COST OF WTMA

[London]

Ok. Someone help me understand this. A science class at WTMA is 650. 2 semesters of labs are 650. So we are talking 1300 for 1 science class? I like WTMA, I really do. Just trying to figure out if I can justify the cost.

 

What are others doing (secular options please).

 

 

 

 

[Kalypso]

I don't have a secular option for you, but I'm with you. We can no longer afford their science classes.

[snowbeltmom]

Derek Owens offers physics. ChemAdvantage offers chemistry. Both are less than what you have listed for WTMA

[Kalypso]

Honors Biology, Honors Chemistry, and A&P at Blue Tent.  Asynchronous for $650. This price includes a lab. 

[...................]

It's supply and demand.  They probably have enough students that they either need to turn some away or raise the prices.  It's also probably to keep excellent, motivated teachers on-board.

 

That said, my son's entire year of community college in our state, including parking, fees, AND textbooks (which we mostly get rentals through amazon but also use the bookstore) will be about 1500.00 for 24 credits.

 

Saving money over private online classes was NOT why we chose to have our son do early CC.  HOWEVER now that we realize how expensive those classes are we are quite relieved to have a fun and viable alternative!  

 

Also, I just wanted to say that good online classes tend to be a minimum of 750 per year.  1200 is definitely up there.  But there is a very small, tight market for excellent secular online Science courses for homeschoolers, that are not tied to a major publisher either (like K12)....so there's  really a niche market there.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Calming Tea

[Guest]

Just to point out--that is a full two credits of science (1 for the core class, 1 for the lab), so your student is earning 2 science credits. If you do the full class and the full lab, you're still only paying 650 per credit--and most science classes online that I'm aware of are 1 credit courses.

 

Doing the full course plus one semester of lab still gives you a lab science credit, plus a total of 1.5 credits (so it's a class and a half, basically).

 

In addition, students can take only the lab for a lab science credit, or only the core course for a non-lab science credit.

 

Taking both together is really the supercharged science option.

 

Hope that helps...

 

SWB

[Random]

It's supply and demand. They probably have enough students that they either need to turn some away or raise the prices. It's also probably to keep excellent, motivated teachers on-board.

 

That said, my son's entire year of community college in our state, including parking, fees, AND textbooks (which we mostly get rentals through amazon but also use the bookstore) will be about 1500.00 for 24 credits.

My closest state university doesn't even charge as much as the private online homeschool classes cost.

 

Edit: AND you get to use the school's lab equipment.

 

My son absolutely loves Clover Creek Physics. It's an outstanding course.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Random

[rdj2027]

Just my personal thoughts.  I would be afraid that giving a credit for the lab and a credit for the lectures would look like I am padding the transcript since most colleges assume that the basic science classes have a lab component, be it virtual or hand-on.

 

 

[mirabillis]

hmm. i hadn't seen this and here we were in the process of signing up for science 9th grade. we already took biology last year - and it was a single class that included labs. so it's changed? no more labs in the regular biology?

 

that's a little over the top to be separate as like said above, it seems like padding transcripts and many schools don't really 'accept' online labs anyway so hate to pay extra when it's debateable it's even a slam dunk for admissions.

 

eta: wow, just looked it all over.  can't believe it's not science+lab any longer. clover creek does it. that's too expensive 650+325  (975 is ridiculous!!!) for single bio credit (whether 1.5 credits or not)- we don't need 1.5 credits for science, but it does need to be science+lab for 1 year credit. i may reconsider using WTMA at all - as we were only using for science anyway.

 

oh! and saw they changed the text for biology. i thought to use my son's holt text again. glencoe is  $150+ text! that's pretty cruddy too. UGH.

 

back to the drawing board

Edited February 15, 2018 by mirabillis

[chiguirre]

i thought to use my son's holt text again.

MPOA uses that Holt text.

[historymatters]

Open Tent Academy:

Don't Trust Atoms, they Make Up Everything! High School Chemistry

 

Uses Holt.

[historymatters]

My closest state university doesn't even charge as much as the private online homeschool classes cost.

 

Edit: AND you get to use the school's lab equipment.

 

Isn't the state university subsidized?

 

Private online homeschool providers are not.

[The Governess]

I thought you were only supposed to do one semester of the lab and it was only offered in the spring?

[Guest]

The feedback we got from both parents and faculty is: Folding the labs into an existing one-credit science course means that students end up doing more work than they're getting credit for, and teachers feel pressured to simplify and reduce effort required for the labs since students are already covering a full year's worth of material without the labs.

 

There are many different ways to fulfill high school science credits, but we have chosen to offer a rigorous comprehensive principles of science class, and then recognize the laboratory element as the separate and demanding part of science study that it should be.

 

As always, YMMV.

[madteaparty]

Isn't the state university subsidized?

 

Private online homeschool providers are not.

I have no views on WTMA pricing or credit policy, but comparing price per credit seems an odd way to compare classes. I mean, public school is free, right? My community college is something like $70/credit. 4 year university (part of the same state system as community college with transferable credits) is 400/credit. It seems an odd way to compare, that’s all. Edited February 16, 2018 by madteaparty

[Roadrunner]

I have less issues with cost but more issues with having two courses essentially to do what is usually done in one course in schools. So if a lab and a science course is worth two credits, then it’s essentially two high school course loads. I am wondering how that fits into the larger picture. If a child is doing all the courses from WTMA, one would do Rhetoric in addition to Ancient Lit, plus Ancient History, bringing the writing load to a staggering amount. Add to that a two credit science course and before I have added a foreign language, math and an elective, the day is over. And we are no wimps in this house.

I appreciate the desire to inject rigor. At the same time I wonder what WTMA considers a typical 9h grade lineup if one uses WTMA exclusively and how many hours of work is estimated for that load.

I own 3rd edition of TWTM (prior to the online courses), so maybe this is addressed in the new edition?

 

As far as costs go, yes, the total cost is huge, but not the highest I have seen. SOH charges $4,500 per course.

[mirabillis]

We only need 1 annual credit for science each year. So paying $975 is too much for what could be done for a single credit course (we don't need 1.5-2 credits of science per annum). Still debating... as we love Mrs. Up, but we can't make a science+lab work either timewise or financial-wise. So we'd have to make the choice to go non-lab only, and that just may not be worth it. I'm weighing options. A shame as we ADORE Mrs. Upperman!

[Jilly]

There are many different ways to fulfill high school science credits, but we have chosen to offer a rigorous comprehensive principles of science class, and then recognize the laboratory element as the separate and demanding part of science study that it should be.

 

I didn't realize that was the policy this year. Are students allowed to enroll in the lab section without enrolling in the main course? 

[The Governess]

I have less issues with cost but more issues with having two courses essentially to do what is usually done in one course in schools. So if a lab and a science course is worth two credits, then it’s essentially two high school course loads. I am wondering how that fits into the larger picture. If a child is doing all the courses from WTMA, one would do Rhetoric in addition to Ancient Lit, plus Ancient History, bringing the writing load to a staggering amount. Add to that a two credit science course and before I have added a foreign language, math and an elective, the day is over. And we are no wimps in this house.

I appreciate the desire to inject rigor. At the same time I wonder what WTMA considers a typical 9h grade lineup if one uses WTMA exclusively and how many hours of work is estimated for that load.

I own 3rd edition of TWTM (prior to the online courses), so maybe this is addressed in the new edition?

 

As far as costs go, yes, the total cost is huge, but not the highest I have seen. SOH charges $4,500 per course.

I worry about this too. I wonder what the expected workload will be. For example, dd is taking Chemistry with WTMA this year and spends, on average, 2 hours in class, 1.5 hours reading and taking notes, 1.5 hours on homework, and 1.5 hours reviewing for and taking the weekly quiz. If there is a lab it can take anywhere from 3 hours to 6 hours depending on how complex the lab is and what sort of write up is expected (notebook only or notebook plus formal write-up). So on non-lab weeks she spends about 6.5 hours and lets say an average of 4 hours for each lab and there is usually a lab assigned every 2-3 weeks.

 

My expectation was that the workload for the regular class would be similar to what we do on weekdays, but that the lab component would be given its own dedicated class hour (there can be a lot of in-class time spent on going over how to do the lab and I can see how being able to dedicate this time to covering the weekly topics instead would be beneficial).

 

It looks like they will complete 8 labs per semester.

 

I really hope it's not a significant increase in weekly work.

[Tsuga]

I compare these to other private education options. When I purchase online or other educational options, I do not compare to publicly subsidized options like community college but to private and group tutoring, private and group lessons. The reason you wouldn't compare to subsidized options is that obviously public options will be cheaper. I mean, that's why I put my kids in public school. Even with exorbitant donations to the PTSA, top 10% property taxes, it's an amazing deal, primarily thanks to corporate taxes. It's not lower cost, it's just cheaper for me because others pay. But if you want cheap, public school is the way to go.

 

If you want private on the other hand, in my area, private lessons are about $50/hour, and group lessons are about $20/hour (for anything from rock and roll drumming, to physics through community college levels). $20 * 180 instructional hours= $3,600 for a very inexpensive group tutoring lesson.

 

The state pays for community college and the college doesn't pay taxes on revenues. When you go private, you pay much more.

 

I am paying about $300/mo for mere primary school enrichment. That's no lab, no HS credit, primary school level to middle school level.

 

If you're paying less, you are taking a risk of worse instruction, which is no biggie if the student is self-motivated, but a problem if you really need them to be honest with you and really work through issues with your student.

 

That said I looked at the price when talking things through with my child going to middle school. She's made a ton of progress and I want homeschool to be an option. We're willing to pay, and I'd do WTMA, but... I really hope she chooses the local high school + CC. Because private school is freaking expensive.

 

(And to add: the reason secular is more than religious is because for religious options, the church pays. The church pays in cold hard cash, through tithes, but also, they reduce costs by using free labor of stay at home parents, retirees, and other dedicated individuals. Secular private will always be more because the individual pays the full cost. Secular public is government, and religious private is church. Religious public is charter schools, double funding, but talk about the worst of both worlds. Just to break down why the costs are what they are.)

Edited February 16, 2018 by Tsuga

[eternalsummer]

It seems like a weird option; I've never heard of a high school that has a separate lab class for their science classes, especially their upper-level ones.  IB Bio 2 Higher Level is worth the same 1 credit as Intro Bio for 9th graders in most schools - it's just that if your kid is doing a class with a heavier workload, you might call it honors and weight it.

 

I also would never put 6 science classes on a HS transcript (Physics, Physics Lab, Bio, Bio Lab, Chem, Chem Lab) if the kid hadn't actually done 6 separate science studies.  Even for something like this, I'd probably just put (if I were listing it on a transcript), Honors Bio (Lab Included), or something like that.

[mirabillis]

we've decided to likely go with their Bio WITHOUT lab - and supplement with labs at home.

 

we only need/want 4 science credits through the high school years total.

we can't add on another 1/2 credit class that would meet a 3rd day per week

we can't ever afford a class that pushes $1000 - that will never happen

 

 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I didn't realize that was the policy this year. Are students allowed to enroll in the lab section without enrolling in the main course?

I’d be interested in knowing this as well.

[Penelope]

I kind of like the idea of signing up for just a lab, especially for a younger high schooler, and doing the book work at home. I haven’t been interested in the regular science classes, but with an eighth or ninth grader, lab was the harder part to “make happenâ€, not only to schedule in the day but to research materials, deal with inadequate instructions, instruct on the lab notebook and reports, etc. (although we did do many more than the eight per semester that WTM Academy schedules in their sample syllabus).

 

I probably still wouldn’t assign more than one credit, though, but that’s just me. I realize that many public and private schools do not do this number of labs in their one year courses.

 

I wonder if WTM Academy will be adding to their regular courses now that the credits are separated. They already require some additional reading and papers that many typical science courses do not, and maybe that helps justify them being full credits on their own.

[...................]

I compare these to other private education options. When I purchase online or other educational options, I do not compare to publicly subsidized options like community college but to private and group tutoring, private and group lessons. The reason you wouldn't compare to subsidized options is that obviously public options will be cheaper. I mean, that's why I put my kids in public school. Even with exorbitant donations to the PTSA, top 10% property taxes, it's an amazing deal, primarily thanks to corporate taxes. It's not lower cost, it's just cheaper for me because others pay. But if you want cheap, public school is the way to go.

 

If you want private on the other hand, in my area, private lessons are about $50/hour, and group lessons are about $20/hour (for anything from rock and roll drumming, to physics through community college levels). $20 * 180 instructional hours= $3,600 for a very inexpensive group tutoring lesson.

 

The state pays for community college and the college doesn't pay taxes on revenues. When you go private, you pay much more.

 

I am paying about $300/mo for mere primary school enrichment. That's no lab, no HS credit, primary school level to middle school level.

 

If you're paying less, you are taking a risk of worse instruction, which is no biggie if the student is self-motivated, but a problem if you really need them to be honest with you and really work through issues with your student.

 

That said I looked at the price when talking things through with my child going to middle school. She's made a ton of progress and I want homeschool to be an option. We're willing to pay, and I'd do WTMA, but... I really hope she chooses the local high school + CC. Because private school is freaking expensive.

 

(And to add: the reason secular is more than religious is because for religious options, the church pays. The church pays in cold hard cash, through tithes, but also, they reduce costs by using free labor of stay at home parents, retirees, and other dedicated individuals. Secular private will always be more because the individual pays the full cost. Secular public is government, and religious private is church. Religious public is charter schools, double funding, but talk about the worst of both worlds. Just to break down why the costs are what they are.)

 

 

I understand the logic here, truly I do.  But I feel like there's no point...

 

...we're talking about 15, 16, 17 year old kids about to step out fully into the world, anyway, and 95% of them are likely to go to a subsidized university - somewhere.  

 

I am not saying WTM academy is wrong for charging what they do- in fact you can see in my personal original post, I defended the cost, pointing out issues of supply and demand, excellence in teaching, teachers being more available etc.

 

BUT in the end, you have a 16 year old kid that can take the Science at a CC and pay about 200.00 (less for me, free in some states if you DE you just pay textbook fees), or 1200.00 for the science.  

 

I am just comparing OPTIONS, for homeschoolers.  

 

:)

Edited February 16, 2018 by Calming Tea

[Jilly]

I kind of like the idea of signing up for just a lab, especially for a younger high schooler, and doing the book work at home. 

 

This appeals to me too. 

[homefree3]

My dd took fundafunda biology this year and the lab work appeared  weak.  Signing her up for the WTMA Bio Lab section next year appeals to me.  

[Tsuga]

I understand the logic here, truly I do.  But I feel like there's no point...

 

...we're talking about 15, 16, 17 year old kids about to step out fully into the world, anyway, and 95% of them are likely to go to a subsidized university - somewhere.  

 

I am not saying WTM academy is wrong for charging what they do- in fact you can see in my personal original post, I defended the cost, pointing out issues of supply and demand, excellence in teaching, teachers being more available etc.

 

BUT in the end, you have a 16 year old kid that can take the Science at a CC and pay about 200.00 (less for me, free in some states if you DE you just pay textbook fees), or 1200.00 for the science.  

 

I am just comparing OPTIONS, for homeschoolers.  

 

:)

 

I agree completely, which is why private school is not and has not been an option for us, at least not most of the way. It would have to be exceptional circumstances or a shocking improvement in income. Ideally if we did homeschool I could take much of the math, and outsource the humanities or some classical courses for rigor and validation.

 

However, in terms of price comparisons, I don't think the cost of WTMA for a rigorous secular private education, is a lot. It's par for the course, even a full schedule. If someone such as me can't afford it, that's not because it's "too much" but because private school isn't a financially viable option.