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Just summarizing the last few threads GRIN... I've been reading these boards for awhile, and I've listened to several of my children's friends complain about their teachers' threats and complaints at the beginning of 8th grade, and I've concluded that it is perfectly normal to spend the entire 8th grade year struggling to begin to learn how to: -Write a short well-organized expository paper -Produce work that has a heading and date, is legible, has full sentences that actually answer the questions, and isn't half question marks -Use an assignment book to keep track of one's assignments -Make and use some sort of study guides -Show one's work in math (math becomes complicated enough that one needs to show the work now) -Type And it is normal to spend the rest of high school learning how to: -Use more adult reference material -Skim so one can sift through a greater quantity of material -Write a longer expository paper -Read at an adult level -To do research Eighth graders don't have to arrive at high school able to do the second list. It is ok to spend high school learning to do those things. High school is long - four whole years. Yes, it is nice to arrive knowing them, and lots of students do, but lots of other students' academic skills are slower to mature. They still will arrive there by college, when students do, indeed, need to have those skills in place. Lots of people say their children made huge leaps after the age of 16. So... if your 13yo isn't behaving like a 17yo, IT IS OK. DO NOT DESPAIR. They keep growing after 13 or 14. In fact, they grow tons, just like they grow tons between the ages of 2 and 6. Part of that growth is a new awareness of themselves and language and the world around them and their own reasoning powers. This awareness, unfortunately, also leads to some of the less attractive 13-15yo behavior. They are two sides of the same coin. If my own children and their friends are anything to go by, they themselves are horrified by some of their own changes and tendencies, and just as glad when they ease off later on. Growth isn't always easy, fun, and pleasant. Remember the terrible twos (or threes)? They were learning to be children then. Now they are having to start all over again and learn to be adults. Please, please give them lots of sympathy and tolerance along with bolstering their still immature self-discipline and judgement. And talk to them, lots. And listen to them, really listen, to the new person they are becoming, not just the old one they were. And mourn the child that is disappearing, because they are, too. And help them to look forward to the nice adult things, like being able to drive and being able to get together with friends more easily. And remember that they are still young. Hugs to everyone who is going through this. I'm going through it for the third time GRIN. HTH -Nan (I've left off various science goals, like learning to make observations, to draw, to design an experiment, to keep up with current discoveries in a field, and to use lab equipment because I haven't heard them discussed enough to be able to tell where the 8th grade/high school line normally lands.)