ILiveInFlipFlops Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I just finished reading the Saxon/Singapore thread from a few days ago, and it got me thinking more about how to help my kids see the wonder in math. DD12 is very adept at math (we started with RS, now we use Singapore), but she doesn't enjoy it. DD9 (started with Saxon, now in Singapore) struggles with math, but she's hanging in there with me. She has a very hard time with math facts (we're doing a lot of flash cards out of sheer necessity) but gets the conceptual stuff fairly quickly. (I'm not sure what that means, but that's whole other set of posts.) So that thread got me looking at the Zaccaro books and Beast Academy, and I'd love to bring more of that into our schooling, but I don't see quite how to spin the addition of more--and more complicated--math to our schedule in a positive way to kids who will only see it as drudgery. These aren't kids who enjoy logic or math puzzles generally--they much prefer "git 'er done" math education and will expend the effort for that, but they aren't interested in anything more. What do I do with kids like this? I can require that the additional math be done, but I don't think that will inspire much joy! I'd love to hear the math experts' thoughts on this. Thanks! ETA: Just for clarification, when I say DD9 is having trouble with her facts, I mean we're still working on addition facts :( She just turned 9 two months ago, and we're working in Singapore 1B. We tried RS, which worked well for my oldest, but it was such terrible fit for my youngest--she would rage over using manipulatives. Then we spent some time with Saxon, and that worked better, but I finally realized the problem wasn't the method, it was that she just needed drill drill drill on her addition facts. We spent some time just doing that, and it took awhile, but we finally got them to mostly stick and were able to move forward with the additional learning. We're finally making significant progress through 1B, and there are whole sections that she's able to zoom through now that the addition makes more sense to her. I was intensely worried that we were dealing with dyscalculia, and I'm still not entirely sure there's not something going on (she has so much anger and despair when she doesn't grasp something!), but we're finally making progress that has me mostly relieved. So I LOVE the look of Beast Academy, but based on the excerpts, I think we're going to come up against multiplication that will make her melt down fairly quickly in the material. Part of my concern is that, while she's a different kind of thinker, and I think this new way of looking at math might really appeal to her, I'm not sure she's ready for it, and I don't want to set back her confidence by changing the game again and giving her a new brick wall to pound on. Does that make sense? I'm thinking maybe Zaccaro instead? Can anyone suggest other kinds of materials that might be more appropriate for this kind of learner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 For your 9 year old, she probably "sees" the concepts but her computation is catching up. If they like graphic novels and you don't mind spending, the Beast Academy textbooks are a fun read. It's very visual and might appeal to your DD9. Does your DD9 knit or crochet? She might want to recite her math facts while she knit. Hubby and I try to highlight the beauty of math in nature (pine cones, snowflakes), in music and show the practical use of math like amortization of mortgage/car loan. We want math to be a living subject rather than a textbook/curriculum to be done. We also go beyond what is required for our state standards so that our kids get a broader view of math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertflower Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Do your kids like nonfiction books? I've heard good things about a book called The Realm of Numbers by Asimov. It's either that one or The Realm of Algebra. Reviews have said that it changed their lives. I can't remember if it was from this forum or on amazon. Idk. Just an idea. Or perhaps other math related books? I was going to look into a book called math girls when my kids are older. Hth and good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Instead of more, pull one day a week and do Beast Academy. Then it is not more, it is different. My son is not math happy, nor is he really interested, but we have used AoPS from the beginning specifically because it is highly logical and conceptual. My son detested Saxon. There was just no way it was happening. He saw the Singapore books his friends had and asked why anyone would do that to their kids. These are not bad curriculum, but they quickly suck the life out of math. See how one day of only a very few Beast problems goes. Make it fun. Snuggling up on the couch, fixing a snack, using voices for the comic strip, talking about what is happening. It does not need to look like math, and probably shouldn't if they are math adverse already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 First, the difference between conceptual and non-conceptual. I hear this come up all the time. Here is my experience... My 3 year old conceptually knows how to read an analog clock, but he doesn't yet have the arithmetic skills to always do it accurately. He perfectly understands the concept...look at which number the hour hand is or used to be pointing to, count how many clicks the minute hand has moved to know how much after that hour it is. If he says it is 4:07 I am completely confident that he is correct. If, however, he says that it is 4:37, I have less confidence. That would mean that he accurately counted to 37 without skipping any numbers or losing 1-1 correspondence at any point...it is probably safe to say it is between 4:30 and 4:45, but maybe not 4:37 exactly. The concept of an analog clock does not have to be tied to whether a child can know how many minutes have passed if the minute hands points to the 7. That is a convenient skills, but not a foundational skill to knowing how to read the clock. I see concept and execution as two completely different skills. At a conceptual level, my 5 year old has a strong understanding of math in different bases (binary, Base 4, etc). I think it is easier for little kids because their minds are not as locked into the base 10 system. He can talk with confidence about the fundamental aspects of that math - the "base number" tells you when a number no longer can fit in the "ones house" on decimal street, and different systems use different number to represent the SAME quantity. But, what he can actually DO in binary or Base 4 (or Base 10 for that matter) is clearly limited by his level of arithmetic skill. When we play with higher order math concepts, I have to construct problems very carefully to fall within his arithmetic ability. It is kind of like leveled readers...a kid could be ready to learn about astrophysics, but if you want him to read it himself you need to find a way to express it in words that are within his phonics skills. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerforest Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Rather than adding another curricula (and I say this as a BA and Zacarro loving gal), I'd focus more on living math activities. The livingmath.net site has tons of book and video and game suggestions. I'd also recommend the Danica McKellar math books for both DDs. My DD loves her books; we have them all! She also did a few math videos for Nerdist called "Math Bites". They are on YouTube. Look for Vi Hart on YouTube too for crazy beautiful math videos. We play Yahtzee, Suduko, and so many other games as a family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Thank you all for your thoughts so far. We're behind, and I'm so worried about catching up that it didn't occur to me to replace a day with this fun math! I like Danica McKellar--DD12 wasn't interested in the books I got her, but they both might like watching videos on the topic (on any topic, really :lol:). I didn't know they existed! Just for clarification, when I say DD9 is having trouble with her facts, I mean we're still working on addition facts :( She just turned 9 two months ago, and we're working in Singapore 1B. We tried RS, which worked well for my oldest, but it was such terrible fit for my youngest--she would rage over using manipulatives. Then we spent some time with Saxon, and that worked better, but I finally realized the problem wasn't the method, it was that she just needed drill drill drill on her addition facts. We spent some time just doing that, and it took awhile, but we finally got them to mostly stick and were able to move forward with the additional learning. We're finally making significant progress through 1B, and there are whole sections that she's able to zoom through now that the addition makes more sense to her. I was intensely worried that we were dealing with dyscalculia, and I'm still not entirely sure there's not something going on (she has so much anger and despair when she doesn't grasp something!), but we're finally making progress that has me mostly relieved. So I LOVE the look of Beast Academy, but based on the excerpts, I think we're going to come up against multiplication that will make her melt down fairly quickly in the material. Part of my concern is that, while she's a different kind of thinker, and I think this new way of looking at math might really appeal to her, I'm not sure she's ready for it, and I don't want to set back her confidence by changing the game again and giving her a new brick wall to pound on. Does that make sense? I'm thinking maybe Zaccaro instead? Can anyone suggest other kinds of materials that might be more appropriate for this kind of learner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Have you considered Miquon? That is "fun math" in a different way. Instead of posing challenging (intimidating) problems, it asks open ended questions, many of which seem simple, but that really get down to the backbone of the concepts and require a child to grapple with how the math actually works. It is intended for Grades 1-3, but there are no grade levels on the materials. It might be a good fit if you are working through Singapore 1B. It also includes a lot of fact practice presented in different ways. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerforest Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 What about c-rods with the videos at http://www.educationunboxed.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerforest Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 My girl really liked Reflex Math for her facts. Homeschool Buyer's Co-op often has discounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Quite honestly I think one of the most important things is the parent modeling what they expect from the kids. For example, if you want to raise kids who are readers -- the best thing to do is to read yourself, talk with other adults and your kids about what you're reading, carry a book around with you to pull out at the doctor's office -- make it clear that it is an important part of your life. Math should be similar. Learn about something yourself that YOU think is interesting -- not too closely related to computation at this point -- bring it up when you're in the car or at dinner or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertflower Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 You've gotten some good advice. I forgot about livingmath.net. I have it up on a tab, but haven't looked into it yet. lol Zaccaro is more logic fun imo. Yes, it's presented in a different way than a regular text, but it's additional problems imo. For Primary Grade, each chapter has 4 questions. Each question is a different level. For example, I believe that question 1 is for first grade, question 2 is for second grade, etc. I could be wrong about that though. I didn't realize that your 9 year was in Singapore 1B. Perhaps the book titled Games for Math by Peggy Kaye? It has lots of fun suggestions. Life of Fred, I believe is a curriculum, but told in a storybook format? I just requested a book from Stuart Murphy. He has written the Mathstart series. Someone on this forum recommended them. There are at least 3 different levels. It looks like something along the lines of Let's Read and Find Out series. This will be appropriate for your 9 year old. I also like the education unboxed videos. Hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 What kind of learner is your DD9? Some kids need to write to absorb. The two minutes math addition drills a page a day would help. I printed those off the internet. When you reach multiplication, let her fill out a multiplication chart and use it until she remember her multiplication facts. It is tough on a child emotionally when their math facts mastery lag behind conceptual understanding. If you put the math drill as part of something to get done instead of feeling like she is behind, it might be better. (My older is intense and picks up my mood). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 You might want to start reading about dyscalculia and get something meant for it. 9 is awfully late to dawddle around without answers or explanations when you're having problems. Ronit Bird is FABULOUS for number sense, which it sounds like is where she's at. If your library has it and you have time, the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by Sousa is a stuff but revelatory read. There are a couple other programs we've had mentioned recently over on LC. Touchmath and an SRA math (I forget the name). The SRA program has tons and tons of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 FWIW, both of my kids struggle in math. Especially DD but DS seems to have hit some snags, too. Beast Academy has been a hug help. Why? Because it is more fun and is a thinking math, not just constant algorithms. But we do Beast together. We do it on a dry erase board as a team as a supplement. So much more fun. And they enjoy the material. We also do the workbook but only after we have done stuff together on the dry erase or with materials around the house. They would struggle and getting almost nothing out of it if they had to do it completely on their own. That's why homeschooling is so great, though. They don't have to do it on their own. Agree with OhE, you ought to look up the Ronit Bird books. Sometimes taking a few steps back to basic number sense and concepts can help tremendously with making huge strides forward again instead of just limping along. Love the Ronit Bird stuff. And i agree about filling out the multiplication chart. Whatever you do, don't hold them back completely while you wait for them to master math facts. Those may not come for years if ever but sometimes the higher level math concepts actually help make the basic computation finally make sense and the math is so much more interesting. Keep working on math facts with manipulatives and games and such but also give them something meatier to work through. Maybe teach them roman numerals, too, and get roman numeral die to play math games with. Lots of fun. Hands on Equations is cool. Have you looked at CLE math? Much better way to use flash cards, IMHO. The spiral approach has worked well for my kids but sometimes can be overkill and sometimes they need more practice. We skip some problems when they have something down really well and add in problems in areas they need more practice. But we love CLE AND the flash card system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Does she like card games? If so addition war, go to the dump and cribbage (for an adult game) all use addition skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 Thank you, everyone. I managed to find the two Zaccaro books I wanted very inexpensively, so I think we'll start there for both kids. I love the look of BA, but I think it will have to wait a little bit, for both financial and preparation reasons. I think DD9 would love it, but if she encounters new math facts (like some of the multiplication I saw in the BA samples) in the course of it, she'll be extremely frustrated and refuse to do any of it. And this isn't just with math--it's any subject, any time, even things she's good at. She doesn't handle frustration well. We're working on it. We started working on syllogisms in a logic workbook yesterday, and by the fourth one in, she was ready to rip the page out of the book. I held my ground, and she ended up getting every one of them correct (including one that I misread, and she corrected me). It's just that when the frustration hits, she simply cannot see a way around it. I'd like her to have some more facts in place before I start adding concepts around them. She does like card games, but simple repetition via card games does not work for her. I cannot tell you how many games of Go To The Dump we played, and she still couldn't remember the facts that added up to 10. We also have a subscription to Reflex Math, but the timed element is very anxiety-inducing for her, and she would end up crying. Really, the flash cards have worked best and fastest, and in the meantime, we've moved on, concept-wise, much more easily than I had anticipated. I'll look for Ronit Bird, and I'll keep trying to point out the beauty in math. It's definitely true that I don't model that very well! I don't enjoy math puzzles much at all--for me, math is strictly a utilitarian thing. I don't dislike it, and I have no problem with mental math or math in everyday situations. But we're definitely a language-oriented family! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah CB Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 What about creating a math lab? I have a couple of old posts showing two different math labs that we had over the years: https://fanningflame.wordpress.com/2007/09/27/creating-a-math-lab/ https://fanningflame.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/the-new-and-improved-math-lab/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 What about creating a math lab? I have a couple of old posts showing two different math labs that we had over the years: https://fanningflame.wordpress.com/2007/09/27/creating-a-math-lab/ https://fanningflame.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/the-new-and-improved-math-lab/ Thanks, I'll look at them. ETA: See, I love the look of that! But my kids would never sit down and touch any of that unless I required it of them. We have all of those manipulatives! We have balance scales and math balances and weights and counters and tangram sets and... They're not interested in any of it, and if I pull it out, they groan. I recently got a bunch of Greg Tang books from the library, and they refused to sit and listen to me read once they realized what the content was. I used to put a challenging math-type problem for each kid on a whiteboard in our kitchen. Oldest DD would tackle hers after some cajoling. Youngest DD would erase hers and draw pictures or write a poem or joke. My youngest hates when I pull our RS abacus out. It reminds her of those painful early days of math, when it was all such a struggle, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I just have to accept that we're not math oriented? I hate to capitulate to that old stereotype, but then again, I guess I was the same way as a kid. Instead, I became a writer and an editor. Words are my thing. Is that a copout? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I'll look for Ronit Bird, and I'll keep trying to point out the beauty in math. It's definitely true that I don't model that very well! I don't enjoy math puzzles much at all--for me, math is strictly a utilitarian thing. I don't dislike it, and I have no problem with mental math or math in everyday situations. But we're definitely a language-oriented family! I'm not talking about pointing things out in a 'let's solve this problem!' manner, but just for discussion and "I wonder if". Try "Math for Smarty Pants" and "The I Hate Mathematics! Book" -- both available very cheaply, both are primarily words with very little computation. Don't just hand them to your kids -- read a few pages a day until you see something interesting, and then bring it up in conversation. I'll be astonished if you can't find at least a few interesting things in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 I'm not talking about pointing things out in a 'let's solve this problem!' manner, but just for discussion and "I wonder if". Try "Math for Smarty Pants" and "The I Hate Mathematics! Book" -- both available very cheaply, both are primarily words with very little computation. Don't just hand them to your kids -- read a few pages a day until you see something interesting, and then bring it up in conversation. I'll be astonished if you can't find at least a few interesting things in there. Oh, I got that. I just don't have the background in math to be able to point those things out confidently or with any kind of ability to explain or describe them (or even recognize them really!). My library system has both books, so I put them on hold. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I'm not talking about pointing things out in a 'let's solve this problem!' manner, but just for discussion and "I wonder if". Try "Math for Smarty Pants" and "The I Hate Mathematics! Book" -- both available very cheaply, both are primarily words with very little computation. Don't just hand them to your kids -- read a few pages a day until you see something interesting, and then bring it up in conversation. I'll be astonished if you can't find at least a few interesting things in there. Yes, I was going to rec these books, very fun little puzzles, ds loves these books. Also, how about logic? We just finished up the Logic Chapter in BA4B a few weeks ago and ds absolutely loved it, we did 3 hrs a day some days, things like Minesweeper, Sudoku, etc all use mathematical thinking. You can buy games like Rat a Tat Cat (for youngers), or Albert's Insomnia, Zeus on the Loose, or Mythmatical Battles (for olders) for a funner twist on games, much more so than Right Start games . Don't forget strategy games like Rush Hour, Settlers of Catan, Chess and Dominion to name a few. You are thinking too narrowly, there are many ways to work on problem solving, critical thinking and logic skills that look very little like traditional math and the more the kid is disinterested the more out of the box I would go. Lastly, a lot depends on your own attitude. Are you just expected that your children go to do these on their own? Play it yourself, ask them to play with you, teach them some games and do it together, make it quality family time. No matter if your not "math" people, these type of thinking skills are useful for everyone. I know they are not my strong suit but that just means that I haven't practiced enough. I think the harmful stereotype is the idea that some people are just not good at math, aside from actual math disabilities, a lot of it is the work we put into it. I suggest a good strategy game for Christmas and give it a good solid try, as a family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 We've been trying to do more "math projects" lately. A few resources on my blog: http://farrarwilliams.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/do-more-math-projects/ Seconding to just play more games, try logic, try the I Hate Mathematics Book or maybe some Murderous Maths books. Watch Vi Hart videos. Just throw enjoyment of numbers and math into things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Times Tales worked like magic for my daughter to learn multiplication facts. She hated competition, even competing against herself, so games didn't work. Miquon also helped a lot to curb math anxiety. Now we are doing Life of Fred, and my daughter is thinking she may actually like math now. This is a huge improvement over the math tantrums she had when she was younger. And the test scores show that she is learning well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Have you looked into the website math for love? They have a lot of posts on doing math that isn't arithmetic with kids who are struggling with arithmetic. They now have a page with a bunch of lessons on it. Set is a good math game that involves no arithmetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertflower Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Thanks, I'll look at them. ETA: See, I love the look of that! But my kids would never sit down and touch any of that unless I required it of them. We have all of those manipulatives! We have balance scales and math balances and weights and counters and tangram sets and... They're not interested in any of it, and if I pull it out, they groan. I recently got a bunch of Greg Tang books from the library, and they refused to sit and listen to me read once they realized what the content was. I used to put a challenging math-type problem for each kid on a whiteboard in our kitchen. Oldest DD would tackle hers after some cajoling. Youngest DD would erase hers and draw pictures or write a poem or joke. My youngest hates when I pull our RS abacus out. It reminds her of those painful early days of math, when it was all such a struggle, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I just have to accept that we're not math oriented? I hate to capitulate to that old stereotype, but then again, I guess I was the same way as a kid. Instead, I became a writer and an editor. Words are my thing. Is that a copout? No. Not a copout. By asking this question, it tells me that you are doing the best that you can. I'm more mathy than verbal, so I will have to study the logic books ahead of time when they get to that point. I think most of us have our strengths and weaknesses. :) This is a good thread. I'm glad you started it. People have given a lot of good suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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