In this case, it's because I'm concerned that our criminal justice system has become too much revenge and not enough actual consideration. I also wonder what the point is? Nothing will make what happened to that poor girl any less horrible. We could castrate these kids, mount the goodies and hang them next to Justice and she will still have to suffer through the trauma all the same. I worry, Impish, that we move too far from the ultimate purpose of the justice system. I worry that my view of the goals of the justice system are horribly askew. I also worry that I am blinded by my own opinions on Christianity, in that... if we only save one person, it's all worth it. With so many people crying vengeance, I worry that I am on the wrong side. That and what a pp pointed out, that it's not being handed out regardless of social status, gives me pause. Who are we trying to punish? Should we punish someone to make a point? If so, how do we choose those lucky ducks? Is it only the ones that can't afford to demand justice?

I'm sorry Impish. I just wanted to be able to see the other side and reevaluate my feelings on this.

Can you apologize for making him feel that way? If that wasn't your intent, I mean. It's a sort of non-apology, except if you're genuinely sorry he responded like that.

That's where I'm at. I just don't see how treating him like an adult would be effective in punishing him, getting him to see what he did was wrong, or protecting society. IOW, he's not going to get "better" in jail, he's going to learn that the law is unfair (whether or not that is a correct assesment), he's going to learn that men are animals (or further affirm that belief) and eventually, yes, he's going to get out and when he does, imo, he'll be worlds worse than he was going in. I can't see how time in jail is going to change his views on sex to the better. I can see how it would make him much much worse. I was not trying to imply what they did was an accident or anything less than horrific. I just wonder if tagging him as an adult is right or just. I can understand in the case of a repeat offender, but I wonder that we don't sentence them to life in a mental hospital, instead of in jail (where there's chances for parole). The sealing of the records... well, I'm wishy washy on that. Most people do change when they 'come of age' and not allowing their past to follow them is a good thing. I think people change more in the years between birth and 23 than they ever will for the rest of their lives. Heck, most kids change more in one year between birth and 23 than they do for the sum of their years after 23. I know the sealing is supposed to allow children to be adults, without the discrepancies of youth hounding them, but I do wonder with sexual predators if that is the best thing, or if there could be some way of differentiating. I'm confused about that too. I thought it was only the girl's family that was from Liberia. I will say, in the great USA we don't allow ignorance to get you out of trouble. It doesn't matter if you didn't know something was illegal, you can still be charged. That's a hard question Impish. If this is someone that had completely changed then I'm not sure I could be against it. I knew people that were very very confused teens and they are really torn up about the things they did. They've begged forgiveness and some of their victims carry less of a grudge against them than they do themselves. I know people can change, but I also know that it's hard to change if you're carrying a sandwich board saying everything you had done wrong. From an outsider perspective, seeing the communities where sex is treated like changing your sheets (you're wierd if you DON'T do it and often), I wonder if the damage done BY these communities can be undone at any point. I don't want to contribute to the loss of these kids and their youth, not if they can be reclaimed. It pains me that they are paying for the lessons that their society has layed out for them. It grieves me that this little girl was the victim of this society and these boys. As a mother, I want to rend them limb from limb for having done such a repugnant act, for having hurt her in such a deeply wounding way. As a mother, I want to make them pay, pay PAY for what they have done. As a mother, I also worry that we are laying crimes at their feet that they do nto understand. I worry that we will met out a punishment that will far excede the crime. I worry that justice will not be done, but rather further injustice. You are right, gang rape, any kind of rape, is wrong. I'm just not sure that putting him in prison will right it.

Me too, only there was just one example (hi dd). I understand it, understood it then although I was incredibly upset to see the girls who'd had abortions continuing on in church. Sometimes, the only way to see the light is if people stop pointing it at you, iykwIm.

I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with what I posted. Anyway, the new medical scheme they've got going is going to put us trillions in the hole. Six one half dozen the other. Treatment should be up to the individual (or their family, lacking the individual's ability to speak for themself).

I'm trying to figure out why he's not a child, then. What are the benefits or reasons behind him not being considered a child. DD is 12 and, imo, she's very much a child. She's a child that's getting ready to enter the whirl wind of change from child to adult. I think of this kid, in the middle of this whirl-wind of change and I wonder, IS he really an adult? Does he grasp the full signifigance of what he has done and is he emotionally and mentally mature enough for us to place an adult yard stick next to him? Someone convince me, please, because all I see here is a kid that's looking at a future of rape in jail, followed by a couple of steps into public just to wind back up in jail, the only world he would've known his whole adult life. IOW, I just want to understand. :(

:grouphug: I hope you feel better soon, and thank you for the compliment. I do agree that people use the 'love your neighbor' as a way to make Christians appear hypocritical in their treatment of certain situations. I can love you, even if you're wrong. I can love you and say, no, I will not help. It's funny, because everyone agrees on tough love for some subjects, but others... well, they see tough love as something other than love and it's not.

:iagree:

I thought they were charged with molesting her? I was wondering about the difference between the charges and the terms used in the article. It is a horrible case. You don't believe he could be "fixed" so to speak?

Imo, treating him as an adult would be making a victim of him. So many times the oldest person involved gets the heaviest charges, especially where juveniles are involved. It would not surprise me in the least if it was his age, as the oldest, that got him this charge. So, b&e, drug use, etc., all should be charged as adults?

:grouphug:

The 14 yo boy was oldest of four boys, ages 9+, who molested a young girl. He's being charged as an adult, the other three are charged as juveniles. Is he an adult and should he stand trial as one? What are the benefits (or consequences according to your pov) of him being charged and punished as an adult, for society, for justice, etc? IMO, he's still a child. Treating him and charging him as an adult are only going to mess up his head worse than it's already, obviously, messed up. The treatment he can expect in jail/prison are only going to make him more of a monster and any hope of reclaiming him for the good of himself and society will be nil if he is forced to serve time as an adult. This is, imo, the epitome of how our justice system fails.

I'm very leery of things that are "okay" for my kids, but dangerous for me :glare:

Not really, but it's because I do believe that abortion is murder and that the decision is based on the idea that they will get to have the same life they had up to that point. Going through a pregnancy and labor and delivery and giving your child away for a better life, that takes more than I have to give. I think out of the three scenerios it is the mother who gives her child away that I would have the most concern and care for. The mother who keeps her child gets to see all the joy and that is comfort. It is based in snark and I know that's not right, I should have as much compassion for one as the others, but there is a part of me that says, you thought you took the easy route, now walk it, alone.

Well, he didn't seem to think your dcs were too bad off, he gave the money to someone else :) Really, this is why I would worry about putting ds back into school. Not because he's behind or slow or anything, but because change takes an adjustment period and there would be many things to learn and relearn about learning in a school atmosphere. Of course, they're going to blame the parenst of previously hs kids, but how much of it is because they were tossed into a completely different learning situation? Please, I've changed math programs and noticed there was a time of adjustment, because the structure was different. It's not all because their undereducated, it's because they were taught with a different method.

:iagree: My first thought was, has she completely lost it? Lol, thanks for the scary laugh.

I'm reading "Mother of Pearl" and at one point a woman says: Mean is mean. And a woman mean is weak, not strong. Most women get so caught up in meanness, they forget what they goin' after in the first place. Besides, who in the world said wh*res don't need kindness? Who you think God's gonna look down on--the whore or the one who hates the wh*re? Really, it goes with the moat in one person's eye/plank in your own. When we judge, we create the mechanism for our own judgement, the ruler to measure our own sin. And when you think about it along those ^ lines, it seems, imo, much clearer. Who's worse, the sinner or the Christian who hates them for it?

It is horribly sad. I do wonder at the charges being molestation, but they use "rape" in the article. Was she raped? 14 and charged as an adult, that's upsetting too. As for the parents, I feel for them in that they lost their daughter. How terrible to believe something so wrong, that she brought it upon herself. How terrible to lose your daughter. I hope the girl is able to make it past this, to see herself as more than a victim and to place the guilt where it belongs. I hope it gives her a sense of wariness, but not fear. How terrible :(

Recipe???? I have four cans of pie mix that have been gathering dust and we're so broke it's rediculous! I would LOVE to surprise dh with bread tonight.

I'm rereading the New Testament, it's been quite awhile and some of my friends on here I have put it into my head that I need to study up, lol. One thing I've noticed is that Jesus DID sit with people that were considered beneath contempt, and he gave them a chance. The ones that turned from their sins and chose the right path stayed with him, but he didn't hang around waiting for everyone. He'd go into a city and if they refused to follow him, he would leave. He said they would be sorry for having refused him, but he said it as fact, rather than opinion (iow, you'll get yours in a tone of anger vs. you'll get yours as a matter of fact). He moved on. I think that means, try to help, but don't stagnate there, don't let a non-believer keep you spinning tires in one spot, when there's work for you elsewhere. It seems for every answer there's a million new questions. So, I don't think we're supposed to "judge" others, so much as make a judgement call for our own good. You tell your kids right and wrong and when they're little you met out punishment to help them understand those rules and the idea of consequences. You don't condemn them, but you do condemn their actions. Am I making any sense whatsoever? Lol... I'm trying.

The mean and spiteful part of me says, she got the abortion so she wouldn't have the responsibility, well, then her life should be great now, on her own, why would she need my help? As for the unwed mother... well... there are caveats here, for me. I've known girls that did not turn away. They kept their babies and good for them, but at what point do you let them see the results of their actions. Baby number two, three, four??? At what point do you let them fall and fall hard, so they'll see WHY they need to turn away. The lady's right, in that, sin is sin and either way, if they haven't seen the error and turned from it, I can't see enabling them to continue.

Maybe it's time to stop listening? It sounds like she's using you like a whipping boy. "I'm not comfortable speaking about this, I hope everything works out. I love you, thanks for calling, goodbye now."

ETA: I realized I only expounded on my earlier post, so I'll answer your questions, sorry about that! I'm not saying not to offer help. There's a difference between loving and offering help, and accepting a sinful lifestyle or bringing someone into your family. IOW, I would not turn away a vocally pro-choice person who needed something, nor would I chuck them out of my car if I was giving them a ride. I WOULD refuse to drive them to an abortion clinic and refuse them a forum in my home to tout their beliefs. I think, maybe, you're missing the greys here. IOW, I do not have to allow someone into my FAMILY, I do have to love them, but I do not have to give them a platform. I do have to pray for them, but I do not have to give them shelter in my home if they are not willing to conform to the house rules. Let me see if I can put this another way. A person is hungry, so I feed them. They are full and they decide they want to watch porn on my t.v. set. Well, I do not have to let them do that. A person is thirsty and I give them water. They're an alcoholic and water does not quench their thirst, I do not have to buy them liquor or wine. A person is ill and I have to pray for them and minister to them, but I do not have to call a shaman or witch doctor, if that is what they believe in. A person is in need of shelter and I give them a room, but I do not have to allow them to have their s.o., contrary to the teachings of God, in that room. I can love a homosexual, but refuse to entertain their arguments for their life style, as well as refuse to allow them pda in my house. I can love a sinner and refuse to allow them to tout their sin over my table. Is that easier to understand? You always love them, but you do not have to entertain them in their folly.

I see that as a matter of semantics. The government does not want to condone vigilante actions, ie someone taking matters into their own hands. So, assisted suicide is illegal, but there are so many ways to get around it (do it yourself, for instance). Also, where other people are concerned, there's always the worry that the person seeking death will "see the light" and change their mind, once it's too late, then the person who was doing them a favor becomes a murderer. That is one thing that, imo, should rest completely in the hands of the individual. If they're too weak to do it themselves, then I'm sorry, but they should not ask someone else to get their blood on their hands, iykwIm.