You have a point, there. In one case, single mother, you would have to assume they've moved away from their sin, repented, until you could "know" otherwise. On the other hand, the woman who had an abortion that refuses to see the wrongness (for lack of a better word) in their actions and refuses to repent (as is used in most of the examples I've read), is someone standing behind their sin. IOW, unwed mother decides to shack up, or strip or prostitute or something, it's different. She probably would not be as welcome. If she's bragging about her sex life, again, not as welcome. Unwed mother who "sees the error of her ways" and turns from it, well, fully accepted, right, because we have to forgive and forget, especially if they've returned to the right path. Woman who got abortion and sees nothing wrong with it, demands it was the right thing to do, not so welcome. Woman who got abortion and repents, again "sees the error of her ways," very welcome. ETA, imho.

We use this for the dogs, but it could probably work just as well for humans (we don't mind deet). Boil one slice of lemon in two cups of water and let it steep until cool (covered). Strain into a spray bottle and voila! Also, we put tea tree and eucalyptus essential oils on a bandana and tie them around the dogs necks, that lasts for about a week... maybe you could make a little collar for yourself? I know it sounds rediculous, but it works for the animals. Now that I think about it, though, the lemon spray is more for fleas than anything else. Also, we use about five different things (cedar chips around/in dog house, brewers yeast in food, vinegar in water, too), so who knows what is working, but it's worth a try anyway. Also, if you are going to be near power you could just bring a fan. They can't fly in wind (or so I've heard).

Which is why I don't believe the government should be involved in health care. I never said they didn't have to deal with the financial consequences, I said treatment should be left up to the individual. Where did you even get that from?

My dd is going to be 13 in December. She's been wearing a bra since 10, and she needed it. She shaved her armpits last weekend, she needed that too. :( So far, with the legs, so good, the hair is long and blond and she has shown no interest in shaving those. She's had her periods for a year now. My dd looks like my little sister. She's a lot like me, in that she is not interested in growing up. Iho, it looks too messy. I'm hoping she keeps the messy verdict for some time to come. Unfortuneatly, she feels one way on the inside and looks very different on the outside. She's 5'5 and rounding out (iykwIm). She dresses like me, jeans and t-shirts, and that almost makes it worse, because she looks like an adult. I've seen grown men hit on her :ack2: and I think she sort of knows they're flirting, because she gets very uncomfortable. I told her to tell them she's 12 or to mention middle school (as in, do you have any kids in middle school, maybe I know them). I wish I had stay little pills, or an island, or could send her to a convent for the next few years, or that she had a unibrow or something. Instead, I've got 5'5 blond hair green eyes and a full shelf covering up a sweet little girl. :(

I answered this is the other thread, but I'll post it here too :) I think we're meant to love everyone, but that does not mean that we have to be friends with them. IOW, love your neighbor, but if your neighbor is a drug abuser, love them from a distance. Let them borrow eggs and milk and don't expect to get it back. Show them the love that Jesus told us to have and help them when you can, but that does not mean you have to let them move in or help them shoot up. You don't have to drive them to their dealer's house or become an accessory to their crimes. You pray for them and you help them in every Christian way you can, you just don't allow them to drag you into their sin. It makes sense to me anyway ;)

Doesn't that mean, you love them, but you don't wallow in them. IOW, love everyone, but if someone is doing something wrong you remove yourself from them. I have neighbors that drink around the clock, I don't condem them, I'm not rude to them and I DO love them. However, I don't go out with them, I don't invite them to my home and when they come over to borrow things, we sit on the porch. I love them, I wish they would go into treatment, but until they do, I have to love them from a distance because it's not good for me or my family to be around that. I would be absolutely livid. That "friendship" would be over, without question. Your follow-up does make me want to rethink things, but really, no, that friendship would be completely over. I understand, it's in how you're raised to look at things.

It's up to the individual. Same as dnr orders, up to the person. Why? Because it's THEIR life.

LOL, Alice most of my family is from up there ;) I'm from the Northern Neck. We don't really want people to move here. It's not US, it's the realestate people and other people from elsewhere that are selling the land. If we're nice, it's because we were raised that way (we call it well-mannered or polite), it's not necessarily because we like you. We are capable of friendship, but the odds are if your conversations revolve around how to make things better (ie, a few more stores, less woods, more buildings, better roads, [in summary, making it like wherever the heck you came from] etc), then you are going to have your heart blessed and your back stabbed repeatedly.

:grouphug: It's gotten really humid out here :( I wish it would just go ahead and rain. How's YOUR weather going Joanne? Just think, this baby must be incredibly great, because you have to wait so long :)

Or, this COULD be an opportunity for them to do something simple that would make some people very happy ;) Lol! I live outside of Colonial Beach, and if you google it, you'll see they've had their phones off the hook for ages now :lol: It's pretty sad when the next town over's so full of problems that the state police REFUSE to investigate.

I meant, do I call Robb Whitmen (or whatever his name is), the legislature, who? The more I think about this the more irritated I get. I know! I'll call my grandmother, she'll know who to bug :)

I tried, I really did, but I just could.not.read.it. That's why I didn't post in the group. I was hiding under a rock, hoping noone would notice ;)

It's funny you should say that, because my great-grandmother's sister died from an abortion. Oma used to insist that Ivy had not had an abortion, but had fallen down steps... now I have to wonder. I completely agree with you, now I just wonder who to write and pester.

I was just going to do some searches for cheap eating. Thank you for this, it comes at a perfect time.

If you give me some time to borrow the book from the library, I'm all over this :) I've always wanted to read it, but never got around to it. Do you want me to drop you a note once I get the book, or just bump this post?

My cousin had this problem too. She refuses to call her two miscarraiges abortions, but she knows that is how they are reflected in her medical records. What really concerns me is that, imo, it makes it appear there are no physical issues in the past (my cousin's cervix is uncooperative) and even makes it seem (as it did for my cousin's second pregnancy) that any issues that come up arise from a voluntary source. IOW, the reason your present pregnancy is difficult is because of your previous abortions. Well, no it's not. It's because of the SAME issues that caused my previous miscarraiges. :grouphug: I wish I knew WHY they stopped differentiating.

In a case like yours, Impish, most pro-life people would have agreed it constituted a medical emergency. There was nothing you could have done to change it. I'm sorry for what happened.

I found that the funniest line in the whole thing :lol:

Ah. Just fyi, not all pro-life people are anti-everything. Some of us do see birth control as important.

I doubt ending abortion would infringe upon the pill, that was legal before abortion. There's a lot of support for the morning after pill, too and most pro-life people I know do see it as a better alternative. As far as IUDs go, I don't see them being affected by abortion either. It's considered birth control. I won't use one, because the way it works doesn't mesh well with me. IOW, with the possible exception of the morning after pill, I don't see where abortion and these things fit together, or why they would lead you to vote pro-choice (if these are your only reasons).

See, I'm wishy washy as far as the morning after pill and some IUDs are concerned, but abortion is very clear to me, especially at 6 (or in some cases 7/8) weeks, when there is a heart beat. I understand the confusion. I used to waffle too. On one hand, it's wrong, on the other, didn't God give us free will? And so, who are we to take that away? The thing is, we're protecting someone else's life. The right to choice, infringes upon the right to life. You see a big difference between a 5yo and a fetus, but are their lives worth any less because of their age? Is anyone's life worth more or less than another's? In some cases, I'll say yes (see also, the death penalty), that criminal's life is worth LESS than those that they took and those that they may take in the future. :grouphug: I'm sorry.

:party::hurray:

Because, we humans come up with the laws and the systems by which they are upheld. In my opinion, a human being that has no regard for the lives of others negates their own claim on life. We, humans, decide based on the actions of another if they represent an ongoing threat to the people around them. In those cases it's more of a crime to allow that person to continue living (a gift they've already seen fit to end or destroy for others) and continue their actions. Well, it would depend on when society decides that the child knows the difference between right and wrong and knows (really knows) the consequences for their actions. It used to be 18 was the magic age of adulthood and knowledge, but our society in the US is moving more towards holding younger children accountable for their actions according to adult standards. Whether or not that is right is a matter of debate. Fwiw, I don't think so. As Peek always says, murder is (technically) a legal term. That being said, it all depends on your point of view. A person who has negated their claims to liberty and the persuit of happiness could also negate their claims to life, itself. We remove the other two rights for periods of time, because of the unlawful activities one might participate in. We remove the final one (life) in those states that do, because that person's crimes are so heinous as to make other options unsuitable for the remainder of the population (they're a continued threat). I understand your pov, but (oh there's always a but, isn't there?) should it be proven scientifically, that the act of abortion is ending a life, would you change your mind? IOW, Peek is not so off base when she compares unborn children to African Americans. Our (people's) ability to let others share our status (as people) is sadly lacking. It takes us FOR.EV.ER to finally accept another, different group to join our peoplehood, iykwIm. There are STILL groups of white people that refuse to acknowledge the peoplehood (sorry for the made up word, but it works ;) ) of other races/colors. Some religious groups deny the peoplehood of those that disagree. We dehumanize each other over the most trivial of reasons, not the least of which is convenience. It was not convenient to say that the slaves were people. It was not convenient to say that Jews were people. It was not convenient to say that women were people (poor empty skulled creatures). It was not and for some IS not convenient to say mentally handicapped people are people. It is not convenient to say that feti are people. The biggest problem I see with all the debate is that it does what it always does. Both sides know they're right and they dig in their heels SO much that the middle ground is kept empty. I try not to judge all pro-choicers, but there are some that are very deliberate in ignoring any evidence or ideals to the contrary, there are some that could very easily say infanticide is not wrong. Those people, that rank the youngest members of our society, or the handicapped, as lower than abused pets sicken me. I'm sure you feel the same about the more vocal, violent and disturbing of the pro-life side.

Because there is a difference in taking an innocent life and taking the life of a person that, for all intents and purposes, negated their claims on it. IOW, some might believe that you can become such a danger to society and the people around you that you have negated your right to life. I don't think the death penalty is wrong, but I do not agree to how it is presently used in the US. There are miles of difference between a child and an adult, an innocent and a criminal.

That's a little disturbing... the idea of a video for everything, not the idea of changing diapers, lol. I "learned" as a teen... it didn't work out too well for us. My dh was the one that explained all the ways I was wrong about their use.