What is the argument that Catholics are not Christians?

[GothicGyrl]

Except I had always heard that "X" was the symbol for Christ or something like that. Which makes sense if she is posting it as a respect thing.

[j.griff]

I hadn't heard that, and that does make sense if it's a respect thing. Interesting.

(thinking to myself here- is the X representing the Cross, or Christ on the Cross, does everyone else here know this except for me, LOL?????)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I hadn't heard that, and that does make sense if it's a respect thing. Interesting.

(thinking to myself here- is the X representing the Cross, or Christ on the Cross, does everyone else here know this except for me, LOL?????)

 

From wiki:

 

In ancient Christian art, χ and χρ are abbreviations for Christ's name.[4] In many manuscripts of the New Testament and icons, X is an abbreviation for Christos, as is XC (the first and last letters in Greek, using the lunate sigma); compare IC for Jesus in Greek. The Oxford English Dictionary documents the use of this abbreviation back to 1551, 50 years before the first English colonists arrived in North America and 60 years before the King James Version of the Bible was completed. At the same time, Xian and Xianity were in frequent use as abbreviations of "Christian" and "Christianity"; and nowadays still are sometimes so used, but much less than "Xmas". The proper names containing the name "Christ" other than aforementioned are rarely abbreviated in this way (e.g. Hayden Xensen for the actor name "Hayden Christensen"). This apparent usage of "X" to spell the syllable "kris" (rather than the sounds "ks") has extended to "xtal" for "crystal", and on florists' signs "xant" for "chrysanthemum"[5] (though these words are not etymologically related to "Christ"; "crystal" comes from a Greek word meaning "ice"; "chrysanthemum" comes from Greek words meaning "golden flower"; "Christ" comes from a Greek word meaning "anointed").

[LG Gone Wild]

GothicGyrl and others,

 

RC and O do not *worship* them. We reverence them, much like P's reference Luther, Billy Graham and many other P leaders both alive and dead. Do P's worship Luther or Graham or others in their Faith? Probably not but you sure reverence them.

 

Consider this....

 

If you believe in live everlasting, then the saints of God who have gone before us are still part of the church. They continue to be our brothers and sisters in Christ, do they not? We ask church friends to pray and intercede for us. How is that different from asking those who have gone before us to pray and intercede for us? Are they not ALL "in Christ", both those on earth and those who have gone on? Can they not ALL pray for us?

 

Regarding "works"---- RC and O both believe that works and faith go hand in hand. Leaving either one out can only offer imbalance.

 

Orth Christians receive doctrine from several places--- Revelation, Tradition, Bible, Liturgy, Councils, Fathers, Saints, Canons and Church Art. The reason why "not Bible only" is because most of these doctrinal sources were around in the Early Church long before the N.T. Bible was even in written format. You can read more about O doctrine here: http://www.oca.org/OCIndex-TOC.asp?SID=2&book=Doctrine

 

.:D

 

I hadn't quite thought if it that way.

[j.griff]

aahhhhhh, thanks for saving me the search, :D

[PariSarah]

(thinking to myself here- is the X representing the Cross, or Christ on the Cross, does everyone else here know this except for me, LOL?????)

 

The first letter of Christ in Greek (Christos) is a chi, which looks like our letter X. So the X (Greek letter chi) was and is used as a symbol for Christ.

 

I just use it as shorthand. I hadn't heard of anyone using it out of respect in the way Jews refrain from using the divine name out of respect.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

aahhhhhh, thanks for saving me the search, :D

 

And a tiny bit more:

 

The word "Christ" and its compounds, including "Christmas", have been abbreviated for at least the past 1,000 years, long before the modern "Xmas" was commonly used. "Christ" was often written as "XP" or "Xt"; there are references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as far back as 1021 AD. This X and P arose as the uppercase forms of the Greek letters χ and ρ), used in ancient abbreviations for Χριστος (Greek for "Christ"), and are still widely seen in many Eastern Orthodox icons depicting Jesus Christ. The labarum, an amalgamation of the two Greek letters rendered as ☧, is a symbol often used to represent Christ in Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian Churches.[2]

[PariSarah]

Pammy with the an-sa!

 

Oh yeah!

[GothicGyrl]

GothicGyrl and others,

 

For all you guys who have posted inaccurate statements about Roman Catholicism.... it would be easily cleared up if a RC member would post a reliable link that explains their doctrinal beliefs. I can tell you now, though, that most of the statements made here were not accurate.

 

Firstly, I really wish people would read the WHOLE thread before passing condemnation on someone. WE did not say those things, we said we HEARD those things said to US when we asked the questions. WE never said WE believed those things, only that we had heard those things from others who did believe it.

 

Secondly, I am a baptised and once attending Roman Catholic myself. I KNOW what was done in my church and how it was done and it was NOT reverance, it was worshipping.

 

Thirdly, read the link I posted on the bottom of page one-- Messages from Heave---and you will hear for yourself, FROM CATHOLICS and Catholic Priests, that say they "Worship" Mary and anything involving her.

 

In short, we are not making these things up or passing them on as lies. I've posted two links as proof--one of which comes straight from their mouths!

 

I also never said I ever believed in the whole "Catholics are not Christians" bit. I simply said this is what I've seen, heard, and been raised in.

[j.griff]

And I have learned something new today, :D thanks Pam (it amazes me the many different things we can learn here, due to the diversity of the folks that post here- that's just awesome!)

[PrairieAir]

I guess I just don't see the rules as coming from us, I look for what does God say? Since I do believe the Bible is from God, I take what it says for what is the truth.

 

What is a Christian? Acts 11 tells us where the term originated. In skimming the chapter, I don't see the explanation of the new word that was coined, but it was because the disciples of Christ spoke of having "Christ in".

 

So a Christian is someone who is saved and has "Christ in", correct? Let's take it back to what you said and I have quoted here. What does God say in His Word is required for salvation? (I don't know whether or not this is the Catholic belief, but I'm trying to take it from what I believe and what I gather your belief would be as well from what you've said.) As an answer I give you this:

Romans 10:9-13

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

It seems to me that the requirement for being saved and therefore a "Christian" is really quite simple. Now, different denominations (of which Catholic is one) have different beliefs. The reason for this is because man tends to make things more complicated for himself. That's what religion is all about, IMO. Religion is man trying to find his own salvation and entangling himself even more in the process when God has already provided the way. FWIW, I think we're all guilty of a little religious thinking now and then.;) I'm not picking on any one group's rituals or beliefs.

 

All of this extra stuff--the rites, rituals, practices of all our different denominations--does not affect salvation. All of that is in our walk with God. There are benefits to walking according to God's Word, but it is a separate matter from salvation. Regardless of how you practice your faith, if you are saved (see above verses), you are a Christian.

 

Let me ask another question of everyone. Who benefits from all the division among the different Christian sects? Who do we glorify when we squabble and fight over who has the right to call themselves a Christian? Could it be...Satan? (I hope you read that in the same Church Lady voice I typed it in;))

[LG Gone Wild]

(Please know that momof7 is my dear friend, and I know that Christ lives in her. Since I know these threads upset her, and she may not be back, I decided to ask you instead - but my question is sincerely an effort to remove my own ignorance.)

 

 

 

I've really learned quite a bit of insight from the posts, even the ones that got a bit dodgy. There is a lot of good stuff in this thread so she needn't feel enraged and that I am glad she posted.

[LG Gone Wild]

As someone raised Southern Baptist, I can assure you that we were NOT taught that all those religions were not Christians...sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

 

Angela

 

What do I know?

[8filltheheart]

This has been interesting...I think these discussions can always be a good thing.

 

I do believe it all comes down to a person's heart and only God knows that. I admit I have limited information on the Catholic faith and I also realize I just need to keep on learning as well as pray that God will show me the truth. When I see a picture of someone kissing the feet of a statue, well, it doesn't sit well with me. But perhaps not all Catholics believe that's ok, I can see that. This whole learning process will be a life long journey. After all, as long as we seek God and His righteousness, he'll take care of the rest, right?

 

Can someone answer a question for me.....do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? And do they pray to her?

 

I also saw a Google video called Messages from Heaven(you can google it, it's very easy to find, I'd add the link if I knew how to) about all of the Virgin Mary apparitions showing up all over the world. The Catholic Church has 'approved' many of these (I can't think of a better word) after their investigations. According to this video, these apparitions have said to build statues and shrines to her, that she is the co-redeemer with Christ and God. I'm TRULY not trying to start an argument, I'd just like to hear what Catholics think about this. I'll say again, I know there is a lot about the faith I don't know, and I'm willing to say that perhaps some of what I have learned maybe isn't true...time will tell as I continue to learn.

 

 

It is next to impossible to respond to these types of questions on a board b/c most people, me included, simply don't have the time to sit here and type out yrs worth of theology.

 

I will do my best to summarize Church teaching, but most of it is simply going to leave you with more questions because theology is a huge part of Catholicism. Scripture is taken as a whole. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old but must be understood in the context of Judaism.

 

Yes. We believe Mary was sinless. However, Mary's sinlessness is TOTALLY and completely different than the sinlessness of Christ. God chose Mary to be the mother of the Redeemer from the beginning of time. She was to become the Ark of the New Covenant. If you think in terms of the Ark of the Covenant that simply contained the 10 Commandments, any who were not worthy that touched the Ark died.

 

The reason man needs a redeemer is b/c God cannot be in the presence of sin. God preserved Mary from sin. He freed her from original sin in order to preserve the "Ark." Mary was "full of grace." Full.....filled by God, not of her own violiation.....and that "extra" grace from the hand of God provided her the ability to not succumb to sin. If only those worthy were able to touch the Ark.....does it not make some sense that God would preserve the human nature of the woman He chose as the mother of His only son?

 

Conversely, Christ is sinless b/c Christ is God. Period.

 

Praying to Mary. Belief in visions and Marian miracles.

 

Yes. I pray to Mary. I pray to all kinds of Saints. I ask friends to pray for me. Do I try to lead my little ones to Christ??? Absolutely. When people say to things like "to Christ through Mary" it means simply that His mother will always lead you to Him. If I do it for my own children......surely His mother (whom is our spiritual mother b/c she is supreme example of motherhood) will lead us to Him more than we in our sinful humanity possibly can. It never implies that Mary is in anyway responsible for our redemption other than through the simple act of her "Fiat." This means that her "according to thy will" allowed God's Word to take complete possession of her body and spirit, she "becomes womb and bride and mother of the incarnating God."

 

Praying to a saint or Mary does not mean that you are worshipping them. It means we know they are in heaven and are living in the presence of God. Since they are able to pray without ceasing and we are distracted by our daily lives.....we are simply asking them to pray for us. Unless you don't believe in the prayers of others....I simply can't understand how anyone can object to the prayers of saints.

 

Did people flock to the disciples b/c they were amazed by their healing powers? Weren't those powers given to them by God to be His instruments here on earth to guide people to Him and believe? Yes, there are approved miracles and visions. Whether people use them to stand in awe of God and the saint's miracles lead them closer to God or whether people are mislead and worship the individual instead......that is a matter of a person's own decisions. People tried to become "followers" of prophets and the disciples instead of God/Christ. They always told the people that they were not the ones, but only His instruments. The people had to make the decision and still do.

[Storm Bay]

What is a Christian? Acts 11 tells us where the term originated. In skimming the chapter, I don't see the explanation of the new word that was coined, but it was because the disciples of Christ spoke of having "Christ in".

All of this extra stuff--the rites, rituals, practices of all our different denominations--does not affect salvation. All of that is in our walk with God. There are benefits to walking according to God's Word, but it is a separate matter from salvation. Regardless of how you practice your faith, if you are saved (see above verses), you are a Christian.

 

Let me ask another question of everyone. Who benefits from all the division among the different Christian sects? Who do we glorify when we squabble and fight over who has the right to call themselves a Christian? Could it be...Satan? (I hope you read that in the same Church Lady voice I typed it in;))

 

I only quoted part, but this was well put.

[Anna]

GG,

 

I didn't think I was passing condemnation on anyone. My point in posting was only to help clarify and to ask the RC's here to post a link explaining their doctrine. That's all! My apologies if I made you feel condemned.

 

I don't remember adults in our RC church instructing us to "worship" anyone except Jesus Christ. Different churches, different teachings, I suppose. I know that in MY Orth church, we reverence Mary and the Saints, not worship them.

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

[LG Gone Wild]

a Catholic could create here or link would change the minds of some who will only hear Catholicism defined incorrectly by their own non-Catholic pastors. The ones who don't believe we are (or have the potential to be) Christian have hard hearts. Letting this thread go by without any more objection than that is really, really hard for me, but it's just not worth the effort. :(

 

This was a really great thread! And anyway, one was gracious enough to admit holes in her understanding of Catholicism.:)

[Laura K (NC)]

:o

[GothicGyrl]

Anna, no amount of reasonable argument

a Catholic could create here or link would change the minds of some who will only hear Catholicism defined incorrectly by their own non-Catholic pastors. The ones who don't believe we are (or have the potential to be) Christian have hard hearts. Letting this thread go by without any more objection than that is really, really hard for me, but it's just not worth the effort.

 

Forgetting that none of us have said "we do not believe Catholics are Christian"...

 

What part of that are you not getting? *I* NEVER SAID "catholics are not Christian".. I said simply that it was what I heard and here was the explanation of what I heard.

 

That is all. So please stop with the insinuation that some of us are bashing you, especially since I was one of the first ones to call a particular person on that bashing!!

 

Do I have a hard heart? YOU BET I DO.. BUT NOT BECAUSE OF THIS THREAD!! And certainly not because I believe Catholics aren't Christians (which I never said I believed in the first place).

 

 

(btw, if you are trying to repeatedly leave me neg. rep--it isn't working ;) because you can't leave neg rep or positive rep if you have under a certain amount of posts. It only comes up as neutral. Which means, I know who you are ;) )

[8filltheheart]

Is it true that Catholics see the Pope as "Christ incarnate" on earth - that this is why he is "infallible"?

 

I am assuming now that this is just yet another myth, since no one here has mentioned this.

 

(Please know that momof7 is my dear friend, and I know that Christ lives in her. Since I know these threads upset her, and she may not be back, I decided to ask you instead - but my question is sincerely an effort to remove my own ignorance.)

 

Thanks!

Rhonda

 

Hi Rhonda,

 

I am simply ignoring the rest of the thread. I read a lot.....went and made dinner. Thought about things for a while and decided to respond to one other post and yours (of course I would answer you!!) After this one though.....I'm leaving the thread and not reading anything else.

 

We believe that the Pope is only infallible in making univeral (as in to the entire world) church proclamations pertaining to only faith and morals. In absolutely no other areas are any papal teachings considered infallible. So....if they say something about science (as in Galileo).....they are not binding on the conscience of believers. However, in matters of faith and morals where the Pope declares from the Chair of Peter or if it is in unison with the complete magisterium (this means the Pope and all of the world's bishops).....those pronouncements are binding and are being made through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

Popes are not "infallible" personally in their lives. They are definitely completely human and have all the same sinfulness as the rest of humanity (some more than others!!) It is only in their teaching office and in the scenerios described above that they are considered infallible and their teachings are considered "de fide."

 

If that doesn't help, private message me and I will try to explain it more thoroughly. :)

[Janet in WA]

Well, to be absolutely fair, the Catholic Church doesn't expect any of us non-Catholics to make it to Heaven. In their view, the only way to Heaven is through the one true (Catholic) Church. Non-Catholics might not be the only ones in for a surprise in the afterlife.

[Kelli in TN]

This was a really great thread! And anyway, one was gracious enough to admit holes in her understanding of Catholicism.:)

 

 

I have to agree. I found it fascinating. And big kudos to Anna, momof7, PrairieAir, PariSarah, Pam (and all her letters), Eliana, Plaid Dad, and Staci in Mo. You each made important contributions to the conversation and you did so with grace and humility.

 

I had nothing to say on this topic but I learned a bunch tonight from you amazing, insightful people!!!

[Tutor]

Eliana, I am curious as to why you post Xtianity instead of Christianity. I understand why you type G-d, out of reverence. IMO (and in my ignorance most likely) posting an X instead of Christ seems a bit disrespectful. But maybe you are trying to show respect by typing and X instead. :)

 

I am by no means an expert (so you know my "qualifications" for this assumption, I have asked an Orthodox Jewish acquaintance about this in the past; that's it :)). My understanding is that it is a reverence issue. God, including His name, is to be treated as Holy and not used lightly and not in a manner which can be destroyed (such as being written). Thus, they write an incomplete version. Because the Jewish people are awaiting the Messiah, also called the Christ, the name Christ cannot be written out either because it should be treated with the same reverence as the name God or any other name of God.

 

Eliana, if I have totally butchered this explanation, I am very sorry and ask your forgiveness.

[JFSinIL]

Hello? It is the Protestants that have strayed, ya'know :rolleyes:

We Catholics are the original, "real" Christians ( as my very Catholic in-laws will attest - esp. Sr. Thomas More ).

[PariSarah]

Well, to be absolutely fair, the Catholic Church doesn't expect any of us non-Catholics to make it to Heaven. In their view, the only way to Heaven is through the one true (Catholic) Church.

 

As I said above, the Magisterium has changed this view in part after Vatican II. It's complicated, but the short and over-simplified version is that non-Catholics may make it to heaven. The Church is still the vehicle of salvation, but some people may be riding in the car without knowing it, if you will.

[j.griff]

Ahhh, that makes even more sense, thank you for posting. I didn't realize :o the Jewish reverence for Christ the name (I actually thought the name Christ might be a wee bit offensive to Jewish people, since they don't believe that Jesus was/is The Christ)

 

Still learning...

[Peek a Boo]

wow! what a thread :eek:

 

I do agree that many people --not just Christians ;)-- tend be very judgmental no matter what they profess. I often find myself seeking out a secular group cuz I have beliefs that don't jive w/ many Christian denominations. Yet i approach each secular group w/ a "hm...i wonder just HOW 'inclusive' this one's gonna turn out not to be..."

I can see why many Christians feel "compelled" to judge another's actions [because Scripture TELLS them to], but disagree when they go so far as to judge their faith.

 

I do not agree w/ the Catholic doctrines, but after reading several books and websites on Catholicism wriiten FOR Catholics, I can appreciate that they are working w/in a set standard and that it can easily be misconstrued. I really liked Plaid Dad's post --if you want to know what the Catholic *faith* stands for --go to the source. he pretty much summed up the differences. Same w/ Christianity, Islam, Wicca, or any other religion. But like the thread where the question was asked why people LEFT the Christian faith, a lot of the disagreement boils down to watching how others practice that faith.

 

I refuse to question another's faith. I might question their interpretations, but I will NOT judge their faith w/ God. I cringe when i hear pastors from pulpits preach that another denomination is going to hell. Do i think that 'all roads lead to God"? Not necessarily. But I do believe that the Body of Christ is much bigger than any one denomination or type of Christianity. The body consists of snot, heart, brain, kidneys, kneecaps, toenails, hair, spit, immune system, and pubic hair, to name a few. They each have a pretty specific job, tend to look NOTHING like each other, are entwined in their own systems even, and sometimes even work to the detriment of the other organs [like a fever]. But they are all tied together working for a common purpose.

 

Life.

 

And i absolutely believe that is what happens w/ the denominations out there --they are all trying to work for Life the best way they know how. They each have a specific purpose in God's plan and sometimes they seem to work to each other's detriment. We all have our own gifts and purposes: some of us are born and raised in one system or organ and find out we need to be in another. Some of us are still trying to find an organ or system to belong to. The body is pretty darn complex to navigate....

 

But I do believe that this is the crux of the issue-- many denominations think THEY are the Body of Christ, and the individual members/ separate churches w/in that denomination are the "parts". [in addition to any other denominations that they "approve" to be worthy of being part of the Body of Christ]. It's one reason i refuse seek 'membership' in many churches --i disagree w/ most of their doctrine.

 

anyway, there's my 2 cents :-)

[j.griff]

LOL, no disrespect, I just have this funny image of a drunk man in the "wrong" car, LOL. It reminds me of when my grandpa was going to sit in his car while my grandma was shopping for groceries, he opened the car door and sat down only to realize there was a woman in the passenger seat and he was in the wrong car. The cars were identical though, LOL (and people didn't always lock their vehicles when they got out of them). And I'm NOT saying that The Church is the "wrong car", but just saying that people "riding in the car without knowing it" would think it was, ;)

[Old Dominion Heather]

whoops... I got Cyndi's new board name wrong. It is CynthiaOK

[Storm Bay]

since they don't believe that Jesus was/is The Christ)

 

Still learning...

 

Actually, there was a family on dd's swim team that are Messianic Jews. They practice the Jewish religion, but believe Christ is the saviour, etc. They interpret certain NT verses to mean that they are to remain Jewish even though they believe Jesus is the Messiah. I will say no more, because then it would be second hand!:) All I can say is that the dad and I had some very interesting and fun conversations (no arguing, but discussion.)

[Sugarfoot]

I'll say a few things in the spirit of trying to be helpful to others' understanding:

 

As a Catholic Christian, I have no right to judge another human being.

 

Our priest refers to protestants as "our protestant brothers and sisters."

 

Christ did the only work necessary for our salvation when he died on the cross.

 

I would never assume that any other person of any persuasion was not as much of a child of God as I am. He is all-powerful and omnipotent, and we are all mere mortals, just trying to do the best that we can to follow Him.

 

Catholics don't pray TO the saints. We ask them to pray to God FOR us, just like we would ask any fellow Christian to pray for us. Scott Hahn says it best with the title to one of his books, "Any friend of God's is a friend of mine."

 

Below is the Catholic Profession of Faith. This is what we stand and say every week at Mass. There have been several links posted to various things, but I thought I'd type this here for ease of reading.

 

The Nicene Creed

 

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,

maker of Heaven and Earth,

of all that is seen and unseen.

 

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God.

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made, one in being

with the Father.

Through Him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation,

He came down from Heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he was born of the Virgin Mary,

and became man.

 

For our sake he was crucified

under Pontius Pilate;

He suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day He rose again,

in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

He ascended into heaven,

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead,

and His kingdom will have no end.

 

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord,

the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is

worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the prophets.

 

We believe in one holy catholic

and apostolic church.

We acknowlidge one baptism for the

forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come.

 

Amen.

 

May we all live in the peace that God intends.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

Pam described the derivation (and much more thoroughly that I would have if she hadn't beat me to it - thanks, Pam!)

 

 

 

In the interest of full disclosure, Pam copied and pasted from wikipedia.

 

LOL

[lovemyboys]

That is the response that I always heard also. Of course, I was raised Baptist, so Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, etc. were NOT christian.

 

I'm really surprised. I've heard the statements about Catholics, which I don't agree with, and I do agree with your thoughts that it's a Heart issue. Amen.

 

But, wow, I grew up Episcopalian and have been to Lutheran services. I don't remember much about the Virgin Mary at all, much less worshiping her. It sounds like any number of other protestant denominations were just all lumped together based on mistaken notions. Seriously, I've probably attended services with a dozen different Episcopal ministers and never heard Mary referred to much outside of scripture readings during Advent.

 

I just find it pretty scary that you would have grown up hearing that. But it kind of clarifies some of the opinions about Catholics I've heard expressed in bible studies over the years. It's such a shame that there's such condemning ignorance out there.

 

Again, I totally agree that it's a heart issue, wherever you are. Thanks for sharing your story.

[Janet in WA]

As I said above, the Magisterium has changed this view in part after Vatican II. It's complicated, but the short and over-simplified version is that non-Catholics may make it to heaven. The Church is still the vehicle of salvation, but some people may be riding in the car without knowing it, if you will.

Generous if nebulous. :)

 

But that brings up another difference between Catholics and Protestants where salvation is concerned -- the Catholic Church does not believe that any of us (Catholics included) can be certain of our salvation. Protestants, on the other hand, believe they can know they are saved. When I left the Catholic Church and became a Protestant, that was one of the most difficult adjustments I had to make. And I may still not have made it completely after 30 years.

[Michelle T]

As someone raised Southern Baptist, I can assure you that we were NOT taught that all those religions were not Christians...sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

 

Angela

 

 

I have several inlaws who belong to a large, nondenominational Protestant church, and according to them, all other Christians who do not believe as they do are not really Christian. They were raised Catholic, but now say that most Catholics, including their own parents, are going to hell. They consider all Protestant churches more liberal than their own to be hell bound too.

 

Of course, since I'm Jewish, I'm the most hell bound of all, so I try to ignore them.

Michelle T

[PariSarah]

(And all but the Islamic beliefs would be considered idolatrous/heretical for a Jew to hold, fwiw.)

 

Really?! That's fascinating--I don't think I've ever heard that before. Why Islam but not Xnity?

 

Oh. Duh. The Trinity. Okay, yeah, makes sense.

 

But that's still interesting--is that a majority position within Judaism? Is this across the board--Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox?

[lovemyboys]

The Catholic side will say what you did--that Mary was pretty special and she deserves our worship, while the Christian side says "but you are worshipping the wrong person" and then they fight. ;)

 

Don't mean to nitpick, but Cin was saying that Mary deserved our respect...but not worship. Your quote above changes what Cin said, which may be the issue for much of the mistaken impression (generally) about what Catholics actually do worship.

Sorry to butt in, but I noticed it since you highlighted it in your quote.:o

[Storm Bay]

A Jew is a Jew by birth not faith or works. ;) But the religion they are practicing is not Judaism.

 

By definition, all traditionally observant Jews are messianic (though the term has been co-opted)- we await Moshiach (the Messiah), and we are very clear about how we can tell when he has arrived. (and, to be very clear, Xtians and Jews mean very different things by Moshaich - he is not, in any way to be divine. He will be an ordinary human with a very special job.)

 

So one can say that an individual Jew is a Buddhist, an atheist, a Hindu, a Muslim, or a Xtian, but that doesn't make any of those beliefs valid Jewish theology. (And all but the Islamic beliefs would be considered idolatrous/heretical for a Jew to hold, fwiw.)

 

There is no gray area here.

 

Eliana (finally getting to sound like the fundamentalist my demographic is categorized as ;))

 

Okay, I was paraphrasing what he said. He still called himself Jewish by religious observation and how they practised much of what you have brought up, right down to Hebrew terminology as opposed to English. Now that may not agree with you, and I can't argue this as I just don't know enough about what defines people. They also missed the Saturday swim meets and the Friday evening practices.

[Julpost]

I've read the following article and the reasoning makes sense to me. I'd like to hear a Catholics response. I am not trying to argue or cause dissent. I'm truly searching for the truth. When I was questioning Mormonism, I prayed for the truth and I learned God said in the OT to test a prophets prophesy, if it was false, then he wasn't from God. I found a list of 55 prophesies that were made that never happened. So that was that....no more questions.

 

So now I am searching the truth about the Catholic church. Are there any reasons I'm not seeing, that this article is false?

 

 

http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rc101.htm

[DianaG]

His criticisms of the catholic church are:

 

1. That many of their practices and doctrines are not biblically supported such as praying to saints and praying to Mary for intercession. Much of the Marian doctrine has no bibilical premise.

 

2. The priest's role as intermediary to God, referring to the priest as "Father" (in a spiritual sense), the reverence given to the pope and the doctrine that he is infallible.

 

3. But most of all... the Catholic view of salvation. It is not by grace alone, but by works as well (baptism, confession, communion, etc). Basically, it boils down to a belief that dependence on anything but faith in Christ for salvation is wrong/false. This is the biggie, and while there will always be critics of MArian doctrine, anyone who knows the catholic church knows that they aren't actually worshiping her, and Marian doctrine could be tolerated by non-catholics whereas the works/salvation issue is a tougher obstacle.

 

HTH

[GothicGyrl]

Don't mean to nitpick, but Cin was saying that Mary deserved our respect...but not worship. Your quote above changes what Cin said, which may be the issue for much of the mistaken impression (generally) about what Catholics actually do worship.

Sorry to butt in, but I noticed it since you highlighted it in your quote.:o

 

Alright, I have it now. And it just proves no one really actually reads my posts, they just skim them.

 

What I said was in response to what Cin had said, but not that I was trying to say Cin had said my response--kwim?

 

However, what I didn't do in that post was add a qualifier--I'm so sick of those--but here ya go:

The Catholic side will say what you did, (CIN)--that Mary was pretty special and (qualifier--"that she also") deserves our worship, while the Christian side says "but you are worshipping the wrong person" and then they fight. (qualifier "As I've heard it said to me before by my Catholic family and by my catholic church" )

 

And since I've said those qualifiers throughout this thread, over and over--I did not think I had to keep saying them, over and over again.

 

So no--I did not change Cin's words around and NO I DO NOT misunderstand anything regarding the Catholic faith.

 

QUALIFIER TO INFINITY AND BEYOND--I simply said this is how I've heard it, learned it, seen it done, and practiced it within my own family for a number of years.

[Storm Bay]

Alright, I have it now. And it just proves no one really actually reads my posts, they just skim them.

.

 

:DNo one actually reads your posts? I'll admit, at times I have skimmed, but that was not just limited to your posts and when I was in a hurry. But I've learned my lesson and try to read your posts now.

 

At any rate, I suspect that skimming happens more than many of us might like to admit.

 

Um, what was your post about again?;)

[GothicGyrl]

No one actually reads your posts? I'll admit, at times I have skimmed, but that was not just limited to your posts and when I was in a hurry. But I've learned my lesson and try to read your posts now.

 

At any rate, I suspect that skimming happens more than many of us might like to admit.

 

Um, what was your post about again?

Good.. and don't your forget that lesson either missy. ;)

 

And honestly, I do actually try to read the whole thread. Only once or twice I've skimmed but only because I did not want previous posts clouding whatever I had to say, not because I was picking and choosing. ;)

 

And my post--nothing really. Move along. :)

[lovemyboys]

And that's what I get for logging on and jumping in to a huge thread before I've seen a lot of it...so I haven't waded through and seen the qualifiers. Thanks for your patience.

[Storm Bay]

And that's what I get for logging on and jumping in to a huge thread before I've seen a lot of it...so I haven't waded through and seen the qualifiers. Thanks for your patience.

 

That's where being ill is helpful. I've been on this board way too much today and have read every single post from nearly the beginning with only a few breaks. My chilly fingers can barely type. However, I am now going to shut this PC down for the night as I am way over limit and bound to have lots of crazy dreams from way too much screen time.

[GothicGyrl]

And that's what I get for logging on and jumping in to a huge thread before I've seen a lot of it...so I haven't waded through and seen the qualifiers. Thanks for your patience.

Me? Patience? ;) No honestly, it's fine. I did say it in almost every post, but really it is fine. :)

 

However, I am now going to shut this PC down for the night as I am way over limit and bound to have lots of crazy dreams from way too much screen time.

 

Crazy Dreams rock! And if I shut this thing down now--my dreams will be more than crazy.. I can't go to bed before midnight anyway.. never could.

[Mrs. Readsalot]

I was raised a Lutheran by former Catholic parents in a very Catholic area of Baltimore. The Catholic church or Catholic followers were never spoken ill of in our home. Outside of my home I did often hear that a problem non-Catholic faiths had with the Catholic faith was praying to Mary. That only God and or Jesus should be prayed to and that this is directed in the Bible. I never heard the non-catholic faith thought that Mary was being "worshiped" Although this is just my limited experience. I can also say as a Lutheran I don't feel as though we "revered" Luther. Yes, he had important points to make, as do several, at times, what are often, sadly, considered controversial members of this board. Luther was absolutely controversial in his time. I don't think Luther wanted to be revered he just wanted to make his points. Others rose him to higher prominance that he did himself. I think we should all have the right to state our opinions and thoughts on a matter and I understand that others may have different opinions. I welcome the opportunity to learn from others that are more informed and or educated than myself. In conclusion, I try to live by - do not judge least you be judged. I am not judging anyone here. I am just relating my observations per my upbringing.

Here is an interesting article I found this evening on the web.

http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/questions/2006/p;rayingtomary.html

[PariSarah]

In practice, the most severe prohibitions, for the most part, do not apply, but there are many which do. For example, I may not enter the sanctuary of a Xtian church (not even a Unitarian one, as I found out in a l'maisa, real life practical, situation), but I could enter a mosque as Islam is unequivocally monotheistic *by our definitions* (though, obviously you guys are monotheistic by your definitions:)).

 

Fascinating!

 

I appreciate you typing all that out, Eliana. I learned a lot. I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me that Orthodox Judaism would view Islam this way. Your position on Xnity makes sense (and I knew just a bit about this already), but I hadn't thought about Islam before.

 

Again, thank you.

 

Gosh, now I'm curious about Judaism and Native American "Great Spirit" traditions. But I'll chase all that down myself, someday, I suppose.;)

[PariSarah]

Perhaps you could help me with some of my questions about Xtianity? Assuming we are all still recuperating (and I thus have all this computer time!), I want to post some questions Sunday - these last few threads have raised a lot of questions for me about how things work. And you always say things so clearly (and so much more concisely than I ever manage!)

 

 

Ask away! I hope I can be helpful . . .