The Chosen.

[laughing lioness]

Has anyone else read works by Chaim Potok. What did you think?

[Nissi]

I was totally fascinated with "Chosen". It is one of my favorite books.

[SusanAR]

I was totally fascinated with "Chosen". It is one of my favorite books.

 

:iagree:!!!!

susan ar

[Jenny in Florida]

I love The Chosen. It's one of those books I re-read every couple of years.

 

I've read a lot of other Potok, too, but this one is definitely my favorite.

[EKS]

I love Chaim Potok's stuff. I've read most of it. The Chosen is a fascinating book.

[In The Great White North]

:iagree: I'd forgotten about these. What grade are you using them for?

[jacqui in mo]

I had to read The Chosen as part of a college lit. class. I enjoyed it very much. There is also a movie of it that was very well done. Oh, if I remember right, the author actually came to our campus and spoke. I just now recalled that. Wish I could recall what he talked about. It was many, many years ago.

[Janet in Toronto]

I have read, and love, all his work.

[MamaT]

The Chosen is a favorite here, too! I would highly recommend it.

[Nicole M]

I read the Chosen in college and loved it. I wish I still had my old copy, but I loaned it out and never got it back.

 

I also loved his Night Trilogy:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Night-Trilogy-Dawn-Day/dp/0809073641/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237304198&sr=8-1

[SusanAR]

I want to add that I purchased Sparknotes for this one. They really provide great discussion of things I failed to recognize in my reading-

 

susanar

[Mary in GA]

I read the Chosen right before Christmas. I loved that book! So fascinating and encouraging.

[LaurieinCA]

:iagree:"The Chosen" is also one of my favorites. I have read all of his books. I watched the movie a few months ago with my dss, 9 and 11, and they enjoyed it.

[Spy Car]

I enjoyed The Chosen immensely. Very thought provoking.

 

And gave a glimpse into a Hassidic culture I thought I'd never experience first-hand, but surprisingly have (in it's west-coast version).

 

Bill

[laughing lioness]

I picked it up at a thrift store last week, started it last night, couldn't put it down and am just overwhelmed with how deep and true it felt on so many different levels.

The kids and I did a play on WWII in Jan and the book actually mentions Teresestadt (the concentration camp the play was set in) and that seemed so personal to me at 1 a.m.- lol! I am definitly having my high schoolers read this!

One of my big take-aways is how ingrained academia was in the culture. I realize that we can step it way up around here. I feel infused with a new passion/zeal for what educating my kids really means.

I am sounding really corny, I'm sure. It's so great to know how many of you enjoyed this book.

I'll be looking for the Spark Notes and his other books. :001_smile:

Bill- would you mind sharing the culture that you had experience with?

[Spy Car]

Bill- would you mind sharing the culture that you had experience with?

 

In recent years I've become dear friends with a very nice guy who's own affiliation to Judaism might best be called "Modern Orthodox", but who attends a Chabad-Lubavitch shul (Hassidic).

 

My family has joined his to enjoy many Shabbat (Sabbath) meals, and this past year he brought me in to help him edit videos for the big annual "L'Chaim to Live: Chabad Telethon" which we did out of the Chabad House in Westwood.

 

In the process I got to know many of the wonderful rabbis of Chabad, and had a very rewarding entree into a world I thought I'd only read about in books.

 

Bill

[Nicole M]

Thanks for posting this. I've been thinking lately about books for next year, and Stones from the River was on my list. It would be fascinating to read these two, Stones & The Chosen.

[elegantlion]

The Chosen is one of my favorite books. I read it last year and couldn't put it down either.

[elizabeth]

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=communism+by+pipes

http://www.amazon.com/Gates-November-Chaim-Potok/dp/044991240X/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237313882&sr=1-10

Potok's book is a wonderful account of the plight of the refuseniks. We are using it next year with the excellent text on Communism by Pipes a lecturer in the history dept at Harvard. This is another of those very important events in contemporary history that is overlooked in traditional school settings. Some of the worst human rights violations occurred at the juncture of totalitarianism and anti semitism. It is a timely post and I hope the links are helpful to those who are interested in the subject.

[laughing lioness]

Bill- what a fascinating look into another culture!

Thanks, Elizabeth and others for the links and other book recommendations.

Elizabeth- did you create the course on communism? Are you doing it with your dc or others as well?

[elizabeth]

I always pair philosophy and especially political philosophy with literature and history. We will read the biography of PopeJohn Paul II by Carl Bernstein and a few other books to round out the political part of the picture. On a broader note it is my intent to also align philosophical movement with history for dd. Pope John Paul II fought totalitarian regimes his whole life and backed solidarity as well. His area of expertise philosophically is in the area of phenomenology . There is a strong connection in his thought between the idea of personhood and political and religious freedom. Suffice it to say I know dd's eyes might glaze over when we start discussing phenomenology but she survived Kant so anything is possible . Check back with me next fall and I will let you know how my budding archeologist feels about my grand plans. I always aim high and pray for patience. A great picture book about these issues The Wall by Peter Sis is a great start to begin examining and thinking about totalitarianism . I really love his work.

[laughing lioness]

Wow, Elizabeth! This looks so interesting! I am going to add Pope John Paul II to my reading list!

[Ria]

I *love* that book.

 

Chiam Potok came to my college and gave an extraordinary talk. It was quite an experieince to hear him speak...he was breathtaking. Afterwards I got to meet and talk to him.

 

Ahhhh...wonderful, wonderful memories.

 

Ria

[kewb]

I read that book in college. Absolutely loved it.

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/nov7.html a great little article and book suggestions regarding the life of Pope John Paul II. I think you would find his life experiences under totalitarian and communist rule to be absolutely riveting . Your blog is simply wonderful .

[laughing lioness]

Elizabeth,

Thanks so much for the link & the info! I feel like such a newbie in so many areas! Honestly, I'm going to have to look up some of the terms that you used :001_smile:. Can't wait to find out more about Pope John Paul II and delve into this whole area more.

And thanks for the kind words about my blog. It's been a blast!

Lisa

[Mary in GA]

This thread prompted me to go to the library to look for more of Chaim Potok's books. I brought home The Promise, a sequel to the Chosen. I couldn't put it down! I'm going back through it and rereading some parts I marked for further attention.

 

Mary

[SusanAR]

This thread prompted me to go to the library to look for more of Chaim Potok's books. I brought home The Promise, a sequel to the Chosen. I couldn't put it down! I'm going back through it and rereading some parts I marked for further attention.

 

Mary

 

Yes, after I read the Chosen, I had to know what transpired, so I drove an hour to the nearest B& N just to get it.:D

Now after reading this thread, I think I'll take off to B&N tomorrow to purchase the Gates of November so I can read it next week during Spring Break-(hooray for Spring Break!)

SusanAR

[Mary in GA]

Yes, after I read the Chosen, I had to know what transpired, so I drove an hour to the nearest B& N just to get it.:D

Now after reading this thread, I think I'll take off to B&N tomorrow to purchase the Gates of November so I can read it next week during Spring Break-(hooray for Spring Break!)

SusanAR

 

I'm going to have to buy The Promise, too; it's a keeper. I was thinking of checking out The Book of Lights next because of where we are in history study. When I get a chance, I'll have to back up and read The Gates of November and a few of the other recommendations in this thread. Happy reading!

 

Mary

[Spy Car]

On the side conversation, I'd have to strike a cautionary note when approaching Richard Pipes. I'm a life-long foe of totalitarian communism, so I don't shrink from the crimes of communist regimes being painted in bold colors.

 

That said, the intensity and uncompromising ideology of Richard Pipes anti-communism at times blinded his judgement. He opposed detente during the Gorbachev/Reagan years believing communist regimes could not reform themselves (or self-expire).

 

Pipes also, under the banner of "anti-communism" supported right wing coups and military dictatorships, which perpetrated serious human rights crimes of their own.

 

One does need to ask oneself how far we go in adopting the "enemy of our enemy as our friend" approach to foreign policy. Especially when our friend-of-convenience runs death-squad militias, torture-centers, and the like.

 

I had a room-mate from Chile, who was an air traffic controller during the Pinochet regime (a right-wing general who came to power in a bloody coup supported by the United States which overthrew a democratically elected president) until the government started loading planes with political dissidents, flying out to sea, and returning empty. Richard Pipes supported this regime, and many other right-wing regimes that were guilty of similar crimes.

 

So one must be careful to get a "full picture." And to not lose ones moral center in opposing one thing with such fervor, that you help advance another kind of evil. Or, to at least pose the question, is it better to support one kind of evil over another? And whether (or not) there good reasons, and wise judgements made in the various cases of the past when we have made common cause with "bad-guys"?

 

But Richard Pipes will not give you that. So some "counter-programming" of Pipes would be in order as far as I'm concerned to get a balanced picture.

 

As to John Paul II, I think that the role of his pontificate in undermining the Soviet Union, while it's hardly been ignored, has been greatly underestimated. But I think that will change as our era moves into "history," and his role will rise in the telling. And rightfully so.

 

But the Holy Father, not unlike Richard Pipes, could be very tough on priests in Latin America who affiliated themselves with "liberation theology" fearing Marxist influences, but he didn't show the same moral resolve in reigning in priests who aided and abetted regimes on the totalitarian right.

 

And the Pontiff's voice was not forceful in condemning the crimes of the right-wing regimes of Latin America, where his moral standing could have played an important role in these largely Catholic nations.

 

So things are complicated.

 

Bill

Edited March 19, 2009 by Spy Car

[laughing lioness]

Bill, I appreciate your post! I am such a grammar stage government/poitical learner it's embarassing. I so appreciate what you have to share. Things are often more than they first appear. I am going to print off several of the posts here.

And tomorrow off to B & N to pick up another Potok book, or 2!:001_smile:

[elizabeth]

On the side conversation, I'd have to strike a cautionary note when approaching Richard Pipes. I'm a life-long foe of totalitarian communism, so I don't shrink from the crimes of communist regimes being painted in bold colors.

 

That said, the intensity and uncompromising ideology of Richard Pipes anti-communism at times blinded his judgement. He opposed detente during the Gorbachev/Reagan years believing communist regimes could not reform themselves (or self-expire).

 

Pipes also, under the banner of "anti-communism" supported right wing coups and military dictatorships, which perpetrated serious human rights crimes of their own.

 

One does need to ask oneself how far we go in adopting the "enemy of our enemy as our friend" approach to foreign policy. Especially when our friend-of-convenience runs death-squad militias, torture-centers, and the like.

 

I had a room-mate from Chile, who was an air traffic controller during the Pinochet regime (a right-wing general who came to power in a bloody coup supported by the United States which overthrew a democratically elected president) until the government started loading planes with political dissidents, flying out to sea, and returning empty. Richard Pipes supported this regime, and many other right-wing regimes that were guilty of similar crimes.

 

So one must be careful to get a "full picture." And to not lose ones moral center in opposing one thing with such fervor, that you help advance another kind of evil. Or, to at least pose the question, is it better to support one kind of evil over another? And whether (or not) there good reasons, and wise judgements made in the various cases of the past when we have made common cause with "bad-guys"?

 

But Richard Pipes will not give you that. So some "counter-programming" of Pipes would be in order as far as I'm concerned to get a balanced picture.

 

As to John Paul II, I think that the role of his pontificate in undermining the Soviet Union, while it's hardly been ignored, has been greatly underestimated. But I think that will change as our era moves into "history," and his role will rise in the telling. And rightfully so.

 

But the Holy Father, not unlike Richard Pipes, could be very tough on priests in Latin America who affiliated themselves with "liberation theology" fearing Marxist influences, but he didn't show the same moral resolve in reigning in priests who aided and abetted regimes on the totalitarian right.

 

And the Pontiff's voice was not forceful in condemning the crimes of the right-wing regimes of Latin America, where his moral standing could have played an important role in these largely Catholic nations.

 

So things are complicated.

 

Bill

This is such a phenomenal post I am saving it. You very aptly describe the criticisms I share regarding the support of absolutely reprehensible regimes while in the same breath condemning communism as we have witnessed so many times from Pope John Paul II. It is however obvious that he was a product of his time and as such spoke forcefully against human rights violations especially in his encylical on the value of human labor. That is something else altogether.Please if at all possible share a title that would balance Richard Pipes for next year . I really enjoyed it for its brevity and clarity and the final chapter regarding Allende/Pinochet certainly lacks an impression of the horror of Pinochet. Suggestions for balance are absolutely welcome as the fine line, the grey area, is where I am most comfortable. Great post and I am cribbing some of your ideas for discussions regarding the ethics of our government involvement with bringing down one regime of horror to see another in its place even more reprehensible. Our involvement years ago in Afghanistan supporting the mujhadeen(sp?) certainly comes to mind... For me it really comes back to the old question -are we really behaving as " my brothers keeper"? Great discussion and food for thought.

[Spy Car]

Thank you Elizabeth and Lisa, you've made me blush :blush:

 

And you've also managed to ask the question I dreaded most, what to "counter-program" with? :D

 

And this is a tough one.

 

Let me back-track. I'm going to date myself here, but during the late 70's-early 80's when Latin America was in upheaval, I was a young undergraduate studying International Relations and Political Science at the University of California at Berkeley.

 

So this period was lived and breathed in a "hot-house" environment in a time of great foment around the world. And I was absolutely consumed with the goings-on around the world, from the US-Soviet relationship, the rise of China, the Shah and the Iranian Revolution, the Arab-Israel conflict, Lebanon, and Latin America.

 

I guess I've always, since early childhood, been really interested in foreign affairs, and I naturally "counter-program." I literally can't read anything with out being: "we'll what about this and what about that?"

 

And during the time at Cal I also took care to read from "the right" to give myself balance to the fashionable critiques coming from left-wing authors like Noam Comsky, Alexander Cockburn, or Christopher Hitchen (before he went "neo-con) and a great many others from the left."

 

And believe me, I would have loved to have sat some of my fellow classmates down with a Richard Pipes, or Alexander Solzhenitsyn, because the left could be more blind (can you be more blind? :tongue_smilie:) than the right sometimes. I digress.

 

I guess what I'm saying is this period was contemporary epoch for me, but I'm struggling to come with with just the right work(s) to look at this period retrospectively. Especially a work that is "balanced, because so many books of the era are simply not. But I will keep my thinking cap on.

 

One problem is "how do you counter-program"? Do you counter the errors of the right with devastating critiques from the left, which may contain useful truths (as does Richard Pipes) but may be blind to its own coziness with totalitarians?

 

Or does one only seek "balanced" (but sometimes unprovokative) points of view?

 

Dealing with bias in books difficult, especially when the reader is relatively uninformed, and the author has an agenda. Passions and moral indignation are easily ignited, keeping ones head and looking at affairs in a dispassionate way is often far more difficult.

 

The bottom-line is I'm failing to come up with a brilliant suggestion, and I'm trying to cover myself with a lot of verbiage. And it is driving me crazy because I feel like I should have some great answers, but I need to think.

 

Bill (who's brain is aching :tongue_smilie:)

Edited March 20, 2009 by Spy Car

[laughing lioness]

The thirst for a higher set of ideals is highly respectable and to be greatly admired. It's confusing to find the source of ideals and value and their manifestation in people. I think that's part of what I loved about The Chosen. It's a community of deep faith pursuing the source of those ideals and creating confining situations as a result that others must then deal with and create something of value from. The value is found in what is pursued, not simply in the pursuit itself. We've all fallen short in living our ideals and in creating something better for others. It's the nature of human beings to be tragic, the choice in life is to either reconcile ourselves to that absurdity or to receive a higher reality. How quickly the political jumps to the theological :001_smile:.

[Nicole M]

I read the Chosen in college and loved it. I wish I still had my old copy, but I loaned it out and never got it back.

 

I also loved his Night Trilogy:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Night-Trilogy-Dawn-Day/dp/0809073641/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237304198&sr=8-1

 

Oh, sweet heavenly day! Why didn't you people tell me I was all messed up with my authors here! This is so mortifying. I'm so sorry. Will I be kicked off the boards now, for this idiocy?

[laughing lioness]

Of course not! Grace abounds!

[Spy Car]

I was inspired to read My Name is Asher Lev last night. It's a beautiful book.

 

Although Chaim Potok uses the term "Ladover" in the novel the Hassidic group is clearly based on the Chabad-Lubavitch movement, and the Rebbe on the greatly beloved late Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneersohn.

 

This work will haunt me for some time.

 

Bill

[laughing lioness]

I'm reading this one next. I'm taking a group of highschoolers to an LI workshop this week-end so I'll have a hotel room and no littles around :001_smile:. Thanks for the review!

[Spy Car]

I just finished the sequel, The Gift of Asher Lev, which even more than most sequels feels like Part II of one large novel.

 

I loved these books.

 

Bill (who isn't Jewish, but has a Jewish part of his soul)

[SusanAR]

Wednesday morning I finished In the Beginning. It was OK, I didn't enjoy it as much as I did The Chosen or The Promise. I felt as though the same thing kept happening over and over again. I grew tired of his injuring himself repeatedly though I'm assuming this was a picture of the Jewish people.

 

 

SusanAR

.