A father to be very, VERY proud of. . .

[Barb_]

You know, in an era where politicians and conservative voters say we shouldn't fund a safety net via the government, that instead charity should be done privately, I don't get how things like Go Fund Me get knocked. This is what they said they wanted, private charity. And yet, it's still not good enough.

 

)

Hrm. That conflates things a bit. Personally, I'm not a politician nor a conservative voter, and I happen to think the destruction of the safety net is an absolute travesty for the reason that private charity tends to be inefficient and cherry pick as the above proves.

[RootAnn]

Do you remember the case of the teenagers abandoned in Nebraska when they passed a poorly worded law that was meant to allow parents to relinquish infants? They didn't get any infants, they got a bunch of teenagers whose parents or guardians couldn't deal with them. They had to change the wording of the law to block people from leaving older minors. This happened in America, can you imagine how bad it would be in Armenia?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/08/nebraska.safe.haven/

 

And to be honest, maybe they should have considered why people were relinquishing teenagers and thought about helping those families out a bit instead of rewording their law to prevent people from embarrassing the state by abandoning teens at hospitals.

 

I want to return to this for a moment as I'm pretty familiar with this, having lived in Nebraska at the time of this law. Nebraska did make several changes to their 'human services' including a help line for parents who felt they couldn't handle their kids anymore. It is a 24 hr emergency line that has trained counselors that can meet physically with people within 72 hours (often sooner, of course, but that's their stated goal, I believe) and makes referrals all the time to other helpful agencies/services. There was a tremendous recognition of the problem and they didn't just reword the law. (The Health & Human Services people in Nebraska are a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Huge issues, there.) But the help line is run through Boys Town, which definitely has street cred in terms of helping troubled teens.

[Farrar]

I don't think her story conflicts with his substantially.

 

He says that he found out the baby had Downs and went in only to discover that she was going to give him up.

 

She says that the doctor basically gave her an ultimatum to decide to give the baby up or not and that when he came in and she tried to talk to him about it, he wouldn't support her even thinking about it. I'm sure to him it felt like even considering giving the child up was a betrayal whereas for her it felt like he wasn't even understanding the difficulty of what she was going through. And then from there they just split apart.

 

I'm with those who say applaud the dad, don't condemn the mom.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't think her story conflicts with his substantially.

 

He says that he found out the baby had Downs and went in only to discover that she was going to give him up.

 

She says that the doctor basically gave her an ultimatum to decide to give the baby up or not and that when he came in and she tried to talk to him about it, he wouldn't support her even thinking about it. I'm sure to him it felt like even considering giving the child up was a betrayal whereas for her it felt like he wasn't even understanding the difficulty of what she was going through. And then from there they just split apart.

 

I'm with those who say applaud the dad, don't condemn the mom.

I agree with your analysis of how it seems to have gone down.  I still agree with the dad.  My sympathy for the child outweighs any sympathy I could ever feel for the mother.  

[Hunter's Moon]

For those commenting on this thread, I can assume the vast majority have encountered at least ONE adult with Down Syndrome.

 

This is not so in MANY Eastern European countries. Due to the lack of medical care, social awareness, and acceptance, the majority of children with DS are placed in institutions upon birth. At the age of five, many "age out" and are placed into adult mental institutions.

 

Does every child deserve a family? Absolutely! But unfortunately in this situation, the surrounding society and culture come into play.

 

If her story is to be believed (and I really don't see anything that doesn't line up with the father's version), then she saw an opportunity for her child she could not give him. If her story is to be believed, her husband gave her the option of raising him together in Armenia or taking his son to New Zealand and raising him by himself.

 

She made a choice -- one she felt best for her child. Many medical professionals in EE see children with DS as lost causes. Sure, she could have fought tooth and nail for his whole life. But for what? Sub-par medical and developmental care?

 

It's an unfortunate situation. But there really doesn't need to be an either-or battle in terms of sympathy and compassion. It wasn't too long ago that women in the US in the 50s were being told their children with DS were stillborn. It wasn't too long ago that doctors were using heavy duty scare tactics to scare women into giving their DS children over to the state. All because of fear of the unknown.

[Arcadia]

My late cousin was born in the early 70s, died of leukemia in his early twenties and was an only child. My aunt and her husband's savings were wiped out because of his medical needs.

 

When I was a volunteer at a Down syndrome school where the majority were non verbal and slightly violent children, not many families survived intact and siblings felt neglected. The same thing happen when I was a volunteer at a children's leukemia and kidney failure ward; families fall apart. It's a very gray area emotionally.

 

I had a classmate in a Catholic preschool with Down syndrome. He is a very gentle person but needs a dedicated aide. His mother and the nuns help out.

 

Even in the states, there are people who are afraid/avoid anyone that doesn't look typical. It would be a long tiring road for the dad even in his native country. This dad would still need to plan for guardianship and trust fund for this child for if/when the dad pass. My late cousin was able to work a minimum wage job, some down syndrome children will never be able to work.

[Aelwydd]

I don't know what to say to your apparent assumptions that we have not suffered during horrifically painful and terrifying events, often, over the years. I can say only that such assumptions would be rash and false.

 

I don't think she was making assumptions about what you have experienced.  I think she is assuming that if you live in a Western society, you likely have many resources and support--even if it's just cultural tolerance--that this Armenian mother probably did not have. 

 

IMO, the article raised more questions than it answered, and it is definitely worded to invoke a strong emotional response.  Among the questions I have are:

 

1. Did the husband and wife have differing beliefs regarding termination of pregnancy for DS?  Was this some sort of compromise by the wife, i.e., she knew he wouldn't support termination, so she instead carried to term but refused to raise the child?

 

2. Was there a reason she could not go to New Zealand?  Personal, family?  Or, is New Zealand like the U.S., in that even those non-citizens who are married to citizens still can have a difficult time procuring residency?

 

3. Did she have a reason not to trust her husband to discuss their son's condition?  

 

 

The issue could be as straightforward as the article makes it.  People and their relationships with each other are rarely uncomplicated though, and who knows what history this couple has.  Frankly, I'm just glad this baby had a father with citizenship in a country that offers support and resources for SN, because his future in Armenia otherwise would probably be very bleak.

[kiwik]

Being married to a NZ citizen is not an automatic in unless you can prove a genuine marriage which in this case they presumably could. If they separated before she obtained residency it could be a problem though. It would not be that quick but they could do the waiting here.

 

It sounds a bit to me like the father was completely horrified by her even considering it that he reacted too quickly even if he may have made the right decision.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is a wide range of abilities even within the Down's Syndrome community.  My nephew can read at a first grade level and do simple math.  He can hold down a job like being a busboy with some assistance.  I taught a girl with Down's who was reading at a fourth grade level.  She could write checks and balance a checkbook with help.  Both my nephew and my student are stubborn but neither are violent in the least.  My nephew is in his thirties.  They could not look at this newborn and automatically "know" that he would be nonverbal and violent.  

[TechWife]

You know, in an era where politicians and conservative voters say we shouldn't fund a safety net via the government, that instead charity should be done privately, I don't get how things like Go Fund Me get knocked. This is what they said they wanted, private charity. And yet, it's still not good enough. 

 

I think what they really mean is people should stop having the poor manners to be poor. 

 

 

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

[Hunter's Moon]

There is a wide range of abilities even within the Down's Syndrome community. My nephew can read at a first grade level and do simple math. He can hold down a job like being a busboy with some assistance. I taught a girl with Down's who was reading at a fourth grade level. She could write checks and balance a checkbook with help. Both my nephew and my student are stubborn but neither are violent in the least. My nephew is in his thirties. They could not look at this newborn and automatically "know" that he would be nonverbal and violent.

Of course they can't know, but it happened in the US into the 50s and unfortunately, it continues to happen in other countries.

 

Here's just one story from an EE birth mother discussing the pressure put on herself and her husband to put their son into an institution, where he would receive "proper care": http://guests.blogactiv.eu/2014/12/12/a-child-with-down-syndrome-placed-directly-into-an-institution/

 

There aren't any programs in EE similar to Early Intervention. There aren't any supports for developmentally, physically, or otherwise delayed children. Until the medical community in EE understands the variation of capabilities within the DS community, there won't be any change.

[momto5blessings]

Why are we being so hard on this woman and Armenia,as though we are somehow better than them? Here in the U.S. only 6,000 children a year are born with DS. The other 92 PERCENT are aborted before they have a chance to draw their first breath. That's a staggering amount of mothers who choose to murder their children. We have no right to judge anyone in my opinion.

[Scrub Jay]

Why are we being so hard on this woman and Armenia,as though we are somehow better than them? Here in the U.S. only 6,000 children a year are born with DS. The other 92 PERCENT are aborted before they have a chance to draw their first breath. That's a staggering amount of mothers who choose to murder their children. We have no right to judge anyone in my opinion.

 

"We have no right to judge anyone in my opinion" following "That's a staggering amount of mothers who choose to murder their children."

 

Interesting tactic...

 

[momto5blessings]

Not meant to be a tactic. I guess it would have been better to say we have no right to judge Armenia and this woman, given what the vast majority of women here choose.

[itsheresomewhere]

On the radio today, they were discussing this case.  They were saying that this man has 4 or 5 other kids.  One of those also has down syndrome.  Interesting thing was these are from his first marriage and he is not allowed to see them.  Did anyone else hear this?

[MyLittleWonders]

First of all, in response to the idea mentioned above about families not necessarily being left intact in the PP's experience, a survey was done a few years ago about the overall happiness of people with Down syndrome, as well as their family member's happiness. Overwhelmingly, the response was positive. Approximately 96% of those with Down syndrome reported they were happy in life (how many neuro-typical folks could report the same?). Siblings, parents, and families as a whole also had above 90% reported happiness with their lives.

 

In regards to our own county (US), it is estimated that 92% of babies prenataly diagnosed with Down syndrome are aborted. And that is mostly based on lies told by the medical profession (at least based on most stories I have read) and outdated fears reinforced. Yes, there is an increased risk of congenital heart problems and yes, children with Down syndrome have a slightly elevated risk of Leukemia. But it's not a guarantee, nor is it a guarantee that a child without Ds won't have these problems.

 

We have come a long way in this country in terms of life expectancy and quality of life for individuals with Down syndrome. But I can guarantee you that is because of the parents of those born before my daughter was born. It was because parents stood up and said no more. No more institutions. No more medical neglect by those who swore to first do no harm. No more shutting children away to waste away in forgotten classrooms. Much like we as homeschoolers have the opportunities we do because of the long fight of those who went before us, my daughter has an entire future bright with possibilities by those parents who fought for the rights of their children before she was born.

 

Yes, the outlook for little Leo in Armenia is bleak. But just imagine the difference that could be made if moms, after giving birth, listened to those maternal stirrings deep within and said, no more. We want to change the future for our own children as well as those that will come after. It's happened here within a couple generations. I don't envy those parents who blazed the trail. But I will be forever thankful. And I applaud the father in Armenia who is making that choice for his son, and hopefully helping forge a better future for others born with Down syndrome in Armenia.

[MFG]

On the radio today, they were discussing this case. They were saying that this man has 4 or 5 other kids. One of those also has down syndrome. Interesting thing was these are from his first marriage and he is not allowed to see them. Did anyone else hear this?

I saw this article yesterday about the case. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11400088 It sounds like it was his former church and not any legal entity forbidding him from seeing his other children. I think many pieces of this puzzle remain to be revealed.

[Jean in Newcastle]

First of all, in response to the idea mentioned above about families not necessarily being left intact in the PP's experience, a survey was done a few years ago about the overall happiness of people with Down syndrome, as well as their family member's happiness. Overwhelmingly, the response was positive. Approximately 96% of those with Down syndrome reported they were happy in life (how many neuro-typical folks could report the same?). Siblings, parents, and families as a whole also had above 90% reported happiness with their lives.

 

In regards to our own county (US), it is estimated that 92% of babies prenataly diagnosed with Down syndrome are aborted. And that is mostly based on lies told by the medical profession (at least based on most stories I have read) and outdated fears reinforced. Yes, there is an increased risk of congenital heart problems and yes, children with Down syndrome have a slightly elevated risk of Leukemia. But it's not a guarantee, nor is it a guarantee that a child without Ds won't have these problems.

 

We have come a long way in this country in terms of life expectancy and quality of life for individuals with Down syndrome. But I can guarantee you that is because of the parents of those born before my daughter was born. It was because parents stood up and said no more. No more institutions. No more medical neglect by those who swore to first do no harm. No more shutting children away to waste away in forgotten classrooms. Much like we as homeschoolers have the opportunities we do because of the long fight of those who went before us, my daughter has an entire future bright with possibilities by those parents who fought for the rights of their children before she was born.

 

Yes, the outlook for little Leo in Armenia is bleak. But just imagine the difference that could be made if moms, after giving birth, listened to those maternal stirrings deep within and said, no more. We want to change the future for our own children as well as those that will come after. It's happened here within a couple generations. I don't envy those parents who blazed the trail. But I will be forever thankful. And I applaud the father in Armenia who is making that choice for his son, and hopefully helping forge a better future for others born with Down syndrome in Armenia.

Yes, I'm glad that almost 40 years ago, my brother and SIL did not listen to ignorant doctors.  I'm glad that they built a loving family that included my nephew.  I'm glad that other more enlightened doctors did careful surgery on his heart as a toddler and that later when his original heart failed in his early twenties, that he was not rejected as a candidate for a heart transplant.  He has blessed our family and other families as well.  He's not some kind of a Down's syndrome "saint" but he is an important individual.  And that is where it for me - not losing sight of this particular child in this news story.