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Should she or shouldn't she? Algebra 1 in 7th grade in ps


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Just not sure what to do--

In order to take Alg 1 in 7th grade ps, dd had to make 91 or better on the Iowa Alg Test, and 480 or better on the state test (7th grade math, which she took this year in 6th).

 

We think she scored over 91 on the Iowa, but aren't sure, as we've heard two different things. She might have scored just barely under.

 

We know she scored plenty high on the SOL.

 

So I have a call in to the school to talk to the math counselor re placement.

 

There's no rush, in our eyes, and dd is a little nervous about taking algebra.

 

So we were just going to keep her in 7th grade Honors math.

 

BUT--she's already had it. She's already made an "advanced pass" score on the SOL.

 

WWYD?

Edited by Chris in VA
took out actual scores
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is there nothing between 7th grade honors and algebra? also i'd assume that if the algebra doesnt work, she can drop down to the 7th honors. I think (at least where my kids went) there was pre-algebra or algebra in 8th, right? so taking algebra in 7th grade was 2 grades ahead.

 

also find out if she would be taking algebra with 7th and 8th graders, or 8th and 9th graders, because that will make a difference. I skipped 7th grade math and was put in a mixed level high school class which was horrible . . everyone hated me for being smarter than they were AND younger

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It depends on what her ultimate goal is. Algebra 1 in 7th is the new standard for honors track kids. When my state mandated Algebra 1 in 8th a few years back, the schools shifted the honors track 1 year ahead so that the bright kids would retain their advantage for college admissions purposes.

 

If she's shooting for a selective college, I would do what I could to have her take Algebra 1 in 7th.

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It depends on what her ultimate goal is. Algebra 1 in 7th is the new standard for honors track kids. When my state mandated Algebra 1 in 8th a few years back, the schools shifted the honors track 1 year ahead so that the bright kids would retain their advantage for college admissions purposes.

 

If she's shooting for a selective college, I would do what I could to have her take Algebra 1 in 7th.

 

This.

 

If there is an issue with the Iowa algebra test, I'd try to find out what the subtest scores were. If it was a low score in the arithmetic section, I'd argue that she be placed in algebra as the state test should have covered the required arithmetic.

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Can you find out more about the honors 7th grade math? It's very possible that the teachers knows many kids will have taken it already, and will accomodate for that.

 

I think 7th grade is quite early for algebra, unless the student is just clamoring for it. I also think it's quite early to start making decisions based on getting into competitive colleges. Algebra in 8th gets you to calculus in 12th, and really, how much more can we cram into high school? What class will she NOT be taking that will make a college go, eh, this kid really screwed up in 7th grade, next!

 

Algebra in 8th has been the honors standard for quite some time now, but every year I see kids get into competitive colleges who didn't take calculus or even pre-calc in high school. Yes, you want to be competitive, but you need to look at the WHOLE PICTURE. Don't get frantic over one class that is now the 'new standard.'

 

I think one needs to balance getting into a competitive college with life and actual learning. Is she ready for algebra? Finishing what comes before algebra doesn't make you ready for algebra, imo. You have to be ready for the abstract thought required, and able to sustain longer periods of work. If she isn't ready, she might still pass algebra, but she won't truly understand it. And look ahead: will she be ready for pre-calc in in 10th grade? Calc in 11th? Lord knows what in 12th?

 

If she were hs'd, my answer would be easy: take a different math in 7th. You don't have that luxury, but I would definitely be getting more info. A repeat might not be too bad after all. Even a repeat that bores her is better, imo, than algebra before she is ready.

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I'm not a fan of the algebra-in-7th-grade push. And I'm a former high school math teacher. I think that the math will have to be watered down to some extent to teach it to ever younger ages. Even sharp kids just won't be as ready for proofs in 8th grade (typical honors geometry) as they would be in 9th grade. And there just aren't that many kids who love math so much that they need to take college level courses beyond BC calc when they are still in high school. Algebra 1 in 8th grade leads to BC calc senior year, at least where I taught. There may be 1 or 2 kids out of 100 who loves math so much that they thrive by getting to the courses early, but for most sharp, competent, college-bound kids, a rigorous Algebra 1 course in 8th grade is the way to go.

 

You know, at the very selective university where I went to school, many many engineering students chose to repeat calculus courses that they had in high school. Accelerating to the higher level courses is just a tough path, and if you're already adjusting to the higher expectations, increased difficulty, and tough competition of a good school, this is one way to find some early success. Higher level college math courses are difficult. While there are some brilliant minds out there who can handle this challenge in high school or at the beginning of their college career, I would argue that it is a very small number that really needs this challenge to thrive.

 

If dd would be bored by the 7th grade honors class, perhaps she can do some work on the side--an AoPS course, statistics, probability, number theory, symbolic logic, etc.

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I'd sign her up, with the understanding that she will repeat it if she needs to. I wouldn't approach that as a punishment, but as a smart option if she doesn't seem to have mastered it. Both of my girls had algebra twice by design.

 

I see no reason to keep a student in junior high math if they have mastered it. It really is just a holding pattern until dc are ready for algebra. Let her move on and learn something new. :001_smile:

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Just not sure what to do--

In order to take Alg 1 in 7th grade ps, dd had to make 91 or better on the Iowa Alg Test, and 480 or better on the state test (7th grade math, which she took this year in 6th).

 

We think she scored over 91 on the Iowa, but aren't sure, as we've heard two different things. She might have scored just barely under.

 

We know she scored plenty high on the SOL.

 

So I have a call in to the school to talk to the math counselor re placement.

 

There's no rush, in our eyes, and dd is a little nervous about taking algebra.

 

So we were just going to keep her in 7th grade Honors math.

 

BUT--she's already had it. She's already made an "advanced pass" score on the SOL.

 

WWYD?

 

I would ask myself 2 questions:

 

1-how strong of a math student is she

2-how much does she enjoy math

 

If the answers are very strong and really enjoys, I would move forward w/promotion. If the answers are borderline, I would be more hesitant.

 

Our 8th grader is a very strong math student having taken her first alg course in 6th grade. She followed that w/Foersters and AoPS alg 1last yr. She is taking geo now. She has no trouble w/math.

 

However, she doesn't enjoy math. She will keep on taking math beyond cal simply b/c. But, unlike her brothers who got a thrill out of higher math, she is just going to tolerate it. I can't imagine this situation for a student that might be borderline at the higher levels.

 

FWIW, I disagree w/the contention that to be competitive for college admissions that 7th grade alg should even be a priority. It is a low percentage of students who take AP cal BC. High schools do not have regular class offerings of multivariable calculus, linear alg, or diffEQ in high school. That is the "standard" progression after cal 1 and 2 (the equivalent of AP cal BC).

 

This site will show how many students in your state take AP tests, the score distributions, and how many students in the different grades take the tests.

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/exgrd_sum/2011.html

 

THis link is the global distribution for just the AP cal exams: (compared to the number of high schoolers there are in the country (close to 17 million) the # is very low)

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/2011_Calculus_AB_Score_Dist.pdf

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/2011_Calculus_BC_Score_Dist.pdf

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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I think 7th grade is quite early for algebra, unless the student is just clamoring for it. I also think it's quite early to start making decisions based on getting into competitive colleges. Algebra in 8th gets you to calculus in 12th, and really, how much more can we cram into high school? What class will she NOT be taking that will make a college go, eh, this kid really screwed up in 7th grade, next!

 

If a student is applying to a selective college taking AP Calculus in 12th while the other applicants took AP Calculus in 11th and are now in Post-AP Math in 12th, then he/she will be at a disadvantage. It's hard enough to get into a top college as it is (they're rejecting 90-95% of all applicants), that I wouldn't deliberately wait until 8th grade for Algebra 1 unless the child clearly needed to. Yes, it's possible to double up on math with both Geometry and Algebra 2 in 9th to get back on the honors track. But that means the student will have a very full schedule that year.

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My experience is otherwise.

 

I'd qualify that statement to "many high schools do not have..." as my high school search for my child in my state showed that the high schools near tech businesses have math thru linear algebra on campus. Sometimes this is independent study, sometime a class, depending on the number of prepared students...but the faculty does have the expertise. The next level of high school has distance learning or an agreement with a nearby college to offer Calc I, II, III and partials or L.Alg. Very few students who are not 'in the know' realize this. I would not use the AP stats...many schools don't bother to go this route, preferring to go with dual enrollment instead as AP is a magnet for anti-elitists. To be competitive for selective colleges in a tech major, yes I would plan on Calc as a junior at a min. And that is going to be in a section with students who did one rigorous Alg course in one year, usually 7th or earlier, although some transfers will have doubled up and taken Alg I and Geo in 8th or 9th.

 

I'm not saying that there aren't kids who are taking classes beyond cal 2 in high school, but it is not the norm for there to be classrooms full of students taking those types of math classes. If 7th grade is the norm for alg, then 12th grade would be the normal grade level for multivariable cal. That is simply just not high school reality. It is only a small % of top students that are taking that level of math in high school

 

I bolded part of your paragraph b/c cal prior to their jr yr is even a smaller population of students. To suggest that taking cal in 11th at the latest is not an accurate representation of most qualified college-bound students. Even MIT accepts students w/cal in 12th grade. (even homeschooled ones: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showpost.php?p=1587500&postcount=10 )

 

Here is a link to MIT's page that addresses math and incoming students. I can't get the paragraph to copy, but it addresses specifically students that have taken cal BC being able to enroll in multivariable cal. It is far more the norm for AP cal exams to be taken in 12th.http://web.mit.edu/catalog/overv.chap3-gir.html

 

I know that finding courses for my 11th grader to take this yr and next means finding universities that will allow him to enroll (2 reasons). 1- our two local CC systems do not attract high achieving students and any classes they offer will not be on par w/his abilities and 2-they don't even offer high enough level math after his first semester of his jr yr (the highest level offered is multivariable cal)

 

At our local state university (which is a good university w/an engineering school and a medical school), multivariable cal is a 300 level math course. At most universities, it is a 200 level course. Cal 1 and 2 are 100 level courses. (not remedial level)

 

I'm definitely NOT suggesting that students shouldn't take alg in 7th. Goodness. My own kids have (or even 2 yrs earlier in 5th!) But, making the decision to take alg in 7th b/c of the idea taking math beyond calculus is the only way to gain admittance into college is simply not an accurate assessment.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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I would base the decision solely on her readiness for algebra and on her interest in pursuing algebra now. If she is ready, go for it - she can always repeat if it was too early. If she is not ready, don't push it.

 

I would ask the school what the plans are for the math sequence for students who do take algebra 1 in 7th and calculus in 11th. Does the school offer math beyond calc? What are her options for 12th grade math if the school does not? But I would not make my decision based on what may or may not happen in 12th grade!

 

I strongly disagree with the notion that, in order to enter a good university, students must have taken math beyond calculus. It is even possible for students to be accepted as STEM majors into a good university without having had any calculus in high school. And, for students who did take calc in high school, many are advised to retake calculus at the university, because it is taught more abstract and more in depth.

 

your decision about algebra in 7th grade should be based on your DD's CURRENT situation, not on a future in 5+ years.

Edited by regentrude
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I'm not saying that there aren't kids who are taking classes beyond cal 2 in high school, but it is not the norm for there to be classrooms full of students taking those types of math classes. If 7th grade is the norm for alg, then 12th grade would be the normal grade level for multivariable cal. That is simply just not high school reality. It is only a small % of top students that are taking that level of math in high school.

 

Of course the norm isn't Algebra 1 in 7th. I was specifically referring to the honors track. In my district, about 70% of kids take Algebra 1 prior to 9th, and about 20% take geometry prior to 9th. But the kids who are targeting selective colleges and therefore will be the competition are in that top 20%.

 

It's not just a California thing, either. I attended public school in Massachusetts, and my alma mater shifted forward the honors Algebra 1 from 8th to 7th a few years back (not sure exactly when but it was after my youngest brother graduated in '03).

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WHICH schools are not taking kids who didn't have AP Calc before 12th grade?!?

 

I live in the area of a big engineering/tech city... people often joke about "it's not rocket science, but even if it were, most of the people in the room are rocket scientists"... everyone and their brother is some type of engineer/computer programmer/etc. (and actual rocket scientists, since NASA does a lot here). The high schools here don't offer anything past AP BC Calc in 12th. They appear to have an honors track of Algebra 1 in 8th, still putting the kids at Calc in 12th. Kids here get into the big name schools like MIT. I remember when I was a kid, 3 of my classmates got into MIT, and 1 of them was taking Calc in 12th with me, and the other 2 had done the "super honors track" which was kind of secretive and very rarely done, so they were doing Calc 3 and Diff. Eq. at the local university in 12th, but that is still NOT the norm here. MIT took all 3, not just the 2 in the super duper honors track. :lol:

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I remember when I was a kid, 3 of my classmates got into MIT, and 1 of them was taking Calc in 12th with me, and the other 2 had done the "super honors track" which was kind of secretive and very rarely done, so they were doing Calc 3 and Diff. Eq. at the local university in 12th, but that is still NOT the norm here. MIT took all 3, not just the 2 in the super duper honors track. :lol:

 

It's a fairly recent phenomenon. I got into Stanford having taken Algebra 1 in 8th and "AP Equivalent" Calculus in 12th. One of my youngest brother's best friends got into Stanford doing the same, though the calc class had been formally AP-approved by that point. But some time after the 2002-2003 school year, everything got shifted forward and the honors kids started taking Post-AP Math in 12th.

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I heard a ER physician speak at a homeschool conference many years back. I cannot remember the details, but he said something about waiting until your dc has hit puberty before starting Algebra! I guess it has something to do with the ability to do abstract thinking and what happens in the brain during puberty. I found it interesting because I did not 'get' Algebra in 8th grade but got straight A's in 9th and beyond in Algebra... AFTER I had gone through puberty. Interesting to think about, anyway!

 

Brenda

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She pubed out last year. Just fwiw. :D

 

 

I called the school today.

 

What a convoluted mess.

 

As best I can understand, here's the scoop:

 

6th grade honors math (which she took) is really 7th grade "regular" math, the math a "regular" 7th grader would take. She passed that and passed the test with a very good "advanced proficiency" score.

 

7th grade honors math is regular 8th grade math. They don't call it prealgebra, but afterwards, kids would go into algebra.

 

Some kids take 6th grade honors and in some mysterious way (since it isn't technically prealg) have the expertise after to take Alg 1.

 

Seems to me, then, that 6th grade honors and 7th grade honors and 8th grade regular are basically the same course, since all can, technically, lead to Alg 1.

 

Someone tell me--how the he(( does that work?

 

All I can think of is, OH GREAT. HERE WE GO WITH THE PUBLIC SCHOOL bull.

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I heard a ER physician speak at a homeschool conference many years back. I cannot remember the details, but he said something about waiting until your dc has hit puberty before starting Algebra! I guess it has something to do with the ability to do abstract thinking and what happens in the brain during puberty.

 

Then girls should be taking algebra a few years ahead of boys and the accelerated track should be filled with girls. But I'm not seeing it.

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<snip>

6th grade honors math (which she took) is really 7th grade "regular" math, the math a "regular" 7th grader would take. She passed that and passed the test with a very good "advanced proficiency" score.

 

7th grade honors math is regular 8th grade math. They don't call it prealgebra, but afterwards, kids would go into algebra.

 

Some kids take 6th grade honors and in some mysterious way (since it isn't technically prealg) have the expertise after to take Alg 1.

 

Seems to me, then, that 6th grade honors and 7th grade honors and 8th grade regular are basically the same course, since all can, technically, lead to Alg 1.

Someone tell me--how the he(( does that work?

 

All I can think of is, OH GREAT. HERE WE GO WITH THE PUBLIC SCHOOL bull.

 

That is not necessarily correct. There is a LOT of math in the world, :D, and lots of ways to cover it. The classes could all be quite different, yet students will be ready for algebra at various times.

 

What you "need" for algebra is solid arithmetic and developmental readiness. Most kids who have mastered arithmetic do not take algebra in 5th, 6th, or 7th because they are not developmentally ready for it. Hence, approaching different topics in different ways, and pre-algebra (the student who is ready doesn't need "pre" algebra, they just get it all at once, instead of a slow introduction).

 

Opinions will differ, but I personally would never make a decision about 7th grade math based on a fear of not getting into a selective college. I wouldn't do it if it were necessary, and I don't think it's necessary.

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Then girls should be taking algebra a few years ahead of boys and the accelerated track should be filled with girls. But I'm not seeing it.

 

Good point. I am not seeing this happening either.

I wonder how much of the so called "developmental readiness for algebra" is a function of good or bad arithmetic teaching in the preceding years. And I also wonder why children in other countries seem to hit this "developmental readiness" for algebra much earlier than American kids, if one looks at their math curricula.

Edited by regentrude
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She pubed out last year. Just fwiw. :D

 

 

I called the school today.

 

What a convoluted mess.

 

As best I can understand, here's the scoop:

 

6th grade honors math (which she took) is really 7th grade "regular" math, the math a "regular" 7th grader would take. She passed that and passed the test with a very good "advanced proficiency" score.

 

7th grade honors math is regular 8th grade math. They don't call it prealgebra, but afterwards, kids would go into algebra.

 

Some kids take 6th grade honors and in some mysterious way (since it isn't technically prealg) have the expertise after to take Alg 1.

 

Seems to me, then, that 6th grade honors and 7th grade honors and 8th grade regular are basically the same course, since all can, technically, lead to Alg 1.

 

Someone tell me--how the he(( does that work?

 

All I can think of is, OH GREAT. HERE WE GO WITH THE PUBLIC SCHOOL bull.

 

I don't know the reasoning of your school district, but I do know that our local district does not want to place students in algebra in 7th grade unless they're reasonably sure that they will excel in the class. So the bar is raised to try to ensure that. So, for example, for 7th grade algebra they're looking for 90th percentile+ on the IAAT, whereas for an 8th grader, they are looking for the 70th percentile. Same with the MAP. For 7th grade algebra they want to see a RIT score of 245 or higher, but for 8th grade algebra a score of 235 is fine.

 

I agree with this thinking. And, in fact, I'm currently dealing with math placement with my 10yo (entering 6th grade in the fall). If we were to continue to homeschool, then there would be no question of him starting algebra in the fall, but in a classroom situation things are different. The pace is the pace of the class and if he gets stuck, there's no going sideways for a while. I want math to be challenging but not so challenging that it is impossible for him to excel in the class. So the point is that accelerated math students should also be getting As. (OP: I'm not implying that your child wouldn't get an A, I'm just trying to explain the thought process involved in these types of placement decisions.)

Edited by EKS
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I still don't really understand it. How much math is there, that prepares one to take Algebra? I know, you can go deep in different areas, but that's not really what this class seems to be--it's just regular 8th grade math, what you would take if you were to go on to Alg in 9th grade. Isn't that PREALGEBRA? :confused: If she took 7th grade math last year (she did), how did they expect her to score high enough on the IAAT and SOL if she hadn't had prealgebra already? What will be the difference between what she took and what she will take? I can see there being different "paths to prepare for algebra, but it's still the same basic set of skills, isn't it? :confused:

 

One thing I did ask was what is the population of the class--there are 25 7th graders in Honors 7th (those, apparently, that missed the cut off but took 7th grade math last year in 6th grade, like dd). In Algebra, she'd be with 8th graders. I don't really want that.

 

All this is moot, I guess--we are having her go to Honors 7th (which, as I said, is really just 8th grade math). I think she'll be fine. If it's truly review, then so be it. If it gives her a year to solidify concepts, fine.

 

I have no anxiety about high school math--and I'm not sure how folks got the idea that I was looking ahead and wondering about further down the path--I'm not the least bit looking ahead. All about the "now."

:D

 

Anyway, thanks for the input.

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It's a fairly recent phenomenon. I got into Stanford having taken Algebra 1 in 8th and "AP Equivalent" Calculus in 12th. One of my youngest brother's best friends got into Stanford doing the same, though the calc class had been formally AP-approved by that point. But some time after the 2002-2003 school year, everything got shifted forward and the honors kids started taking Post-AP Math in 12th.

 

So it's JUST Stanford? I am looking for specific schools, since you keep mentioning "top schools" and not saying which ones. If it's just Stanford, that doesn't affect us. I highly doubt my kids would want to go there. :tongue_smilie: There are plenty of top schools on the other side of the country that appear to still take kids that took Calc in 12th grade, like MIT mentioned by 8FillTheHeart. (I doubt my kids will go there either... they'll probably go to a good state school, as most of the successful engineers around here have done)

 

And where does Stanford say they don't take kids that had Calc in 12th? Here is what their site says:

 

"Mathematics: four years, with significant emphasis on fundamental mathematical skills (algebra; trigonometry; plane, solid, and analytic geometry)."

 

That doesn't mention Calc at all. :confused: Did you talk to the admissions department? Or did you just go by someone who didn't get in (that could have been due to other factors, not their math courses)?

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So it's JUST Stanford? I am looking for specific schools, since you keep mentioning "top schools" and not saying which ones. If it's just Stanford, that doesn't affect us. I highly doubt my kids would want to go there. :tongue_smilie: There are plenty of top schools on the other side of the country that appear to still take kids that took Calc in 12th grade, like MIT mentioned by 8FillTheHeart. (I doubt my kids will go there either... they'll probably go to a good state school, as most of the successful engineers around here have done)

 

And where does Stanford say they don't take kids that had Calc in 12th? Here is what their site says:

 

"Mathematics: four years, with significant emphasis on fundamental mathematical skills (algebra; trigonometry; plane, solid, and analytic geometry)."

 

That doesn't mention Calc at all. :confused: Did you talk to the admissions department? Or did you just go by someone who didn't get in (that could have been due to other factors, not their math courses)?

 

No, I'm not talking about just Stanford- that just happens to be the school I'm most familiar with because it's my alma mater.

 

But Stanford (and other top tier universities) most definitely wants to see applicants take the most academically rigorous track offered by their high school. From their admissions website:

 

"We expect applicants to pursue a reasonably challenging curriculum, choosing courses from among the most demanding courses available at your school"

 

Given that the honors track at many high schools these days has Algebra 1 in 7th, AP Calculus in 11th, and Post-AP Math in 12th, an applicant who had the opportunity to enroll in this sequence but didn't is going to not look as strong as the competition.

 

It's one thing for a student to be taking Algebra 1 in 8th through AP Calculus in 12th because that's the highest track offered at his/her school. That doesn't reflect negatively on the student's ability. But if the top 20% or whatever at the school ARE taking Algebra 1 in 7th, it definitely reflects negatively on the student to not be among them.

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No, I'm not talking about just Stanford- that just happens to be the school I'm most familiar with because it's my alma mater.

 

But Stanford (and other top tier universities) most definitely wants to see applicants take the most academically rigorous track offered by their high school. From their admissions website:

 

 

 

Given that the honors track at many high schools these days has Algebra 1 in 7th, AP Calculus in 11th, and Post-AP Math in 12th, an applicant who had the opportunity to enroll in this sequence but didn't is going to not look as strong as the competition.

 

It's one thing for a student to be taking Algebra 1 in 8th through AP Calculus in 12th because that's the highest track offered at his/her school. That doesn't reflect negatively on the student's ability. But if the top 20% or whatever at the school ARE taking Algebra 1 in 7th, it definitely reflects negatively on the student to not be among them.

 

This is still not completely accurate. I inquired here since alg in 7th is an option. Apparently many students that take alg in 7th are taking AP cal AB in 11th and BC in 12th. Since the AB is NOT a pre-req for the BC, they are essentially spreading cal over 2 yrs.

 

Another thing to consider is that enrollment in AP cal (AB or BC) is only part of the picture. Here are the stats (rounded) from 2011:

 

245,500 took the AB exam

50,000 scored 5

83,000 scored 1

avg score 2.8

 

80,000 took BC exam

37,000 scored 5

11,000 scored 1

avg score 3.76

 

Since AP classes and exams are self-selecting in the first place, that is a large % supposedly top students not making top scores.

 

There is a big picture beyond labels and even more importantly, there are real people, children, not adults, behind the numbers and stats. Focusing on that real person in front of you and their real abilities and needs should be the only deciding factor.

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There is a big picture beyond labels and even more importantly, there are real people, children, not adults, behind the numbers and stats. Focusing on that real person in front of you and their real abilities and needs should be the only deciding factor.

 

:iagree: Also, here is the full paragraph from Stanford regarding course selection:

 

"Choosing Courses

We expect applicants to pursue a reasonably challenging curriculum, choosing courses from among the most demanding courses available at your school. We ask you to exercise good judgment here, and to consult with your counselor, teacher and parents as you construct a curriculum that is right for you. Our hope is that your curriculum will inspire you to develop your intellectual passions, not suffer from unnecessary stress. The students who thrive at Stanford are those who are genuinely excited about learning, not necessarily those who take every single AP, Honors or Accelerated class just because it has that name."

 

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/uga/basics/selection/prepare.html

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Also, here is the full paragraph from Stanford regarding course selection:

 

"Choosing Courses

We expect applicants to pursue a reasonably challenging curriculum, choosing courses from among the most demanding courses available at your school. We ask you to exercise good judgment here, and to consult with your counselor, teacher and parents as you construct a curriculum that is right for you. Our hope is that your curriculum will inspire you to develop your intellectual passions, not suffer from unnecessary stress. The students who thrive at Stanford are those who are genuinely excited about learning, not necessarily those who take every single AP, Honors or Accelerated class just because it has that name."

 

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/uga/basics/selection/prepare.html

 

I'm calling B.S. on that claim. Admissions to Stanford and other top schools have become insanely competitive in recent years. They are rejecting 94% of applicants, and when the competition now routinely has top grades in 10 AP's on their transcript, a student who doesn't is going to be at a major disadvantage unless they are in a special admissions pool (varsity athlete, first-generation to attend college, certain racial/ethnic groups, etc.) My kids are going to be compared against other white, upper-middle-class, suburban kids, and I need to make sure their program at least matches (if not exceeds) the norm.

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But Stanford (and other top tier universities) most definitely wants to see applicants take the most academically rigorous track offered by their high school.

 

A large percentage of the adults in Williamson County, TN hold degrees. Williamson County public schools are some of the best schools in the state of TN. (I realize that isn't saying much based on TN's standing nationally, but it is something.) The highest level math offered in Williamson County is AP Calc BC.

I know a family whose dd attends the nationally ranked public magnet school Hume Fogg in Nashville. They offer:

Core and Elective Courses

Honors Algebra 1

Honors Geometry

Honors Algebra 2

Honors Precalculus

Discrete Mathematics

AP Statistics

AP Calculus AB

AP Calculus BC

Advanced Calculus

The dd of the family I know had taken everything available at Hume Fogg, but TN students are now required to take 4 years of math in high school. The school is paying for their dd to take college math classes.

Certainly, this child had the ability and therefore the need for a higher level math class. However, even at the nationally ranked magnet school this is extremely unusual or they would offer more college level maths on campus.

I am a firm believer in opening and keeping open as many doors as possible, but I am also a firm believer in meeting a child at their level of ability. The duh comment here is that most students will not be best served by attending top tier universities. Perhaps the comment that is less obvious is that even some students who are more than able by educational level or ability may have different goals and choose to apply elsewhere.

The clincher is that, although top tier universities seem to be your end goal, many parents even with children whose abilities would indicate that top tier schools could be an option do not see these institutions as the ultimate dream. My goal is not for my son to go to the highest ranked university where he can gain admission. There are just too many other factors involved for this to be my main goal for my child.

For example, shooting sports is the passion of the young lady I mentioned. An institution that doesn't excel in this area and have a fantastic paintball team isn't on her radar. Her mother seemed more than fine with this choice.

It is absolutely wonderful that you expect your child to attend a top ranked university, but keep in mind that this isn't the place from which most families operate. ;)

 

I have no anxiety about high school math--and I'm not sure how folks got the idea that I was looking ahead and wondering about further down the path--I'm not the least bit looking ahead. All about the "now."

This is.

 

Mandy

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<snip>All this is moot, I guess--we are having her go to Honors 7th (which, as I said, is really just 8th grade math). I think she'll be fine. If it's truly review, then so be it. If it gives her a year to solidify concepts, fine.

 

I have no anxiety about high school math--and I'm not sure how folks got the idea that I was looking ahead and wondering about further down the path--I'm not the least bit looking ahead. All about the "now."

:D

 

Anyway, thanks for the input.

 

I don't think people got that idea - I know that my "don't think too far ahead" posts were in response to posts that suggested you needed to do so, not in respone to what YOU posted.

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I'm calling B.S. on that claim. Admissions to Stanford and other top schools have become insanely competitive in recent years. They are rejecting 94% of applicants, and when the competition now routinely has top grades in 10 AP's on their transcript, a student who doesn't is going to be at a major disadvantage unless they are in a special admissions pool (varsity athlete, first-generation to attend college, certain racial/ethnic groups, etc.) My kids are going to be compared against other white, upper-middle-class, suburban kids, and I need to make sure their program at least matches (if not exceeds) the norm.

 

I can tell you what we have learned and are learning actually going through the process. A transcript full of APs is just going to be nothing more than a carbon copy of stacks of other transcripts sitting on their table. From what we have been told that is not the way to acceptance..

 

Everything that we have learned stresses the individual. How has your student developed himself/herself? Do they have a passionate interest? Have they stretched themself? (and this doesn't have to mean a mile long list of APs. It can be volunteering, working while going to school, starting an organization, etc)

 

We have found that they are actually more interested in solid, well-rounded individuals that will bring something to the student body vs. simply another "locked in their room doing nothing but academics" student.

 

FWIW, I have a student that is advanced and will have 2 yrs post AP university math. And you know what, I'm not sure where he will be accepted and where we will be able to afford for him to attend. (Stanford didn't even make his list b/c of the 1/4 system; he wants full semesters.) We are hoping for the best, but won't be crushed if he has to go somewhere b/c of cost.

 

We know that he is a strong applicant (not to mention a fabulous kid). We don't live our daily lives even thinking in terms of "how is this going to look on his college application." All of his achievements are simply **who** he is. (This yr his literature study is one built around CS Lewis. If all I cared about was admissions somewhere, I wouldn't have done something so out of the norm.;))

 

We also know that great careers come out of non-top schools. Our oldest ds works for a great corp and at 23 he is quite successful. He attended a small public university and graduated near the top of his class and w/no debt.

 

Goodness, in VA students can gain guaranteed admission into UVA, VA Tech, William and Mary, etc via the 2 yr programs at the CCs. That means no APs, no honors classes, etc. Simply earning something like a 3.25 GPA over the 2 yrs in the required CC courses.

 

There are MANY routes to quality higher ed (and I personally don't believe that the CC system is one of them, but obviously some really good unis disagree w/me:tongue_smilie:).

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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Actually, at the moment my DD wants to go into a field that she would be better off attending the local Cal State for than Stanford (speech & language pathology). Cal State has a Communicative Disorders major that meets the pre-SLP requirements and Stanford doesn't. There are direct-entry M.S. in SLP programs, but those are 4 years rather than 2. Also, while SLP's make a respectable salary, it's not a super-high one. From a financial investment standpoint attending CSU undergrad makes a lot more sense than Stanford for a future SLP.

 

However, I don't want to prematurely close any doors. That means I need to do an Ivy prep curriculum even if she decides to apply to CSU or wherever. Applicants don't get rejected for having done too rigorous a curriculum (assuming decent grades in those courses), but not having enough rigor does lead to rejections.

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Ok, again, as a person living in VA (under the same SOLs), here is my experience.

 

my daughter tested in to the 2nd level math in 5th grade, not the 3rd (regular, advanced, super-advanced?) The super-advanced level was bused out of the school for math. In 8th grade, she was taking algebra, and a boy a year behind her from our neighborhood was in that class with her, because he'd been in the super-advanced track since 5th grade.

 

Of course, she decided to go to community college for graphic art and take a regular level diploma, so after 10th grade she didnt take any more math - until she changed majors.

 

My son was in pre-algebra 1 in 7th grade, in special ed / collaborative, and would have taken pre-algebra 2 if he'd continued. His teacher was impressed and suggested I move him straight to algebra. But i discovered he really didnt know fractions at all . . .

 

Pre-algebra is mostly a review of arithmetic before going in to algebra. LOF series didnt have anything between fractions/decimals and algebra at first, and then he added two books - but many kids dont really need any review.

 

So yes, regular middle school math is doing the same job as pre-algebra.

 

and unrelated, when I went to high school in PA in the 80s, i was in the gifted program. Our math in the gifted program was geometry / algebra 2 / precalc (trig and stuff) / calc. Then i went on to PSU as an engineering major to take 4 more semesters of calc . . . oh joy.

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Oh, and one more thing - my daughter applied to (but did not get in to) the math and science specialty program hosted in our local high school. One thing we heard during the presentation about the program was that they had made higher level math and science classes available for other kids in the high school who were not in the program - implying that most of the high schools did not offer math past calculus. this was only about 5 years ago

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Actually, at the moment my DD wants to go into a field that she would be better off attending the local Cal State for than Stanford (speech & language pathology). Cal State has a Communicative Disorders major that meets the pre-SLP requirements and Stanford doesn't. There are direct-entry M.S. in SLP programs, but those are 4 years rather than 2. Also, while SLP's make a respectable salary, it's not a super-high one. From a financial investment standpoint attending CSU undergrad makes a lot more sense than Stanford for a future SLP.

 

However, I don't want to prematurely close any doors. That means I need to do an Ivy prep curriculum even if she decides to apply to CSU or wherever. Applicants don't get rejected for having done too rigorous a curriculum (assuming decent grades in those courses), but not having enough rigor does lead to rejections.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that students should not have academic rigor. At least that is not what I am saying. The question is whether or not students are expected to take courses **beyond** AP level as meeting the minimum for academic rigor.

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Of course the norm isn't Algebra 1 in 7th. I was specifically referring to the honors track. In my district, about 70% of kids take Algebra 1 prior to 9th, and about 20% take geometry prior to 9th. But the kids who are targeting selective colleges and therefore will be the competition are in that top 20%.

 

It's not just a California thing, either. I attended public school in Massachusetts, and my alma mater shifted forward the honors Algebra 1 from 8th to 7th a few years back (not sure exactly when but it was after my youngest brother graduated in '03).

 

You need to ask yourself what the real goals of education are, and if getting your daughter into algebra in 7th is matching those goals. Does she really love math, and has she really mastered the previous material solidly, if you are concerned that she is on the bubble on the entrance test? College preparation is about far more than competing with the Joneses.

 

Even Harvard and other Ivies are reporting that 30% and more of kids entering have to take remedial math courses-- these are presumably kids who arrived with cadillac transcripts and high test scores.

 

My husband is a math professor at a university that rates in the top 10 in math grad schools in the nation-- and it is not an ivy-- and the state of the incoming undergrads is sad, particularly those whose transcripts boast advanced calculus and honors courses. The trend, sad to say, is that kids are being pushed ahead regardless of whether they are truly ready for it or not, are truly grasping the material or not, and truly like math or not yet. I have had to tutor many of these poor kids who have no clue which end of the pencil to even hold, despite a 5 or 4 on the AP calc test and solid A's in honors or AP calculus. Many of the students who are performing solidly and doing well in their classes stayed back and really, really learned math at their own pace until they were rock solid on what they were learning and then were ready to learn more. I have chatted up kids at the department picnics, and some of the students who are happiest in their calc math classes are the ones who went through trig in high school, not calc or more, because they didn't rush through.

 

There are exceptions. And math can be taught better than it is. I think when math is taught well, many kids can easily handle algebra by 7th grade or even 6th. But it mostly is not taught well in our current system. So most kids who are ready to be that accelerated are truly exceptions, and not the majority in the class. I don't know your daughter; only you do. Have you asked your daughter's opinion, and asked her what she really wants to do in math?

 

I know what the professors are seeing in their introductory classes, even among the kids who test into calc when they get to the university. What is happening in school classrooms is not matching what parents and teachers think is happening. Slowing down is often a better route for most kids. Schools will not tell you this, because they get higher rankings on state listings and US News for sheer numbers of kids taking advanced classes and AP tests, regardless of how they do after they graduate. It just make them look good to fill those seats in the upper classes. The students, not their educations, are the product.

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Couple of things. First it was only one test. What does last year's teacher recommend? Every school and school system is different.

 

As far as admissions. I talked with non-ivy level honors admissions person a couple weeks ago. Very few AP courses are as rigorous as a college level calculus class. Every school and teacher have a different class. If a kid needs it for a major even if they score a 5 it is highly recommended to repeat the calculus course. This is especially true at the ivy league level. Your local CC calculus is not an MIT calculus class.

 

Also a lot of high schools including private have agreements with the local community colleges for calculus and advanced math. It doesn't appear in the high school course listing, it is just a known amongst the math teachers, counselors, and parents of kids in those programs. Also remember a lot of kids will take an AP course and never take the exam.

 

Is it too early to make these decisions? Yes and no IMO. Yes, you want to make sure you are not closing doors on possibilities. You have no idea the wants and dreams of a kid in a few years. You also do not want to push a kid past their abilities and have them struggle unnecessarily. I would make sure your child is ready to flourish in the honors classes. Universities are looking for grades and strength of classes. They are also looking for unique kids that stand out from the group. If you have a kid who is focused on a passion, that is more important than if they took AP Calc BC in 11th grade. So if your student wants to do an extra-curricular thing and wait until next year to start algebra that is fine.

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You need to ask yourself what the real goals of education are, and if getting your daughter into algebra in 7th is matching those goals. Does she really love math, and has she really mastered the previous material solidly, if you are concerned that she is on the bubble on the entrance test? College preparation is about far more than competing with the Joneses....There are exceptions. And math can be taught better than it is. I think when math is taught well, many kids can easily handle algebra by 7th grade or even 6th. But it mostly is not taught well in our current system. So most kids who are ready to be that accelerated are truly exceptions, and not the majority in the class. I don't know your daughter; only you do. Have you asked your daughter's opinion, and asked her what she really wants to do in math?

 

She claims that she "hates" math but then "for fun" she reads Life of Fred and Danica McKellar's series and she's currently in the middle of Flatterland by Ian Stewart. So I take her professed hatred of math with a huge grain of salt ;) She doesn't like having to actually work at a subject to master it (oh, the horrors :rolleyes:) unlike language-based subjects that come more naturally to her.

 

She's doing a combo of Singapore Discovering Math 1 and Horizons Pre-Algebra now. I haven't decided yet whether to continue straight on to DM2/Horizons Algebra 1 when she finishes (which would most likely be 2nd semester of 6th) or to finish out that year working through some middle school problem-solving books like MOEMS prep ones. AOPS wouldn't be a good "fit" for her because she prefers a more traditional instruction style to a "discovery" approach.

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