Annoyed with copyright

[rafiki]

.

[Nestof3]

Is it wrong to buy a set of student pages from PHP and then copy them for each of my children? When all my children are done with the student pages, am I supposed to destroy them somehow?

 

This is what I do -- for the most part. I'm sure I've erred somewhere along the line.

 

Saxon math worksheets: I buy a set for each of my boys. They are meant to be consumable.

 

A Scholastic theme unit on rainforests with 10 reproducible pages and 20 teaching pages, I photocopy what we use -- sometimes 3 pages. When I am done with the rainforest unit, I sell the theme unit book. It is not advertised as a consumable resource like Saxon worksheets.

 

The first year I used Getty-Dubay handwriting, I didn't think about it. I photocopies Book A for my other son. B, C and D, I've bought them their own copy.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think if you're going to be annoyed with one, you should be annoyed with both big and small businesses getting "screwed". Either the copyright issue bothers you or it doesn't.

When a workbook is used in a classroom there have been appropriate additional licensing fees paid to the company for classroom or school use and they cover the cost for many, many students. They do not count a specific number of students. and I can't see one homeschooler buying it at a yard sale making much difference.

 

I do know of one teacher that bought each student a workbook even though they only used half of it. I asked her why she didn't copy it and she showed me the copyright. :) I think that teachers typically follow the rules.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

But, just a similar question: Why on earth do some homeschool products cost so much? Sure, there is research and costs of production. But, say a popular product that is selling well. The research is done and now they are just printing them to sell. The costs of one workbook or textbook is going to cover the costs of printing, binding, shipping, etc. And then some. It's frustrating to see how many homeschool curriculums are just expensive to make a profit. And then especially since you can't see it until you buy it, many times it can fall short of what you are paying for that product.

 

Then there are even some companies and authors that produce new editions rendering old answer keys obsolete or just to further make more money by having everyone buy the "new" version.

Because in order to make around $9 an hour I am going to have to sell about 75 copies of my Ancients curriculum. That won't happen until years go by after I have put the work in. And that is not counting out any of the costs involved at all, because I assume most of that is benefitting my family.. Extra books that I bought, trips to the library and bookstore, the cost of a website... and then lulu wanted $27 for printing my notebook. Trust me no one is getting rich. And yes, there is a pressure to update materials because besides the fact that websites expire, books go OOP and users suggest improvements...you could get paid for 10 copies but 70 people use it... for example.

 

I used to work for a small publishing house and printing is *really* expensive. For smaller publishers, I imagine their printing costs are high -- cheaper printing is from overseas (like India) and in bulk. It's a bit of a risk to buy thousands of copies of a book/workbook in order to get a cheaper per-item price - you don't know that you'll sell all of them.

 

The publisher I worked for was always struggling, and they also relied (probably still rely) on donations to stay afloat. I don't know about other small publishers, what kind of overall profits they make, but my guess would be it's not huge.

Thank you. That is why I am offering e-books. :) But I might personally print things for my costs of doing so.

 

Author's of curriculum can only continue to do what they do if they are paid for it!

Edited June 18, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[LibrarianMom]

I do not believe this is universally acknowledged as true, by any stretch of the imagination. The law, despite what some publishers' groups would like you to believe, does not mean that all copying is illegal.

 

One has a right to fair use of materials, where one has an educational use for them where one gets no financial gain from them. So making one copy for one's personal research purposes is generally seen as fine. Otherwise everyone would have to sit in the library to use any research material (or rip the desired pages out of the books!). And it's rather curious that publishers allow articles from journals to be accessed digitally through databases to which many libraries subscribe; they know that people are printing them out. Hence the "email" and "print" links on each article.

 

The University of Texas (just one of many) has a "rule of thumb" for copying for research purposes, that suggests that it is within fair use to copy one article or chapter (small excerpt) of a work for personal educational use, and suggests that the law balances the character and nature of the use to determine whether a use is fair.

 

 

For research and scholarship purposes one may copy parts of research materials. It's called the four fair use factors. A person may photocopy small portions of a book for personal research use. The rule of thumb is typically less than 10% of a book. The rule changes when it is a play, poem, picture or other item that is an entire item. You are supposed to make copies for personal use only not to share with everyone in your class. A teacher may make copies on the spur of the moment for a single class but can not plan ahead to make copies of the same item for every year thereafter. This website (http://www.loc.gov/teachers/copyrightmystery/) gives a great explanation.

 

As far as the journals that are available in full text through library databases, libraries pay out the nose for access to those journals. Many journals have an embargo period where they are not available in full-text for 12 to 18 months in order to make sure that libraries still have to subscribe to the journals. When I have to order articles directly from the publisher for professors I can expect to pay at least $35 per article.

 

As far as the unauthorized and unattributed use of SWBs materials in others speeches and written works, that is plagiarism plain and simple and is simply unacceptable.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Jumping back in here after a long day, don't have a lot of time and will check the thread again tomorrow...

 

Part of the copyright issue has to do with "mechanical means." Printing, on the part of a publisher, is a costly endeavor because you pay the printer to reproduce words on paper. If you have your child answer the questions on their own notebook paper and then sell the book, of course no one is going to come after you...it's like borrowing a book from the library and then copying out parts of it by hand. But using a photocopier to circumvent the purchase of another copy uses mechanical means to deprive the publisher of a sale.

 

That's hasty. Will be back in the morning.

 

SWB

[cathmom]

Well, I suppose now that I think about it, I'd rather give PHP the money than Staples LOL. It costs about the same (when you don't factor in shipping.)

[HollyDay]

Thank you for this thread!! Just this weekend I was laughed at for NOT copying my consumables or buying 1 consumable for 2 dc to "share". A group of ladies thought I was "wasteful" and not making wise use of my budget. They gave me grief.

 

Now, I feel I can better express myself if I see these ladies again or come up with this topic somewhere else.

 

Yes, we proudly write in our worktexts and other consumables. I also highlight and make notes where needed in my non-consumable books. I DO NOT keep oldest dc's worktexts "pristine" so younger can use it.

 

I bought it, I'm going to use it. Dc are going to use it and, hopefully, enjoy the process of learning and doodling in the margins on occasion.

 

Again, thanks for explaining this issue so well!

[JudoMom]

When a workbook is used in a classroom there have been appropriate additional licensing fees paid to the company for classroom or school use and they cover the cost for many, many students. They do not count a specific number of students. and I can't see one homeschooler buying it at a yard sale making much difference.

 

I do know of one teacher that bought each student a workbook even though they only used half of it. I asked her why she didn't copy it and she showed me the copyright. :) I think that teachers typically follow the rules.

 

Copyright is copyright, though. If Evan Moor, for example, says that the teacher may copy for his classroom only, reselling the book would be a violation of copyright. I'm saying it doesn't matter if one homeschooler buying it at a yard sale makes much of a difference or not, because the law is still being violated.

[chaik76]

Copyright is copyright, though. If Evan Moor, for example, says that the teacher may copy for his classroom only, reselling the book would be a violation of copyright. I'm saying it doesn't matter if one homeschooler buying it at a yard sale makes much of a difference or not, because the law is still being violated.

Can you post a link to the pertinent law on this? I have never heard that you can not re-sell consumable products. I have heard that it is ethically inappropriate to copy consumables for the sole purpose of re-selling the original, but I have never read actual copyright law (I'm not talking about what individual companies write on the insides of their covers...sometimes what they say is not law) that stated that it is illegal to re-sell consumables.

 

(For the record, again, I don't sell my consumables. I am incapable of selling any of my homeschool books, consumable or not. We save everything.)

[ekarl2]

As a vendor, I'll pop in here.

 

We sell student workbooks with separate teacher books (keys). I consider it illegal for someone to purchase a workbook and then photocopy it for multiple children. BUT, if someone monetarily needs to put the work in to have the work hand-written on a sheet of notebook paper or use sheet protectors, I really don't have a problem with that. I would hope that the book would be written in by one child, though. I have to admit I'd get irked by someone doing that just to simply resell the book. That's pretty chintzy.

 

I don't have a problem with a page or two here or there being copied for the purposes of a child re-doing a section or something like that. If overall I have been paid to teach that child the subject and won't lose a future sale to someone else, you can do what you like. I also don't have a problem with teacher keys being resold. Sure, that costs me sales, but I'd hate the book to be tossed, to be honest.

 

As far as cost, I'll admit that our books aren't cheap. But keep in mind that paper, ink, binding, laminating, and author's time are not the only factors ...

 

-web site design and upkeep

-credit card processing (this adds up!)

-storage

-convention costs. That PALATIAL 10 foot by 10 foot booth can cost anywhere from $150 to $800 for the weekend. Not to mention air/car travel, hotel, car rental, meals, etc. for at least two people

-computer equipment

-related printing -- brochures, invoices, etc.

-labor -- someone's gotta print the packing slips and put the books into boxes

-profit. Yes, profit. Whether a vendor views his or her business as a ministry, people gotta eat! I make no excuses for wanting to make a profit off the books we sell. That doesn't mean I'm jumping in my piles of gold (right now I'm in our international headquarters which is also known as "my basement."), but it does mean that we need to make enough profit to pay salary, pay off debt, etc.

 

So, anyway ... that's my "chime in." Good night everyone ... I'm about to climb the basement stairs and call it a night!

[TravelingChris]

I have never in my life copied a workbook and then sold a workbook. However, I have bought lots of books and workbooks that I have never used since I often buy too many homeschooling materials than we can actually get through. I don't sell books usually but I might have sold a workbook. I don't really remember since I have been homeschooling for 15 years. I do know that I never bought one, copied it, and sold it unused. The way I have done it is no violation of any copywrite law.

[JudoMom]

Can you post a link to the pertinent law on this? I have never heard that you can not re-sell consumable products. I have heard that it is ethically inappropriate to copy consumables for the sole purpose of re-selling the original, but I have never read actual copyright law (I'm not talking about what individual companies write on the insides of their covers...sometimes what they say is not law) that stated that it is illegal to re-sell consumables.

 

(For the record, again, I don't sell my consumables. I am incapable of selling any of my homeschool books, consumable or not. We save everything.)

 

I don't know if there is a law :D. All I'm arguing here is that if a person is going to follow the copyright law (whatever that is) for homeschool companies, they should follow the copyright law for bigger businesses as well. The OP said earlier up that it's the smaller homeschool companies that are "getting screwed" and that the bigger companies had "pricing and policies that acknowledged the issue". I'm just saying if you're going to follow the law (whatever that is) for smaller homeschool companies, you should follow the law for the bigger companies as well. Just because you think they've accounted for what may or may not be illegal activity does not mean that you should participate in the illegal activity.

 

I've got no idea what the law actually says :lol:.

[Jami]

It's frustrating to see how many homeschool curriculums are just expensive to make a profit.

 

I find this attitude puzzling. Why in the world shouldn't a company make a profit on their material? If it's a useful, well-done product, then they should certainly sell what the market is willing to pay for it. If it's a poor product or has a poor return policy, then buyers should be vocal about that and negative word of mouth will probably require the company to adjust policy or pricing accordingly. But those that publish curriculum should be able to make a profit for their materials. Should they just publish for the rest of us as a ministry? :confused:

Edited June 18, 2009 by Jami

[CatMomof3]

As a vendor, I'll pop in here.

 

We sell student workbooks with separate teacher books (keys). I consider it illegal for someone to purchase a workbook and then photocopy it for multiple children. BUT, if someone monetarily needs to put the work in to have the work hand-written on a sheet of notebook paper or use sheet protectors, I really don't have a problem with that. I would hope that the book would be written in by one child, though. I have to admit I'd get irked by someone doing that just to simply resell the book. That's pretty chintzy.

 

I don't have a problem with a page or two here or there being copied for the purposes of a child re-doing a section or something like that. If overall I have been paid to teach that child the subject and won't lose a future sale to someone else, you can do what you like. I also don't have a problem with teacher keys being resold. Sure, that costs me sales, but I'd hate the book to be tossed, to be honest.

 

As far as cost, I'll admit that our books aren't cheap. But keep in mind that paper, ink, binding, laminating, and author's time are not the only factors ...

 

-web site design and upkeep

-credit card processing (this adds up!)

-storage

-convention costs. That PALATIAL 10 foot by 10 foot booth can cost anywhere from $150 to $800 for the weekend. Not to mention air/car travel, hotel, car rental, meals, etc. for at least two people

-computer equipment

-related printing -- brochures, invoices, etc.

-labor -- someone's gotta print the packing slips and put the books into boxes

-profit. Yes, profit. Whether a vendor views his or her business as a ministry, people gotta eat! I make no excuses for wanting to make a profit off the books we sell. That doesn't mean I'm jumping in my piles of gold (right now I'm in our international headquarters which is also known as "my basement."), but it does mean that we need to make enough profit to pay salary, pay off debt, etc.

 

So, anyway ... that's my "chime in." Good night everyone ... I'm about to climb the basement stairs and call it a night!

My mom owns and runs a small publishing company. Believe me, she is NOT getting rich, she has to have a second job so she can eat and pay bills. But she loves what she does.

[Sparkle]

I haven't seen people on the For Sale board selling copied workbooks, but I do agree it's wrong to do so. I try to pay close attention to any workbooks and consumables I buy and if it's permitted, I will sometimes make copies for each of my children. I wouldn't re-sell the original though, but I might donate it. If the company doesn't allow copying within the family (Catholic Heritage Curriculum is one I know of) then I will buy individual copies for each child. Now I *have* sold unused workbooks - ones that I bought and maybe looked through but never used. I think we should give authors/publishers their due. I'm sure they work very hard at coming up with great curricula - makes me happy that I don't have to do it myself :D

[Lovedtodeath]

Copyright is copyright, though. If Evan Moor, for example, says that the teacher may copy for his classroom only, reselling the book would be a violation of copyright. I'm saying it doesn't matter if one homeschooler buying it at a yard sale makes much of a difference or not, because the law is still being violated.

I am not sure that Evan Moor says this... My thought is that I seriously doubt that there are teachers with copied workbooks in their garage sales, and if this is the case I seriously doubt that Evan Moor would care. I bought my Abeka workbook from a teacher and she had used the first 12 pages. Luckily Abeka has plenty of review, so we won't miss them. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do know what you are saying though. Big businesses have expenses and workers to pay and get benefits for. In the end ,someone small could still hurt from it.

 

As a vendor, I'll pop in here.

 

We sell student workbooks with separate teacher books (keys). I consider it illegal for someone to purchase a workbook and then photocopy it for multiple children. BUT, if someone monetarily needs to put the work in to have the work hand-written on a sheet of notebook paper or use sheet protectors, I really don't have a problem with that. I would hope that the book would be written in by one child, though. I have to admit I'd get irked by someone doing that just to simply resell the book. That's pretty chintzy.

 

I don't have a problem with a page or two here or there being copied for the purposes of a child re-doing a section or something like that. If overall I have been paid to teach that child the subject and won't lose a future sale to someone else, you can do what you like. I also don't have a problem with teacher keys being resold. Sure, that costs me sales, but I'd hate the book to be tossed, to be honest.

 

As far as cost, I'll admit that our books aren't cheap. But keep in mind that paper, ink, binding, laminating, and author's time are not the only factors ...

 

-web site design and upkeep

-credit card processing (this adds up!)

-storage

-convention costs. That PALATIAL 10 foot by 10 foot booth can cost anywhere from $150 to $800 for the weekend. Not to mention air/car travel, hotel, car rental, meals, etc. for at least two people

-computer equipment

-related printing -- brochures, invoices, etc.

-labor -- someone's gotta print the packing slips and put the books into boxes

-profit. Yes, profit. Whether a vendor views his or her business as a ministry, people gotta eat! I make no excuses for wanting to make a profit off the books we sell. That doesn't mean I'm jumping in my piles of gold (right now I'm in our international headquarters which is also known as "my basement."), but it does mean that we need to make enough profit to pay salary, pay off debt, etc.

 

So, anyway ... that's my "chime in." Good night everyone ... I'm about to climb the basement stairs and call it a night!

Thank you. I always enjoy your posts. Yes, if I thought that I wasn't going to make something I wouldn't bother. It takes me about 10 times longer to make a curriculum work for selling it as it takes to make one for my own family's uses.

[hsmom3tn]

This has been a great thread to read through. It's given me a lot to consider. I didn't realize the copyright laws were so different from book to book, or publisher to publisher; and will admit that it is confusing to me.

 

I have a bad habit of over-buying, and have built up several years' worth of teacher books (like the Evan Moor and Scholastic Professional books, etc.) that I may have flipped through but never used. I have sold them in the past, and never thought anything would be wrong with that. I also buy a lot of things "used", not knowing exactly how they were used, and sometimes sell those if I don't use them myself. I give away a lot of these types of books, too - some used, some unused.

 

As far as copying, I have three children, so if a book says it is reproducible, and I need it for all of my kids, I have bought one and made copies of the reproducible pages. Afterwards, I may have sold or given it away. How do you know if this is okay? It never occurred to me that it might be wrong.

 

There have also been a few times when I have bought one consumable book and let my oldest write on separate paper in order to save for my younger two. If the consumable book is inexpensive or if they are all going to be using the curriculum at the same time, it's easier to just buy 3 of them.

 

I have never knowingly sold something that specifically said not to resell it. I used to work in a used bookstore where we did consignment. I turned away several potential consignors that wanted to sell things that were not to be resold , and they would get so angry about it. I think you should take things like that into consideration when purchasing curriculum or anything else.

 

I've got a lot more books to sell, and now I'm worried that I'm not supposed to sell them :(

[LUV2EDU]

Here is a good article on this subject. http://eclectichomeschool.org/articles/article.asp?articleid=388

 

Quote from article:

 

"No portion of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopy, recording, or otherwise, without expressed written permission from the publisher. Permission is granted for copies of reproducible pages to be made for use within your own family.

 

This is a generous move, and one that Mrs. Rushton is in no way required to make, but she’s a homeschooling parent too (Most homeschool publishers are!) and she’s on a tight budget too (Most homeschool publishers are!), so she understands the financial needs of a family and helps in any way she can. Note, however, that she is not giving anyone the right to make copies for other people."

[Peek a Boo]

(. . . and I persist in considering Calvert's requirement ludicrous. )

 

I would be interested to see actual copyright law on this. ...... I consider it far less ethical for them to throw it away.

 

When we delved into copyright law back on the old board, I think it was pretty much established w/ links ad nauseum that publishers did have the right to set ludicrous policies about copying their work. But I don't think i saved those discussions....

 

And we come to the second part of the discussion: even if it is blatantly illegal to copy workbooks, how many would do it anyway as part of a civil disobedience type of thing? How far in each direction does ethics go?

[Manamana]

I recently bought an older used copy of the SOTW2 Activity Book along with the student pages. I couldn't understand why the student pages had not been used by the seller. It's possible she didn't use the curriculum at all. Now I wonder if the seller photocopied the student pages to use, saving the originals to resell later.

 

The used book market is helpful. But if homeschoolers are violating copyright to make/save a few bucks I think I'm better off rewarding the good ideas of authors/publishers by buying new books.

[camibami]

Well, I resell workbooks, but just ones I haven't used. I am an admitted curriculum junkie!! In fact I have a copy of WWE Level 1 I need to sell because I ordered it and Level 2 and only need Level 2. Also 2 extra copies of SOTW Activity guides, because for some reason I kept forgetting I had it and rebuying it.:glare:

 

It has honestly never occured to me that someone would copy stuff just to resell the original. I just assume that like me, they squirrel things away in boxes and closets and then find out they have too many!!

 

I was PO'd that Rosetta Stone can't be resold- we bought Spanish, used it maybe 2 months, and found out we were moving to Korea. Spanish ain't real handy here. I ended up just giving it to my neighbor, but I will never buy that expensive program again if I can't resell it when finished using it!

[funschooler5]

It has honestly never occured to me that someone would copy stuff just to resell the original. I just assume that like me, they squirrel things away in boxes and closets and then find out they have too many!!

 

:iagree:

For what some people are selling used workbooks for, it hardly seems worth the time and effort. I absolutely hate photocopying!!! I have to hold the book in place while it copies on our printer/copier, and it's an inkjet so it takes forever. I wish more things were available as e-books. I bought so many Evan-Moor e-books, I ended up getting a subscription to their Teacher's Filebox. I love being able to print stuff out for a particular subject/kid. If all their curriculum was like that, it'd save me so much time and shelf space!

[rockermom]

What do you all think about *giving* workbooks away that haven't been used instead of selling them? I have a lot of homeschooling friends that may not be able to afford to spend a lot of money on curriculum....I would much rather give them what I am not using anymore than throw a nice workbook in the trash, if it isn't illegal/unethical to do so. I'm not profiting from it, and the friend would most likely be unable to purchase their own copy anyway....what do you think?

 

While I don't want anyone to break copyright laws, I do realize that we will one day be at the mercy of used book sales and the kindness of others. I sure hope that it's okay to resell/donate consumables that were NOT used so that my dc may learn.

 

The "mechanical means" SWB spoke of makes sense to me. That would imply intent.

[creekland]

Ok, I'm pretty much totally on the other side of this one...

 

Personally, I feel once you have bought something, it's yours and you can do with it as you please.

 

I buy many books with the intent that all three of my boys will use them - it's good economics. I tend to buy used if I can find good non-written in varieties. If not, then I will buy new - esp if I know all three boys can use the materials. I resell when we are done with them. Mine do their work on a separate sheet of paper (homework) and then we make copies of the tests for them to do. When a workbook is involved (like Wordly-Wise), then they get to write in them and they get tossed at the end, but that's about it. Personally, I would never copy a workbook as I feel it would cost more in paper and ink... Economics + green issues (what's good for the planet) drives much of what I do.

 

I see absolutely no difference between used books and buying/selling second hand clothes at the thrift shop or handing them down between my boys. I suspect that clothes were designed and sold with one wearer in mind too - and one can make the argument that not buying new for my boys withholds profit from the manufacturer as well...

 

My kids also do not have their own car - we share vehicles. When they go to college and do get one, it will probably be used - even though it denies a car manufacturer more $$.

 

I reuse bags from the grocery store and feed store instead of buying trash bags. I reuse boxes for shipping.

 

I buy MANY things from yard sales or auctions - from small to large.

 

We've shared magazines and newspapers with our neighbors at times - or the dentist's office (we donate magazines there).

 

We use our public library to borrow reading material - even for school reading material.

 

We watch TV for educational shows, movies, and other fun stuff and always use our DVR to skip the commercials.

 

Perhaps some people can afford new all the time - that's their choice. We, however, stretch our budget to the hilt to allow extra for other things we enjoy. I suppose you can blame it on my grandparents (both sides) that taught thrift - combined with growing up in a lower economic demographic.

 

I would have no qualms buying - or selling - a book that some person said one "can't" resell. I find tossing it incredibly wasteful - more of a "sin" than reselling (or giving it away). I am just SO not into a disposable/landfill society... with any types of materials - not just perfectly good books. My Rosetta Stone will be resold once we are done with it - and I would buy a used "Level 3" if I could find it...

 

About the only thing I can think of that I wouldn't want to be part of is Chinese knock off types... copying other folks' stuff in mass to resell as original in new condition. I worry about that sometimes (like buying DVD's off e-bay), but unfortunately, I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't. We don't buy much off e-bay, so I don't lose much sleep...

 

I suppose I'm in the minority - at least of those of us posting - but that's the way it is... I'm not changing.

[mommytobees]

I recently bought an older used copy of the SOTW2 Activity Book along with the student pages. I couldn't understand why the student pages had not been used by the seller. It's possible she didn't use the curriculum at all. Now I wonder if the seller photocopied the student pages to use, saving the originals to resell later.

 

The used book market is helpful. But if homeschoolers are violating copyright to make/save a few bucks I think I'm better off rewarding the good ideas of authors/publishers by buying new books.

 

I always purchase an extra set of student pages, specifically so my AG is complete.

 

I REFUSE to photocopy anything that doesn't have to be. Waste of time. Waste of printer paper. Waste of printer ink. And, I just hate doing it!

 

Kris

[Snickerdoodle]

I don't buy used off the internet unless it's from amazon's marketplace. Even then I have had the occasional bad experience. It's just easier for me to buy new.

 

Secondly, I don't sell anything. I keep it all. Someday, I'm gonna have daughters-in-law who will homeschool my grandbabies. ;) :D :tongue_smilie:

[Melissa in Australia]

Ok, I'm pretty much totally on the other side of this one...

 

Personally, I feel once you have bought something, it's yours and you can do with it as you please.

 

I buy many books with the intent that all three of my boys will use them - it's good economics. I tend to buy used if I can find good non-written in varieties. If not, then I will buy new - esp if I know all three boys can use the materials. I resell when we are done with them. Mine do their work on a separate sheet of paper (homework) and then we make copies of the tests for them to do. When a workbook is involved (like Wordly-Wise), then they get to write in them and they get tossed at the end, but that's about it. Personally, I would never copy a workbook as I feel it would cost more in paper and ink... Economics + green issues (what's good for the planet) drives much of what I do.

 

I see absolutely no difference between used books and buying/selling second hand clothes at the thrift shop or handing them down between my boys. I suspect that clothes were designed and sold with one wearer in mind too - and one can make the argument that not buying new for my boys withholds profit from the manufacturer as well...

 

I buy MANY things from yard sales or auctions - from small to large.

 

We've shared magazines and newspapers with our neighbors at times - or the dentist's office (we donate magazines there).

 

We use our public library to borrow reading material - even for school reading material.

 

We watch TV for educational shows, movies, and other fun stuff and always use our DVR to skip the commercials.

 

Perhaps some people can afford new all the time - that's their choice. We, however, stretch our budget to the hilt to allow extra for other things we enjoy. I suppose you can blame it on my grandparents (both sides) that taught thrift - combined with growing up in a lower economic demographic.

 

I would have no qualms buying - or selling - a book that some person said one "can't" resell. I find tossing it incredibly wasteful - more of a "sin" than reselling (or giving it away). I am just SO not into a disposable/landfill society... with any types of materials - not just perfectly good books. My Rosetta Stone will be resold once we are done with it - and I would buy a used "Level 3" if I could find it...

 

About the only thing I can think of that I wouldn't want to be part of is Chinese knock off types... copying other folks' stuff in mass to resell as original in new condition. I worry about that sometimes (like buying DVD's off e-bay), but unfortunately, I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't. We don't buy much off e-bay, so I don't lose much sleep...

 

I suppose I'm in the minority - at least of those of us posting - but that's the way it is... I'm not changing.

 

 

 

:iagree:

[Quiver0f10]

.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Quiver0f10

[Karenciavo]

I suppose I'm in the minority - at least of those of us posting - but that's the way it is... I'm not changing.

 

I wonder how you feel about people stealing from you :confused:

[katemary63]

I find this attitude puzzling. Why in the world shouldn't a company make a profit on their material? If it's a useful, well-done product, then they should certainly sell what the market is willing to pay for it. If it's a poor product or has a poor return policy, then buyers should be vocal about that and negative word of mouth will probably require the company to adjust policy or pricing accordingly. But those that publish curriculum should be able to make a profit for their materials. Should they just publish for the rest of us as a ministry? :confused:

 

:iagree:

[Nestof3]

I wonder how you feel about people stealing from you :confused:

 

I think you're missing where she said she doesn't copy entire workbooks.

 

If the concern is about copyright laws, that's one thing. If it's about cutting into profits of businesses, then one could argue that everyone should buy new everything and never resell. If I sell my SOTW textbook, that too is cutting into profits of PHP. The library itself cuts into profits.

 

I buy many books with the intent that all three of my boys will use them - it's good economics. I tend to buy used if I can find good non-written in varieties. If not, then I will buy new - esp if I know all three boys can use the materials. I resell when we are done with them. Mine do their work on a separate sheet of paper (homework) and then we make copies of the tests for them to do. When a workbook is involved (like Wordly-Wise), then they get to write in them and they get tossed at the end, but that's about it. Personally, I would never copy a workbook as I feel it would cost more in paper and ink... Economics + green issues (what's good for the planet) drives much of what I do.

 

[ezrabean2005]

Ok, I'm pretty much totally on the other side of this one...

 

Personally, I feel once you have bought something, it's yours and you can do with it as you please.

 

I buy many books with the intent that all three of my boys will use them - it's good economics. I tend to buy used if I can find good non-written in varieties. If not, then I will buy new - esp if I know all three boys can use the materials. I resell when we are done with them. Mine do their work on a separate sheet of paper (homework) and then we make copies of the tests for them to do. When a workbook is involved (like Wordly-Wise), then they get to write in them and they get tossed at the end, but that's about it. Personally, I would never copy a workbook as I feel it would cost more in paper and ink... Economics + green issues (what's good for the planet) drives much of what I do.

 

I see absolutely no difference between used books and buying/selling second hand clothes at the thrift shop or handing them down between my boys. I suspect that clothes were designed and sold with one wearer in mind too - and one can make the argument that not buying new for my boys withholds profit from the manufacturer as well...

 

My kids also do not have their own car - we share vehicles. When they go to college and do get one, it will probably be used - even though it denies a car manufacturer more $$.

 

I reuse bags from the grocery store and feed store instead of buying trash bags. I reuse boxes for shipping.

 

I buy MANY things from yard sales or auctions - from small to large.

 

We've shared magazines and newspapers with our neighbors at times - or the dentist's office (we donate magazines there).

 

We use our public library to borrow reading material - even for school reading material.

 

We watch TV for educational shows, movies, and other fun stuff and always use our DVR to skip the commercials.

 

Perhaps some people can afford new all the time - that's their choice. We, however, stretch our budget to the hilt to allow extra for other things we enjoy. I suppose you can blame it on my grandparents (both sides) that taught thrift - combined with growing up in a lower economic demographic.

 

I would have no qualms buying - or selling - a book that some person said one "can't" resell. I find tossing it incredibly wasteful - more of a "sin" than reselling (or giving it away). I am just SO not into a disposable/landfill society... with any types of materials - not just perfectly good books. My Rosetta Stone will be resold once we are done with it - and I would buy a used "Level 3" if I could find it...

 

About the only thing I can think of that I wouldn't want to be part of is Chinese knock off types... copying other folks' stuff in mass to resell as original in new condition. I worry about that sometimes (like buying DVD's off e-bay), but unfortunately, I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't. We don't buy much off e-bay, so I don't lose much sleep...

 

I suppose I'm in the minority - at least of those of us posting - but that's the way it is... I'm not changing.

:iagree:

I really like the argument about clothing and used cars. Technically, someone had to think about these things, research them, produce them, ship them. Just because a company is small or family owned does not mean that they get special exceptions extended to them (there seems to be an attitude of "it's a small family business" vs. "a big bad corporation"). All corporations started small. I would be interest to find out the actual laws regarding this sort of thing - I agree that there may be a huge difference between what the law protects as copyrighted versus what the author or company would prefer. One can be enforced so is justified and the other can't be enforced but (if feasible) one can be sensitive too.

 

My DH and I own a cafe so we are very familiar with having a small company with minimal profit. But that is the cost of having your own business. There are price breaks available if you order things in great volumes for our cafe, but they are not reasonable given our size and customer base. So we just do the best we can and save in other ways. This is true in every industry.

 

Regarding the post about the costs of printing for the smaller businees, etc. I agree. But the example I used originally was on a product that was popular and was already selling well. Ebooks are a great idea and will definitely lower the cost of creating and distributing the products.

 

This is a great thread and a great discussion. Lots to think about.:001_smile:

[Orthodox6]

I never have heard of "copyright" applied to cars or clothes as an analogy. Sorry, but doesn't fit at all !

[creekland]

I wonder how you feel about people stealing from you :confused:

 

I do not consider any of my actions to be stealing...

[ezrabean2005]

I never have heard of "copyright" applied to cars or clothes as an analogy. Sorry, but doesn't fit at all !

 

The idea was regarding reselling a used item. It is related using the same train of thought. Trademarks and copyrights are used on many designs and models of products whether it is made of plastic or written into words. We trademarked our logo, designs, and a couple of special drinks at the cafe, but even then we are still limited in our rights (this goes back to the spirit of the law and someone's intent).

 

It does apply - in my mind it can help to think of the same situation regarding other products or ideas to kind of "flesh out" the situations it may / should / does apply to. Homeschooling curriculum is a product the same as any other book, idea, invention, etc.

[Moxie]

I never have heard of "copyright" applied to cars or clothes as an analogy. Sorry, but doesn't fit at all !

 

:iagree:

[katemary63]

I really like the argument about clothing and used cars.

 

This is apples and oranges. Reusing an item of clothing or a car is RE-USING the same item. You are not making a copy of the clothes or car and then selling the original in like new condition. Theoretically, a person could buy a workbook, copy it many, many times and then sell them. This would obviously be cheating the publisher out of their rightly deserved profits and giving profits to someone who did not earn them. You can't possibly do that with clothing or cars - at least the ordinary person couldn't! This is why copyright laws exist; to protect the publisher/ authors from being cheated.

I am concerned about what the actual laws are. I am a law abiding citizen and that is important to me. I like fairness and the idea of "Do unto others..." I try to put myself in the place of others - say in this case, a curriculum author. I would not want to be cheated out of my hard earned money. There are laws to protect me from that and I would want people who bought my products to follow those laws. So...that's what I want to do for others.

I don't photocopy workbooks with the intent to re-sell. We have answered questions orally or on separate sheets of paper on occasion and then re-sold the book. I would LOVE to have a clearer understanding of weather that is actually against copy write law or not since it seems there have been different opinions on that on this thread. If it turns out that is illegal, I will stop. We haven't done it often anyway.

 

I am gratefull for this thread and find it helpfull in keeping me accountable to a good ethical standard. Thanks!

[creekland]

I never have heard of "copyright" applied to cars or clothes as an analogy. Sorry, but doesn't fit at all !

 

Copyright - to me - means I can't take the exact same material and print stuff myself with plans to sell as new and original (Chinese knock off style). I don't do that. I never copied tapes or CD's to sell to others either, but it didn't bother me to sell my used ones at a yard sale - or buy someone elses.

 

The analogy comes in whether it is ok to buy/use/sell used stuff. I feel it not only is, it makes good economic sense and helps keep our planet more pristine than buying, using once, then dumping in a landfill just to buy new again.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

I buy many books with the intent that all three of my boys will use them - it's good economics. I tend to buy used if I can find good non-written in varieties. If not, then I will buy new - esp if I know all three boys can use the materials. I resell when we are done with them. Mine do their work on a separate sheet of paper (homework) and then we make copies of the tests for them to do. When a workbook is involved (like Wordly-Wise), then they get to write in them and they get tossed at the end, but that's about it. Personally, I would never copy a workbook as I feel it would cost more in paper and ink... Economics + green issues (what's good for the planet) drives much of what I do.

 

 

 

I think some people are getting confused here. It is not illegal to sell used books. It is just illegal to sell consumables (i.e. workbooks/worktexts) that have been consumed. Look at it this way: If you buy a package of cookies and eat one, but don't like them, it is perfectly fine to give the rest to a neighbor/friend. (Cookies are consumable goods.) HOWEVER, if you go through the package and lick them all, they have basically been "consumed." (If your friend likes to eat your licked cookies, that's a whole different topic!!!) To translate this idea to books, if you copy the page and your child uses the copy, the page has essentially been "licked," and therefore cannot be legally sold. :D:D:D

 

And this does NOT apply to non-consumable books (except for Calvert TMs, because they specifically have that copyright).

[KristenS]

Here's another spin to throw in ...

 

For those who buy (consumable) books and let the eldest write on paper so the next child can use the original, etc ...

 

By the time several kids have used that particular consumable, there's a pretty good chance that version is OOP anyway, and has been updated by its publisher.

 

Not sure if that affects anyone's answer, but I thought I'd toss it out there.

 

Personally, I'm for buying nonconsumables whenever possible (total bookaholic here), and then getting fresh consumable workbooks for each child as needed. Aside from the copyright matters (which are important to me), I just don't want the hassle of keeping up with all those extra papers. :)

 

But ... one kit we use is mostly reusable, with the exception of a handful of consumable student sheets. I am photocopying those so that each of my children can use them, since we're doing the experiments together anyway. I have no intention of reselling those pages when we're done with them ... but I don't want to have to pay for those pages twice, either, when the entire rest of the expensive kit is intended to be reused. Hmm. Am I cheating them of profit? It's certainly not my intent. :/ (Buying duplicates of the student sheets, for this particular curriculum, is not an option. Otherwise I probably would. It's an all or nothing package. But it is designed to be used with multiple kids at a time, if the parent so desires. Except for those pesky student pages.)

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

copyright: a document granting exclusive right to publish and sell literary or musical or artistic work

 

The artist/publisher/etc. has the RIGHT to COPY their material. That right is usually granted to them specifically, unless one has "express written permission" from the publisher.

 

Cars, clothes, etc. do not have that right. Now, if you want to get into patents, that's another thread. ;)

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

Here's another spin to throw in ...

 

But ... one kit we use is mostly reusable, with the exception of a handful of consumable student sheets. I am photocopying those so that each of my children can use them, since we're doing the experiments together anyway. I have no intention of reselling those pages when we're done with them ... but I don't want to have to pay for those pages twice, either, when the entire rest of the expensive kit is intended to be reused. Hmm. Am I cheating them of profit? It's certainly not my intent. :/ (Buying duplicates of the student sheets, for this particular curriculum, is not an option. Otherwise I probably would. It's an all or nothing package. But it is designed to be used with multiple kids at a time, if the parent so desires. Except for those pesky student pages.)

 

I would guess that there's a clause in there for making copies within your own family for that. If it's homeschool curriculum, that is.

[ezrabean2005]

http://www.wipo.int/freepublications/en/copyright/935/wipo_pub_935.pdf

 

On page 23 it talks about owning a copy of a work. This was created for kids by the World Intellectual Property Organization. Interesting reading...clearly a good read for adults too.

 

Also page 25 under economic rights and then page 26 under the "first sale doctrine" (in the Beware! box). I'd be interested to find out everyone's feelings with this information in mind.

 

....Still reading...

[katemary63]

http://www.wipo.int/freepublications/en/copyright/935/wipo_pub_935.pdf

 

On page 23 it talks about owning a copy of a work. This was created for kids by the World Intellectual Property Organization. Interesting reading...clearly a good read for adults too.

 

Also page 25 under economic rights and then page 26 under the "first sale doctrine" (in the Beware! box). I'd be interested to find out everyone's feelings with this information in mind.

 

....Still reading...

 

Great link. After reading this, it looks to me like it is perfectly fine to buy a workbook, answer the questions orally or on a seperate sheet of paper and then resell the workbook, having never made a copy of it of anykind. Do others see it that way?

[rockermom]

http://www.wipo.int/freepublications/en/copyright/935/wipo_pub_935.pdf

 

On page 23 it talks about owning a copy of a work. This was created for kids by the World Intellectual Property Organization. Interesting reading...clearly a good read for adults too.

 

Also page 25 under economic rights and then page 26 under the "first sale doctrine" (in the Beware! box). I'd be interested to find out everyone's feelings with this information in mind.

 

....Still reading...

 

I'd never heard of the first sale doctrine, but it makes sense.

[yvonne]

Being the worst curricula junkie, I buy a lot of texts and workbooks from the used board to be able to have them in my hands to look at. Waaaaaay more than we could actually ever use. If it turns out to be something we do use, I'll buy new from Rainbow, but most of it we don't.

 

Or, I'll buy used or new stuff, including workbooks or things like EM's reproducible books, & never get to it.

 

Is it legal to resell workbook or reproducible books that you've bought, looked through, but never actually used?

 

What about things that you look through get a few ideas from, but never directly use? (For example, a Shurley manual or workbook? Or a DITHOR student workbook?) Would it violate copyright to resell those?

 

yvonne

[melhouse]

I view Evan Moor's reproducible books differently than consumable workbooks. The EM books are intended to be reproduced while the consumables are intended to be used by one student (unless permission is given).

[Lovedtodeath]

Being the worst curricula junkie, I buy a lot of texts and workbooks from the used board to be able to have them in my hands to look at. Waaaaaay more than we could actually ever use. If it turns out to be something we do use, I'll buy new from Rainbow, but most of it we don't.

 

Or, I'll buy used or new stuff, including workbooks or things like EM's reproducible books, & never get to it.

 

Is it legal to resell workbook or reproducible books that you've bought, looked through, but never actually used?

 

What about things that you look through get a few ideas from, but never directly use? (For example, a Shurley manual or workbook? Or a DITHOR student workbook?) Would it violate copyright to resell those?

 

yvonne

The way I understand it, it is only illegal to make a copy of something and then sell either the copy or the original. But, I can see that this thread seems to make an assumption that anyone selling consumables has done this, and now we have numerous posts that are indicating that this is not always the case.

 

Personally, I have one workbook I do not use at all (in the back of WWE). One that I use the material from to enter into StartWrite (How to Spell) and one that I used page protectors and dry erase markers for (Cuisenaire Rods Activity Book). Since I have not made an exact copy of any of these things, it would be okay to resell.

----------------------------

Now I am still wondering if it is legally binding when Winterpromise asks that their customers not resell their Program Guides? Or is it merely a suggestion or a favor they are asking?

[KidsHappen]

Here is a good article on this subject. http://eclectichomeschool.org/articles/article.asp?articleid=388

 

Quote from article:

 

"No portion of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopy, recording, or otherwise, without expressed written permission from the publisher. Permission is granted for copies of reproducible pages to be made for use within your own family.

 

This is a generous move, and one that Mrs. Rushton is in no way required to make, but she’s a homeschooling parent too (Most homeschool publishers are!) and she’s on a tight budget too (Most homeschool publishers are!), so she understands the financial needs of a family and helps in any way she can. Note, however, that she is not giving anyone the right to make copies for other people."

 

This is an excellent article that pretty much sums up my understanding of copyright law.