No outlining. Yes to crafts, coloring and review questions. hth!

I think it would be "appropriate". But, you should probably head over to the high school board and search for the logic threads over there. Our experience this year (with an 8th grader who started hs'ing in 5th gr) was that Intro Logic was easy enough to understand, but there wasn't enough instruction or practice for the knowledge to stick. After watching the first lecture in "How to be a Superstar Student" last night, I think I understand why - because we simply had no prior knowledge of logic (even after doing Mind Benders and the Dandylion Logic books) that connected with the Intro/Logic material. We quit Intro at the point which just happened to coincide with the sample chapter available for Traditional Logic by Memoria Press: http://www.memoriapress.com/descriptions/Logic1.html This course has always been highly recommended on the high school board for students who are doing Algebra in 8th grade. I should have listened! BTW - SWB said in Atlanta that from now on she will be recommending Traditional with the DVD's over the Introductory, so I think either one would be good.

I agree with you, Crystal, that the outlines in the Activity Guide are basically meant to "bullet point...the major facts" - basically a formal way of taking notes. (Although it aggravates me to no end when the bullet points of the "outline" are not listed in the order they were presented in the story!) My major agreement with Julie is that the primary purpose of outlining per WTM is *not* notetaking. The purpose of outlining per WTM is to analyze how expository writing is structured. Four years of outlining other people's essays, and eventually re-writing them, is practice for high school (expository) writing. This is why I would recommend another source than SOTW for outlining, anyway. After so much narration-work, I can't imagine a WTM student not understanding how to write a narrative essay. And, narrative essays are not the main fare of high school/college writing. Expository essays are. A student who follows the WTM Logic Stage suggestions and outlines short essays weekly will develop an intuitive feel for how to structure an essay and for using a formal voice. Then, in high school, the writing recs will lead that intuitive head-start even further, showing further possibilities to consider, as well as pit-falls to avoid.

Yes, I have used the fordham site in the past, along with websites about particular people/events. And I have also picked up a couple of primary source books off Amazon. (they just popped up as "you might be interested in these") There have also been primary sources in many of the supplemental books from the library, and speeches and letters and such. I even had a Word document on my old computer that had the WTM questions printed out with space for ds to write in. But, he never wrote very much! We could discuss it - just like you mentioned your discussion about Buddha - it just never seemed to get written down. And so, I don't think I got everything I *should* have gotten out of them. Like, if I had just been a better planner (how many times did I find something interesting *after* we'd already left that person/event far behind?!?!) that he would have *enjoyed* primary sources. (ha - I can hear him say now he *never* enjoys school!) Or, maybe I'm just nervous because I can't *prove* that we did them? (shrug!) I guess, looking back, that my ds does realize what primary sources are and how they're used. We've touched on them, they just haven't been central. And, given that WTM says to choose *two* Jackdaws, maybe they're not *supposed* to be central? I *do* think that too often, though, we (the board) focus on outlining and reports, and ignore the primary sources, and that they could probably really liven up logic stage history if there were a more user-friendly format for them. Thankfully, in planning ahead for 9th grade Ancients, I have been relieved to see that there are many primary sources in Western Civ, and SWB gives her own analysis of some more obscure sources in History of the Ancient World. Those are priceless because she discusses how historians take two or more differing accounts and then deduce what probably *really* happened. Definitely food for thought. Maybe I'll have to put 9th grade aside for a bit, and plan some 6th....

We did a few weeks of HO Year 2 when ds was in 6th grade. And, technically, it kind of follows WTM. It does have students outlining KHE, and creating reports on various subjects. And, there are some other books thrown in for "extra research", some primary excerpts, and a few lit books - tho' not nearly as many as on the WTM Lit list. It did not suit our needs because ds had not been through the "stories" of history, and so the outlines and reports were about meaningless names and events - there was no background knowledge to build upon. So, it was very boring! It is also very "rigorous". Personally, I think they ask for too many mini-reports and the extra reading (Story of Mankind?) is on a much higher level than the average supplement book listed at the end of the history chapter in WTM. I did like having the timeline and map work decided. And, I *liked* the ideas for the mini-reports, but I would just cross some out. (I like that in WTM the child gets to *choose* what interests him and run with that, rather than being told, "research THIS.") But, our experience was shadowed by the fact that we got a late start to homeschooling, and had many gaps to fill in. If you have a really bright, loves-to-write, strong reader who is familiar with the story of history, then it might be great for you! ETA: FYI, HO is also set up by region (study one area from A-Z, then study the next from A-Z) rather than chronologically, which made it hard to combine with my younger one, who was using SOTW-2.

You have summed up quite well why I personally really dislike the "outlines" in SOTW-4. I constantly have to feed my dc (5th and 8th) the question that isn't asked at the end of the half-line. And quite frequently it is necessary for me to look at the answer before *I* can figure out what the author of the outline intended a particular point to be about. One thing that has helped the past few weeks (we are on Ch.28 now) is to go over the discussion questions with my boys while they each have a pencil and their outline. Usually the questions are phrased so that they roughly correspond to the outline. Occasionally I will still have to say, "OK, see on your outline where it says..." and then they "get it". (And, occasionally, I still have to tell them what to write - LOL!) But, filling out the outline while doing the discussion has been helpful. I would really recommend teaching outlining from another source. (Maybe a 4-5 paragraph encyclopedia article if you have encyclopedia's at home?) Or, choosing a 4-5 paragraph section of a SOTW "story" to outline. I really only use the SOTW outlines for those chapters that are "skim-through" chapters. IOW, it's nice to have been exposed to it, but doubtful it will ever come up in their everyday lives (or be followed up on in another chapter). For chapters/stories I think are important to really learn, we outline another source, then use SOTW to help make it more "human". hth!

:iagree: WTM recommends about 3 hours a week of history. I end up doing a lot of trimming of what I'd *like* to do because I try to keep this time frame in mind. We do history almost daily, but only for 30-45 minutes. And, if my "dream plans" exceed that in reality, I cut them on the spot, or let it slide into the next day. I do squeeze in a bit more via Read-Alouds and assigning history topics instead of the suggested writing topics in R&S. There is just only so much one mom with 3 kids can do time-wise. ;) Of course, YMMV, IMHO, and different strokes and all that. It's all good!

When we started hs'ing my boys were in 2nd and 5th grades. They're now in 5th and 8th (yikes!). We are finishing up our first time thru the history rotation and SOTW-4 this year, and I am conscientiously ignoring the fact that I am in utter denial that I will have to plan for my soon-to-be 6th grader and face the dreaded question, "Will we repeat SOTW-1?" :lol: Seriously, earlier this year my 5th grader wanted to dump SOTW-4 he was so enamoured with Kingfisher (again, we use the old one). Now that the newness has worn off, he likes our current plan of mixing the two, and after posting above I asked him did he *want* to repeat SOTW-1. Like all things school his response was, "I don't know, Mom. You're the teacher. You tell me what to do, remember?" :glare: So, I think I'm going to wait until the new edition of WTM comes out before I decide for sure. I would *like* to do a more student-researched logic stage for him since he has those stories embedded somewhere already as background (unlike my older ds). But, if we end up depending on SOTW for that research, then I know we'll still be in good shape, you know? hth!

The Book of Virtues (p 333-334) has a short piece (very short!) called "Cicero on Friendship". And, The Story of the Romans has several pages which mention Cicero. Probably not quite what you're looking for...

I think the hardest part about doing TWTM is being confident that you are doing the right amount - not too much, and not too little. It's so much "saner" to know so-and-so-who's-done-this-before (whatever curriculum you choose) believes *this* amount of work is what a 5th grader (or 8th grader or whatever) is capable of producing at a level of excellence. It is hard to be confident when you're tired, and everyone needs you at the same time. I have been much better at sticking to my guns since writing out six weeks of lesson plans at a time, rather than trying to wing it. It is time-consuming, but that is because of the reading. And, when we did SL, I always read everything anyway, so I was still "always planning" according to my dh. *I* just can't teach unless I've at least read the material and have a basic understanding of what's important for my dc to grasp. I don't think I could have taught Logic stage history without SOTW, because we started in 5th grade, and I had never been through history in such a thorough way before. We have tried several tactics, but the one which suits us is to read/outline Kingfisher first. (But, we use the old one, and SWB doesn't really recommend outlining from the KHE anymore...) SOTW has always been our "Extra" Reading, and narration material. With SOTW 3 and 4 I added in "Making of America", which is one of the history rec's. This year (SOTW-4) I am adding in "Growing Up in the People's Century" and a few odds and ends - whatever struck my fancy from the list at the end of the history chapter. I absolutely *don't* do everything! However, I do Read-Alouds, and usually they are history related. I choose these from the WTM Supplemental Lit List, or Sonlight usually. This is our favorite part of school, and it makes history easy-to-remember. I highly recommend it! (Again, we don't do one for *everything* - there isn't time!) We don't really do the "go to the library and find info on what interests you"; I wish we did, but my kids are not motivated enough to do that! They have learned alot without it, though. I do wish I had bought at least one Jackdaw - just to see it, and see how to do primary sources "right" - LOL! Then, decide is it worth it or not for me. Primary sources have been hard to do, and I wonder if having the Jackdaw would give me some needed hand-holding. (Ah, well, I get to start again next year - :D) Best wishes!

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Hey, Charon! Glad to see you about. You and your dear wife have been in my thoughts and prayers lately, though I have lost your blogs and don't really know what's up. Just please tell her & know that positive vibes are being sent your way.

Didn't read all...just wanted to say I think Sonlight does a *great* job at teaching the teacher how to teach. Even tho' I now use pretty strict WTM for history/lit, I do a much better job because SL taught me how to cover so many different areas while reading *one* book. (I know, this probably doesn't make sense to you now, but hopefully you will try it, and then you'll know what I mean - LOL!)

Oh, Kelli - WOW! Congratulations to all!! So glad I've been cyber-stalking you (even on the old board) and takin' notes as I get ready for 9th grade! Thanks for sharing your journey here.

I think it would be very artificial for me to specify what sentence types my ds must use ahead of his writing down his own thoughts (either my 5th or my 8th grader). And I imagine that my 5th grader would become more concerned about meeting that requirement than writing a logical progression of thought. I *do* go through his narrations with him, and suggest changes: where the sentence order needs to be tweaked, which sentences are too long, which could be combined to better show the relationship between the two ideas. My 5th gr ds is very good about including a question or an exclamation in just about every narration, even thought I have *never* suggested to him to do so. (I wouldn't *worry* about it if he didn't, either.) My point in mentioning it is just to say your dc's writing voice will grow as he grows, and reads, and re-does these writing assignments. I never required compound-complex sentences in my 8th grader's narrations, but he uses them because that is how he is *thinking* now. His thoughts have grown beyond simple sentences, and (thanks to R&S) he knows how to punctuate those sentences now, so he naturally uses them. (Actually, I will probably teach him to eliminate some of the more complicated punctuation in writing that others will see, since too many people won't understand the proper uses of semi-colons - LOL!) "Coach/edit/add elements to infinity..." - *that* I agree with. =)

We are finishing SOTW-4 this year, and I know what you mean. But, we are already using Kingfisher - my son is in 5th grade. He is already wanting to drop SOTW for the rest of this year! He loves the idea of being able to read a spread, and then *choose* the thing that interests him for extra reading/research. He likes the precise-ness, I think. And he's eager for some independence. My plan right now is to mix in some of the Guerber reading for his literature next year. We only have the Story of the Romans here, but it is based on alot of Herodotus and Livy, which would be considered literature in high school. OTOH, my older ds *LOVES* SOTW, and I bet he would gladly repeat it for high school - LOL!

We did the 2nd half of Core 6 when my older ds was in 6th grade. We started that year with the Medieval List in WTM, and we continued reading Shakespeare and Arthur stories out loud. But, the 6th grade Lit List is ... mature? (Especially The Green Knight) IDK - they just weren't nearly as engaging as the Ancient myths, and they were just a huge jump up in difficulty. When we got to Dante, I just couldn't imagine my ds handling either the actual text *or* the abridged version I was able to find (which bored me to tears!). We went back to WTM for 7th and now 8th (4th and 5th for my younger ds), and have been very happy ever since. There are just so many good books for those time periods - and there are great abridged versions if the originals are "too much". In a couple of years when my younger is in 7th studying Medieval, I will probably mix in the Core 6 books with the WTM List. Best wishes!

Thanks, Melissa. Glad to hear I'm not alone in my thinking! (In my ds's defense, I can't imagine him "fighting" me on it. Dragging his feet, feeling lost, staring into space not knowing what to say, feeling like nothing he writes is "good" enough...yes. But not in an ugly way. Not sure you meant to imply that, just wanted to be more clear.) We're just already so far "behind" (and, yes, I know we're homeschooling - which means we go at our own pace, and therefore can't be "behind"). I'm just looking to eliminate the unnecessary so that the mandatory things don't so completely overwhelm us.

Alana, This is great! Thanks for the link.

I usually have a Read Aloud going at a separate time of the school day from history. These are almost always historical fiction, set in the time frame of the larger history-era we're studying that year. But, history is independent of that. So, this year, for example, I was still reading Across Five Aprils, set during the Civil War, even though our history studies had already moved on to the early 1900's. In the same way, I keep our literature separate, though definitely related. We use the literature lists in WTM, which are chronological. But, there's not a one-to-one correspondence of history topics and reading assignments. This week, we finished up Call of the Wild, set in 1897 Canada in literature; but, we are studying fascism & Mussolini in history. (And our Read Aloud is Sing Down the Moon, set in the 1860's somewhere on the American frontier.) That's just how *we* do it. The great thing about homeschooling is that there is no "right" way. Best wishes!

Wow, Laura! Thanks!! And thanks for asking, Melissa! =)

So, since we're not encouraged to do "creative writing" should I force my ds to write a short story? Can we just read the lessons and then discuss how they apply to the literature we're reading? What do you think? I was thinking we'd just skip this, but then I think Writing Strands has the kids write a short story, too. If anyone knows for sure, I would love to know. Also, how strict should I be on the "research paper"? The sample is 880 words, about 15 paragraphs. This is turning into a scheduling nightmare. He's had this assignment alongside the grammar assignments for the past week because I figured in public school this would be an "at home" project. But no matter how many times I told him to take more notes, he didn't really take *different* ones. (He really is a "just the facts" kind of guy - his notes are so sparse!) Today I helped him figure out 11 good paragraph topics (again -- he lost the first outline - ugh!). And, I went through one of the books with him looking for additional notes on the first two topics - hoping he would see that even little things should be written down. Should I just sit with him and go through the book and help him take notes on everything? Kind of like when he was learning to write a paragraph, and it seemed like it was all me? Is it "OK" if this paper is "all me"? I really thought we weren't going to be doing a research paper until high school, but I also don't want him to be "behind" iykwim. Thanks for listening! This wasn't a stellar day. :glare:

Well, in the past 24 hours alone I've gone from just *knowing* we needed to send ds to public school next year (I mean, they have a *TV studio* on campus!!! how to compete?) - to just *knowing* we should homeschool and being elated at the possibilities of my dc knowing all about the progym and ancient Greeks and philosophy - to crying in despair after reading his attempt at his first real "research" paper, and reluctantly conceding that anyone else would just stick the kid in school and let him fail - to being somewhat cheered by my husband and realizing that though is much still to work on, that we have come *so* *far* in such a short time and *knowing* that we WILL homeschool, and somehow it will all work out, even if I don't have it all figured out ahead of time. It is definitely a journey - not only for our kids, but for us, isn't it? By all means, I enjoy it. I'm so over beating myself up because I *have* to learn things alongside my kids and because I can't be all things or remember all things. Oh! - now to go tackle that research paper...

I had forgotten about timed essays. Thanks for mentioning them!

Yes! This is what I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it so well! I simply have other priorities now than remembering Calculus (or Trig for that matter). Knowing how to cover all the needs of a family of 5 on a tight budget might not be particularly glamorous, or highly sought after information in Classical Ed circles; nevertheless, *that's* what I've been learning & excelling at the last few years. (Well, that and learning how to correctly punctuate complex-compound sentences with conjunctive adverbs - LOL!)