I thought about just pm'ing you and begging for your plans for next year!!! Could you please tell me more about the TM for Human Odyssey (I have the student text here... and Western Civ... and Western Civ: a Brief History for high school!!!) Is the TM basically just the answers to the (many) questions found in the text and the Review sections. Or, does it help you with discussions, have suggestions for further study or projects, etc.? I have SWB's book here, too. (blush!) How are you thinking of using it? Will you try to have ds read the whole book? I would be tempted to plan on just using it when ds "wants to go deeper in a subject", but frankly I'm afraid that day may never come! Thanks, Beth!

Thanks, Lori! You have really encouraged me.

I don't mean so much what your dc does - that is in WTM. But, how do you know that your child is actually learning (and, learning the important stuff)? I am just about ready to purchase TOG *just* for my high schooler *just* because it will hold my hand and help me hold ds accountable for actually learning history, not just creating a list of happenings that he can turn in before he reads a book. I'm afraid without a "cheat sheet", I won't know what to discuss and what to expect him to learn. But, golly, with my dh having to make *so many* cuts at his office, I hate spending THAT much money just to have someone holding my hand for really one subject. (I love WEM and really don't have qualms about doing the lit - it is really the history that has me flummoxed!) Does anyone use the Spielvogel less as a reference source, and more as an actual textbook to be studied? Do you use the Teacher Edition and give tests, etc.? (I know - that's not really "classical education", is it?) Maybe I should just give in and do SWB's Ancient History book? (I really hate the lack of color! And, knowing the series won't be finished by the time we are done with high school.) Openly "Quaking and Quivering" ;) and hoping you guys will show me something I haven't thought of! Thanks!

I really like Sonlight's Read-Alouds, and even though I have gone back to a more WTM-focused method, I still read out loud most every day (and my kids are much bigger than yours!) It really does help build "together memories", and that was one thing I really cherished when we first started homeschooling. It is also a good way to build in "language" and "culture" without much effort on your kids' part. =) You needn't use Sonlight for that - simply choose a book from the SOTW-AG or a WTM list and read. As far as the library, I have the same situation over here. I request online, and they will hold the books for 3 days once they arrive. But, if they have some and I'm still waiting on others, I can just call and tell them to please hold them until whenever, and they have never given me any grief about it. That way the library is just a once-a-week trip. One thing that helped my 2nd grader with narrations was to simply tell me the thing he liked best, or the most exciting thing, or the most important thing. Whatever he came out with was fine, but then we would talk about that, and I would help him think of a more concise way to say it. Then, *I* would write it out and he usually liked to draw a picture. Once that was easy-peasy for him, he started to own the process and writing them out on his own. Best wishes!

Perhaps it isn't just "homeschoolers" who are "competing". At our local high school, there is a fast track program which enables high-achieving students to graduate high school with an Associates (2-year) Degree; and they are guaranteed acceptance into any college/university in the state with full scholarships. And there are many more of these students than I would have ever imagined. How in the world can I compete with *that*? (Me, with my back-woods Georgia education and a very phlegmatic 14yo who, like yours, would much rather spend his school hours where there are 14yo girls than at home???) Seriously, it's useless for me to try to compete with that or with anyone here. But, I *do* have to be aware of what is "out there" - my ds will in some sense be "competing" against those people sometime in the real world. I try to not to worry; but it does seem as if some kinder, gentler season of homeschooling is over whether I like it or not, and I *do* constantly feel "inferior" in some way.

Having started hs'ing half-way thru 5th grade because my ds couldn't recite basic math facts and didn't know how to write a sentence, I know a little bit about what I speak. Part of my first post was trying to warn the OP that R&S is very demanding. Depending on your dc and his experience, it is not necessarily the walk in the park, completely mom-free experience that some here have. And, I agree that ABeka's 5th grade book (which we did in half a year in 5th grade), did help my ds learn the parts of speech very well. I think it was a great thing, and that it did help "pave the way" for R&S-6. But, having said that, I think if you are going to start doing *anything* and you know there are gaps in learning (From public school or whatever), then you simply have to give yourself permission to slow down and extend each lesson until it's mastered. And, you as the teacher have to be willing to extend the practice and drill for your student beyond what the curriculum provides. You have to give yourself permission to put the book aside, if needed, and review and drill and work on whatever is causing problems. The book is merely a resource - you are the teacher. Reflecting back on all the silly songs and accents and games and internet extras and daily review I infused into the ABeka, I think it's safe to say *I* taught my ds his parts of speech that 5th grade year. The particular publisher just happened to be Abeka, but really *any* grammar book would have worked. With echoes of Ria dancing in my head~

We struggled through the first half of VfCR-A this year in 8th. (I'm not saying that's the ideal time to start - we had a late start to hs'ing and gaps to fill in spelling-wise.) Finally, in desperation, I ordered the Teacher Guide and it is *wonderful*. Yes, it makes it a very teacher-intensive subject. But, it is only taking 10 minutes or so - less time than it was trying to get my ds to make flashcards and study them. And, he is actually remembering the definitions instead of just saying, "Oh, yeah, I think I've heard of that word." But, if you have a strong reader who doesn't mind writing flashcards & learns well that way, then I wouldn't worry about the Teacher Guide. I would just try the recommended routine in WTM.

What I *really, really* like: There is constant review. (we need this! ~ymmv) The writing lessons are sprinkled thru-out, so I do not have to plan for them. The writing lessons can easily be used cross-curricularly, and do not take "extra" time in addition to writing about history, science or literature. Do my kids moan? Sometimes. But, they would moan at times no matter what we used for grammar. They are fond of telling me they will never LIKE school (esp. on Friday after a week when nothing has gone very well - LOL!) Honestly, I cannot say that my kids just fly through it. My oldest didn't start R&S until 6th grade, and 6th and 7th grade (especially 7th) were very challenging. This year we are doing R&S 8, and he *is* constantly saying, "Why couldn't they have just explained it like that LAST year? It's so much easier this way!" But, I think the truth is that it only *seems* easier because he is revisiting what we sweated through last year. My 5th grader also has had lots of lessons this year that review concepts he has already mastered, and on those days he sometimes completes the lesson without me. So, I'm not saying it isn't possible. hth, Rhonda

Mine are currently in 5th and 8th, and my basic general guideline is that they write *something* each day. That might be Rod & Staff, history, science, or literature. The 5th grader has to write either an outline or a well-structured paragraph. (Well, that is the *goal*, anyway.) The 8th grader varies somewhat. A science lab write-up might be only two paragraphs, but history could be anything from a very long paragraph to two pages! I think last year (7th), I tried to have him write about a page. More important than the length (to me) is that the writing is logically structured and answers the question that was asked. However, as a basic guide for length, I use the length of the writing assignments in Rod & Staff. As those move from one paragraph to two/three paragraphs, cross-curricular writing length seems to naturally increase even without my being a bear about it. I would guess my 5th grader takes about 15-20 minutes to write a paragraph (this includes agonizing about what to say!). My 8th grader says it takes him about 15-20 minutes to write a page, and I guess I have to trust him. I am usually very involved in helping my 5th grader sort through what to include, the most logical order, and how to best say things; but my 8th grader is very independent in writing now. (And, no, this was not always this case!!!!) I also (Very Uncreatively) recycle the Rod & Staff writing lessons to cross-curricular assignments. For awhile, my 5th grader has had to write either "a paragraph in the order of time" or "a paragraph in the order of importance". This week, we covered taking notes and turning them into an outline, so I'll be trying to find a subject that's briefly covered in both the Kingfisher and SOTW so that we can "take notes" from both, and then synthesize those notes into a single outline and then write a paragraph. (I bet we end up not writing the paragraph every time -that's alot of work done already!) Frankly, I doubt I have had them writing every. single. day. this year. It's not been our best year, but they are still making progress. Just start wherever they are, and move forward a little bit every day. Best wishes!

I had been looking for this as well, and figured it must have been a figment of my imagination. Thanks for asking!

Jessica, I have been using a syllabus from Mother of Divine Grace for Henle Latin. It has been wonderful because I don't have to worry about "planning", but I am free to tweak it (we aren't in an on-line class requiring certain assignments to be turned in at a particular time). They are fairly inexpensive (especially compared to an online class!), and really do provide that hand-holding I have needed. And (the best thing), I never worry about if the assignment is "too hard" or "too easy" - this perpetual worry is the bane of my homeschooling world. I did check, and it looks like they also have syllabuses (syllabi???) for lower grades as well: http://www.motherofdivinegrace.org/curriculum/syllabus.cfm?id=6 There may be other companies that offer something similar, as well. (And, I could have never taught my oldest ds to read. We tried for 2 years, and I really think his 2nd grade ps teacher was a miracle worker! No guilt here.)

Thanks!

I read in a post on the "Old Board" that the Nance is kind of like an aerial view of all of logic, while Traditional covers less more deeply. I'm hoping that we find it so. We have the Nance videos, and ds always understand the explanations. But, there is still nothing to "hang" that new knowledge onto. No stories or illustrations. It simply doesn't relate to what has been learned before, nor does it seem to be especially applicable once the test is taken. So, what we are doing is basically cramming for the exercises or the test, memorizing charts and such, and then promptly forgetting. (My basic high school experience all over again - LOL!) That said, we have had a difficult year. Perhaps if we had been able to finish Intro before Christmas (the original plan!), it would have been much easier to keep all the info in mind.

You can use a different edition. I had a standard text and the California Study Workbook. The order of the chapters (and sometimes the sections within the chapters) was slightly different. Occasionally, there was a concept in the workbook that wasn't in our text; and vice-versa. But, I bought them both used (either ebay or amazon), and the Workbook was only $5.00 or so total, so I didn't mind the occasional inconvenience. What *was* helpful was having the Answer Key to the workbook. I lucked out and found a "parent's" edition on ebay. It was $20 or so, but definitely worth it!

Melissa, Which BJU would you recommend for someone who had finished Apologia Physical: BJU Physical or Biology? Thanks, Rhonda

Praying for you all!

Thank you so much. I was worried about ds feeling he had "failed" iykwim (rather than understanding that I as a teacher wasn't informed enough to overcome the sparse-ness of the text). I'm feeling much better, and will probably go ahead and plan on Trad. Logic for 9th for him.

So, did you finish the Intro & Interm *and* you're doing Traditional, and with no complaints about having to "re-do" it all? If so, that is very encouraging! Thanks for posting!

Thanks for posting! That looks like a great plan for my next two. Just wondering, do you think 10th grade is "too late" for Trad. Logic? My original plan was just dropping everything logic-related (maybe going back to logic puzzles and re-reading Fallacy Detective, but nothing "formal"), and then doing the online Trad Logic class in 9th.

Today Ds-13 took his test on Unit Three of Introductory Logic (Nance). Or, should I say he *looked* at it. :glare: Given, this has been our first week of full-blown school since November 7 (due to a hysterectomy), but it is as if we had never cracked the book. (And, unfortunately, I do mean that for *both* of us - LOL!) It just so happens that we covered the chapters on "Distributed Terms" and "Testing Syllogisms by Rules" this week, and that the sample chapter on-line for Traditional Logic is on "Distributed Terms". DS & I both agree that the Trad. Logic better explains the concepts behind the rules, making it easier both to understand and remember. So, I'm really thinking we should stop with the Intro/Logic, and try for Traditional Logic later. I'm considering the following path for him, and I would love your thoughts: 8th gr, 2nd semester: Art of Argument 9th grade: The Argument Builder - maybe spread this out over the whole year 10th grade: Traditional Logic I and II (and maybe add in the Kreeft book rec. by Memoria Press, since he will be an older student?) 11th grade: Classical Rhetoric from Memoria Press (or whatever is out by then???) Does this look ok? What would you change???? (I'm really undecided if we should do Traditional Logic *or* The Argument Builder first. And, it just occurred to me after proofing my post, maybe I should do Art of Argument and Argument Builder both in 9th? Boy, just when ya think ya got it all figured out, huh?) Thanks for all your help! Rhonda

One of the items on my "If I ruled the world wishlist" is that Jay Wile had actually taped himself giving the lectures that are in the Apologia books, rather than writing them out. Then, ds could watch the "lecture", and a simpler book could review the main points, with the study guide questions sprinkled throughout the chapter (rather than all at the end). My only real "complaint" (easily dealt with) is that my ds tends to imitate Wile's writing style excessively.

Probably all computers are different, but we had to (Individually) set the microphone and the speakers of the headphone as the default. And then, we had to figure out how to un-mute them. It's been a while, so the details escape me. I *did* think ours was a lemon, as well, before getting all the settings right. Of course, two days later, dd pulled the ear pieces (and their wires) off. Hope you have better luck!

(For some reason whenever I try to look at The Argument Builder, my computer freezes, and I have to re-start. So, I apologize if this info is on that website!) DS13 is about a month away from finishing Introductory Logic (Nance). By chance, do you know if *Intermediate* Logic and The Argument Builder would be repetitive? Or, should we aim to finish the Nance series this year? (background to this: since my hysterectomy, I *feel* like we are WAY behind. I'm thinking if I could get away with *not* doing the Intermediate, it would be a blessing time-wise! Not to mention that Memoria Press has me doubting that the math-based logic is really all that beneficial. :confused:) Thanks in part to your post in my other thread, we'll be starting TOG Year 1 next year (your blog has been very helpful!). And, I'm planning on using the Writing Aids. So, I'm guessing you would probably advise us to do *just* The Argument Builder? And, finally, is it meant to be a one-semester course, or are you speeding it up? (Oh, I bought the TC course - looks like a great way for *me* to cover it all first! Then maybe we'll do that second semester.) Thanks for all your help! Rhonda

I know the WTM instructions for this book seem pretty simple...BUT... I would *really* *really* like the same information in a text book with exercises and a Teacher's Answer key. (Or even an online class would be great!) I am just not relishing the thought of spending time outlining this for myself so that I can tell whether or not ds has outlined it correctly. I can already tell that the "find an example" will be a constant refrain of, "I looked...really...I just couldn't find anything." Realistically, I think this will be one of those things that gets knocked off the schedule, and never finds it way back unless I have something to help me hold ds accountable. (Why it is so much easier for me to stick to my guns when someone else has declared what the assignments should be, I don't know!) Any ideas? Thanks, guys!

Thanks, OhElizabeth! I really needed this.... =) Rhonda