Thanks, Elinor! =) nt

OK - if I decide to use TOG as a crutch for high school, can I still keep my younger ds following WTM for logic stage? I have all the books, I feel comfortable keeping the logic-stage schedule rather loosy-goosy, and - oh, yeah! - I have all the books! Really, I've been so pleased with the results WTM has given my older ds, so I see no reason to change what has worked. (Yes, I know I *could* do anything :glare:, but would a TOG veteran advise it and say, "Oh, yeah, sure - no problem." Can you tell dh is no help here?) Also, if I use TOG with Writing Aids for high school, would it replace the Rhetoric, the Grammar *and* the Writing recs for high school in WTM? I'm guessing Writing Aids might not be as thorough, but certainly adequate for high school? (Probably not the best word choice) Oh, and do they still have the deal with one of the online writing programs? I haven't seen that anywhere on the TOG website. Thanks for all your help! Rhonda

I think this is the last hurdle in my quest to finally make a decision about 9th grade. (I think!) I *think* I'd really like to study as many other worldviews (Hindu, Buddha, Taoism) as possible in high school, reasoning this is the last chance I'll get to discuss these things with ds. But, then I thought maybe SWB was trying to limit the seemingly infinite "possibilities" by sticking to West Civ. But, then she wrote "The History of the Ancient World", which *is* about the *whole* world. But, then TOG has been so overwhelming to so many people, and it seems to pretty much try to cover all of World History. Maybe that contributes to its overwhelming-ness?? idk - these are just the merry-go-round of thoughts rattling in my brain. Would love to hear yours! Rhonda

My dh received a very expensive after-shave lotion for Christmas two years ago, and it had the smell I've always associated with "old men". Yuck! Needless to say, I forced him to stop using it, even though it was something we would *never* have spent our own money on. OTOH, I love using certain household products because they smell like my Grandma!

Great news!!! Congrats!!

Cool ~ I am looking at a used copy of Smarr now as a possibility for next year. I do like the scheduled reading, the vocabulary, and the recall questions. I do wish he had some more teacher's notes for the more involved questions, but I guess nothing's perfect!

Is there a reason you wouldn't use Smarr again for next year? (I just can't imagine forking over all the $$$ for TOG, and then using only the lit section.)

This year, we aren't concentrating on primary sources because we are finishing SOTW-4. When we do have time for primary sources, I'm trying to use the internet as much as possible. For next year, however, I have a book called "Sources of the Western Tradition" that has many sources, with introductory background, and review questions for each one. I believe, given the notes and highlighting, that it must be a college-level text, but it's not intimidating at all. I've even considered using *it* for my spine instead of Kingfisher. Here is a link on Amazon. There are probably later (and earlier) editions. Mine is the 6th: http://www.amazon.com/Sources-Western-Tradition-Ancient-Enlightenment/dp/0618473866/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228836173&sr=1-4

nor would he have to clean any of it up! (it does just disappear if you throw it under the bed, right?)

QUOTE=Colleen in NS;680705]I see that no matter what you use, it is not so easy, because learning/teaching outlining is learning/teaching thinking skills. Yes! :iagree::iagree::iagree: Good point, Colleen!

Kathy, Do you recall if SWB recommended speeding up (or slowing down) Logic stage history so that you would "naturally" fall into Ancients in 9th grade? I have 3 years to plan, but I'll have a 9th grader and 12th grader - I wonder if she would recommend the 9th grader doing Ancients while the 12th grader finished his cycle with Moderns?

I use the KIHW, because I really do find it easier to teach outlining/how to write an essay using it rather than any other history book I have (quite a few!). That said, I'm not certain it's *necessary* to teach outlining/essay construction from one source at home given the numerous library books out there in the world. (It does make life easier on me!) I just checked for you, and the KIHW starts with a section on archaeologists and what they do, then they begin "history" with the Ice Age, and the first farmers in Mesopotamia. So, it sounds like you'll be pleased.

Thanks for taking the time to post! I saved it in Word as well. nt

Try looking through this thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29376&highlight=Kingfisher

Peela, Is that the same as Spielvogel's "World History: The Human Odyssey"? Thanks!

But, what if for outlining you suggested using something like The World Book Encyclopedia on CD (mine was less than $10 - but, it might have been used). Then, the Usborne Encyclopedia of World History (the internet linked one), which doesn't have long enough paragraphs for 3-point outlines, could be just the spine - suggesting names, places, events to look up in the World Book, as well as dates for timeline and some maps. ETA: Of course, you could always outline from "other books", too. Just, it is sometimes nice to know I *have* a good source *at home* that doesn't rely on the library and a plethora of books. I have used SOTW for my oldest in logic stage, but as my younger ds approaches Ancients in 6th grade, I'm leery of re-doing it for some reason. I think because I really appreciated your comments in Atlanta about delving into what the student finds interesting, and emphasizing primary sources. That just did not get done nearly to the extent I would have liked using SOTW in logic stage. Basically, I always feel under the gun time-wise trying to do SOTW and Kingfisher (IHOW) and so other stuff gets spread out few and far between. I am excited about trying to give my student some of that lee-way next year, but it will only happen if we leave SOTW. (tho' the advantage of using SOTW as a "first time through history" has been that we loved the stories, and we retained them! I certainly don't regret using it.) Thanks Susan for all you do! It is hard to get used to that "free-falling" feeling that comes from not using a textbook, but I'm so glad we found WTM.

Well, I think part of the reason her recommendations change is *because* we are able to share here on her forum. And, sometimes people recommend things here, even though they're not the "recommended" WTM items - and that's a good thing because not everything that works for SWB will work for everybody. The new WTM version is coming out soon (February), and that should have *all* the new, updated recs. That's what happend with R&S and Abeka. The first edition recommended ABeka, then (because of the forums!) SWB tried R&S and really liked it - so that was the top recommendation in the second edition. I will *really* love to see the new Logic Stage History routine. Yes, at a seminar I attended this summer, she recommended using the KHE as a spine to take notes from, and to fill up the timeline with, but not to outline. Unfortunately, the old Kingfisher really fits in better with the current plan (there are summaries in the text that match all the tabs recommended in the notebook, for instance). But, from what I've read, it went Out of Print (OOP) just after the first edition was released. What to do but try to make the new KHE work, you know? Some of the updates *are* on her blog - if you scroll down, in the bottom left hand corner, you can click on "The Well Trained Mind", where there will be a link to "Susan's blog". hth, Rhonda

Like Colleen, I aim to do one outline (main idea of the paragraph only) and one paragraph. (Not on the same day or topic) If you wanted, you could always let him dictate a paragraph to you, and then use that as copywork/handwriting the next day. I wind up doing that quite a bit, since sometimes we seem to run out of "history" time - and that way the work still gets done. (And my ds could *never* have enough handwriting practice!) I started 5th grade asking for 3 sentences only - a topic sentence and two or three supporting details.

Oh, sweetheart, I am praying for you!

If you are musical, try putting lists to melodies you already know. We *always* sing our State of Being verbs to a song I heard on "Between the Lions" one time. After three years I really, truly can't even type the phrase "State of Being" without that blasted song coming to mind - LOL! It works!! I also use the Schoolhouse Rock videos alot for definitions of parts of speech and things like "questions that adverbs answer" kind of thing (yeah - we changed the words a bit, but it still works).

Even *I* have trouble figuring out the exact details the SOTW-AG wants if I haven't first looked at the answers. I/We might end up with some of the same details if I assign a "narration" based on one topic, to be supported by details from the story. But, sometimes, to me, they seem a bit off-kilter - they don't flow right or something. Even so, I am still planning to use the outlines for some stories whenever we start our next six weeks. Usually when we have only one day to cover a story, and we won't have time to outline another source. But, I plan to use the discussion questions, then go over the outline together, and give them hints. (For example, if the missing part of the detail were a person, I would read the given part and then ask "who?"). I am dreading, though planning to use, the re-writes as well. I fully expect to see the exact words of the outline as my 5th grader's "paragraph" -LOL!

Thank you, Nan, for stating this so plainly. I never saw it that way before. I just saw these *LISTS*, and no way to narrow them down. You know, if there were time, I would like to study philosophy - but I'm envisioning "spending half a semester struggling through something we barely got"!!! And, I'm not sure my ds will appreciate it the way *I* would. It was all the novels I saw in WTM that really drew me, but I've been scared if I choose just stories, we'd be missing out. So, thanks for setting me straight!

What he needs to do is plan a paragraph which highlights ways in which New Years celebrations are similar. This will be the first paragraph of his body. (Get info from the Venn Diagrams) Then, he needs to plan a paragraph showing ways in which New Years celebration differ. This will be the second paragraph of the body. This could probably be expanded to more than one paragraph. ***** Alternately, he could write 3 paragraphs explaining the similarities and differences from 3 different Venn Diagrams. I didn't look at the whole test - maybe that's what they're looking for? ***** He needs to go back and be sure that he's included information from at least 3 documents. Then, he needs to write a brief introduction, and his conclusion. The introduction should be creative, if possible. A nice conclusion would restate some of the differences, and end by highlighting similarity (we're all the same, in spite of our differences). Neither one needs to be very long - one or two sentences would suffice, I would think. If he can't do that on his own, he will learn a lot if you do the work with him. (I know it was meant to be a test, but...) fwiw, I'm fairly certain my 5th grader would balk at this assignment right now as well. Maybe by the end of the year, when he's had some history assignments combining info from more than one source, it would be a more reasonable assignment for him (my son - not yours!). But, we had to take a break due to surgury, and will get to combining notes from more than one source between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Anyway, I just wanted to encourage you - I think that's really a fairly difficult assignment!

Nan, How old were your kids when you did Levels 6 & 7? Out scenario: My oldest will finish R&S-8 this year (or come as close as possible, anyway - LOL!), and I'm thinking about switching to an Abeka and Writing Strands combo. Would Level 6 be ok for 9th grade?

:iagree:, too I find that especially in 5th and 6th grades, I *have* to talk my kids through their outlines and their summaries. Otherwise, they take all day to get their work done. In 7th grade I noticed there were times my ds had read the material, and really wanted to get an outline or summary done while it was still fresh in his mind. So, I'd read that and then we'd discuss it. No real designed set of questions, mostly just, "What did you think about x?" or "Why do you think x happened?" or "Do you think x was right?" or "What do you think should have happened?" I especially try to find "Why?" questions, and comparisons with other happenings we've already studied. for OP: SL does not have *questions*, but they do summarize the most important information and you can quickly and easily use their notes to ask your own questions.