Thoughts on going from Suzuki to Traditional...advice needed

[rainbird2]

I am a huge fan of Suzuki, especially for violin and other string instruments.  My 6 year old dd has been studying Suzuki violin with me for the last two years.  She is progressing rather quickly, and I think it is time for her to study with a professional.  (My primary instrument is piano, university trained.  I played violin in college and did some Suzuki training for fun, but I really am a pianist.) 

 

In the best Suzuki studio in our town, she would be the 2nd most advanced student should she join this studio.  The next most advanced student is a 16 year old boy, playing a piece that she will be learning in a couple of months. The reason I mention this is because I am not a fan of my dd being the best student in a studio or at Suzuki institutes.  I think it is good for her to see others playing at a higher level than her.  I want her to be inspired by the more advanced pieces.

 

I had her audition for a traditional violin teacher in a neighboring city, about an hour away.  He teaches at a major Conservatory of Music in the next neighboring city.  He is the teacher to go to if you want your child to play at a very high level.  She would play very well under his tutelage, but I am not sure if this is what my husband and I should be doing with our 6 year old.  She loves playing the violin, and has an exceptional ear.  I want her in an environment where she will get the highest level of training and be surrounded by other high level musicians, but also have that environment be a loving and nurturing environment (a la Suzuki). 

 

Do I take my dd to the Suzuki teacher who will be nice and teach her fairly well, or do I take her to the Conservatory teacher who wants her to start the Accolay Concerto in A Minor and Kreutzer?  (My goodness, she's 6).  Am I limiting her by considering her age and with wanting her to enjoy playing?  She really is advanced for her age, and she had to be invited after an informal audition with the Conservatory teacher.  Am I passing up a great opportunity by not taking her to him?

 

I don't want to feed her to the wolves and regret it later, but I don't want to limit her because I am sheltering her.  (But a 6 year old should be sheltered, right??)

 

I am trying to block out my experience in the music department in college, but this has been hard for me to do.  The best students there (and the ones with the most opportunities) were the ones who started early and were asked to perform above and beyond their abilities from a young age.  They rose to the occasion, though, and it paid off.  I could wait to start her with the Conservatory teacher when she is older, but will I regret it in the future?  Ugh..

 

Last, I contacted the Suzuki teacher and he said that she would outgrow his studio very quickly.  He recommended she go to the Conservatory teacher. We could go to him (Suzuki teacher), but he said there is only so much he could offer a student of her potential.

 

Please advise!!  I don't know what to do. 

 

Thank you!!

[musicianmom]

*

Edited May 22, 2022 by musicianmom

[Space station]

Conservatory teacher, but you set the boundaries. He may be the teacher and will give her the environment to thrive musically, but you are still the parent can shelter her and not let him push too much. As long as she still has an opportunity to be six in other ways, and she also loves the lessons, then go for it. Full disclosure, my personal bias is against Suzuki anyway, but in this case where even the Suzuki teacher admits he doesn't have a lot to offer her, it seems an easy choice to me.

Best of luck in your decision!

[myfunnybunch]

Would you be driving 1 hour each way on lesson days?

 

Cat

[momacacia]

Conservatory--Who knows but that she will love the concerto?!? Unless the Conservatory teacher is a "wolf" and you think she would hate working with him, why not let her blossom in her gift. You don't have to get all Amy Chua about it, but let her enjoy the pleasure of being really good at something. At this point do you really think the Conservatory experience will be that different?

[violamama]

Is the conservatory teacher experienced with children her age who are moving at her pace? If so, I'd probably go there, because of what you've said about your desire for her not to be the best at such a young age and to hear more advanced pieces. If that teacher will let her observe his (hopefully weekly?) studio classes and any visiting master classes, that could be a huge bonus. 

 

FWIW, I think it can be valuable to teach her that while she may be the most advanced around her immediate area there is always somebody better somewhere. Youtube is full of them. Summer festivals are even more packed with them. (ETA: If you can help her gain inspiration from them, rather than feeling intimidated, that can be invaluable her whole life.)

 

It doesn't sound so much like a Suzuki/not Suzuki question as it does fit for what you've decided you want. You have musical experience- go with your instincts, your knowledge of your girl and what works for your family's goals.

 

I love Suzuki for several reasons (our music academy's violin teachers all have training) but after book 5 it's anybody's game IMHO. A great teacher isn't defined by their curriculum or even philosophy.  

[maize]

My mom raised a whole passel of musicians ranging from the play-casually-for-fun to the serious professional as adults. Her advice has always been to choose the teacher not the method.

 

Find the teacher who fits your student, don't get caught up in Suzuki or not Suzuki.

[Dmmetler]

Not a string player, but a music teacher who works primarily with young kids at a university school of music.

 

One question I have-how is her reading? That is, is she reading at the level that she's playing, such that she can sight read a level or two below, or is she mostly still learning by ear and her reading skills are substantially behind? If the latter (which would be typical for most 6 yr olds who have learned using Suzuki), is the conservatory teacher comfortable teaching a young child theory and music reading while continuing to let her progress in playing? If he teaches just conservatory level students who come in by audition only, it's highly likely that he's used to kids who are capable of learning mostly by reading and can look at music and hear it in their heads, and may be weak at teaching theory below the college level. It's a different skill set. Even a prodigious 6 yr old (which your DD sounds like to me) often has gaps and weaknesses that a talented 16 yr old won't have-simply because the 16 yr old has had 10 years to fill them.

 

If this is the case, I'd lean towards putting her with the Suzuki method teacher, who, if he teaches Book 5+, should be quite experienced at teaching kids coming out of an aural system to get their reading skills up to par, while, if possible, letting her sit in on group lessons/master classes at the conservatory so she can be around students who are more advanced than she is and have excellent playing models, with the plan of transitioning to the conservatory teacher once she's able to learn strongly by reading.  Regardless, I'd look at getting her into good music camps and summer programs (there are Suzuki institutes that have classes and groups for advanced students beyond the Suzuki volumes. yet are still set up for young children), getting her into a youth orchestra at her reading level, if there's one available within a couple of hour drive (it's worth it), and getting her lots and lots of listening opportunities. I'd definitely suggest trying to create a relationship with the conservatory faculty to get her into their groups ASAP, even if you take a little longer to get to private lessons.

 

 

[MinivanMom]

I agree with the concerns dmmetler expressed. I would also be concerned by the fact that she has only had you as a teacher up until now. Transitioning from mom-as-teacher to a conservatory level teacher who doesn't normally work with young children is a huge jump for a 6-yr-old. Personally, I would want to spend 6 months to a year with the Suzuki teacher (assuming he's gentle and she connects with him) before making the transition to the conservatory teacher. I would ask about the possibility of sitting in on group lessons or just having a few master classes at the conservatory in the meantime.

 

It doesn't have to be all or nothing . . . Suzuki or traditional . . . local teacher or conservatory teacher. Make the choice that is best for your daughter, both musically and emotionally, right now at six-years-old. She can always progress to the more challenging teacher/situation in 6 months to a year.

[rainbird2]

So many great responses...I cannot thank you all enough!!  (I love this forum!!)

 

To answer a few questions...

 

She is on the last piece in Book 4, the Bach Double 2nd violin part.  She'll be done with it in a couple of weeks.  We will spend December reviewing all of Book 4 and move on to Book 5.  She wants to play the Bohm Perpetual Motion for the Honors Concert at Suzuki camp this summer.  She loves that piece.  If we switch to the Conservatory teacher, though, we won't be going to Suzuki Institute this year.  :(  (I'm really sad about that.  I love Suzuki camp.)

 

The drive is an hour to and an hour back for lesson with the Conservatory teacher, once a week.  That's not a problem, though.  She can't get enough of Ramona Quimby on Audible.  :)

 

dmmetler, you hit the nail on the head.  Her reading is no where near as good as her aural skills.  It is a struggle for her to make it through I Can Read Music.  She will do it, but she would much rather listen and play by ear...anything by ear, not only Suzuki pieces.  Suzuki has given her a great ear, but she is a typical 6 year old when it comes to reading.  The Conservatory teacher asked about her reading and I told him it was really behind her playing level.  He said, "Oh, we'll get her caught up in no time."  I don't think it will be that easy.  He does have experience working with very advanced youngsters.  Perhaps I should talk with him about this in more detail next week.

 

I am thinking we should do the Suzuki teacher for a year and focus on reading more than the Suzuki repertoire.  Maybe join a youth orchestra at the lowest level and give her an opportunity to balance out?  I did ask her last night, though, if she really wanted to learn Accolay, even though it is going to be really, really, really hard to learn/read.  She said that she wanted to at least give it a try.  (I loved that answer.)  We may go to the Conservatory teacher for one lesson and talk with him about a plan...what would he like her to be with reading, can we attend master classes, etc.  I think we need to create a plan for this coming year.

 

The advice on finding a good teacher and not a method is wonderful.  I needed that reminder.  Thank you!

 

Last, I haven't turned into Amy Chua yet...she had a playdate on Wednesday, and she takes a painting class, a singing class and ballet for fun!  :)

 

Thanks to everyone for your input!

 

 

[lewelma]

Personally, I would find the best teacher you can afford.  We made the mistake with both our kids of having violin teachers that were not working HARD on their hand positions in the early years.  I have sat in lessons for 4 years now, 3 with older and 1 with younger with *great* teachers, and they spend at least 30 minutes at each lesson working on positioning of both the bow hold and the left hand.  As I am sure you know, playing the notes in violin is just one very small piece of the puzzle, you just can't move forward until each little piece is in working order.

 

Our current teacher has 2 students right now that are in the National Youth Orchestra, one of which is the youngest student to *ever* get in; and he has a student who is willing to drive 2.5 hours *each* way for lessons.  I have sat in on a lesson with some of these amazing students in prep for the concert (parents and kids just hanging out, waiting for their turn to work with accompanist and teacher), and even at this very high level, there is still all sorts of adjustments to hand positions. 

 

My point is that in addition to sight reading and scale playing and theory that will be learned over a number of years to play catch up, your dd needs to get a teacher to can get the hand positions correct, and get this done right away.  My older took 2 full years to clean up the mess that a less accomplished teacher left.  So if the Suzuki teacher has that knowledge and focus, then great, if not I'd consider the Conservatory teacher as long as he is very willing to keep the joy alive and is capable of working with a young student.  Our two best teachers required that I sit in lessons for *years* so I absolutely know that they work well with young kids. Ask about sitting in on lessons, in my experience good teachers want it.  And you may or may not know that there are different bow holds that different teachers prefer, so you may need to talk to the Conservatory teacher about it -- my older had to learn a new hand position with his current teacher, because his first great teacher (after 3 bad teachers) was teaching a different hold, but then he moved overseas before the job was done.  Our current teacher does not teach that hold, so could not help ds to finish mastering it, and ds had to learn a new one.  Given that these are deeply held habits, we are talking about at least 6 months to a year to make the switch. 

 

Violin is a tricky instrument!

 

Ruth in NZ

[lewelma]

I should also add that we really like the ABRSM exams for violin as they require you to stay even in your musical skills - performance (with accompaniment), scales, earwork, sight reading, and theory.  You could ask about working towards these exams.  Sounds to me like your dd is:

 

(FYI these 'grades' are not american school grades. grade 8 is just slightly lower than AP level in USA)

 

1) grade 5 in performance (given where she is in the suzuki books.  Some pieces in those books can be used in the exam, which is why I know, although it does not sound like she has worked with an accompanist, and the syncopated selection are very tricky to do with accompaniment (there are 3 selections you must play, classical/baroque, romantic, and modern - so she may be 'only' grade 4)

 

2) grade 2 in sight reading

3) grade 5 or even higher in earwork

4) grade 2 in theory

5) grade ? in scales.

 

So for example, she could set the goal of taking the grade 4 violin exam in a year to give her time to bring up her weakest areas (the exams include all areas). What I love about these exams is that they help kids focus on the weakest parts of their musicality, because there are objective criteria that they must achieve.  My oldest boy took his first exam at age 9 and it was a wonderful experience, but I know that very little kids also take these exams.  The examiners are musicians who do it for the love of helping kids become great musicians. 

 

You can google ABRSM and learn all about it.  Our teacher has kids take exams every 2 years (so sometimes skipping one), so you could ask the conservatory teacher about it.

[Doodlebug]

Is the conservatory teacher experienced with children her age who are moving at her pace? If so, I'd probably go there, because of what you've said about your desire for her not to be the best at such a young age and to hear more advanced pieces. If that teacher will let her observe his (hopefully weekly?) studio classes and any visiting master classes, that could be a huge bonus. 

 

It doesn't sound so much like a Suzuki/not Suzuki question as it does fit for what you've decided you want. You have musical experience- go with your instincts, your knowledge of your girl and what works for your family's goals.

 

 

 

My mom raised a whole passel of musicians ranging from the play-casually-for-fun to the serious professional as adults. Her advice has always been to choose the teacher not the method.

 

Find the teacher who fits your student, don't get caught up in Suzuki or not Suzuki.

 

 

Not a string player, but a music teacher who works primarily with young kids at a university school of music.

 

One question I have-how is her reading? That is, is she reading at the level that she's playing, such that she can sight read a level or two below, or is she mostly still learning by ear and her reading skills are substantially behind? If the latter (which would be typical for most 6 yr olds who have learned using Suzuki), is the conservatory teacher comfortable teaching a young child theory and music reading while continuing to let her progress in playing? If he teaches just conservatory level students who come in by audition only, it's highly likely that he's used to kids who are capable of learning mostly by reading and can look at music and hear it in their heads, and may be weak at teaching theory below the college level. It's a different skill set. Even a prodigious 6 yr old (which your DD sounds like to me) often has gaps and weaknesses that a talented 16 yr old won't have-simply because the 16 yr old has had 10 years to fill them.

 

If this is the case, I'd lean towards putting her with the Suzuki method teacher, who, if he teaches Book 5+, should be quite experienced at teaching kids coming out of an aural system to get their reading skills up to par, while, if possible, letting her sit in on group lessons/master classes at the conservatory so she can be around students who are more advanced than she is and have excellent playing models, with the plan of transitioning to the conservatory teacher once she's able to learn strongly by reading.  Regardless, I'd look at getting her into good music camps and summer programs (there are Suzuki institutes that have classes and groups for advanced students beyond the Suzuki volumes. yet are still set up for young children), getting her into a youth orchestra at her reading level, if there's one available within a couple of hour drive (it's worth it), and getting her lots and lots of listening opportunities. I'd definitely suggest trying to create a relationship with the conservatory faculty to get her into their groups ASAP, even if you take a little longer to get to private lessons.

 

:iagree:

 

I think the real struggle here is going to be bridging her note reading/performance disparity.  Without knowing your daughter/family, I would guess slowing her down for the sake of catching up isn't an option... it would kill the joy for her.  As long as conservatory instructor understands this is the situation, and has experience with young children, I would go there.  

 

And then, to help in note reading... instead of slowing her down in violin, it may be worth introducing a new instrument with an emphasis on note reading for progress (you said you were a pianist, right?).   ;)

 

Stella

[lewelma]

When my younger was going for his grade 4 exam, we found out that he could not read music.  He was looking at the music all those years, but actually playing by ear.  So we got down to business and did 10 minutes of sight reading practice each day.  He got up to grade 3 sight reading in 4 months and had him take the grade 3 exam instead.  The next two levels are a bit more tricky, but my guess is that she could bring the sight reading up to her current playing level in under a year if she spent 10 minutes a day on it. (meaning getting her sight reading up to a level below what she is capable of playing. ) I suggest you get some proper books to teach her *how* to start to read groups of notes like words.  I would really start to sell her on how great it would be to have the capability of sight reading anything she wants.  If she actually wants to learn how, I'm thinking she learn reasonably quickly. 

 

 

[Doodlebug]

Coming back to amend my suggestion re new instrument for note reading.  

 

Insert "Youth Orchestra" at the level she's note reading... which is what you said already, OP!   

 

This thought hit me in the middle of the night... It will require note reading in a new context (exciting), surrounded by peers, on her chosen instrument.  For a six year old who isn't ready developmentally to apply or appreciate note reading, I think that's a winner.     

 

You were right!!!  (How often do you get to hear that?)  Write this date down.  ;)

 

Stella

 

 

 

 

 

[rainbird2]

Stella, I wrote down the date.  :)  Thank you!  :)  We're going the orchestra route.  I think she will like orchestra.

 

lewelma, I appreciate your responses.  Yes, the violin is a tricky instrument...so many facets that need to be addressed.  We will be seeing the Conservatory teacher tonight for a lesson and will talk with him about some of the points you brought up.  I'll also ask about exams.  She doesn't have a problem with the accompaniment part because I usually accompany her with all of her pieces.  (Nice to have a mom who is a pianist.)

 

I will update with what happens at lesson tonight.  We worked on the first page of Accolay this week and she learned it.  (I am really surprised that she was able to do it!)

 

 

[catz]

This is an interesting thread!  I have 2 Suzuki kids.  And some people get so hung up on "Suzuki", but at 10 and 14 they are both full on music readers too.  My 10 year old violinist does orchestra and is the youngest in her orchestra in the violin section.  We've had 6 teachers between 2 kids.  I really think Suzuki teachers can and do vary as widely as any other type of teacher. 

 

As someone who has HAD to switch teachers when my kids were young and got some pressure because my oldest had a good ear, is very confident, and quickly developed perfect pitch I just had a couple other thoughts.  Whichever teacher you go with at any point, follow your child's lead.  Your child does not owe anything to the world or to any teacher.  It's great she's doing well and enjoying it now.  Follow HER lead in terms of progress, exams, extras, etc. 

 

The other situation I've seen when kids switch teachers is that teacher A would prioritize things one way and teacher B would prioritize things another way, and the new teacher would have anything that felt like progress to the child come to a screeching halt while they micromanage something like bow hold or hand position, etc.  My son's current piano teacher totally did that.  He was screaming through repertoire with another teacher and new teacher was much more fussy about hand position and phrasing and dynamics in a young kid.  I asked him to add other music to keep things fresh.  He is Suzuki trained, however he has a PhD and taught at the college level before going through Suzuki training.  He has a very advanced studio with many kids working beyond/outside Suzuki rep.  So that teacher is a GREAT comprise for him.  Although, if we had to switch teachers again, obviously it makes no sense to switch to someone primarily Suzuki when you're done with Suzuki rep.  I will say we still highly value group lessons.  My son's piano group is actually a mix of advanced Suzuki/traditional kids.  It's too bad your not closer to a bigger program! 

 

I would definitely prioritize reading at this point.  Oh - for my kids reading something new every day was crucial to cementing those reading skills.  Suzuki kids can memorize anything that's played so quickly.  There are lots of books available like that for piano, but I've had to be more creative with violin. 

[catz]

When my younger was going for his grade 4 exam, we found out that he could not read music.  He was looking at the music all those years, but actually playing by ear.  So we got down to business and did 10 minutes of sight reading practice each day.  He got up to grade 3 sight reading in 4 months and had him take the grade 3 exam instead.  The next two levels are a bit more tricky, but my guess is that she could bring the sight reading up to her current playing level in under a year if she spent 10 minutes a day on it. (meaning getting her sight reading up to a level below what she is capable of playing. ) I suggest you get some proper books to teach her *how* to start to read groups of notes like words.  I would really start to sell her on how great it would be to have the capability of sight reading anything she wants.  If she actually wants to learn how, I'm thinking she learn reasonably quickly. 

 

:iagree:  This is exactly how we got my kids reading up to level.  My older is a huge ear kid and raced through early rep in piano.  My younger was much more resistant to music lessons, but liked groups enough not to quit while moving at a fairly average pace (for a homeschooled kid anyway! she is usually the youngest in her groups but not always).  Her mode is READING.  She is learning MUCH faster and is MUCH more confident and motivated now that she can read music.  Interesting how different kids can be.  Still don't think that one will be a musician by any stretch, but she's enjoying orchestra SO much.

[rainbird2]

We're going with the Conservatory teacher.

 

We have had two lessons, and they were intense.  He clearly doesn't have any regard for her age...I could hardly keep up with what he was teaching her.  But what he is teaching her is nothing that I have ever experienced in my life.  He understands the violin more than anyone I have ever seen.  He plays everything for her, and relates everything to theory...then technique...then more theory...then he plays it again.  Then he shows her how to practice it, how to memorize, etc.  He's truly amazing.

 

We went home the first week and did some intensive sight reading.  She has improved so much, and it has been only 2 weeks.  It's really crazy.  She read the 2nd Kreutzer etude with a little help from me, and she is memorizing it this week.  First two pages of Accolay are done, too.  This is going to be really, really hard, but the teacher keeps assuring me that she will be able to do it.

 

He has a couple of other younger students, a 5 year old and a 7 year old.  They are both playing far more advanced pieces that my dd.  If she has any sort of talent, I think this is the teacher to cultivate that gift.  Pray for my dd...and for me!!  (I'm scared!)

 

Thank you all for the wonderful advice.  :) 

 

 

[rainbird2]

I should also note that she is on board with going to the Conservatory teacher and knows how hard it is going to be.  We started a bead jar for good repetitions, reading, etc.  Once it's full, she can go buy a wedding Barbie.  She will do anything for a wedding Barbie.  :)  So, she's still 6 and I haven't turned into Amy Chua yet!  :)

[musicianmom]

I'm glad it's going well. It sounds like you've found something really wonderful for your dd.

Edited May 22, 2022 by musicianmom

[wintermom]

Sounds like the Conservatory teacher will have a lot to offer. It certainly is exciting to see such skill for such a young child

 

I wonder where a 6 year old goes from learning such advanced material at such a young age, though. And not necessarily for your dd specifically, but in general. They may learn the technique to physically play the Accolay concerto, and perhaps even have the strength and focus put in the hours and hours of practice to do this, but what would the long-term plan be for these children? 

 

My 10 year old ds is playing the songs in Suzuki book 4 very well, but he certainly doesn't have the depth of phrasing, emotion and maturity to really do these songs justice. He had a very rapid rise through the first 3.5 books, and is now at a point when he's forced to slow down to really work on phrasing, sound quality, and a much more mature way of playing music. He's been playing in group classes for the last 5 years, but is now beyond the Suzuki group classes. He's still on the edge of being too young to blend in well with most of the string ensemble and orchestra groups, even though he could play the material. Most of these groups are in the 12 - 16 age range, and there is a huge gap between social behaviours of a 10 and under and a teen, that even talented musicality won't necessarily bridge.

 

My dd at age 14 is only about a book beyond my ds, but has so much more potential with her older age to really come along with the sound quality, mainly due to the physical ability to practice and focus for the number of hours necessary to master higher level songs. And she's in at a much better age to blend in well with youth ensembles and orchestras. In a way, I wish my ds hadn't progressed so quickly. 

 

All the best with this exciting journey! Perhaps there are string ensembles for very young, talented musicians in your area. 

[lewelma]

I'm so glad that you found something that will work!  Congrats!

 

I wonder where a 6 year old goes from learning such advanced material at such a young age, though.

 

but what would the long-term plan be for these children? 

 

 Perhaps there are string ensembles for very young, talented musicians in your area. 

 

My older son has been in a quartet or trio since he was 10, through a program for young, talented musicians that is sponsored by the local university.  They perform 2x a year in a formal concert.   When the kids were age 10, the trio performed the Rumba by Peter Martin. It was so amazing! We never uploaded the performance to youtube, but here are some adults playing it to give you a feel for what 10 year olds can accomplish:

 

 

)

 

Also, our city has a youth symphonetta in addition to a youth Orchestra.  And those experiences help talented kids transition to the National Youth Orchestra.  As I mentioned above, one of our teacher's students joined the city youth orchestra at 10 and made it to the National Youth Orchestra by 12.

 

I'm sure it depends on the city, but I am also sure that the teacher at the conservatory will know where these kids go to perform. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[violamama]

Thoughts re: path for very advanced youngsters question from wintermom.

Being both musically and technically proficient enough to perform a piece can happen younger than you might think. In my opinion, both are a matter of great training in addition to certain innate proclivities. I also believe proclivities can be created by great (consistently on-task) practice habits and regular exposure to fantastic playing. 

 

Some young musicians might struggle technically, others might not be as musically facile. Every once in a while a student is able to more easily bring together both sides of the coin in addition to quick learning of new works. (Those students were often prompted very early to mimic a teacher's phrasing in addition to the "ink on the page".  

 

When a student struggles with musicality and depth of sound, personally I would assign a lot of very specific listening. We then play scales & arpeggios in different "styles". We explicitly discuss technical things like vibrato width/speed and bow variation, which we apply broadly to scales and etudes. We play mimic games, and we talk a lot about why I would choose to play a phrase a certain way. Only then would it be applied in the context of a piece, and usually we'd pick a few very brief excerpts in which to deploy those musical skills first before learning the whole work. In that way, more advanced musical playing can be "grafted in" to a new work without too much stress. Musical depth including variety of sound and beautiful phrasing are things that some young students would not necessarily see as being equally important to simply playing all the notes correctly. It sometimes takes a bit of gymnastics on the part of the teacher and the practice partner to point out the value in those skills as well. I have even been known to assign written reviews of disparate performances (a wild player vs a conservative one, or an "old school" performer vs somebody very recent). Listening analysis with leading questions is an easy way to awaken that part of a student's ear. 

 

If possible, having the technically focused student observe the lesson (or masterclass) of other more musically facile players can be infinitely helpful. 

 

Prodigies or very advanced younger musicians, when they reach college-age, often find the playing field is generally leveled. It's not necessarily a great advantage either way. Most music students don't become professional musicians, but kids who are encouraged to play throughout their childhood often continue to find music is a valuable means of expression into adulthood. Support your musical kiddo in the best way you know, and keep track with your teacher. Ask regularly how they think you're doing with practicing or if there are any areas the kid could do well to focus on more directly. Go to a lot of concerts. Buy multiple recordings of anything they are playing.

Comparing your kid's path to another's can be frustrating, just like in any other skill-set or academic subject. I know you're just asking about different paths, but thought I'd throw my thoughts in there. 

[rainbird2]

Sounds like the Conservatory teacher will have a lot to offer. It certainly is exciting to see such skill for such a young child

 

I wonder where a 6 year old goes from learning such advanced material at such a young age, though. And not necessarily for your dd specifically, but in general. They may learn the technique to physically play the Accolay concerto, and perhaps even have the strength and focus put in the hours and hours of practice to do this, but what would the long-term plan be for these children? 

 

My 10 year old ds is playing the songs in Suzuki book 4 very well, but he certainly doesn't have the depth of phrasing, emotion and maturity to really do these songs justice. He had a very rapid rise through the first 3.5 books, and is now at a point when he's forced to slow down to really work on phrasing, sound quality, and a much more mature way of playing music. He's been playing in group classes for the last 5 years, but is now beyond the Suzuki group classes. He's still on the edge of being too young to blend in well with most of the string ensemble and orchestra groups, even though he could play the material. Most of these groups are in the 12 - 16 age range, and there is a huge gap between social behaviours of a 10 and under and a teen, that even talented musicality won't necessarily bridge.

 

My dd at age 14 is only about a book beyond my ds, but has so much more potential with her older age to really come along with the sound quality, mainly due to the physical ability to practice and focus for the number of hours necessary to master higher level songs. And she's in at a much better age to blend in well with youth ensembles and orchestras. In a way, I wish my ds hadn't progressed so quickly. 

 

All the best with this exciting journey! Perhaps there are string ensembles for very young, talented musicians in your area. 

 

wintermom, I hear you.  Personally, I wouldn't ask any of my piano students to make such huge leaps in their repertoire.  It is not my preference for my dd to make such a huge leap with violin, but I am not a professional violinist and I have given over the reigns to her new teacher.  Maybe he has seen students do this before and he knows she is capable.  I don't know.

 

This is one of the reasons I wanted to stay with Suzuki.  I really like the incremental approach, and there is still so much she could learn from Suzuki.  Sure, the Suzuki repertoire isn't perfect and there are some holes in Suzuki, too.  But going from Bach Double to Accolay is a huge leap.  In all fairness, her new teacher did ask her to buy 37 pieces last week (short pieces that are probably more appropriate for shorter attention spans). And the Kreutzer etudes, at least the first few, are on par with Book 4. 

 

Maybe the goal is to build up the repertoire and strength at this age, so when she is older and more mature things like phrasing, dynamics, etc. can be worked on with ease?  I am thinking this is the goal.  Certainly, my dd at 6 will not play Accolay with as much beauty and passion as Perlman.  But after several years of playing it, will it be much easier for her to add those finishing touches when she's more mature?  

[wintermom]

Thoughts re: path for very advanced youngsters question from wintermom.

 

Being both musically and technically proficient enough to perform a piece can happen younger than you might think. In my opinion, both are a matter of great training in addition to certain innate proclivities. I also believe proclivities can be created by great (consistently on-task) practice habits and regular exposure to fantastic playing. 

 

Some young musicians might struggle technically, others might not be as musically facile. Every once in a while a student is able to more easily bring together both sides of the coin in addition to quick learning of new works. (Those students were often prompted very early to mimic a teacher's phrasing in addition to the "ink on the page".  

 

When a student struggles with musicality and depth of sound, personally I would assign a lot of very specific listening. We then play scales & arpeggios in different "styles". We explicitly discuss technical things like vibrato width/speed and bow variation, which we apply broadly to scales and etudes. We play mimic games, and we talk a lot about why I would choose to play a phrase a certain way. Only then would it be applied in the context of a piece, and usually we'd pick a few very brief excerpts in which to deploy those musical skills first before learning the whole work. In that way, more advanced musical playing can be "grafted in" to a new work without too much stress. Musical depth including variety of sound and beautiful phrasing are things that some young students would not necessarily see as being equally important to simply playing all the notes correctly. It sometimes takes a bit of gymnastics on the part of the teacher and the practice partner to point out the value in those skills as well. I have even been known to assign written reviews of disparate performances (a wild player vs a conservative one, or an "old school" performer vs somebody very recent). Listening analysis with leading questions is an easy way to awaken that part of a student's ear. 

 

If possible, having the technically focused student observe the lesson (or masterclass) of other more musically facile players can be infinitely helpful. 

 

Prodigies or very advanced younger musicians, when they reach college-age, often find the playing field is generally leveled. It's not necessarily a great advantage either way. Most music students don't become professional musicians, but kids who are encouraged to play throughout their childhood often continue to find music is a valuable means of expression into adulthood. Support your musical kiddo in the best way you know, and keep track with your teacher. Ask regularly how they think you're doing with practicing or if there are any areas the kid could do well to focus on more directly. Go to a lot of concerts. Buy multiple recordings of anything they are playing.

 

Comparing your kid's path to another's can be frustrating, just like in any other skill-set or academic subject. I know you're just asking about different paths, but thought I'd throw my thoughts in there. 

 

Thanks, violamam. I really appreciate your response. I am constantly amazed by the level of playing that my son's teacher is able to raise him to. It's very exciting to see.  The difficult part for me is trying to reproduce the mimicing at home for daily practice when I don't play violin, and also finding a "happy middle ground" in the amount of time and focused practice needed to keep playing the violin an enjoyable activity. He loved moving quickly through new pieces in books 1 - 3, but is finding it less motivating to spend the months needed to polish his recital song. The results of all this work are truly amazing, but it does involve a certain amount of maturity and discipline. He does play shorter studies and exercises, but these aren't usually as exciting as the concertos. Fortunately, we have a very experienced and talented teacher, who does a marvellous job working with students of all ages and personalities. The last thing I want is for his obvious talent for the violin to become a hated chore. My goal is for him to enjoy making music throughout his life-time. 

[wintermom]

wintermom, I hear you.  Personally, I wouldn't ask any of my piano students to make such huge leaps in their repertoire.  It is not my preference for my dd to make such a huge leap with violin, but I am not a professional violinist and I have given over the reigns to her new teacher.  Maybe he has seen students do this before and he knows she is capable.  I don't know.

 

This is one of the reasons I wanted to stay with Suzuki.  I really like the incremental approach, and there is still so much she could learn from Suzuki.  Sure, the Suzuki repertoire isn't perfect and there are some holes in Suzuki, too.  But going from Bach Double to Accolay is a huge leap.  In all fairness, her new teacher did ask her to buy 37 pieces last week (short pieces that are probably more appropriate for shorter attention spans). And the Kreutzer etudes, at least the first few, are on par with Book 4. 

 

Maybe the goal is to build up the repertoire and strength at this age, so when she is older and more mature things like phrasing, dynamics, etc. can be worked on with ease?  I am thinking this is the goal.  Certainly, my dd at 6 will not play Accolay with as much beauty and passion as Perlman.  But after several years of playing it, will it be much easier for her to add those finishing touches when she's more mature?  

 

I know what you mean. Piano is my instrument as well. I'm learning so much about music as I accompany my children through their musical journies. Firstly, I never realized how lonely the piano was, and how important ensemble play is for other instruments. This is a great thing, and has been so motivating for all my 4 children (2 in violin and 2 in classical guitar). Their confidence to play in front of others is light-years beyond where I was until I recently started playing piano for our church music ministry. It's going to be really exciting to see where they end up and what role music plays in their life. I just want them to be able to enjoy playing music for a lifetime by providing a solid foundation.

 

 

 

 

[violamama]

Thanks, violamam. I really appreciate your response. I am constantly amazed by the level of playing that my son's teacher is able to raise him to. It's very exciting to see.  The difficult part for me is trying to reproduce the mimicing at home for daily practice when I don't play violin, and also finding a "happy middle ground" in the amount of time and focused practice needed to keep playing the violin an enjoyable activity. He loved moving quickly through new pieces in books 1 - 3, but is finding it less motivating to spend the months needed to polish his recital song. The results of all this work are truly amazing, but it does involve a certain amount of maturity and discipline. He does play shorter studies and exercises, but these aren't usually as exciting as the concertos. Fortunately, we have a very experienced and talented teacher, who does a marvellous job working with students of all ages and personalities. The last thing I want is for his obvious talent for the violin to become a hated chore. My goal is for him to enjoy making music throughout his life-time. 

Yup, the dreaded book 4 slow-down (as perceived by the kid)! 

 

I hear you. Sounds like you have struck a great balance and have a great teacher. 

 

I bet you've already found some of the great YouTube performances of book 4 works out there in the world. There is a jazzy version of the Bach double that's tons of fun. Sometimes in book 4 I also let a kid add in some fiddling or pop melodies if they're interested. Boys in particular seem to like that because the fiddle tunes are so frenetic and note-y. 

 

[wintermom]

Yup, the dreaded book 4 slow-down (as perceived by the kid)! 

 

I hear you. Sounds like you have struck a great balance and have a great teacher. 

 

I bet you've already found some of the great YouTube performances of book 4 works out there in the world. There is a jazzy version of the Bach double that's tons of fun. Sometimes in book 4 I also let a kid add in some fiddling or pop melodies if they're interested. Boys in particular seem to like that because the fiddle tunes are so frenetic and note-y. 

 

 

Thanks! This is a really inovative version of the Bach Double.

 

Yes, we've added in some fiddle and pop songs, which he does enjoy. 

 

I guess the goal is to keep that joy in making music alive through whatever means works for the individual.

 

Thanks so much for your ideas.

[Donna]

I remember when my dd was very young, her teacher once told me a different teacher might have her playing much more advanced repertoire but at the time she (current teacher) wanted her to have the technical ability to play those pieces easily when she got to them.

 

Dd could play the notes of anything she heard. It came so easily to her (by 4yo she was playing the notes of everything through Suzuki Book 4 though she wasn't yet "learning" those pieces officially with her teacher and she'd play bits of anything she heard her teacher's more advanced students play in concerts or pieces she listened to on youtube). She knew her fingerboard, had an amazing ear, and once she had listened to something more than once, she could play it.

 

But there is a lot more to playing a violin piece than being able to play the notes. (You can watch different kids playing the same piece on youtube and see the differences in technical ability and musicality.) When dd was at the point of playing things about the same technical level as the Accolay and even earlier, she and her teacher spent weeks and weeks on a piece. They seemed to pick apart and discuss every note, every shift, and every phrase talking about bow speed, bow distribution, dynamics, phrasing, trying different fingerings, etc… Lessons were never about learning the notes of a piece because dd already knew those. 

 

It took participation in an orchestra for dd to learn to read music well but even then once she heard the music, even herself playing it once, she knew it. We worked on reading at home but always had to have her read something new for her to actually be "reading" the music so I bought a number of books for reading practice (Tune a Day type books and little duet books where I would play one part on piano while she read the other then we'd switch parts the next day).

 

Keeping the love of playing alive has been my biggest goal for dd. That has meant advocating for her with her teacher if dd felt she needed something a little different. There were a few times over the years when her teacher was really pushing technique through scales and etudes rather than moving forward with pieces. Dd would be okay for a little while but when she complained, I let her teacher know and she changed things up. OP, please do not be afraid to advocate for your dd. The teacher may know violin but you know your dd best. At six, it should all be fun.

 

Good luck on your journey with your dd. 

[lewelma]

  It is not my preference for my dd to make such a huge leap with violin, but I am not a professional violinist and I have given over the reigns to her new teacher.  Maybe he has seen students do this before and he knows she is capable.  I don't know.

 

Maybe the goal is to build up the repertoire and strength at this age, so when she is older and more mature things like phrasing, dynamics, etc. can be worked on with ease?  I am thinking this is the goal.

 

Our current teacher has had my younger play pieces that seemed to advanced for him, such that he could not play them perfectly.  But I have realised that this is because he is working on just one thing in that piece - some fancy bowing, or vibrato, or tricky first finger movement.  He keeps the passion alive by allowing my son to move on to another piece before every single detail is hammered out.  So no one piece sounds terrific because that would take months of work, but over the course of 10 pieces you see amazing improvement.  Every year or two, he has the kids take an exam where 3 pieces have to be absolutely polished which takes months.  So it really is a balance. And if you have the best teacher out there, then you have to trust him/her to do the right thing.

 

I didn't know if you saw my earlier post (#23) but your dd does not have to be in an orchestra.  We have found a couple of kids each year (and often over a series of years) that want to be in a trio/quartet and are playing at my kid's level, and this allows for camaraderie and development of musicality.  Last year, my older had to work really hard to make his full size violin work well with a 1/2 in sound quality and strength.  The two violinists also took turns with who played the first vs second violin parts, allowing each to study both sides of performance - lead and support.  Once again, we have excellent teachers who really get to know the kids. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[rainbird2]

Ruth in NZ, please let your son know that I thought his performance was just beautiful and very expressive!  What a beautiful bow arm!!  Thank you for sharing that video with us...it really brought joy to my heart.  I know how hard they had to work to pull that together, especially with such musicality and expression.  Bravo to the trio!!

 

Getting together for chamber music is a wonderful suggestion.  I will definitely pursue this option with my dd, especially since her teacher has students her age.  Thank you for the suggestion!

 

Donna, I'm glad you chimed in...I appreciate your perspective and will take your advice to heart.  Thanks again...