mention the money for the ink and paper. I'd much rather spend a few minutes ordering a new one and the rest of the time playing in the sprinkler with the kids!

[FO4UR]

It's illegal! It's stealing!

 

*INTELLECTUAL* property....it's more than just the paper and ink.... You are paying for the author's expertise and not just the physical materials of the book. Author's of curriculum can only continue to do what they do if they are paid for it!

 

I've found many places give permission for family copying...and I buy from them when I can.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I find that the concept of intellectual copyright tends to be VAGUE for a lot of home educators...sigh...

 

And I'm thinking not just of copying and reselling, but of articles about classical education which use material from my speeches and my mother's speeches without any acknowledgment. I run across these more and more frequently, and they distress me. It's fine to use someone else's ideas, but you should GIVE CREDIT where credit is due.

 

When I protest to editor/s--which sometimes I actually take the time to do--I've been told to "take the Matthew 18 approach" with the writer.

:boxing_smiley:

 

I can't possibly be the only person who thinks this is WRONGHEADED.

 

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

p.s.

 

Sorry. I just hijacked this thread. :rant:

 

 

But there should be more awareness of this issue.

 

SWB

[jujsky]

These ethical questions people have been posting lately are very interesting. I'm "failing" most of them, but they're interesting!

 

I've done this before -- copied a workbook and then resold it. I found that it wasn't worth it. The hassle of copying everything sucked up so much time that I vowed never to do that again!

 

I know a lot of people here have said that it's not acceptable to cheat a small, homeschool company, but it's okay to resell something unused from a publisher like Evan Moor. Ethically, what's the difference? If it's considered stealing from one company, it's considered stealing from another, right?

 

One poster mentioned Calvert's ridiculous policy, and I agree. I did sell my used Calvert material from pre-K, and I gave it away for K even though that violates their copyright law. I honestly can't see throwing out that much paper. I wish some of these larger companies had more earth-friendly ways to deal with the excess materials. It would be nice if they offered to pay postage to have unused/slightly used matrials sent back to them, and then sold packages at deep-discounts to lower-income families. I'd be all for something like that. When I ordered K from them last year, I had to order 2 full sets for my 2 kids because they didn't have a reuse program for K at the time. So I received 2 copies of the 30+ paperback read-alouds, and the 20-some-odd phonics readers, the teachers aids (alphabet cards, phonics sliders, picture cards -- all of which I used one copy for both kids) in addition to 2 humungous lesson manuals (they offer a $25 discount if you only order one lesson manual, which I did, but they sent me 2 copies anyway). Seriously, it was a total waste of paper and space. I didn't feel guilty at all for giving all of my extras away to a friend.

 

Like I said, I've been failing all of these ethical questions miserably ;)

[Jenny in Atl]

Honestly, given the cost of copying a whole workbk just to re-sell it, does not seem worth the effort. If I sell it (consumable), it's because we did not use it.

[Orthodox6]

You did not hijack the thread at all ! In fact, if ever you have a few minutes to comment on some of the thoughts we have shared -- drawing on your knowledge of IP law, we all would be very, very appreciative ! As I wrote earlier, I have not studied the topic formally in 24 years. When I do speak against certain practices, I often feel as if I'm being "the board meanie" ! (not thinking of this board, but of others)

 

p.s.

 

Sorry. I just hijacked this thread. :rant:

 

 

But there should be more awareness of this issue.

 

SWB

[Laurie4b]

What about people who purchase a workbook and then do not use it in any way, because that particular book wasn't useful to them after all (for whatever reason)? Would it still be illegal to resell or give it away?

 

Unlawyerly opinion: no, because it was never used.

[FO4UR]

p.s.

 

Sorry. I just hijacked this thread. :rant:

 

 

But there should be more awareness of this issue.

 

SWB

 

No apologies!

 

You are a name/face to the issue!:001_smile: I'm :001_huh: about editors telling you to take the Matt 18 approach with the writers!

[joannqn]

I haven't been in here in a long time and was just visiting the For Sale board. I was shocked to find listings for workbooks & consumables that people admitted that they copied and used and were then reselling. I mean, it is one thing to resell a workbook one never used, but to make copies to use just to resell...

 

I am so annoyed that people would copy workbooks and resell them. How does copying to use and then reselling the books honor the small businesses that work hard to offer us homeschool curricula?

 

I thought most homeschool curricula had copyrights giving permission for a single family to make copies for use within their family, but not for multiple families. Is copying to use and then reselling going against the copyright? I see this practice as stealing, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

Any one else have an opinion?

 

I would agree that it would be a violation of copyright to do that. It's one of my pet peeves.

 

I joined a support group about 6 years ago that used to buy one workbook and copy each chapter for everyone at they went along. I put an end to that; we know buy extra copies of the workbook. These extra copies can be used for those visiting or new to the group to look at it during the meeting only or to buy. We only charge the exact cost of the books and do not make a profit on the sell.

 

I also had a friend ask to borrow one of my consumables so she could copy it for her children. I made up an excuse about why I couldn't give it up, but my real reason was that it was stealing and I wasn't going to be a part of it.

Edited June 17, 2009 by joannqn

[Laurie4b]

There is a difference between reselling things that are consumable (workbooks--things you are supposed to write in) and books that are not consumable. You can resell books multiple times.

 

If you copy a consumable thing because it is easier for you--that's fine as long as you throw out the orignal. You haven't taken a purchase from the author.

 

If it seems like a waste, just write in it.

[cathmom]

Is it wrong to buy a set of student pages from PHP and then copy them for each of my children? When all my children are done with the student pages, am I supposed to destroy them somehow?

[Stacie]

Is it wrong to buy a set of student pages from PHP and then copy them for each of my children? When all my children are done with the student pages, am I supposed to destroy them somehow?

 

 

If you have four children using them, copy them three times and let the fourth one use the "real deal." It saves you time and money on copying, and it still fits within the parameters outlined by PHP. These parameters vary with different companies and even within the same company so always check each individual item before copying.

[joannqn]

I copy workbooks at times because they are easier to use than trying to get the book to lie open flat to work in. So then technically, I'm supposed to toss a great book after I'm finished with it. Seems like such a waste to me.

 

This is one of the reasons that pull consumables apart. If they are perforated, I sit there and pull them all out. If they aren't I try to remove the binding. If I can't do that, I take an exacto blade to the pages. Then I file the pages (actually, I file all of our work) into file folders by week. There are no issues with the workbook being a pain to write in when you are working with individual pages.

[patchfire]

If you have four children using them, copy them three times and let the fourth one use the "real deal." It saves you time and money on copying, and it still fits within the parameters outlined by PHP. These parameters vary with different companies and even within the same company so always check each individual item before copying.

 

:iagree:

 

This is what I am doing with a few consumable things. By the time my youngest is old enough to use them, we'll know for sure that we're done having kids (if we have another, same principle), and she'll use the originals. We're not selling them onwards after using them within the family.

 

I also will sell consumable items that we've never used. Or, if we used one or two pages, I'll sell them with that noted in the description. We didn't actually use the material, so I don't feel it's a violation of copyright.

[mommaduck]

I find that the concept of intellectual copyright tends to be VAGUE for a lot of home educators...sigh...

 

And I'm thinking not just of copying and reselling, but of articles about classical education which use material from my speeches and my mother's speeches without any acknowledgment. I run across these more and more frequently, and they distress me. It's fine to use someone else's ideas, but you should GIVE CREDIT where credit is due.

 

When I protest to editor/s--which sometimes I actually take the time to do--I've been told to "take the Matthew 18 approach" with the writer.

:boxing_smiley:

 

I can't possibly be the only person who thinks this is WRONGHEADED.

 

SWB

 

Probably the most, or second most, used and misused verse in the Bible :glare: Feelin' for ya :grouphug:

[ezrabean2005]

I don't disagree with any of what anyone has said. The thought of copying onto another piece of paper has occurred to me, but not with the intent of reselling it. My kids "focus" better if I tear out each page and they can concentrate on just that page - so that idea never worked out which is fine.

 

But, just a similar question: Why on earth do some homeschool products cost so much? Sure, there is research and costs of production. But, say a popular product that is selling well. The research is done and now they are just printing them to sell. The costs of one workbook or textbook is going to cover the costs of printing, binding, shipping, etc. And then some. It's frustrating to see how many homeschool curriculums are just expensive to make a profit. And then especially since you can't see it until you buy it, many times it can fall short of what you are paying for that product.

 

Then there are even some companies and authors that produce new editions rendering old answer keys obsolete or just to further make more money by having everyone buy the "new" version.

 

I like the curriculums and the resources where you know what you are buying and why. If something is literature based, then okay - you are likely getting a lot of books. If you are buying much sight unseen you have to weigh the costs carefully of whatever you buy.

 

I just think that is why maybe homeschooler don't "care" as much about this issue as maybe they should. Are the companies being responsible and fair to make sure they are presenting their materials accurately or are they being vague about it and charging extra. I think that many companies take advantage of the "buzz" words and motivations of homeschooling families and say that X product will fit that. When it doesn't. Or the new and improved version is great, when it's just the same or less relevant.

[KidsHappen]

It really depends on the copyright.

 

The scenario you presented is never legal or ethical.

 

Some copyrights allow a family to make multiple copies for use by that family only. I have never actually seen it addressed but I would assume that the item must be destroyed after final use by that family. Otherwise, it would in effect be the same situation as above.

 

Some items are sold at a higher price to schools or other organizations with a special copyright that allows multiple copies. This is intended for the orginal user only and does not allow additional copies by other users.

 

You are allowed to answer questions on a separate piece of paper as long as you do not copy the material itself. The copyright is for the printed material only which you are not allowed to copy in any way, shape or form. The answers to the questions are your own material.

 

You are allowed to use short excepts with proper attribution however, you are not allowed to copy the material to refer to later. An example of this would be that when I went to school we were instructed to make copies of articles from encyclopedias, journals, etc. to use to write papers. This is technically illegal as it involves copying the material. The appropriate way to do this is to use the actual source itself to refer to.

 

In any case, if you buy something and never copy it, it is legal to resell it. You are allowed to read an item and then resell it.

 

I think that I addressed every concern here. I am not an expert on copyright law and as SWB said some of it is very fuzzy indeed but these are the basic ideas for printed material. Other forms of media are fuzzier still and not necessarily set in stone yet. But the same basic ideas should help you in determining if it is legal and/or moral.

[Kate in Arabia]

The research is done and now they are just printing them to sell. The costs of one workbook or textbook is going to cover the costs of printing, binding, shipping, etc. And then some. It's frustrating to see how many homeschool curriculums are just expensive to make a profit.

I used to work for a small publishing house and printing is *really* expensive. For smaller publishers, I imagine their printing costs are high -- cheaper printing is from overseas (like India) and in bulk. It's a bit of a risk to buy thousands of copies of a book/workbook in order to get a cheaper per-item price - you don't know that you'll sell all of them.

 

The publisher I worked for was always struggling, and they also relied (probably still rely) on donations to stay afloat. I don't know about other small publishers, what kind of overall profits they make, but my guess would be it's not huge.

[Kate in Arabia]

What about out-of-print books, like Singapore's Challenging Word Problems?

[chaik76]

It really depends on the copyright.

 

The scenario you presented is never legal or ethical.

 

Some copyrights allow a family to make multiple copies for use by that family only. I have never actually seen it addressed but I would assume that the item must be destroyed after final use by that family. Otherwise, it would in effect be the same situation as above.

 

 

I would be interested to see actual copyright law on this. I don't sell any of my homeschooling stuff, so I'm not really affected by this, and I buy workbooks new...so not affected by people who might copy, then sell. If copyright law (not necessarily what the company wants...for instance, WP wishes that you do not sell their exclusives, but they cannot, buy law, require that you do not) says I may not sell an unused workbook my children used by copying onto paper, whatever, then I would say don't do it. If the law does not actually say that I would have no problem selling an unused workbook copy. Unusued consumables are regularly available for sale even at homeschool stores.

Ethically, I have no problem purchasing an unused workbook from someone. I do not consider a problem. I consider it far less ethical for them to throw it away.

[The Governess]

I make copies of certain workbooks because I may want to re-use a page later. An example would be a handwriting book - one of my dds may need to practice a certain letter later and if they have already written in the workbook then I wouldn't be able to reuse it. And sometimes we do need to go back and review a certain type of math problem, phonics rule, etc. If the original hasn't been written in, I can just go make a new copies of the pages I need.

 

What do you all think about *giving* workbooks away that haven't been used instead of selling them? I have a lot of homeschooling friends that may not be able to afford to spend a lot of money on curriculum....I would much rather give them what I am not using anymore than throw a nice workbook in the trash, if it isn't illegal/unethical to do so. I'm not profiting from it, and the friend would most likely be unable to purchase their own copy anyway....what do you think?

[joannqn]

I just think that is why maybe homeschooler don't "care" as much about this issue as maybe they should. Are the companies being responsible and fair to make sure they are presenting their materials accurately or are they being vague about it and charging extra. I think that many companies take advantage of the "buzz" words and motivations of homeschooling families and say that X product will fit that. When it doesn't. Or the new and improved version is great, when it's just the same or less relevant.

 

I'm very careful of what I buy for this same reason. I won't buy a curriculum that is vague and doesn't have adequate sample pages for me to determine if it is something I want. Usually, I'll try to see the original if I can first...part of the reason I attend the homeschool convention. I started SOTW so late (4th grade) because the only thing I had known about it prior to then was seeing a sample of the storybook only. I thought it was pretty lame for a history program based on that. I didn't know there were other parts to go with it. It wasn't until I went to the convention last year and saw the activity book and student pages that I was sold on it. Had I known about the whole package, I would have started it much sooner.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

I do believe that CDs, DVDs, and software operate under an ENTIRELY different set of rules. Did you know that it is illegal to copy YOUR OWN movie to watch on YOUR OWN iPod??? Some new movies now are coming with a downloadable mp4 version just for that purpose. I think that if I can watch the DVD on my DVD player or computer, why can't I watch it on my iPod?

 

Here's another strange one. If you go to major zoos or parks and take pictures of their animals, you CANNOT use those photos for marketing or any other "for profit" purpose. I know for a fact that the Detroit Zoo actually has this written on their website. The photos taken of their animals are copyright of the zoo, NOT the artist.

 

So here's a tricky question for all of you. (Maybe even SWB???) Let's say I use the worksheets in the back of SOTW activity guide for my family. I make a copy for one child and then use the original for the other one. Can I then resell the rest of the guide? It specifically refers to "the consumable section" at one point in the copyright. I would, of course, state to the purchaser that the consumable pages were already used up.

[Mom-ninja.]

So here's a tricky question for all of you. (Maybe even SWB???) Let's say I use the worksheets in the back of SOTW activity guide for my family. I make a copy for one child and then use the original for the other one. Can I then resell the rest of the guide? It specifically refers to "the consumable section" at one point in the copyright. I would, of course, state to the purchaser that the consumable pages were already used up.

 

:bigear:

[KidsHappen]

What do you all think about *giving* workbooks away that haven't been used instead of selling them? I have a lot of homeschooling friends that may not be able to afford to spend a lot of money on curriculum....I would much rather give them what I am not using anymore than throw a nice workbook in the trash, if it isn't illegal/unethical to do so. I'm not profiting from it, and the friend would most likely be unable to purchase their own copy anyway....what do you think?

 

As I said in my previous post, I am not exactly sure about the legal requirements regarding final disposal of a previously copied item but this is what I personally do. I have no moral qualms about giving away an item. Perhaps anyone who receives review copies of item could weigh in on this as it would be a similar issue. What do you do with the item after it has been reviewed? If you didn't pay for it then I think that it would be morally questionable to sell it. How do you dispose of it?

[KristenS]

Along the lines of what SWB posted earlier ... I went to hear a (noted but will remain nameless) homeschool speaker a few years back, talking about projects she did with her kids. They made some very cute clip-art timeline type books, and then started selling them as a small business venture. She was understandably proud of their effort.

 

I questioned the ethics of using clip art from other sources without permission or even acknowledgement, and she jumped on me for being so picky about a simple kids' project ... "Who would be so mean to pick on a business venture by a kid anyway?". My thought was, And just when do you plan to TEACH them about copyright violations and ethics, if not now when they're earning money from it? It soured me enough that I won't buy this woman's products because I feel I can't trust that she's not violated someone else's efforts.

 

(And that's why I leave her nameless ... because I could be completely misconstruing her intentions and I do not want to be slandering anyone. I merely bring up the situation as another copyright ethics for consideration.)

[Pretty in Pink]

Interesting thread!

 

The only workbook I have ever copied is the Winston Grammar workbook and that is only because I really like the program and plan to use it again with my other children, but I worry that the workbook might be revised before my youngest gets to use it. I've never checked on their policy though; I guess I'll call in the morning and make sure what I am doing is permissable. I had planned to let my youngest child just write in the book.

[stripe]

You are allowed to use short excepts with proper attribution however, you are not allowed to copy the material to refer to later. An example of this would be that when I went to school we were instructed to make copies of articles from encyclopedias, journals, etc. to use to write papers. This is technically illegal as it involves copying the material. The appropriate way to do this is to use the actual source itself to refer to.

 

I do not believe this is universally acknowledged as true, by any stretch of the imagination. The law, despite what some publishers' groups would like you to believe, does not mean that all copying is illegal.

 

One has a right to fair use of materials, where one has an educational use for them where one gets no financial gain from them. So making one copy for one's personal research purposes is generally seen as fine. Otherwise everyone would have to sit in the library to use any research material (or rip the desired pages out of the books!). And it's rather curious that publishers allow articles from journals to be accessed digitally through databases to which many libraries subscribe; they know that people are printing them out. Hence the "email" and "print" links on each article.

 

The University of Texas (just one of many) has a "rule of thumb" for copying for research purposes, that suggests that it is within fair use to copy one article or chapter (small excerpt) of a work for personal educational use, and suggests that the law balances the character and nature of the use to determine whether a use is fair.

[Karenciavo]

I feel strongly about this too and completely agree with you OP. Now a thought has occurred to me and I wonder if people would give their opinion. I sometimes purchase workbooks for myself so I can read along with my children then sell them when we are done. I don't write in them or make copies. Anyone think this is wrong? :bigear:

[Julie in CA]

I haven't been in here in a long time and was just visiting the For Sale board. I was shocked to find listings for workbooks & consumables that people admitted that they copied and used and were then reselling.

Though I'm distressed when I hear about people doing this, I've never actually seen anything on the Sale Board where the sellers admit to doing it (and I'm there quite a bit). Maybe I've somehow missed it? I'm never seen anyone list that they've made copies and are now selling the original, or that they are using their original but are selling copies. Are you sure people aren't selling *unused copies* of workbooks? In other words, the original, unused workbook? I often list a book for sale as "I have one copy of ___________." It doesn't mean it's literally a copy, but rather, the book itself. :confused:

[Mom0012]

Ok, what do you think of this scenario? If I bought a workbook, say Rod & Staff, and had my child answer the questions on paper instead of in the workbook. If I then sold the unused (and also uncopied) workbook, do you think that would be a copyright violation?

 

This is a very interesting thread. I think copyright violation is something people don't take seriously at all. On the one hand, if I buy something, it really ought to be mine to do with as I please. On the flip side, companies-large and small-lose a great deal of money from copyright violation.

 

Jeannie

 

Yes, I was just wondering about this today. I just finished WWE 1 with my daughter. I didn't have her write in the workbook at all. We did all our writing on notebook paper.

 

Earlier today, I was looking through WWE 2, and noticed that there is a page at the beginning of the book saying that if you copy the workbook pages and then sell the book, you are violating the copyright law. As I said, I didn't copy the pages, but it made me wonder about where the law stood with the way I used the book.

 

Lisa

[LMA]

I haven't been in here in a long time and was just visiting the For Sale board. I was shocked to find listings for workbooks & consumables that people admitted that they copied and used and were then reselling. I mean, it is one thing to resell a workbook one never used, but to make copies to use just to resell...

 

 

Could you please cut and paste an example (without the name)? I have been browsing the sale board for certain books over the last few days and I don't recall anyone saying any they copied the workbook and now are selling.