Laurie4b Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 It's time to treat for fleas and ticks. I just called the vet and the Frontline is really expensive. Is there something I can get at a farm store or something that is not as expensive but is effective against fleas and ticks? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Tractor Supply sells Frontline and a bunch of other flea & tick formulas. I think the last time I wanted it I just went into the store and compared active ingredients across the boxes to get the best deal. ETA: Not sure what your vet quoted you, but TS does have it for $40 for 3 doses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I have been buying Advantix flea & tick meds from Drs Foster & Smith for close to 20 years now. There is no shipping cost on flea & tick stuff. Our vet tells us outright not to buy from him as he can't discount it at all. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+6+142+23033&pcatid=23033&r=655 They are having a sale right now and like most things, the more you buy, the cheaper the dose is. Right now, for a dog 55 lbs+ it's $122 for 12 doses, so just over $10 per dose. The smaller dogs' meds are a tad cheaper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjffkj Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Buy it online or if you have a smaller dog buy the front line for the biggest size dog and put all of it in a bottle. Then dose it out for the weight of your dog. Your vet can give you a syringe and help you with finding the right dose if you aren't comfortable figuring it out yourself. Front line is the only thing that works for my dogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Buy it online or if you have a smaller dog buy the front line for the biggest size dog and put all of it in a bottle. Then dose it out for the weight of your dog. Your vet can give you a syringe and help you with finding the right dose if you aren't comfortable figuring it out yourself. Front line is the only thing that works for my dogs Most vets will not do this, as it is in violation of EPA law. EPA regulates the topical pesticides (including Frontline), and it is illegal to dispense/use not in accordance with label instructions. I agree that this can be an effective method to save money, but no sensible vet is going to risk their license to save you a few dollars on flea product. So, figure it out yourself if you want to (be confident in your math, as you can poison your pets if you over apply), but please don't ask a vet to risk their livelihood and ability to practice medicine to help you do it. In fact, you should not ask the vet about this at all. It's just rude to ask, IMHO (and as a vet's wife, who would have a coronary if my husband risked his ability to put food on our table and pay off the 6 figure student loans and 7 figure practice debt . . . Your $50/yr is not a factor in our family's entire financial and professional security. OK, if you have a vet you hate and want to ruin, then, sure, ask . . . but if you have any liking or respect for your vet, please don't.) That said, I advise finding a vet who sells Trifexis, and get your dogs on that. Frontline isn't terribly effective any longer in many areas due to the widespread use of fipronil in both flea/tick products but also in agricultural and other large scale pesticide applications (termites, etc.) Trifexis/Comfortis, on the other hand, is very effective. There are other new products that are also effective, but I prefer Trifexis for a number of reasons. It's pricey, but if you get your dogs on Trifexis (and cats on Comfortis), you won't have flea problems any more. And you'll avoid exposing your family to pesticides, too. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjffkj Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Didn't know that about front line at all. I do the math myself it's very easy. But I havs known people who've had their vets do it for them so had no idea they shouldn't be doing so. Seems stupid for those vets to offer anx risk their livelihood so I'd never assume it was a no no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Tractor Supply sells Frontline and a bunch of other flea & tick formulas. I think the last time I wanted it I just went into the store and compared active ingredients across the boxes to get the best deal. ETA: Not sure what your vet quoted you, but TS does have it for $40 for 3 doses. Um. They quoted me a "special": Buy 3 doses for $75 and get one dose free. Headed out to Tractor Supply now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I have been buying Advantix flea & tick meds from Drs Foster & Smith for close to 20 years now. There is no shipping cost on flea & tick stuff. Our vet tells us outright not to buy from him as he can't discount it at all. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+6+142+23033&pcatid=23033&r=655 They are having a sale right now and like most things, the more you buy, the cheaper the dose is. Right now, for a dog 55 lbs+ it's $122 for 12 doses, so just over $10 per dose. The smaller dogs' meds are a tad cheaper. I buy all my pets' flea preventatives from Drs. Foster & Smith. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I usually get my stuff from 1800petmeds.com Along with Foster & Smith it's another reputable online source. Just check prices & if it's a prescription product, get your vet to fax in a scrip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J'swife Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 My vet was the one that told me to do this and told me exactly how much to use. Most vets will not do this, as it is in violation of EPA law. EPA regulates the topical pesticides (including Frontline), and it is illegal to dispense/use not in accordance with label instructions. I agree that this can be an effective method to save money, but no sensible vet is going to risk their license to save you a few dollars on flea product. So, figure it out yourself if you want to (be confident in your math, as you can poison your pets if you over apply), but please don't ask a vet to risk their livelihood and ability to practice medicine to help you do it. In fact, you should not ask the vet about this at all. It's just rude to ask, IMHO (and as a vet's wife, who would have a coronary if my husband risked his ability to put food on our table and pay off the 6 figure student loans and 7 figure practice debt . . . Your $50/yr is not a factor in our family's entire financial and professional security. OK, if you have a vet you hate and want to ruin, then, sure, ask . . . but if you have any liking or respect for your vet, please don't.) That said, I advise finding a vet who sells Trifexis, and get your dogs on that. Frontline isn't terribly effective any longer in many areas due to the widespread use of fipronil in both flea/tick products but also in agricultural and other large scale pesticide applications (termites, etc.) Trifexis/Comfortis, on the other hand, is very effective. There are other new products that are also effective, but I prefer Trifexis for a number of reasons. It's pricey, but if you get your dogs on Trifexis (and cats on Comfortis), you won't have flea problems any more. And you'll avoid exposing your family to pesticides, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 That said, I advise finding a vet who sells Trifexis, and get your dogs on that. Frontline isn't terribly effective any longer in many areas due to the widespread use of fipronil in both flea/tick products but also in agricultural and other large scale pesticide applications (termites, etc.) Trifexis/Comfortis, on the other hand, is very effective. There are other new products that are also effective, but I prefer Trifexis for a number of reasons. Frontline isn't working in my neck of the woods. I almost included it in my post but wasn't sure how wide-spread it was so I decided not to mention it. You know more than me since you are 'in the field' so to speak, so your word holds more water than mine. :001_smile: I have just heard anecdotes from friends who wound up with surprising flea & tick problems with their dogs! My vet stopped carrying it because it was so ineffective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm using Revolution here. Advantix if we're going to the valley to play in the tall grasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Thanks, everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 My vet was the one that told me to do this and told me exactly how much to use. Do your vet a favor and don't tell the story any more. Many vets are better doctors and kinder people than they are savvy business owners. All it takes is one angry ex-employee or ex-client to wreck your life. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 FIFRA sec. 12(a)(2)(G) makes it a violation of federal law for any person "to use any registered pesticide in a manner inconsistent with its labeling." All registered pesticides, including registered consumer pesticides, must bear the statement: "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling." 40 CFR 156.10(i)(2)(ii). Section 2(ee) of FIFRA provides limited exceptions to what is considered "in a manner inconsistent with" labeling. For instance it is not a violation to use a pesticide at a rate lower than that specified on the label unless the label specifically prohibits deviation from the specified rate. From this website: http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/regulating/labels/labels_faq/lr_faq_10.html In essence, anyone using any pesticide in a manner not in accordance with the label instructions is breaking the law. Likewise, anyone re-packaging pesticides is breaking the law. The exact packaging and wording on the packaging is legally prescribed. Pesticides are totally different from *drugs*. A vet can legally use drugs off-label and repackage them (in legally prescribed dispensing bottles with legally mandated information on it). Pesticides are regulated by the EPA. Drugs are regulated by the DEA. Totally different regulations and regulatory bodies apply to them . . . it is confusing, and vets are not lawyers. Smart vets try to follow the law to protect their practices and because it is the right thing to do. Meanwhile, the state licensing board regulates veterinarians over all, and would definitely look askance at a vet advising (or helping) someone to illegally repackage and use pesticides. When a pet or owner or by stander is made sick by the illegally packaged pesticides, be sure that any board complaint (or lawsuit) would result in very bad consequences for the vet and the practice owner. (DRUGS can legally be used off-label. . . . Pesticides can NOT.) So, if your vet is inadvertently breaking the law (with good intentions, I'm sure), I'd advise you not to encourage it and not to spread the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Just fwiw, Frontline Plus is not Rx & the instructions for dividing up large doses into small doses are readily available online for the savvy user. In defense of hjffkj & j'swife, this is a common practice among breeders & rescue (not just for topical flea, but also oral dewormers..) I could see a vet getting in trouble for deliberately prescribing a Rx medicine to be used at a different dosage than packaged, but an otc? ETA - just read your next post Stephanie. Interesting. I'm in Canada so different rules apply here anyway.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The "dosing" of spot on flea medications isn't exactly a closely kept secret. There's no need to get the info from a vet when it's readily available from many online sites. Note that I'm not advocating doing that. I've never done it for my own pets, mostly because I'm lazier than I am cheap. ;) But it's not like it's top secret info. As Hornblower said, breeders and rescue groups have been doing it forever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I don't see how storing the flea and tick meds in a different container and then using them in accordance with the manufacturer's directions (for your pet's size/available on manufacturer's packaging), for their intended use of controlling fleas and ticks, is in violation of the laws that were posted above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I don't see how storing the flea and tick meds in a different container and then using them in accordance with the manufacturer's directions (for your pet's size/available on manufacturer's packaging), for their intended use of controlling fleas and ticks, is in violation of the laws that were posted above. Well, you can believe me, you can research the EPA laws yourself, or you can not believe me. I manage the hospital we own, and so I have been the primary decision maker on compliance with EPA laws for over a decade and have researched this exact issue. To the best of my (well informed) understanding, it is illegal to do what you are talking about doing. Thus, responsible veterinary businesses don't do that (if they are aware of this aspect of the law). There are thousands of laws that impact a veterinary hospital, so many/most hospitals are not aware of all of them and often run afoul unintentionally. Given that I'd like our family business to remain in business long enough to put our kids through college, pay off our loans, and otherwise support our family, and given that I grew up the daughter of a lawyer, I am as informed and careful about these sorts of issues as I can be. It's my judgement that it's illegal to ever repackage any EPA regulated pesticide and it is also illegal to use it contrary to labeling instructions. So, storing a pesticide (Frontline) in another container is illegal, IMHO. Likewise, dispensing it by ML when the packaging does not allow for ml/kg dispensing (although, yes, you can do the math). Packaging is explicit in directing application of an entire dose on a pet in a specified weight range. It is NOT labeled in ml/kg dosing. Doing the math isn't allowed, IMHO. Of course, as a lay person, you can do whatever you want. The worst that would happen to you, realistically, is that a child/person might get into your illegally re-packaged pesticide and be harmed. Or, you might miscalculate and injure or kill your pet. Realistically, if you are cautious and smart and good at math, these things won't likely happen to you. And, I highly doubt the EPA or any other authority is going to nail you even if you really mess up. However, if a vet does these things, and relies on (often inept) lay persons to follow instructions, there are a lot of opportunities for errors to occur, thousands of patients per year, so many thousands of potential doses, and, meanwhile, MANY regulatory bodies who would hold the vet to a MUCH MUCH higher standard than a lay-person treating their own pets. So, do as you will, but I stand by my assertion that it is illegal to do this and that you should not ask a vet to do it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 StephanieZ, there are guidelines on the AVMA site for responsible repackaging of pesticides. They primarily have to do with labelling. So it does not appear illegal so long as labelling laws are satisfied. https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/040701f.aspx also see https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/050915b.aspx- Pesticide repackaging, what veterinarians need to know to avoid steep fines 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 & a further proviso - if you're going to store excess flea solutions, keep it in glass (& clearly labelled!). Some of them eat through certain types of plastics. I use revolution off-label on rats & we ran into this problem.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Element Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Frontline isn't working in my neck of the woods. I almost included it in my post but wasn't sure how wide-spread it was so I decided not to mention it. You know more than me since you are 'in the field' so to speak, so your word holds more water than mine. :001_smile: I have just heard anecdotes from friends who wound up with surprising flea & tick problems with their dogs! My vet stopped carrying it because it was so ineffective. Frontline doesn't work well here either. We use NexGuard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hmmm....don't want to jinx myself, but our pup will turn 1 in less than two weeks, and has never a flea yet. Not sure why. Not treated. He has a very active social life with exposure to a lot of dogs. Don't really like the idea of insecticides. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannahs4 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Bravecto ðŸ˜, for those of you with fipronil problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Bill, I've never really had a flea infestation. But one of my 3 is very allergic to even single flea bites so I treat him during the season. The others I only treat when camping or when I was getting in new fosters.Realistically we pick fleas up all the time but my guys never actually get infestations. If it weren't for the allergy guy, I'd hardly ever use the stuff.Ticks though are another thing. I don't like the idea of insecticides either, Bill, but ticks worry me a lot more so when we stray off the beaches & really coastal areas, I use tick prevention.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Bill, I've never really had a flea infestation. But one of my 3 is very allergic to even single flea bites so I treat him during the season. The others I only treat when camping or when I was getting in new fosters. Realistically we pick fleas up all the time but my guys never actually get infestations. If it weren't for the allergy guy, I'd hardly ever use the stuff. Ticks though are another thing. I don't like the idea of insecticides either, Bill, but ticks worry me a lot more so when we stray off the beaches & really coastal areas, I use tick prevention.... Do you understand why some dogs tend to get flea infested, and others don't seem to? Is short hair a positive there? As to ticks, we don't seem to have many here, and we don't have the Lyme disease problems the East has. Lucky. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 In BC we officially have tick borne disease here though nowhere near as bad as out east.None of mine are short haired so I don't think it's that.My personal theory is that a lot of it has to do with underlying health. I suspect parasites tend to overwhelm organisms who are not 100% healthy. Otoh, my old hairy monster newf x mystery dog is essentially dying from a bunch of things & old age, and still I haven't had to deal with fleas on him since I got him 5 years ago.... Fleas are here and they're here almost year round because of the climate. I used to credit raw but he's the one that's on kibble so it can't be that either. I know I vacuum pretty manically. Maybe that's it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scootiepie Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 As a little experiment a couple of years ago, I decided not to treat my dogs, and guess what? No fleas and no ticks. I'm not sure why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I think it's more your environment than the health of the dog that determines it. If you have random strays in your yard, you will end up with an issue, versus just going to the dog park. The way fleas reproduce, it is unlikely they will bring home fleas from that kind of environment. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I am horribly allergic to fleas myself so we can't mess around. Costco has a flea product that is similar to frontline. My brother uses that for his dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I think it's more your environment than the health of the dog that determines it. If you have random strays in your yard, you will end up with an issue, versus just going to the dog park. The way fleas reproduce, it is unlikely they will bring home fleas from that kind of environment. I agree -- IME it has much more to do with environment than anything else. I've never seen any evidence whatsoever that it has anything to do with health of the dog, diet, etc. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deee Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 My lab has a flea allergy, and she reacts very badly to topical flea treatments. They seem to burn her skin. We use Comfortis. Its absolutely fantastic. I only have to use it for about 4 months of the year and we live in a warm, humid climate. The only downside is getting to her swallow it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy_of_4 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 We use the generic version of frontline and it works great and is so much cheaper! I get it at petsmart. http://pets.petsmart.com/guides/flea-and-ticks/fiproguard-max.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 StephanieZ, there are guidelines on the AVMA site for responsible repackaging of pesticides. They primarily have to do with labelling. So it does not appear illegal so long as labelling laws are satisfied. https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/040701f.aspx also see https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/050915b.aspx- Pesticide repackaging, what veterinarians need to know to avoid steep fines Those articles are a decade old. I would not rely solely on decade old AVMA guidance (which is not legally binding on regulatory bodies, as AVMA is simply our professional association, not a regulatory body whatsoever) for something like this. Also, they specify repackaging with ALL the EPA packaging insert/labeling. Yes, it is possible. We do it *in accordance with the linked guidance you posted* routinely for simply splitting up 6 packs of pesticides into single doses. To do *even this*, you have to follow these specific and detailed guidelines. Manufacturers of Frontline, etc, provide single-dose packages with labeling for this purpose. So, a vet hospital can dispense a single dose of Frontline in the special envelope Merial provides us with a full copy of all packaging and labeling on each dispensing envelope. That is as far as we can go in redispensing -- taking a single dose and putting it in a special envelope with full copies of ALL the lengthy packaging labels, and even then, it is supposed to be in a child resistant vial! That is how we send home a single dose of 20-40lb pesticide to a 35 lb 4 month old growing big dog, so the owners don't have to buy multi-doses for a growing pup. Other practices (not ours) often sell single doses this way as a budgeting convenience, but due to the hassles of regulatory compliance, many practices like ours limit our re-packaging to the occasional growing-pup dose (in the official envelopes and in a vial . . .) No where in there are we allowed to put the dose in a vial and draw up/red-dose according to our judgment. No where are you allowed to dose ml/kg, (except for some vague exception for non-labeled species, such as for ferrets, etc.) Total repackaging and ml/kg dosing is absolutely not what these guidelines are talking about! I guarantee you that is totally illegal. I'd bet anyone $5000. And give odds. I know this for a fact. Again, dh & I own and run a vet hospital. I am confident in my interpretation of applicable laws. You go do what you want to do, but I stand by my statement that it is rude to ask a professional to do something illegal, and what was being discussed in this thread is absolutely illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 My lab has a flea allergy, and she reacts very badly to topical flea treatments. They seem to burn her skin. We use Comfortis. Its absolutely fantastic. I only have to use it for about 4 months of the year and we live in a warm, humid climate. The only downside is getting to her swallow it. Comfortis is the bomb! (Trifexis = Comfortis plus heart worm and intestinal parasite control. It is nominally more expensive than just the Comfortis. Consider it next time you are refilling your RX!) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deee Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I don't think its registered for use in Australia yet. Comfortis isn't registered for cats here yet, either. I use the US recommended dose on our cat. Its works a treat. Much better than frontline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Bill, I've never really had a flea infestation. But one of my 3 is very allergic to even single flea bites so I treat him during the season. The others I only treat when camping or when I was getting in new fosters. Realistically we pick fleas up all the time but my guys never actually get infestations. If it weren't for the allergy guy, I'd hardly ever use the stuff. Ticks though are another thing. I don't like the idea of insecticides either, Bill, but ticks worry me a lot more so when we stray off the beaches & really coastal areas, I use tick prevention.... This was us until last fall. We had a horrible infestation and even my indoor cat ended up with them. Took a while to get under control. We'll be using something this sprig b/c I don't want to go through that again! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 But remember . . . Laurie said she needs something for fleas and ticks. Comfortis doesn't help with ticks. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Good point pawz4me.. I really like Advantix for ticks. Seems to have the fastest action and reduces the chance that the tick will be on long enough to transmit disease. Revolution would be my 2nd choice for ticks specifically. .frontline is apparently slow to kill ticks so if an animal is exposed to lots of ticks in tick borne disease area, I think I wouldn't want to use that. Btw, Advantix is otc and readily avail online Revolution is Rx. Oh and the majority of bad reaction reports I've heard have been about the cheaper spot on treatments from grocery and pet supply stores. I don't really recommend any of those. Go for the big reputable brands, not the cheap knock offs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I agree -- IME it has much more to do with environment than anything else. I've never seen any evidence whatsoever that it has anything to do with health of the dog, diet, etc. This. I had a next door neighbor move a mile or so away and she went from not ever having seen a flea to needing to have her house treated and her dog treated at the vet. It was crazy, what she went through. She didn't think we had fleas here so she didn't treat her dog. All it took was a move of about a mile to change her mind. Same dog, same food, etc. Only a short distance change. Oh, and she went from manicured lawn to manicured lawn, so it's not like she went from no grass to rural/woodsy. We have never seen a flea on any of our pets here, but I still treat. We HAVE seen and dealt with tons of ticks, though. *shudder* 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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