Can someone please tell me about the philosophical approach Math-U-See uses

[lewelma]

I'm considering tutoring a homeschooled girl who has been using Math-U-See for a number of years.  She is 12 and is in the Delta (yellow?) book.  I understand this is behind, but that is because her mother had her spend a year on her math facts in isolation and then has not been vigilant about having her daughter do math daily.  So I am not convinced that she has trouble with math, it might just be lack of time spent actually doing it.

 

Before I assess her, I'd like to know the philosophy behind Math-U-See.  My general understanding from reading here is that it mostly focuses on algorithmic aspect of mathematics and that it is somewhat simpler than other programs like Saxon or Singapore.  I saw it about 4 years ago and I remember a year of multiplication and a year of division for the third and forth grade books.  Is this right?  Her mom says that she has never done fractions, would this be right?  Is it reasonable to expect a reasonably bright and somewhat motivated student (who has no parental help) to work through this program at more than a book a year?  What is the order the material is introduced? Is the drill and instruction effective?  What type of student is the program good for?  Who does it fail?  What are its strengths and weaknesses? 

 

I'm all ears. :bigear:

 

Thanks!

 

Ruth in NZ

[bluedarling]

Yes, everything you have stated seems accurate....a year of multiplication in 3rd, year of division in 4th (Delta), a year of fractions in 5th and decimals in 6th.  (So she won't have had much in the way of decimals, either!)  It is most certainly normal to work through more than one book a year....my LD child did about 1.5 books, while my gifted/add student did 2.  This is how my older kids caught up in math.   I LOVE MUS.   My eldest (LD child) tested into Pre-Calculus on the Accuplacer even though he was only in Algebra!  (Don't worry...he's not taking it.)  Its been extremely effective here.  My boys would be overwhelmed by the amount on a page in Saxon...MUS was a perfect fit with 20 problems spaced out on 2 pages of a workbook (no copying problems).  There is just enough problems to ensure mastery (we don't do every worksheet normally, but we have on occasion...like long division!)  I like it for all my students, though my youngest hates it (gifted and hates drill)...but I keep her in it because I believe it lays a really firm foundation.   My older kids all had high problem solving, but really low procedural test scores.  MUS corrected that, and brought up their procedural scores.  Possibly if they were good at procedural already, and just needed to work on problem solving it would not be the best fit?   Strengths: easy layout, reasonable amount of work, some review (enough to keep it fresh), mastery required before moving on, easy for parents to administer (I can teach multiple children without getting overwhelmed).  Weaknesses:  more drill than problem solving (we are supplementing), some find it to be not challenging enough

[Pen]

I'm not sure about "philosophy"

 

My son did Gamma and Delta in 3rd grade and is wonderfully solid in all his skills from those levels. It is easy to accelerate since one can use fewer of the pages if they are not needed. We did an hour per day since some parts are easy and other parts harder. We used it because the page lay out is clean and gives lots of writing space which was helpful given his dyslexia/dysgraphia issues.  I should probably have kept him in it the next year despite his complaints that it was boring and he wanted something else.

 

It is certainly good for a child who can use the videos and/or manipulatives and'or does well with black and white clean lay out. Not so good if a child does better with more color, more wordy explanations.

 

He then went to MM5th grade program, with some other supplements for his fractions, decimals etc. I think MUS was a better fit, even though he is a slightly "mathy" child who also enjoyed things like Beast Academy (but it came out a little too late to be anything but a fun supplement)--it did not seem like he missed out on a conceptual understanding from MUS.  If anything I think his conceptual understanding of things that were in MUS is stronger than what he got from MM even though the latter is supposed to be more conceptual.

 

Singapore and Saxon are just very different. Saxon is very wordy and dense in layout, for example. For a child who learned best from written word explanations it could be a better fit. Also, my son is using Saxon now in addition to AoPs because I think he needs the repetition that Saxon gives at this time. Singapore was not on my radar when I was starting on the path, so I cannot compare it really.

[lewelma]

Thanks so much for this info guys.  Very helpful.

 

So how far behind is she?  Are you saying she has just finished the 3rd grade book and she is 12?  eeeek!

 

What comes after decimals?

[tomandlorih]

MUS focuses on pretty much one thing at a time and always, always with a great emphasis on really understanding place value and the WHY of the math.  For example, my dd didn't blink an eye when it came time to learn borrowing in subtraction because she knew place value and it was borrowing a ten to have enough to subtract from.. but anyway.

Alpha - Single Digit Addition and Subtraction
Beta - Multiple Digit Addition and Subtraction
Gamma - Multiplication
Delta - Division
Epsilon - Fractions
Zeta - Decimals and Percents

Then you start with Pre-Algebra etc.

We are on Zeta (as a fifth grader) but we started with Alpha in Kindergarten and not with the Primer so we are " a year ahead" so to speak.  I love the mastery based approach but I also supplement with TT to fill in the extra little things since we do standardized testing each year. 

[lewelma]

Thanks for that.

 

So after zeta there is preA, algebra, then geometry?  I'm trying to figure out how to get this kid into an integrated exam system by age 16.  So making kind of a long term plan.

 

How many word problems are there?  And how hard are they?  There are word problems and then there are Word Problems.  The exam system here is *very* heavy on word problems.

[Another Lynn]

It has been several years since we used MUS.  It does portray itself as focusing on conceptual understanding.  In fact, sometimes the DVD lesson presents several different ways to see or do a problem (thinking about double digit multiplication), which can be confusing to a young student seeing it for the first time.  I found that some of mine needed to learn the algorithm first (and learn it one way!  not a couple different confusing ways) and understand more about what it meant afterwards.  Also, for "grade level" students (yeah, I know MUS doesn't call them grade levels), the end of gamma and delta can feel overwhelming with a whole page of twenty or so long multiplication problems or long division problems.  If you hit a wall with long division, there's no where to go but to tears or to something else for awhile and then come back to it.  For a student in that situation, little bites of it every day mixed in with other types of math is much more effective.  Basically, to me MUS felt like starting each year on a nice flat plain, at a nice slow jog, and then two-thirds of the way through attempting to sprint straight up an impossible mountain, rather than following the road that gently spirals to the top.

 

The word problems have long had a reputation of being weak.  I believe Sue in St. Pete and others who used MUS at the elementary level supplemented with Singapore's CWP a grade behind.

[Lori D.]

re: MUS philosophy and order of topic presentation

Check out the Math-U-See website for info on the approach, and a demo video. Also, you can look at the table of contents for each level by clicking on it, which will give you a good idea of the topics covered and scope and sequence for each level. MUS is mastery-based, with the elementary grades focusing on a single topic for a year. There is weekly built-in review of past concepts from previous years in each lesson, plus word problems. The quick run-down:

 

Alpha = addition/subtraction (single digit)

Beta =  addition/subtraction (multiple digit)

Gamma = multiplication

Delta = division

Epsilon = fractions

Zeta = percents & decimals

Pre-Algebra (a fairly lite program as far as topics typically covered in Pre-Algebra)

Algebra 1

Geometry

Algebra 2

Pre-Calculus

Stewardship (a consumer math/personal finance type of program)

 

Yes, I would say MUS is more simple than Saxon and Singapore (we've also used both of those). It covers not quite as many topics as either, but it is not lacking any key topics. I guess I would describe it as "streamlined".

 

 

re: program strengths & weaknesses

As with all math programs, it's a strength if it's working for a particular student, and a weakness if it's not working. :)

 

A strength: The program is geared for very concrete visual explanations of math concepts. In addition to giving the algorithm, Steve Demme also gives the visual "big picture" of why it works, or what it means, using the manipulatives of the rods/blocks, and fraction overlays. This is a strength for students who need visual/concrete explanations.

 

A strength/weakness: Fractions are probably the least traditional in visual presentation -- the explanation is pretty standard, but the visualization of the overlays is unique. Either students "click" with this method -- or they don't. So, students for whom this way of visualizing helps -- it is awesome, because fractions really trip up a lot of students. But if students don't get it, or find this method confusing, a more traditional method might be needed. A side note: Epsilon lesson 23 (dividing fractions and mixed numbers) is where a number of students who have done well with MUS previously can stall out. Not sure that's necessarily a fault of MUS, but rather that it's a tough concept. The problem is that because MUS is mastery-based, you have to get a concept before moving on -- you can't skip it and come back to it, as the successive lessons build on the previous lessons. This is where having a supplement to go to can to very helpful.

 

A weakness: The word problems are not as strong, complex, or varied as *I* think would be good, so we supplemented with Singapore.

 

 

re: is it effective / what type of student is it good for

Again, as with all math programs, MUS is effective for some, not for all. Who is the program good for?

 

- Visual-spatial learners and any student who needs very visual or concrete explanations of the abstract concepts of math.

- Students who need a very gentle, slow, incremental mastery approach.

- 8FillTheHeart uses the high school levels of MUS as a gentle intro exposure program, and then her students repeat with a more rigorous program

- I've also read on this board of several more traditional-style learners who excelled with MUS and went on into STEM fields in college and did well so well in their math classes that they ended up tutoring others through the class

 

 

re: doing more than a book a year

Yes, depending on the student -- how quickly they grasp the topic, how ready they are for the topic, and how much an instructor tutors with them -- it is possible to do more than one book in a year. The books are laid out with 30 lessons per year. At a standard pace, you complete 1 lesson every 4-5 days. If the student is understanding the concepts, or the concepts are review, it is pretty straight forward to complete 2 lessons per week.

 

I don't know how possible it would be for a student who has NO parent/instructor assistance to do more than one program in a year. And for this particular case, I would make sure this bright 12yo girl had regular teacher interaction at least 3x/week to help her catch up. She's about to move into trickier math concepts of fractions, decimals and percents, and a good teacher makes sure you see they are inter-related concepts. Otherwise, regardless of WHAT math program you use, they will seem like separate strange concepts to try and memorize a lot of operations and techniques for each. Also, word problems become more complex at this stage -- another reason a teacher is very helpful.

 

Our personal example:

DS#2 was a math struggler (very VS-learner, does NOT get abstract math such as math fact drill, rote equations/algorithms and algebra topics), and we *finally* found what clicked for him -- MUS, in 5th grade (DS was 10/11yo). We started with the original (Classic) edition, which had gr. 4,5,6 topics all in one, and we completed all of that in one year. The following year, to make sure he was solid with foundational math skills, I backed up and had him do the newer MUS editions which each focused on one topic per year. From there he did:

 

grade 6 (11/12yo)

- spine, took approx. 9 weeks = all of MUS Delta, division

- spine, took approx. 18 weeks = all of MUS Epsilon, fractions

- bonus, 9 weeks = started the first 6-9 lessons of MUS Zeta, percents & decimals

- supplement, excerpts = Keys to Fractions workbooks

- supplement, excerpts = Singapore 4A/B

 

grade 7 (12/13yo)

- spine = all of MUS Zeta, percents & decimals

- supplement, excerpts = Keys to Fractions workbooks on Percents and Decimals

- supplement, much of = Singapore 5A/B

 

grade 8  (13/14yo)

- spine = all of MUS Pre-Algebra

- supplement = much of Singapore 6A/B

 

Each MUS lesson has 5 worksheets (A,B,C,D,E), one for each day of the week.

A and B pages are intros to the new concept; C and D work more deeply with the concept, have some word problems, and have review problems of past concepts, and the E page is similar to C & D, but with more review problems. To accelerate, we did this:

day 1 = watch the video, do page A and C

day 2 = do page B and D

day 3 = do page E -- and if needed, the test page

day 4 = watch the video for the next lesson, do page A and C

day 5 = do page B and D

 

That takes 6 days to get through 2 lessons; if you need to complete 2 lessons in 1 week, then you can either do pages A, C AND D on day one, and pages B and E on day two. Or, if the student really gets it, skip one page out of the five pages.

 

Based on your description of this young lady's situation. Yes, I think she could continue with MUS and catch up by doing 2 programs in one year, or more likely 1.5 programs a year for the next 3 years PLUS some additional supplements to bolster problem-solving -- IF she has teacher support AND if she "clicks" with fractions and the way MUS covers them. My biggest recommendations for this situation, based on what you've shared:

 

1. get this young lady regular teaching support (daily would be best; but 3x/week if daily is not possible)

2. supplement MUS, to show fractions, decimals and percents from more than one perspective to more quickly get her up to speed AND to give her an extra-solid foundation in math basics she'll need for the higher maths

3. if MUS Epsilon is not "clicking" after about 10-12 lessons, fill in whatever gaps you can with a program that DOES click for her, and move to a more traditional teaching method program

 

Hope something there was of help! BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Lori D.]

So after zeta there is preA, algebra, then geometry?  I'm trying to figure out how to get this kid into an integrated exam system by age 16.  So making kind of a long term plan.

 

Delta = division

Epsilon = fractions

Zeta = percents & decimals

Pre-Algebra (a fairly lite program as far as topics typically covered in Pre-Algebra)

Algebra 1

Geometry

Algebra 2

Pre-Calculus

(plus: Stewardship -- a consumer math/personal finance type of program)

 

I think you can get a 12yo up through Geometry by age 16. Since the test is heavy on word problems, I would definitely be supplementing MUS with other things that work with word problems and problem-solving techniques.

 

BTW, I thought the MUS Pre-Algebra was light, esp. if switching programs at that point. Also, the MUS Algebra 1 and Geometry are light. The Geometry is VERY lite on proofs, with the majority of the program focused on the physical aspects of volume, area, circumference, and some work with angles and lines.

 

An option might be to continue with MUS if that is what the 12yo is connecting with, up through Pre-Algebra, and then switch to/repeat with something like Lial's Pre-Algebra and then go on to whatever Algebra 1 and Geometry would be a good prep for your national tests:

 

age 12 = MUS Epsilon and 0.5 MUS Zeta (+ supplement for problem-solving support)

age 13 = 0.5 MUS Zeta and Mus Pre-Algebra (+ supplement for problem-solving support)

age 14 = Lial's (or other) Pre-Algebra

age 15 = Algebra 1

age 16 = Geometry

 

 

How many word problems are there?  And how hard are they?  There are word problems and then there are Word Problems.  The exam system here is *very* heavy on word problems.

 

Word problems make up maybe 20% of each worksheet for the last 3 of the 5 worksheets for each lesson. Here are samples, copied from the sample pages provided at the website:

 

 

MUZ Zeta, lesson 4

17. Jon had $4.51 in one pocket and $0.35 in another pocket. How much money did he have in all? (When solving decimal problems, be sure to line up the decimal points.)

18. Emily drove 1.5 miles in the morning and 2.72 miles in the afternoon. How many miles did she drive in all today?

17. Andrew bought a shirt for $12.95 and a pair of jeans for $15.50. How much did Andrew have to pay altogether? 

18. Clyde sold 0.625 gallons of lemonade in the morning. The afternoon was hotter, and he sold 2.125 gallons of lemonade. How many gallons of lemonade did Clyde sell that day?

17. Jean bought 4.3 bushels of apples and 0.5 bushels of pears. How many bushels of fruit did she buy? 

18. A meteorologist had a gauge that could measure rainfall to the thousandth of an inch. On Monday his gauge recorded 2.045 inches, and on Tuesday it

 

MUS Pre-Algebra, lesson 3

17. The team lost three games a week. What is its record at the end of six weeks?

18. Jim managed to lose 25 cents a day for 10 days. Express his loss as –25 cents a day. What was his total loss?

19. Karen’s budget was short $30 more every month. Express her shortfall as –30. How much was she short at the end of a year?

20. Peter’s feet are 12 inches long. He stepped out the length and width of a room and found it was 10 feet by 12 feet. What is the area of the room?*

 

MUS Algebra, lesson 20

18. The base of a rectangle is X + 4, and the height is X + 5. What is the area of the rectangle? (Remember that the area of a rectangle is base times the height.)

19. Find the area of the rectangle in #18 if X equals six.

20. Take two times the base and height of the rectangle in #18, using the distributive property, and then find the polynomial that expresses the new area.

19. Find the area of the rectangle in #18 if X equals 10.

20. The area of a second rectangle is X2 + 3X + 1. What is the sum of the area of the two rectangles (from #18 and #20)?

 

In real life, a scientist may wish to find the value of m for a certain number of months without finding every value in between. In this case, m = 200(.5)x, where x stands for the number of months. Compare the example to the corresponding value on your chart.

 

Example m = 200(.5)x. Find the value of m after four months.   m = 200(.5)4 m = 200(.0625) = 12.5 grams

7. Use the equation given above to find the mass of the substance after six months.

[Garga]

I don't know when they implemented it, but we started on the pre-algebra book this year and all of a sudden there are these "honor pages."  One per lesson, the honors page is all word problems.  I think MUS has been told they don't have enough word problems (that's what I've read on the hive), so I suppose they added them in.  Something in the introduction made me think these were a recent additional to the prealgebra program.  I believe it said that if you had an older teacher's guide, you could go online for the answers to the honors questions, so they're relatively new.

[kiwik]

Is she looking to do NZCEA Ruth? Or Cambridge or something?

[Clear Creek]

I'm considering tutoring a homeschooled girl who has been using Math-U-See for a number of years.  She is 12 and is in the Delta (yellow?) book.  I understand this is behind, but that is because her mother had her spend a year on her math facts in isolation and then has not been vigilant about having her daughter do math daily.  So I am not convinced that she has trouble with math, it might just be lack of time spent actually doing it.

 

Before I assess her, I'd like to know the philosophy behind Math-U-See.  My general understanding from reading here is that it mostly focuses on algorithmic aspect of mathematics and that it is somewhat simpler than other programs like Saxon or Singapore. It definitely teaches the conceptual side of arithmetic; whenever my daughter needed further examples of a concept in the early books I would look up the Education Unboxed video on the same concept. Every video we watched used the exact same method to solve the problem that Mr. Demme did in the MUS video.  I saw it about 4 years ago and I remember a year of multiplication and a year of division for the third and forth grade books.  Is this right?  Her mom says that she has never done fractions, would this be right? My daughter is finishing up Gamma, the book before Delta, and she learned how to make equivalent fractions, so she has had some exposure to fractions already. There is no addition/subtraction/multiplication/division of fractions in Gamma, but there is exposure. I haven't glanced through the Delta book to see what is covered in it yet.  Is it reasonable to expect a reasonably bright and somewhat motivated student (who has no parental help) to work through this program at more than a book a year? By without parental help, do you mean with your help instead? If you mean with your help, then definitely. If you mean on her own without any help from an adult, then no; but I would say that about any math program, not just MUS.  What is the order the material is introduced? In Delta the concepts covered are (to quote the website):

 

Major Concepts and Skills Include:

• Using strategies based on place value and properties of operations to divide
• Understanding division as solving for an unknown factor
• Fluently dividing any combination of whole numbers
• Solving abstract and real-world problems involving all four operations
• Interpreting remainders in short and long division
• Understanding fraction notation in light of division

 

Additional Concepts and Skills:

• Reading and writing Roman numerals
• Dividing, multiplying, adding, and subtracting U.S. currency and standard units of measure
• Understanding angle measure and geometric shapes including points, segments, rays, and lines
• Classifying shapes based on defining attributes
• Understanding and computing area and volume

The website has a PDF with the TOC for each level.

Is the drill and instruction effective? I can only speak for the lower levels so far, but yes. The higher levels would need supplementing for word problems.   What type of student is the program good for? Any student who needs thorough explanations of concepts and doesn't make the conceptual leaps on their own. Also for any child that gets overwhelmed with a large number of problems on a page or in a lesson.  Who does it fail? Students still need a teacher. Without an involved adult and definitely without consistent daily practice, I don't think most students would do well with this. I would also say that about every other math program at the elementary level, though. What are its strengths and weaknesses? Like someone else mentioned, it is very streamlined - I don't have to just assign evens or odds or parts of a section like I did with R&S and like I have seen people do with Saxon. Every problem serves a purpose, it is not just drilling the same concept over and over. It is extremely adaptable to the individual student...there are three lessons covering the new concept and three review lessons that include the new concept and various things that were learned previously. The review lessons cycle through previous concepts so that nothing is forgotten. If the student shows mastery before the first three worksheets are done, he can move on to the review worksheets and work on as many as are necessary. Once the student shows mastery of the new concept, he can take the lesson test and move on to the next lesson. If a student needs more time on a concept, there is a free worksheet generator on the MUS website that corresponds to the lessons in each book. So a quick student can move on to the next lesson after a couple days and a struggling student can stay with the lesson for ten days, if that is what he needs. The only weakness I can see so far (when looking ahead) would be word problems; they are very simplistic and don't require a lot of thought.

 

I'm all ears. :bigear:

 

Thanks!

 

Ruth in NZ

 

My answers are in blue.

 

[Lori D.]

…. we started on the pre-algebra book this year and all of a sudden there are these "honor pages."  One per lesson, the honors page is all word problems...

 

But unless the problems are more varied in type, and in wording, and have increasing levels of complexity, just an increased volume of the same type of word problems will not really help a student with problem-solving in the way the variety of types of word problems in Singapore or Art of Problem Solving do.

 

(Not picking on you, Garga! I appreciate you adding this info. :) My comment was for llewelma's information since she is needing materials that help a student prepare for difficult/complex word problems for the high school standardized test.)

 

_________________

 

 

And … totally agreeing with Clear Creek that all math programs need adult participation. :)

[lewelma]

Is she looking to do NZCEA Ruth? Or Cambridge or something?

 

Please don't quote this.

 

Well, here's the rub, the mom is not sure that she will do any exams or that she will go to university.  The mom is just kind of uncertain as to the future and is just putting one foot in front of the other. She is very nervous about me even assessing her dd for fear that I will judge her poorly (she is a friend of mine), and I really don't want to put my foot in it so I need to tread carefully.  She has suggested that *I* tutor her daughter, but I live 20miles away, and she is talking 1 day a week I think. The mom does not have any and I mean any confidence in her maths skills and the dad is really too busy with work to be involved.

 

I told her that if it were my dd, I would not want to close doors to university, so she has to get through NCEA 1.  She can do this through correspondence school at 16 (a year to a year and a half behind).  It seems that she would need to finish MUS algebra *before* starting NCEA1 and it might take her 1.5 years to be ready for the NCEA 1 exam because she will be switching systems (american to NZ) and there are different topics to know (statistics for example)  Not sure if she needs to also have finished MUS geometry before NCEA1, can't really tell yet. 

 

So seems like

age 12.5-13 Delta

13-14 Epsilon 1/2 zeta

14-15  1/2 zeta and preA

15-16 Algebra

 

I definitely think she needs a tutor who can come more than once a week, and they have the money.

 

My main concern is that MUS is not an easy program to accelerate, and there is not huge motivation on the mom's part to make this happen.  Just a niggling feeling that she is not quite meeting her daughter's needs.  Plus, she is a friend so I really want to tread carefully.

 

So please no flaming of this friend of mine, and no quoting.  But I am open to more suggestions.

 

[lewelma]

Thanks everyone for such detailed responses.  Will look at all the links and read up. 

[maize]

Would mom be be open to considering other programs? I think Math Mammoth is fairly easy to accelerate, and by next year the program will go through pre-algebra. It provides a solid conceptual foundation, especially if the student has access to a tutor who could provide further help as needed. She could then transition to any upper level math program.

[maize]

Our experience accelerating with MM: dd11 started with 2B 2.5 years ago, she completed 5B this past spring (so about two years to get through 3.5 levels) she has slowed down in 6A, partly because we are emphasizing other things at the moment but she has also hit a point where the work is harder for her. DD does fine with math but is not particularly gifted or passionate about it.

[Pen]

My experience was that MUS WAS easy to accelerate. Though that would depend on the child's learning speed, of course. An important thing was to do an hour daily, and get as far as one could, doing only as many sheets at a level as were needed before "getting" it and moving on. Early in a book one might be able to do a lesson per day (maybe even 2) because they were very easy. Late in book it might slow to a lesson per week, or even two weeks to do a lesson (and sometimes extra supplements like Khan Academy...I think at one point in division we used "partial quotient" method before returning to Delta, also sometimes I taught ds different algorithms than MUS used). If you (a student that is) were to do just a lesson or 2 per week at the beginning of books, I do not think accelerating would work out because you would need to spend too much time and it would be too grueling at the ends of the book, but doing it with a reasonable daily set time worked really well.

 

Having now written about this and read other people's replies, I just discussed with ds going back to MUS, on the grounds that its only problem was that it was boring. But it was easy to learn it, and he would probably be done with their Algebra by now. Even though not at an AoPS level, he would still, I think, be better off with that background and being able to take a more deep course like AoPS later if desired.

 

Whether your friend's child can do it on her own mainly depends on her learning skills. It may be that the child could learn from the film, and then show it to her mom on a daily basis, teaching the mom and learning herself at the same time. I think MUS has consultants who one can call/email with problems, though I am not sure about that, anyway maybe that plus you once a week if that worked out (or maybe contact by email between?) plus something like Khan Academy would be enough for mostly independent learning.

 

 

[Pen]

I think you'd want work to continue in summers (or at least part of them) and maybe since she is behind but somewhat motivated do 2 45 minute sessions per day and try for more than 2 levels per year if possible:

 

age 12.5-13 Delta (and start Epsilon if possible)

13-14 Epsilon and  zeta, start pre-A if possible

14-15  preA and Algebra

15-16 Geometry (and Statistics from other source as needed).

 

Or at age 14 after pre-A is done, shift to Saxon Algebra with Geometry and then do the Statistics program you say is needed at age 15, as a second math class in the same year if necessary.

[lewelma]

The problem is that the mom is not super concerned.  Just vaguely so. So I'm guessing if I say 1 hour a day she *might* be generally ok with that, but two 45 minute sessions are extremely unlikely. 

 

For the Americans, NCEA1 is taken at the end of 10th grade and covers algebra 1, non-proof based geometry, very basic trig, and basic probability and statistics.  It is *completely* written in word problems -- really long ones (like a full page typed) with many steps.  The curriculum is integrated so these topics are studied in every increasing difficulty in 8th, 9th, and 10th grade.

 

I do have a friend who has used MUS and then transitioned to NCEA, so sounds like I definitely need to talk to her.

 

My current guess is that if she gets through MUS Algebra 1 and maybe part of geometry, she would be decently prepared to complete the NCEA1 curriculum in 1.5 years, with the exception of word problems (so would need to supplement) She could take the exam either in 11th or 12th grade.

 

But what I need to do is make it seem possible and not an overwhelming burden.

 

I really like the idea of accelerating the first half of each year and slowing down for the second half, that is a very very useful piece of information/advice.

 

As for switching programs, I doubt this is on the table.  So I am glad MUS can be accelerated. (assuming that this is not a cognitive problem, which it might be given that I have not actually assessed the girl. I'm really hoping it is a lack of time problem).

 

Thanks for all the advice!

[nannyaunt]

What about an online class?  One that has an actual teacher online and teaches the class. 

[Pen]

 

I really like the idea of accelerating the first half of each year and slowing down for the second half, that is a very very useful piece of information/advice.

 

 

 

Not exactly first half and second half. As I recall the levels started easy-peasy...like the only hard part was dealing with dysgraphia of actually writing answers, otherwise it could have been maybe 10 minutes to do a lesson and understand it, 15 including the video. They got more or less progressively harder through each book, so that by end one had, say multi-digit by multi-digit multiplication problems, or long long division problems, which simply took more time, as well as, as I recall, a temporary hump to get over part way through Delta when it got to long division with multi-digit dividends and divisors--that is to catch on to that was a hump.  Or maybe it was a mountain at the time, that now looking back seems to be just a hump.

 

Does the mom have to be the one to go with how long per day, or is the child at a point to want to make progress and do what it takes to make progress? In school, wouldn't there be around an hour in school plus some homework?

[lewelma]

I'm with you Pen.  I'm hoping that I can get the girl to have her own goals.  But I think there has just been so little emphasis put on math that she does not know how far behind she is.  And she has no clear goals yet for post homeschooling. But I do plan to gently talk to her about keeping her doors open by achieving the minimum university entrance requirement for maths. 

 

Nannyaunt, Interesting idea about an online program.  Hadn't thought of that.  What is out there at this level?

[Garga]

But unless the problems are more varied in type, and in wording, and have increasing levels of complexity, just an increased volume of the same type of word problems will not really help a student with problem-solving in the way the variety of types of word problems in Singapore or Art of Problem Solving do.

 

(Not picking on you, Garga! I appreciate you adding this info. :) My comment was for llewelma's information since she is needing materials that help a student prepare for difficult/complex word problems for the high school standardized test.)

 

_________________

 

 

And … totally agreeing with Clear Creek that all math programs need adult participation. :)

Good point, Lori. I just assigned the first one to my son without looking at it, so I can't say for sure that they're more complex. When I glanced at the sheet, the problems did seem more complex than normal, but I didn't study it in depth. Perhaps the OP could ask MUS for a sample of the word problems on the honors pages? And still, waiting until pre-alg might be waiting too long for her needs.

[lewelma]

I'm going to talk to the mum today and will have more questions for you guys then.  Thanks so much for your help!

 

Ruth in NZ

[lewelma]

One more question.  Long division is not taught here, and students are allowed to use calculators on all exams.  Is it worth an entire year to go through the division book?

[nannyaunt]

Are you in the US?  Not to be nosy but the ones I have seen are in the US and the whole time zone thing would be a Huge factor.

 

I know Laurel Springs does a complete online curriculum.  I don't know if they will allow only math enrollment. 

Oak Meadow also has an online component but it looks like they are doing a revision and it is unavailable, but I don't know for how long. 

 

I believe K12 allows single subject enrollment.  Connection Academy and K12 can be free but I don't know if that is for single subject enrollment.  I have also seen mixed reviews on YouTube for both K12 and Connection Academy. 

 

The Keystone Academy does single subject and full curriculum. 

 

Liberty University has an online academy. 

 

I am not certain these are all teacher led classes.  But even if not, they should give her access to teachers she can pull up in chat if she has a problem.

[Pen]

Nannyaunt, they are in New Zealand.

 

 

One more question.  Long division is not taught here, and students are allowed to use calculators on all exams.  Is it worth an entire year to go through the division book?

 

Wow!

 

I guess if not needed, then not worth spending time on long division. Though it does include things like how to calculate the area of a trapezoid, and some other things, like finding the mean avg, that require division. You could glance through the book since I guess she already has Delta and see what you think is worth devoting time to.

[maize]

If long division is not required it is probably not worth spending oodles of time on. It has some applications in algebra where being familiar with the concept is helpful, but I bet you could move through it quickly with familiarization rather than mastery as the goal.

[maize]

I am wondering if the student would buy into the idea of one session in her regular math program every day plus x minutes working systematically through Khan academy? Do regular math in the morning and Khan in the afternoon? Seems that might be a way to reinforce concepts and fill in amy gaps.

[maize]

Isn't there a way to set up a tutor account with Khan so you could keep tabs on her progress there? I think I am remembering correctly that such a set-up is possible...

[sweetpea3829]

I'm considering tutoring a homeschooled girl who has been using Math-U-See for a number of years.  She is 12 and is in the Delta (yellow?) book.  I understand this is behind, but that is because her mother had her spend a year on her math facts in isolation and then has not been vigilant about having her daughter do math daily.  So I am not convinced that she has trouble with math, it might just be lack of time spent actually doing it.

 

Before I assess her, I'd like to know the philosophy behind Math-U-See.  My general understanding from reading here is that it mostly focuses on algorithmic aspect of mathematics and that it is somewhat simpler than other programs like Saxon or Singapore.  I saw it about 4 years ago and I remember a year of multiplication and a year of division for the third and forth grade books.  Is this right?  Her mom says that she has never done fractions, would this be right?  Is it reasonable to expect a reasonably bright and somewhat motivated student (who has no parental help) to work through this program at more than a book a year?  What is the order the material is introduced? Is the drill and instruction effective?  What type of student is the program good for?  Who does it fail?  What are its strengths and weaknesses? 

 

I'm all ears. :bigear:

 

Thanks!

 

Ruth in NZ

 

We are using MUS with DD8, who is dyscalculic.  She is in Beta level and is making pretty good progress with procedural math.    

 

I, personally, would never choose MUS for an average or above math student.  If I were to use MUS with DS7, who is above-average in math, he would have needed to have completed 3 books in order to have touched upon all of the material he touched upon with one year of Singapore.  

 

An entire book of learning how to add would have driven him batty. 

 

I find the depth of MUS to be very limited.  It is a BASIC math education, with little enrichment and exploration of math concepts.  

 

So for a student like my DD, who needs a no-extras, basics-only math program...it is excellent.  But for everybody else?  No. 

 

Other opinions I have of MUS...

 

1) The video...

 

I love the video...and I hate the video, lol!  Sometimes, Steve's presentation of material is confusing, especially for an LD kiddo.  

 

2) It does have quite a bit of review and it easily provides for spiral review.  This is a definite plus for DD.  

 

3) The blocks are wonderful.  And they can also be a curse.  DD really relies on them.  If she was not severely dyscalculic, my approach would be considerably different, and I would be pushing more for her to do the math problems without the blocks.  But given her LD, I am not pushing too hard with that just yet.  She will likely always require a calculator for even the most basic of computations, so I don't see the need to stress her out at this point, while she's still learning the procedure.  

 

4) It is well organized.  

 

5) The word problems are really weak.  I supplement with Singapore's Process Skills in Problem Solving.  

 

6) I don't agree with folks that knock it for being mastery.  You can generally move ahead, even if your student hasn't actually mastered a lesson.  I *have* to with DD.  If I waited for her to achieve mastery, we'd still be working on counting 100+ because she still really can't do that.  Believe me, we parked for nearly an entire school year, working on basic numeration concepts that she literally cannot yet grasp.  It didn't do either of us a lick of good.  

 

So I plan a full two weeks for each lesson.  Actually, the new material is covered in the first week...and then we review review review in the 2nd week. We review the new material, and we review (a lot) material that she continues to struggle with.  Every day, she has some kind of spiral review activity to work on.  I'm finding that letting her plug on in the textbook, is better for her than parking on a difficult subject.  She also schools year round.  I could not give her the summer off, because we would quite literally have to start all over from the beginning.

 

7) Overall, MUS will provide a general mathematics education, when used from start to finish.  There won't be a ton of depth, but what needs to be covered, will be.  And for a student who's been using it all along, I would probably stick with it, but also add on quite a bit of supplementation.  

 

That's just my .02!!! 

[kiwik]

One more question. Long division is not taught here, and students are allowed to use calculators on all exams. Is it worth an entire year to go through the division book?

It was in 1978! I will teach ds7 as it is useful.

 

What I was thinking is Pearsons do a NZ series. I would start with the stage 5 (y3/4/5) review book (about $13) and stop every time she gets stuck and drag worksheets off the internet. If you can get her solid on the basics you could switch to an NZCEA prep book. If she is home schooled some of the on line stuff might work as long as it is scheduled for the afternoon in the US but it sounds like computer drill would be better unless you were with her during the class. And from someone who didn't even get School Certificate first time round she should at least get NZCEA1.

[Pen]

An update, FYI, ds wants to stick with Saxon/AoPS, not make a return to MUS. I guess the boredom aspect is serious. So, maybe if you are evaluating your friend's dd, checking whether a more interesting/engaging program might be helpful (or interesting supplements or something), as well as whether she has some difficulty with math.

[Pen]

One other thing: Sumdog games online (ones available free seem good enough, but it also gives a paid option which allows a parent or teacher to monitor progress) can be a good resource. Ds got over 800 problems right on it playing today...   If he had that many problems on paper to do he would say no way, impossible.  But as a computer game, it's fun, and I had to tell him to stop and go get outdoor time and exercise. It seems to be mostly arithmetic, including fractions and decimals, and a bit of simple algebra. One extended word problem came up, but could not be read before time for it was up.  Your younger son might find it fun too as well as maybe being a help for friend's dd. It might be able to be a reward for doing, say 45 min MUS to be able to do 15 Sumdog, and then 15 min might just stretch longer. Ds actually mainly learned his basic fractions, decimals and percents on Sumdog. They came up before he'd otherwise had them, and he asked me how to do them.

 

eta: Sumdog is just practice not teaching--I had to teach him how to do the fractions, decimals and percents, but the desire to learn came from them cropping up on his Sumdog games, and the practice doing them was gained on the games. Similarly, it gave him metric system measurements, which are likely not so hard for an NZ child, but for him from USA, it was a lot of practice in quickly trying to figure out whether a car might reasonably weigh 10 kilograms or 1000 kg, say. It seems to stick better than from a workbook.

 

I also like Maize's idea of MUS mornings and Khan Academy afternoons... or they could be interweaved together and as needed to turn to Khan for more help.

[Grover]

One more question.  Long division is not taught here, and students are allowed to use calculators on all exams.  Is it worth an entire year to go through the division book?

um, since when?  It was taught when I was last in a full time classroom (2004) and I've just been helping the neighbour's 10 year old with it this afternoon.  So, um, yeah, huh?

[kiwik]

um, since when? It was taught when I was last in a full time classroom (2004) and I've just been helping the neighbour's 10 year old with it this afternoon. So, um, yeah, huh?

That is a relief. Mind you the ministry website implies that teaching the vertical algorithm for addition is optional "the question us not when but if you teach the vertical algorithm" so maybe some teachers don't teach it.

 

There is a whiteboard on a door at work where someone has done their calculations (both long addition and division) by hand - I work in a scientific institute so not everyone reaches for a calculator.

 

Eta. I don't see needing to a whole year though. It was page after page of long division that put me off maths. I had one of those teachers in standard 4 who gave you more of the same if you finished early (obviously if you got the first 20 correct you needed more practice). Our books were pre decimal so to make it more interesting I did the money ones in pound, shillings and pence rather than converting to dollars and cents. The books must have been 15 years old and were new math style, ugh. Not that that is any help to Ruth or her friend's dd.

[Guest jonioesque]

It is certainly good for a child who can use the videos and/or manipulatives and'or does well with black and white clean lay out. Not so good if a child does better with more color, more wordy explanations.

[kiwik]

And another weird spammer - do you think they are running some sort of spamming software test?

[kiwik]

Just nosy. How did it go?

[Stellalarella]

Ruth--I'm on kid no. 3 with the Delta book.  I do not find we necessarily need to do the whole book.  The Delta book also has 6 (out of the total 30) lessons on geometry, 2 lessons on fractions, 2 on Roman numerals, and some various lessons on rounding and place value.  

 

Lesson 25 (again, of 30) is the final lesson on long division.  A person could easily end the book at Lesson 20 or 22 and then supplement with other materials.